Comparison of chinese "replica" and genuine specialized

letape

Interesting article on velonews comparing a US700 knock-off with the real thing. Buyer had been given the usual assurances that the frame was effectively the same and had come from the same mold etc...

http://velonews.competitor.com/not-all-frames-are-created-equal-a-look-deep-inside-the-carbon-in-counterfeit-bikes

If I had a limit on how much I had to spend on a new frame I would be looking at ribble or some lower priced frames from a reputable manufacturer rather than one of these.

Lumen

A more sympathetic reading would be:

Fake frame has crappy headset which causes speed wobble and has more compliant tubing.

I don't see any safety problem other than the headset play.

AstraMonti

I would be 100% happy to buy a chinese frame from a reputable source.

Lusk_Doyle

Lumen wrote: »

A more sympathetic reading would be:

Fake frame has crappy headset which causes speed wobble and has more compliant tubing.

I don't see any safety problem other than the headset play.

"I wholeheartedly endorse this product" Lumen was heard to say...

Lumen

Also, the emphasis on "chinese" is a bit rich given that Specialized frames are also made in China.

letape

Lumen wrote: »

A more sympathetic reading would be:

Fake frame has crappy headset which causes speed wobble and has more compliant tubing.

I don't see any safety problem other than the headset play.

There is no way of knowing whether the handling problems were caused by the cheap headset cups or by some other frame characteristic.

Ultimately the buyer didn't know what he was getting and that would be my concern.

ford2600

letape wrote: »

There is no way of knowing whether the handling problems were caused by the cheap headset cups or by some other frame characteristic or that buyer was a triathlete.

Ultimately the buyer didn't know what he was getting and that would be my concern.

FYP


More compliant? That's an understatement

Similar sample with a tensile modulus of 40 versus 8.97?

oakley2097

When you can get a cube agree in carbon with full 105 for €1300 and cube guaranteeing the quality why would you by something of unknown origin to save a few pennies

If you don't have the cash for an sworks, buy a lower end model from a trusted brand

Yeah for flexy road frames; instability during turn in just what you need to go fast.

letape

oakley2097 wrote: »

When you can get a cube agree in carbon with full 105 for €1300 and cube guaranteeing the quality why would you by something of unknown origin to save a few pennies

If you don't have the cash for an sworks, buy a lower end model from a trusted brand

Yeah for flexy road frames; instability during turn in just what you need to go fast.

The only reason you would is if you wanted a bike that appeared to be a Pinarello or a specialized or whatever.

sconhome

letape wrote: »

Buyer had been given the usual assurances that the frame was effectively the same and had come from the same mold etc...

Nearly all carbon frames come from one of four big factories in China. It is possible that the moulds used in the replica models are the same as a branded production model but the carbon layups will not be the same and this is where the cost savings are being made.

A less complex layup with less mixed strand sizes or orientation will be quicker and cheaper to produce but will not have the same structural integrity of the production models 'from the same mould'. Visually they may be the same, but structurally completely different.

laraghrider

letape wrote: »

The only reason you would is if you wanted a bike that appeared to be a Pinarello or a specialized or whatever.

This is something I'll never understand. I understand not everyone can afford a Pinarello Dogma (myself included here) but why on earth would you want to by a fake one? Why not use your 1500 or whatever and buy a planet x or a Canyon or something. Who on earth cares what bike you are riding.

AstraMonti

There are a lot of decent open mould frames out there which are not a replica. As always is a matter of choice what you select.

nak

Lumen wrote: »

Also, the emphasis on "chinese" is a bit rich given that Specialized frames are also made in China.

My Specialized frames were made in Taiwan.

My husband got a frame from Hong Fu and loved it. Have 2 sets of carbon rims from Yishun and they have been brilliant too.

