Lisduff dandy a bluff

kay 9

Ai technician told us this morning that he's pulled out of work due to his dam having no papers and he's not what they thought he was. He's been used alot, will farmers get any compensation for this buck up? Good calves out of him though but always thought he was very muscular for an aa

Arrow in the Knee

kay 9 wrote: »

Ai technician told us this morning that he's pulled out of work due to his dam having no papers and he's not what they thought he was. He's been used alot, will farmers get any compensation for this buck up? Good calves out of him though but always thought he was very muscular for an aa

From what I am getting is that maybe his dam is a Black Limousin and he was chancing his arm by registering it as a PB AA.

Would the AA society penalise the Breeder for falsely registering him?

votuvant

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/angus-bull-makes-top-price-at-tully-26011544.html

It seems he was the top performer ever in Tully for an AA at the time. Nice to know that ICBF were on the ball. It gives great confidence that the suckler herd is safe hands.

What happens to the calf ratings now?

wiggy123

when this come out?? not good this for the breed

kay 9

I bet it's the first of many. Interesting. Good bull, but not nice if lads used him for the new suckler scheme

tanko

I wonder did any of his calves have horns. I was dehorning a few calves yesterday and two calves who are only 6% angus had no horns, it's funny how the polled gene works.

frazzledhome

This is the elephant in the room for all breed societies. The amount of pomp and none sense involved in the scene will finally be exposed.

DNA testing will create some casualties.
As a dairy farmer I see this as a big issue, visited a large Hol breeder days ago with 3 bulls running with cows. I asked if these calves would be PB or PBNR.

PB of course he says, how will you know one from the other his reply was classic, a good stock man will know one from the other. I said he's full of shyte and he then said he always genotype. :)

kay 9

tanko wrote: »

I wonder did any of his calves have horns. I was dehorning a few calves yesterday and two calves who are only 6% angus had no horns, it's funny how the polled gene works.

Awaiting a calf from him next month out of an aa cow so shouldn't have horns. If you use an aa bull across any breed they should be polled so if not then dandy is dandable. Doesn't bother us as we're commercial breeders and didnt even bother with the suckler scheme but I feel for the lads that required 4/5 star bulls and used this lad.

kay 9

wiggy123 wrote: »

when this come out?? not good this for the breed

Only heard it this morning. Asked for dandy or tql for a heifer and was surprised

Mad4simmental

They had a dispersal sale last year. Did they clear the full herd?

wiggy123

that's bad--he was a muscley bull..so dovea not selling him now??

wiggy123

you sure.. were told that.. from my checking through icbf-- all is 100% pure.. also same on the Aberdeen angus database

kay 9

Mad4simmental wrote: »

They had a dispersal sale last year. Did they clear the full herd?

Don't know simmental tbh

kay 9

wiggy123 wrote: »

that's bad--he was a muscley bull..so dovea not selling him now??

Apparently not wiggy.

kay 9

wiggy123 wrote: »

you sure.. were told that.. from my checking through icbf-- all is 100% pure.. also same on the Aberdeen angus database

That's what I was told this morning. Wanted to use him on a heifer but was given the bad news. There was Smth about the dam being flushed as well but didn't pick up on it.

blue5000

Used him here as well, never noticed anything wrong, can we get our ai fees back from dovea?

whelan2

blue5000 wrote: »

Used him here as well, never noticed anything wrong, can we get our ai fees back from dovea?

will dovea get the price back they paid for him:D, seriously though why did it take this long to find out

blue5000

https://webapp.icbf.com/bull-search/view/744460411

He's still up on icbf bull search for anyone that wants a last look. The breeder is very well known, I'd say anybody who bought a bull there in the last few years will be scratching their heads.

Bellview

Mad4simmental wrote: »

They had a dispersal sale last year. Did they clear the full herd?

the herd is still in business... selling bulls in Tipperary each year

tanko

I can see why pedigree breeders would be annoyed if this is true, but the best cows I have here are off a limousin x charolais bull I used one year. He was a better bull than several Ai Bulls I have used. The bull being talked about here sounds like a great bull for commercial use.

