Union Selling out the NQT's (or not!) Thread

katydid

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Well you seem to be under the impression that NQTs don't suffer any of these issues either. NQTs are also suffering with casualisation of posts. I spent six years in college educating myself to be a teacher and when I arrived into the workforce the majority of my classmates had to emigrate as they couldn't even get interviews here.

I'm sorry I don't understand how you could possibly claim I am molly coddled when my pay was cut by 25% and I will be making a loss of over a quarter of a million euro over my life time. That is actually laughable.

You pay 300 euro a year because you are obviously in full time employment. That makes it a lot easier to pay that 300 seeing as you have a job! If I were on my own contract I would also pay the same money but your interests are the ones being looked after, not mine. How is that fair? I suppose I'd be molly coddled then too.

Your friend being affected by casualisation of contracts is not something unique to him. At least however he is on the old pay scale where he is paid more for those hours despite doing the same work.

It doesn't sound like you have an ounce of sympathy to be quite honest and it sounds like you think that we personally should be negotiating our pay as opposed to the union which did it for us. Again I reiterate; my pay was cut before I even had the opportunity to have my voice heard on the issue and if you think it is fair to sell out new entrants to a profession to protect older members and then turn around and call those newer entrants molly coddled when their pay cuts have allowed your own to be less affected then your idea of equality in teaching is absolutely laughable.

Yes, NQT's are suffering from things like casualization, but they are not the only ones. In my workplace, fifty percent of the staff is on casual contracts, and some of them have been teaching for ten years or more. So get over your self pity and open your eyes. We are all in this.

I was in college in the seventies, and when I came out in 1981 I had exactly the same problem as NQT's now. There were no full time jobs; It took me twelve years to get a full time job; and in those twelve years, there were no such things as pro-rata or CID contracts. I had to sign on the dole every Christmas, mid term, Easter and summer, and taught in literally dozens of schools, a day here, a week there. I taught English to students in the summer, I taught night classes, I went back to college at night and added to my range of subjects. In other words, I didn't sit around on my posterior whining, I just got on with it. Oh, and do you know who managed to change things so that people like me could have some kind of security of employment in terms of contracts? The union...

For my part, I have every sympathy for fellow teachers, be they newly qualified or long serving, who are having problems with finding jobs, getting proper contracts, or getting qualifications recognised. I have no sympathy with whingers who are not prepared to do something about their plight; who complain about the union not helping them, but refuse to join, and who seem to think a full time job should jump into their laps because they are qualified teachers.

sitstill

katydid wrote: »

Yes, NQT's are suffering from things like casualization, but they are not the only ones. In my workplace, fifty percent of the staff is on casual contracts, and some of them have been teaching for ten years or more. So get over your self pity and open your eyes. We are all in this.

I was in college in the seventies, and when I came out in 1981 I had exactly the same problem as NQT's now. There were no full time jobs; It took me twelve years to get a full time job; and in those twelve years, there were no such things as pro-rata or CID contracts. I had to sign on the dole every Christmas, mid term, Easter and summer, and taught in literally dozens of schools, a day here, a week there. I taught English to students in the summer, I taught night classes, I went back to college at night and added to my range of subjects. In other words, I didn't sit around on my posterior whining, I just got on with it. Oh, and do you know who managed to change things so that people like me could have some kind of security of employment in terms of contracts? The union...

For my part, I have every sympathy for fellow teachers, be they newly qualified or long serving, who are having problems with finding jobs, getting proper contracts, or getting qualifications recognised. I have no sympathy with whingers who are not prepared to do something about their plight; who complain about the union not helping them, but refuse to join, and who seem to think a full time job should jump into their laps because they are qualified teachers.

Here, here!

ViveLaVie

katydid wrote: »

Yes, NQT's are suffering from things like casualization, but they are not the only ones. In my workplace, fifty percent of the staff is on casual contracts, and some of them have been teaching for ten years or more. So get over your self pity and open your eyes. We are all in this.