Koobcam

This Velonews article specifically deals with the issue of fake frames-it compares a fake s-works (made to look like a real one) with the genuine article. I think it is reasonable in drawing the conclusion that the real version is vastly superior to and much safer than the fake. This does NOT mean that Chinese carbon frames are to be avoided at all costs. Rather, I think it is suggesting that you stay away from cheap fake versions of the real thing. It is possible to buy a carbon frame in China at a low price which is of excellent quality and perfectly safe to ride, and indeed I've seen plenty of great examples, but if you see a Pinarello Dogma selling for €500, use your common sense and steer well clear.

Lumen

nak wrote: »

My Specialized frames were made in Taiwan.

Taiwan is in China, for certain interpretations of "Taiwan", "China", and "in".

Lumen

letape wrote: »

There is no way of knowing whether the handling problems were caused by the cheap headset cups or by some other frame characteristic.

What frame characteristic causes speed wobbles?

letape wrote: »

Ultimately the buyer didn't know what he was getting and that would be my concern.

The buyer knew he was getting a fake Specialized.

Why anyone would want a fake Specialized I have no idea. It's like wanting a fake STD.

magicbastarder

'i want a specialized, but i don't like the company enough to reward them with my money', maybe?

Lusk_Doyle

Lumen wrote: »

Taiwan is in China, for certain interpretations of "Taiwan", "China", and "in".

You probably still think you are in the commonwealth while here too so!

Idleater

Lumen wrote: »

What frame characteristic causes speed wobbles?

Did you not say you noticed poor handling when your ti frame was broken?

saccades

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

You probably still think you are in the commonwealth while here too so!

Peoples republic of china (the big one, aka china in the west), considers taiwan as a province that has to return to the fold so to speak.

the republic of china (the little one, aka taiwan in the west) thinks it's whats left of the "true" china from back before the communist regime when they lost the civil war.

2 diametrically opposed viewpoints, so the statement is correct.


Ireland in 48? declared itself to be a republic and in 49? britain acknowledged this in their law, classed you as not part of the remains of the empire and ireland is not in the commonweath.

Both in agreement.

rayzerp

Have a Deng fu Chinese frame built up as my winter/spare bike. Ride quality is on the harsh side but it's light ,stiff ,looks great And is probably the best handling bike I have ever ridden....For what I paid for it I can't fault it. That said I did a lot of research before buying and have no doubt there are lemons out there

detones

Lumen wrote: »

What frame characteristic causes speed wobbles?

Maybe poor natural frequency characteristics?

terrydel

laraghrider wrote: »

This is something I'll never understand. I understand not everyone can afford a Pinarello Dogma (myself included here) but why on earth would you want to by a fake one? Why not use your 1500 or whatever and buy a planet x or a Canyon or something. Who on earth cares what bike you are riding.

I'd say a huge amount of people care about what they are riding, given that the vast majority these days have bikes that are way beyond their abilities. And the amount of people who have opinions on the bikes of others is shocking too.

pelevin

I once bought a fancy BMW car . . . well I say BMW but a fake one you understand as the real ones would be well out of my price range. I assumed it would have been made out of the same, you know, bits as the real ones, but how wrong I was. The whole episode was a disaster from start to finish. They led me up the garden path with all their talk of, as I said, "the same bits". I'd strongly advise anyone against going down that path - it's a false economy & potentially downright dangerous and even life-threatening - though tobh were I in the same situation I'd do it all again.

Lumen

Idleater wrote: »

Did you not say you noticed poor handling when your ti frame was broken?

Yes, but it was cracked at the headtube creating something very similar to play in the headset reported here.

I don't think non cracked frames vibrate anywhere near the frequency required to generate speed wobble.

Quigs Snr

pelevin wrote: »

I once bought a fancy BMW car . . . well I say BMW but a fake one you understand as the real ones would be well out of my price range. I assumed it would have been made out of the same, you know, bits as the real ones, but how wrong I was. The whole episode was a disaster from start to finish. They led me up the garden path with all their talk of, as I said, "the same bits". I'd strongly advise anyone against going down that path - it's a false economy & potentially downright dangerous and even life-threatening - though tobh were I in the same situation I'd do it all again.