Bellview

tomieen jones wrote: »

As regards registering pbr cattle all along has been fairly on the word of the breeder! !even a straw that didn't take could be serviced by the bull also and sure who was to know before genomic testing! ! If There was dna from old ai bulls still on record could breeders now be sweating in fear of being exposed and what would be the penalties

Irish angus were DNA all bull calves for past two/three years and ironically ICBF pulled out of the program at the start of 2015. The reason I assume ICBF pulled out was over their suckler scheme

unfortunately as there were two societies registering cattle in the country the UK affiliated Soc were not doing the same DNA program... there was a bull purchased by the ICBF maternal program whose sire was reqistered as Rossiter and when DNA was completed he was found to be Busullow Elmark. This calf was a ET flush... would be interesting were the females checked...and also the bull has not yet appeared in the program... must be his 7% calving difficulty

Bellview

kay 9 wrote: »

That's what I was told this morning. Wanted to use him on a heifer but was given the bad news. There was Smth about the dam being flushed as well but didn't pick up on it.

I think the dam was registered incorrectly. she was registered as a cruz but is off another ped registered bull.

whelan2

http://ow.ly/P2i0I

cattlelegend

kay 9 wrote: »

Ai technician told us this morning that he's pulled out of work due to his dam having no papers and he's not what they thought he was. He's been used alot, will farmers get any compensation for this buck up? Good calves out of him though but always thought he was very muscular for an aa

Sorry to upset your party here but Lisduff Dandy (ZFL) IS A FULL PEDIGREE . His full parentage is available on icbf

cattlelegend

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

From what I am getting is that maybe his dam is a Black Limousin and he was chancing his arm by registering it as a PB AA.

Would the AA society penalise the Breeder for falsely registering him?

Would love to know where your information regarding black limousin is coming from

Genghis Cant

cattlelegend wrote: »

Sorry to upset your party here but Lisduff Dandy (ZFL) IS A FULL PEDIGREE . His full parentage is available on icbf

Welcome to boards. You missed the party. It's over much earlier. Pity you didn't put us out of our misery yesterday.

Andy Gray

That article is dated May 2007. ZFL was born in Jan 2010. Different animal altogether. Presume that bull has been long parentage verified. If there was a problem with his parentage I'd imagine he'd have been pulled long ago.

wiggy123

from what I gather.. bull is ok... 100% pedigree... has dovea announced it...re him,not being full angus??

cattlelegend

wiggy123 wrote: »

from what I gather.. bull is ok... 100% pedigree... has dovea announced it...re him,not being full angus??

Can you clarify your question please

wiggy123

has dovea announced re to ai techicans, not to use this bull, or its customers not to use him??

cattlelegend

wiggy123 wrote: »

has dovea announced re to ai techicans, not to use this bull, or its customers not to use him??

The bull is freely available, Bull is 100%Angus and there is no issue with using him. Maybe the AI man just hadn't got him yesterday morning

wiggy123

ok..am not having probs with bull--just following up--previous folks comments......have u used him??

cattlelegend

wiggy123 wrote: »

ok..am not having probs with bull--just following up--previous folks comments......have u used him??

Super calves best black bull I've ever used. Confirmation length and style

wiggy123

good to hear good reports re him.... long may u continue him/u use him for purebred stock?

Bellview

wiggy123 wrote: »

good to hear good reports re him.... long may u continue him/u use him for purebred stock?

Good calves but tough calvers bit like jumbo king and dairy folks not rushing to buy their sons this year.

tanko

Bellview wrote: »

Good calves but tough calvers bit like jumbo king and dairy folks not rushing to buy their sons this year.

I can see why dairy farmers prefer easier calved Angus Bulls but surely there is a place for Angus Bulls which suit the suckler herd also.

Bulls like GJB, ZFL and BJG would be ideal Angus Bulls to use on continental suckler cows to improve maternal traits imo. The beef genomics scheme should be good news for the AA breed.

Bellview

tanko wrote: »

I can see why dairy farmers prefer easier calved Angus Bulls but surely there is a place for Angus Bulls which suit the suckler herd also.

Bulls like GJB, ZFL and BJG would be ideal Angus Bulls to use on continental suckler cows to improve maternal traits imo. The beef genomics scheme should be good news for the AA breed.