I was in college in the seventies, and when I came out in 1981 I had exactly the same problem as NQT's now. There were no full time jobs; It took me twelve years to get a full time job; and in those twelve years, there were no such things as pro-rata or CID contracts. I had to sign on the dole every Christmas, mid term, Easter and summer, and taught in literally dozens of schools, a day here, a week there. I taught English to students in the summer, I taught night classes, I went back to college at night and added to my range of subjects. In other words, I didn't sit around on my posterior whining, I just got on with it. Oh, and do you know who managed to change things so that people like me could have some kind of security of employment in terms of contracts? The union...

For my part, I have every sympathy for fellow teachers, be they newly qualified or long serving, who are having problems with finding jobs, getting proper contracts, or getting qualifications recognised. I have no sympathy with whingers who are not prepared to do something about their plight; who complain about the union not helping them, but refuse to join, and who seem to think a full time job should jump into their laps because they are qualified teachers.

And did every teacher have different pay based on age or year of entry? Were you paid significantly less than your colleagues?

Can you point out where I said casualisation was unique to NQTs? Because I didn't. Another poster seemed to think it didn't affect us and I was merely pointing out it did.

Pontificate all you want about the union helping if only we would join - newsflash, many NQTs are in the unions and do lobby and attend meetings. But guess what! The ruling majority i.e. the older staff have no interest in us getting equal pay and the unions aren't doing anything for us regardless.

I have already stated this: a union official told me explicitly that NEVER will we get our allowances back! So WHY would I pay them? They've already shown their hand and proven a complete lack of interest in us.

katydid

ViveLaVie wrote: »

And did every teacher have different pay based on age or year of entry? Were you paid significantly less than your colleagues?

Can you point out where I said casualisation was unique to NQTs? Because I didn't. Another poster seemed to think it didn't affect us and I was merely pointing out it did.

Pontificate all you want about the union helping if only we would join - newsflash, many NQTs are in the unions and do lobby and attend meetings. But guess what! The ruling majority i.e. the older staff have no interest in us getting equal pay and the unions aren't doing anything for us regardless.

I have already stated this: a union official told me explicitly that NEVER will we get our allowances back! So WHY would I pay them? They've already shown their hand and proven a complete lack of interest in us.

I was paid significantly less than my colleagues because I was only paid by the hour and got no holiday pay of any kind, unlike most part-time teachers today. That's how it was then. And the union changed it, because people like me got involved in the union and pushed for it.

The difference in pay scales was something imposed on the unions by government. NQT's are free to do what people like me did, and join the union, and lobby for change.

I didn't say you said casualisation was unique to NQT's. But you make it sound as if it is, by harping on about NQT's, as if they are the only ones suffering.

The union official was right, we will never get the allowances back. That is as annoying to me as to you - I spend several thousand euro of my own money doing a masters, and I'll never get any allowance for it, because I did it just after the cut off point. I just have to suck it up. I am not going to sulk and not bother being in the union because they are things they can do nothing about. I've worked as a union official, and I can tell you that I have seen part time teachers getting back hours which were taken off them, and having other issues sorted for them. I can guarantee that the moment you get some hours given to another teacher, or you are being bullied by another staff member, you'll be hotfooting it to your union rep looking for a membership form...

evolving_doors

I think the allowances were a legacy issue (unfortunately).. in the past rather than give a pay rise across the board to public sector workers they had to give 'allowances' tied to that profession (remember the old chestnut of the gardai getting a shoe allowance.. or the 'eating lunch at your desk allowance').

Allowances definitely were part of core pay (and I think as regards the HDip allowance it was something to do with differentiation between the VEC's or something, with teachers who held the primary degree only (maybe someone can clarify that one))...

MAsters allowance.. how long did it take for that €500 per year (assuming you are on full 22hrs!) pay off a 10k part time masters ?