... so you bought a 1-series or the X3 then ?

pelevin

Quigs Snr wrote: »

... so you bought a 1-series or the X3 then ?

Well all I can say is it came with a free trailer.

Idleater

Lumen wrote: »

Yes, but it was cracked at the headtube creating something very similar to play in the headset reported here.

I don't think non cracked frames vibrate anywhere near the frequency required to generate speed wobble.

Agreed, though I just answered the how can a frame... question.

Interesting one from my motorbike days, you know those series of repeated thickly painted yellow lines at off ramps for example? Well depending on the motorbike/suspension setup, you can bottom out the suspension and severely impact cornering and breaking because the suspension compresses repeatedly but doesn't have a chance to rebound.

Just a random side effect of something completely outside the scope of what could be considered generally. Hence not beyond the realms of possibility that a random fake frame out of a fake production run may exhibit a weakness at the headset as a contributing factor to a speed wobble.

I agreed with the sentiment though that what is the point in buying a fake frame instead of the assumed quality control that even comes with a standard production run of an open mould frame.

laraghrider

terrydel wrote: »

I'd say a huge amount of people care about what they are riding, given that the vast majority these days have bikes that are way beyond their abilities. And the amount of people who have opinions on the bikes of others is shocking too.

Oh I totally agree with you. Just saying I'll never understand it. 1500 buys you a fantastic bike and really, you're not pro so you don't need that 5000 pinarello anyway so why in the hell look for a fake one. Bizarre stuff altogether.

Harrybelafonte

laraghrider wrote: »

Oh I totally agree with you. Just saying I'll never understand it. 1500 buys you a fantastic bike and really, you're not pro so you don't need that 5000 pinarello anyway so why in the hell look for a fake one. Bizarre stuff altogether.

Luckily I can pretty much spend my money any ****in way I like.

Idleater

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Luckily I can pretty much spend my money any ****in way I like.

. <- point. ->. You

Iirc the point of the thread isn't how anyone dictates that you choose to spend your money, rather that there may be unintended concequences in believing that the identical product is being purchased.

Harrybelafonte

laraghrider wrote: »

Oh I totally agree with you. Just saying I'll never understand it. 1500 buys you a fantastic bike and really, you're not pro so you don't need that 5000 pinarello anyway so why in the hell look for a fake one. Bizarre stuff altogether.

Idleater wrote: »

. <- point. ->. You

Iirc the point of the thread isn't how anyone dictates that you choose to spend your money, rather that there may be unintended concequences in believing that the identical product is being purchased.

. <- point. ->. You

laraghrider

I never said how you should or shouldn't spend your money. I simply said you don't need a bike like that anyway, difference of course if you actually want one. It's the buying of the fake one that I said I find simply bizarre.

Harrybelafonte

laraghrider wrote: »

I never said how you should or shouldn't spend your money. I simply said you don't need a bike like that anyway so why on earth look for a fake one. Simply implying that I find it bizarre. In a similar way I'd say you don't need drugs but if you want to spend you're money on them go ahead, I'll never understand it though.

This is the fundamental issue with this whole debate. I choose what I need and want. Who are you or anyone else on this thread to decide what anyone else needs. You're not implying anything about it bizarre, you outright said "you're not pro so you don't need that 5000 pinarello".

These are concerns for safety, this is a judgement call on how others spend their money, which, beyond possible issues of trademark infringements etc, is no-one else's business.

niceonetom

Generic you.

Harrybelafonte

niceonetom wrote: »

Generic you.

Is this in reference to a mistaken personal offence taken by me?

Lumen

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Is this in reference to a mistaken personal offence taken by me?

No, by us. Or maybe them.

niceonetom

By one.