Definitely a place for the tougher calvers but from breeders side the market for bulls is dairy esp in munster. In my case over past 3 years only 2 bulls went to ped or suckler farmers

The genomic scheme is ironically irrelevant to breeding ped if your market is the dairy man as you could have a 2 star aa bull cross him with a dairy heifer and her daughter will prob be a 5 star replacement for beef due to milk. The genomics scheme will IMO drive bloodlines too narrow and probably into tougher calving bloodlines which goes against the breed traits

I was at sales this year where jumbo kings made 400 less than comparable type bulls due to calving.

kay 9

So is he definitely legitimate and still available? Few other lads around here were told the same thing as us. "that there's a problem with his pedigree and he's pulled from use". I don't care about his papers tbh, he produces good stuff.

Bellview

kay 9 wrote: »

So is he definitely legitimate and still available? Few other lads around here were told the same thing as us. "that there's a problem with his pedigree and he's pulled from use". I don't care about his papers tbh, he produces good stuff.

He is Dovea have confirmed he is. sounds like AI guy got wires crossed. His pedigree is 100% angus... not cruz though (which IMO is an advantage)

wiggy123

cruz not 100%%

wiggy123

angus bull--required by a dairy person.. is easy calving/short gestation..all they care about is the cow/heifer's milk in the tank.. that's were the money is.. calf is there ok-sell it on etc...

unsure if new scheme will help the breed greatly.. to me it will shorten the gene pool... bad thing for the breed

tanko

wiggy123 wrote: »

cruz not 100%%

Are you saying he's not 100% Angus? What is he then?

wiggy123

sorry tanko.. was asking is that what bellview was saying? re that cruz bull.. he was a powerful/muscley bull.. thought had the myostatin gene

tanko

Fair enough Wiggy, took you up wrong.
We had Angus cross cows here years ago, I'm thinking about putting some Angus Bulls on Limx cows next year, ZFL is a bull Im thinking about using. I like the look of BJG also.

wiggy123

ah gd man--keep a pedigree herd here!!
me gd cross.. yep-2 bulls do gd job for ya..jumbo king can be hard calving I do here!

Bellview

wiggy123 wrote: »

cruz not 100%%

sorry too many dots. I meant that Dandy is 100% angus. The error was his dam was originally registered as a Cruz but she is a different sire... which as it turns out is a positive due to some issues around Cruz

Bellview

tanko wrote: »

Fair enough Wiggy, took you up wrong.
We had Angus cross cows here years ago, I'm thinking about putting some Angus Bulls on Limx cows next year, ZFL is a bull Im thinking about using. I like the look of BJG also.

Agree on considering the other Dovea bull Bunlahy John BJG, he was a large calf himself and may suit suckler. I must admit I'm not a fan of anything Rossiter as my view (from experience) is they are hard to finish and take more feeding

Depending on how much risk you want at calving but there are sons of Bulsullow Elmark by some folks who are big cattle... calving diff 7%. you will see them winning at a number of shows & you would pick them up worth the money in dairy country as farmers are not even bidding for them (as happened in Bandon this year). Only advice is if you have one of these have the calving jack ready.
If you see a bull with Rawburn & some Nethertons you will also probably have a tough calver as lot of Scotish blood brought in for showing are harder calving and will suit suckler more

Fermboy

Bellview wrote: »

Agree on considering the other Dovea bull Bunlahy John BJG, he was a large calf himself and may suit suckler. I must admit I'm not a fan of anything Rossiter as my view (from experience) is they are hard to finish and take more feeding

Depending on how much risk you want at calving but there are sons of Bulsullow Elmark by some folks who are big cattle... calving diff 7%. you will see them winning at a number of shows & you would pick them up worth the money in dairy country as farmers are not even bidding for them (as happened in Bandon this year). Only advice is if you have one of these have the calving jack ready.
If you see a bull with Rawburn & some Nethertons you will also probably have a tough calver as lot of Scotish blood brought in for showing are harder calving and will suit suckler more

Anyone any calves off Simmental bull auroch dueter AHC?

Andy Gray

Fermboy wrote:

Anyone any calves off Simmental bull auroch dueter AHC?

Don't think there would be any born yet. Semen not available that long. Don't think he'll be an easy calver.

whelan2

See dovea have a special on lisduff dandy in ad section of journal

wiggy123

seen that.. odd timing