I'm kind of changing my mind about colleges too.. nobody owes you a living, same as any other degree going. There's no job guaranteed. You could take the converse view that it's great that there's so many who can take the opportunity to emigrate and walk into a teaching career in other countries. So in that regard you pays your money and you takes your choice. I do oppose the 'hours culture' though that has come out of it. I still can't believe the amount of people with families and mortgages contemplating switching to teaching in Ireland either.

Anyhow back to the unions... Yes I firmly believe that NQT's payscale should have been protected, in the heel of the hunt very few were going to land jobs and even at that it wasn't going to be permanent posts on 22hrs either.

The great unknown was what would have happened if CP was rejected for a 3rd time. So if we had voted to reject it (for the 3rd time).. would the NQT's pay-scale have remained untouched? I just don't know.
But what I do know is that Croke Park wasn't just about NQT's.. that 1 vote impacted on a lot of teacher's conditions across the board so everybody had skin in the game whether the NQT's like it or not.

So yes the dept. won... the mission was divide and conquer by throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the mix... everyone had a stake. I even recall our rep saying that there were probably quite a few teachers nationally afraid to talk about the vote in the staff room as it would sound like they were purely out for themselves and not considering the other teachers who it impacted upon differently.

vamos!

It's human nature to vote for what suits you and your circumstances. The job market is tough out there. It could be argued that the group most neglected are actually those on poor CIDs. They had to spend 4 years fighting for their measly hours and now it's only 2 years. Of course it's progress and great for those of us with no CIDs but I can see how it might be hard to see a lucky NQT get more hours than you and be on a better CID in half the time. We were all screwed over in some fashion. A lot of senior staff are carrying the disappeared posts. A post holders are worked to the bone. NPTs are fighting for scraps and everyone has lost S&S with most being forced into doing it for free. Everyone has a bone to pick with the system, regardless of their job status. The Ward report has done a lot for NPTs. Pay might be contentious and unfair but there is a better chance of job stability than before.

vamos!

ViveLaVie wrote: »

And did every teacher have different pay based on age or year of entry? Were you paid significantly less than your colleagues?

Can you point out where I said casualisation was unique to NQTs? Because I didn't. Another poster seemed to think it didn't affect us and I was merely pointing out it did.

Pontificate all you want about the union helping if only we would join - newsflash, many NQTs are in the unions and do lobby and attend meetings. But guess what! The ruling majority i.e. the older staff have no interest in us getting equal pay and the unions aren't doing anything for us regardless.

I have already stated this: a union official told me explicitly that NEVER will we get our allowances back! So WHY would I pay them? They've already shown their hand and proven a complete lack of interest in us.

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation. If all NQTs, NPTs and people on poor CIDs fought together they would be a powerful group and the 'ruling majority' would not have the power. Of course people are going to vote for their own cause. Older teachers will protect the pension, more senior teachers will want posts reintroduced if they're next in line etc. You have no vote if you are not in the union.

katydid

vamos! wrote: »

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation. If all NQTs, NPTs and people on poor CIDs fought together they would be a powerful group and the 'ruling majority' would not have the power. Of course people are going to vote for their own cause. Older teachers will protect the pension, more senior teachers will want posts reintroduced if they're next in line etc. You have no vote if you are not in the union.

From my experience of union meetings, most of the time is taken up with issues regarding part time teachers and teachers on CID contracts. I don't know if it's just my ETB, but they seem to go out of their way to make life even more difficult for these people than it already is. The union officers spend hours of their own time working on these individuals' cases, and bringing them to the attention of headquarters. There might not be a particular lobby for NQT's general terms and conditions but there certainly is a lot of work going on for individual NQT's and others with issues.

mirrorwall14

The union is its members. They were invaluable to me this year in getting me from a 17hr CID to a 22hr one when my principal was like why aren't you happy? why are you complaining? He just would not/did not understand the difference between a 17hr contract and a 22hr. It didn't suit him to, he wanted the extra hours to ensure he got a good calibre part timer (15hr post advertised in my subject as opposed to the 10hr one it would have been if he gave me the 22hr). He told me this in our meeting! The union negotiated with the ETB. I got my contract. They helped at least 4 teachers in my staffroom this year and as someone mentioned above the ETB's really seem to be chancing their arms with contracts-you really need to be on the ball.