Harrybelafonte

Just to be clear, one has not taken offence at said statement regarding whether one "needs" a €5000 Pinarello, one was simply using oneself as an example to personalise the issue so as to make it more pertinent. One understands the concept of the impersonal, but felt that it was high time the permeating, uninformed anti-Chinese import snobbery ended.

pelevin

I think you're all a bunch of bolloxes anyway.

lennymc

magicbastarder

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

more pertinent. One understands the concept of the impersonal, but felt that it was high time the permeating, uninformed anti-Chinese import snobbery ended.

it's not the chinese import issue people appear to be objecting to - it's the counterfeit aspect of buying a fake frame.

i wonder if you brought one of these into cycleways to be repaired, would they smash it with a hammer, the same way i hear weirs do if you bring a fake rolex in to them?

Harrybelafonte

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's not the chinese import issue people appear to be objecting to - it's the counterfeit aspect of buying a fake frame.

i wonder if you brought one of these into cycleways to be repaired, would they smash it with a hammer, the same way i hear weirs do if you bring a fake rolex in to them?

No, they wouldn't.

pelevin

I presume fake Pinarellos, Specializeds, etc have to be illegal so it does seem slightly odd people arguing about their right to buy whatever they like, regardless of its legality. It doesn't seem a whole lot removed from someone arguing the right here to buy stolen bikes 'because it's my money & I'll spend it however I like.'

laraghrider

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

felt that it was high time the permeating, uninformed anti-Chinese import snobbery ended.

But nobody is complaining about chinese import's. I ride a velobuild and it's a bloody fantastic bike. I know some on here ride hong fu and some other brands and sing their praises. Nobody has an issue about chinese import and it's certainly not snobbery. The issue throughout this thread is with fake counterfeit goods imports.

Lumen

pelevin wrote: »

I presume fake Pinarellos, Specializeds, etc have to be illegal so it does seem slightly odd people arguing about their right to buy whatever they like, regardless of its legality. It doesn't seem a whole lot removed from someone arguing the right here to buy stolen bikes 'because it's my money & I'll spend it however I like.'

Copyright violation is not theft since the owner has not been deprived of the use of the thing.

For instance I can take a picture of your child in a public place and that's sort of OK (though possibly weird/disturbing, like a fake Pinarello), whereas if I take the child away then it's not really OK at all.

letape

Lumen wrote: »

Copyright violation is not theft since the owner has not been deprived of the use of the thing.

For instance I can take a picture of your child in a public place and that's sort of OK (though possibly weird/disturbing, like a fake Pinarello), whereas if I take the child away then it's not really OK at all.

Copyright violation is a crime and penalties are enforced where it is proven.

Anyway in the initial article I would have thought that creating a replica of a specialized is beyond copyright violation as the frame was also branded as a specialized.

It's the same as the fake Rolex example, as mentioned above.

lennymc

Specialized are normally very good at protecting their copyright - like that time they tried to sue a cafe owner for naming his Cafe after a French town

Lusk_Doyle

saccades wrote: »

Peoples republic of china (the big one, aka china in the west), considers taiwan as a province that has to return to the fold so to speak.

the republic of china (the little one, aka taiwan in the west) thinks it's whats left of the "true" china from back before the communist regime when they lost the civil war.

2 diametrically opposed viewpoints, so the statement is correct.


Ireland in 48? declared itself to be a republic and in 49? britain acknowledged this in their law, classed you as not part of the remains of the empire and ireland is not in the commonweath.

Both in agreement.

Yea I can do a wiki search too. I was being facaetious.

lennymc

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Yea I can do a wiki search too.

but you didnt.

Lusk_Doyle

Lumen wrote: »

Copyright violation is not theft since the owner has not been deprived of the use of the thing.

For instance I can take a picture of your child in a public place and that's sort of OK (though possibly weird/disturbing, like a fake Pinarello), whereas if I take the child away then it's not really OK at all.

How does one copyright a child?