Without the union we would have been torn to shreds during this recession. And thats not counting the work the unions had done since the last recession. My parents are both teachers and I remember the worry every summer. My dad didn't have a permanent job until I was in secondary school. When he had three small kids he had to go to Spain for the summer to teach english and make ends meet-pay and conditions were shocking and it was way way worse than two pay scales. They have better pensions than me but I don't begrudge them a penny. Teachers and their unions worked bloody hard in the 90s to make teaching a decently paid profession.

Honestly if you want some idea what would have happened without a union take a look at the defence for salary scales and allowances. The force is down by something like 500 people and the budget cuts have been stringent. The pay was fairly rubbish before the recession, never mind now! And unlike the teaching profession many of these personel can make an absolute fortune abroad for the same work. I have a friend in the air corp who left due to the pay and is now working abroad making about 6 times his salary abroad and that is going by gross salary not net. He doesn't have to pay tax on his earnings abroad! He is in a normal country not a war zone or anything. When he visited his excolleagues before Christmas one of his bosses told him (jokingly) to stop visiting because people keep leaving every time he comes because the pay is so much better abroad.


We have gone backwards, but we are not in the 80s yet. And the Ward report has done a massive service to NQT's with the new CID arrangements. I could resent that if I wanted to because I had to wait unlike the new recruits but I don't-I'm delighted for the teachers it will affect! We are not the only Public/Civil service with two salary scales. Have a look at the impact website here! There are at least 3, if not 4 different pension arrangements too. You have to join the union and keep fighting. The country is coming out of recession, these fights will become a little easier with the budget close to being balanced. Why you would give up the fight just when things are starting to improve?!

acequion

The whingeing going on here is extremely tiresome,but has been very well countered by many posters whose points are inarguable. I attend all my branch meetings and two things have dominated all meetings this past year:the junior cycle campaign and casualisation. So there is no doubt whatsoever that it is top of the union agenda and many hard working union people are doing everything in their power to improve the situation. I really don't know what else you expect us to do and your attitude is reminiscent of the mud slinging of private sector towards public sector which has served the Gov agenda so handsomely.We are all teachers for chrissake and we have all suffered,albeit in different ways!

Like katydid I also qualified in the 80's and I completely back up everything she says about what life was like then for an NQT. No conditions or stability whatsoever. A week here,a day there,hourly pay,nothing during holidays. Of a group of five of us who qualified together,one ended up with a permanent teaching job, me,but that was years down the line having had to emigrate first. The other four all had to change career direction. I came back in the 90's when things were on the up but was still very lucky to get a permanency within 5 years.

But if you think that older permanent teachers have it all cosy just consider this: I'm now in my 50's with not even 20 years pensionable service and feeling worn out and burnt out but with just two stark choices: stick it out until 65 despite the fact that it's going to get much tougher and I'm already tiring and ageing, or else pack it in now and face a future on the breadline. Because that is the reality of a career in teaching. Lateral, upward or even downward mobility don't exist as they do in other careers and you're basically only as good as your last set of results. And my results year in,year out have been top notch as I've given it my all,but there are no rewards in this job.Again unlike other jobs.

But I have to suck it up. I chose teaching as a career and until the Gov made great use of the recession to destroy our conditions,I enjoyed it and felt appreciated and rewarded. But nobody can predict the future and every choice you make in life is a gamble.Oh I could still go off and learn a new skill, you're never too old to learn,but obviously it's a hell of a lot harder to branch into a new career in your 50's than in your 20's or 30's,so that is one big advantage younger teachers have over the older ones. And believe me I'm not the only older teacher in career crisis.

So, there are many of us of all ages feeling hard done by, but I have no doubt that without a union things would be a whole lot worse.

katydid

acequion wrote: »

The whingeing going on here is extremely tiresome,but has been very well countered by many posters whose points are inarguable. I attend all my branch meetings and two things have dominated all meetings this past year:the junior cycle campaign and casualisation. So there is no doubt whatsoever that it is top of the union agenda and many hard working union people are doing everything in their power to improve the situation. I really don't know what else you expect us to do and your attitude is reminiscent of the mud slinging of private sector towards public sector which has served the Gov agenda so handsomely.We are all teachers for chrissake and we have all suffered,albeit in different ways!

Like katydid I also qualified in the 80's and I completely back up everything she says about what life was like then for an NQT. No conditions or stability whatsoever. A week here,a day there,hourly pay,nothing during holidays. Of a group of five of us who qualified together,one ended up with a permanent teaching job, me,but that was years down the line having had to emigrate first. The other four all had to change career direction. I came back in the 90's when things were on the up but was still very lucky to get a permanency within 5 years.

But if you think that older permanent teachers have it all cosy just consider this: I'm now in my 50's with not even 20 years pensionable service and feeling worn out and burnt out but with just two stark choices: stick it out until 65 despite the fact that it's going to get much tougher and I'm already tiring and ageing, or else pack it in now and face a future on the breadline. Because that is the reality of a career in teaching. Lateral, upward or even downward mobility don't exist as they do in other careers and you're basically only as good as your last set of results. And my results year in,year out have been top notch as I've given it my all,but there are no rewards in this job.Again unlike other jobs.

But I have to suck it up. I chose teaching as a career and until the Gov made great use of the recession to destroy our conditions,I enjoyed it and felt appreciated and rewarded. But nobody can predict the future and every choice you make in life is a gamble.Oh I could still go off and learn a new skill, you're never too old to learn,but obviously it's a hell of a lot harder to branch into a new career in your 50's than in your 20's or 30's,so that is one big advantage younger teachers have over the older ones. And believe me I'm not the only older teacher in career crisis.

So, there are many of us of all ages feeling hard done by, but I have no doubt that without a union things would be a whole lot worse.

Well said.

byhookorbycrook

I also qualified in the 80s.I was one of those who queued outside INTO Head Office hoping some principal would ring looking for a sub for even a day's work. No mobiles, internet, text a sub.

During the Tiger years, my husband and I were the youngest two members in our local branch. No NQTS/Younger teachers, not one. When the new pay scales kicked in, suddenly we saw an influx of members and rightly so.

I feel sorry for the teachers who struggle now, but in common with everyone else, I feel if you want "the union" to do something, then get off your ass , go to meetings, congress, make your feelings known to CEC reps and to politicians.

r93kaey5p2izun

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I feel sorry for the teachers who struggle now, but in common with everyone else, I feel if you want "the union" to do something, then get off your ass , go to meetings, congress, make your feelings known to CEC reps and to politicians.

I agree completely. I totally understand that NQTs feel angry and frustrated but ultimately the only way forward is by working with the union. There's just no other way. Personally I would love to see an overhaul of the union with ASTI and TUI amalgamated for 2nd level teachers and I would like to see the paid union officials more accountable for their statements and decisions, but I think remaining outside the union and moaning that they don't represent you is pointless.

One problem I have experienced in regards to NPTs becoming active in the union is the negative opinion of some influential principals. There is a cohort of principals within my ETB who are very against the union despite being members. They are vocal in their criticism of union actions and directives, some have spoken publicly against the union and at least some have made negative comments about union involvement in their own schools. They are active NAPD members and as we have seen NAPD have undermined union stance on a number of issues. Some from this group attend all branch meetings and NPTs from within my ETB are too afraid to become more involved or to speak up. Colleagues have told me that the biggest difference they see now versus their own experience as NQTs during the difficult 80s is that they had the support of their principals in fighting for better conditions then, whereas now, despite improved conditions being available on paper, we are being deliberately kept on poor contracts as a matter of policy by our principals.

gaiscioch

acequion wrote: »

But if you think that older permanent teachers have it all cosy just consider this: I'm now in my 50's with not even 20 years pensionable service and feeling worn out and burnt out but with just two stark choices: stick it out until 65 despite the fact that it's going to get much tougher and I'm already tiring and ageing, or else pack it in now and face a future on the breadline. Because that is the reality of a career in teaching. Lateral, upward or even downward mobility don't exist as they do in other careers and you're basically only as good as your last set of results. And my results year in,year out have been top notch as I've given it my all,but there are no rewards in this job.Again unlike other jobs.

But I have to suck it up. I chose teaching as a career and until the Gov made great use of the recession to destroy our conditions,I enjoyed it and felt appreciated and rewarded. But nobody can predict the future and every choice you make in life is a gamble.Oh I could still go off and learn a new skill, you're never too old to learn,but obviously it's a hell of a lot harder to branch into a new career in your 50's than in your 20's or 30's,so that is one big advantage younger teachers have over the older ones. And believe me I'm not the only older teacher in career crisis.

Wow, just wow. You speak for an enormous number of increasingly disillusioned teachers, myself included (albeit younger). As somebody who also loved teaching and thought I'd be there until retirement, I had to leave internet land on reading that yesterday. I then went out for another day to help a friend by handraking a field full of stones and try and make it into a garden, while somebody else used a machine to rake it beforehand. In between apposite (in more ways than one) reflections on stony grey soil of Monaghan ("the laugh from my love you thieved...you told me the plough was immortal"), I felt like Sisyphus pushing that rock up a hill only to see it keep rolling down.

A few things. First, there are people who have to do that sort of physically- and soul-destroying work every day of their lives; we are beyond blessed that we are not among them.

Second, the guy who learnt a bit more to be able to drive the digger made a much easier life for himself (i.e. learn a new skill, however small, and make life easier than it currently is; you only need to learn enough to get in the "digger" of whatever job you do).

Third, taking into account the meagre pension awaiting us it's not smart to be using our 4.5 months holidays per year to be helping people or falling into the "sure they're on holidays" trap where everyone asks you to help out when in reality we should be building up some sort of liveable income for our retirement in our "free" time. We all need to be building up a war chest now. In a nutshell, with a pension so small, this teacher at any rate cannot afford to be on holidays, and seeing as holidays were one of the key reasons to get into teaching... (you can see where this is going).

Fourth, like you I too am very afraid (a strong word) that conditions for teachers are only going to decline and it is that part of your post which most unsettled me, as the truth often unsettles. There's very little point in having a permanent, pensionable post when the conditions of the employment are barely recognisable compared to 10 years ago and a future of poverty-line living is the cloud over retirement. A permanent, pensionable post with poor salary and poor conditions is in a completely different career world to a permanent, pensionable post with poor salary but good conditions of employment. If we're going to have poor conditions of employment, well, we might as well get paid much better for them. I've spoken with some career advisers about leaving teaching and their advice to date has been to keep the teaching going while using the holidays to explore other avenues for financial security. That seems fairly solid advice so far.

Younger teachers (especially if they want to live in Dublin) really should wise up to the financial reality facing them and make rational decisions because it will, unfortunately, become more difficult to change careers when they get older (and the years fly). You may enjoy the holidays, travelling and the like in your 20s and 30s but there's a price to pay for having such a career. Once you have kids, your summer holidays will not be your own - you'll be the babysitter. All the great, helpful things you'll do for people on your holidays will do nothing to get you out of the financially perilous state which is the result of being employed/paid for 7.5 months a year, and unemployed/unpaid for 4.5 months a year.