Road running is fine...

aero2k

I missed the remarks by Ger Hartmann (apparently he caused a bit of controversy recently), however here is the response from Rene Borg: link. I heard some of the chat on Matt Cooper's program yesterday - worth looking up if you're interested in running technique.

ger664

Had read that yesterday as well. Things like this are just the usual this is bad for you, this is better, no my way is better type arguments that have no meaning in the real world. What happened in Berkely last week should remind us of a quote I came across once

Dont take life so seriously, no one get's out alive.

Just go out and do what you enjoy while you can and feck the begruggers.

adrian522

I love the way Hartmann has been upgraded from Physio to "Leading athletics coach"

TBH I took his initial comments with a pinch of salt as I assumed he was coming from a point of view of "Don't Get injured at all costs" (Physio) Rather than running to maximise performance (running coach).

Some of his suggestions just didn't make any sense.

I advise maybe 40 minutes of jogging a week, two hours of strength and conditioning circuit training and a yoga class or at least 15 minutes of stretching every week.

I'm assuming that's not the advice Sonia O'Sullivan or Paula Radcliffe were getting.

Ososlo

Discussing it on Radio One now

adrian522

so you agree that people should cut their miles in half and spend the rest of the time doing pilates and yoga and circuit training or whatever?

And just "jog" 40 mins per week?

average_runner

adrian522 wrote: »

so you agree that people should cut their miles in half and spend the rest of the time doing pilates and yoga and circuit training or whatever?

And just "jog" 40 mins per week?

No one said just jog 40 mins a week. But alot of the best runners on this site would do alot of core work. Core work is as important as the running itself, without it you won't be running much when you get older!

adrian522

average_runner wrote: »

No one said just jog 40 mins a week. But alot of the best runners on this site would do alot of core work. Core work is as important as the running itself, without it you won't be running much when you get older!

Did you see the bit I quoted above?

TFBubendorfer

average_runner wrote: »

Core work is as important as the running itself, without it you won't be running much when you get older!

Seriously?
How old is your "older"?

average_runner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Seriously?
How old is your "older"?

Ask a physio, how many injuries are due to lack of core strength

runsir

adrian522 wrote: »

I love the way Hartmann has been upgraded from Physio to "Leading athletics coach"

TBH I took his initial comments with a pinch of salt as I assumed he was coming from a point of view of "Don't Get injured at all costs" (Physio) Rather than running to maximise performance (running coach).

Some of his suggestions just didn't make any sense.



I'm assuming that's not the advice Sonia O'Sullivan or Paula Radcliffe were getting.

He's doing well to be upgraded to that because he's even not a Physiotherapist. He's a "Physical Therapist"

Great article here on Mr. Hartmann

https://thesportsphysio.wordpress.com/2015/04/24/all-thats-wrong-with-sports-physios/

TFBubendorfer

average_runner wrote: »

Ask a physio, how many injuries are due to lack of core strength

I don't know how many and I don't have a physio on hand to ask but I do know that I don't do any specific core exercise and my last running injury was about 8 years ago.

average_runner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I don't know how many and I don't have a physio on hand to ask but I do know that I don't do any specific core exercise and my last running injury was about 8 years ago.

That's you.

I on the other hand have pick up 3 injuries in the last 2 years, alot due to weak core.

There will always be exceptions, but do you really think the top irish runners do core work for fun?

Ososlo

average_runner wrote: »

That's you.

I on the other hand have pick up 3 injuries in the last 2 years, alot due to weak core.

There will always be exceptions, but do you really think the top irish runners do core work for fun?

What types of core work do top Irish runners do? Interested to know.

average_runner

Ososlo wrote: »

What types of core work do top Irish runners do? Interested to know.

Don't know the specifics but numerous of them talked about in interviews.

Sonia did a lot as mentioned it.

TFBubendorfer

average_runner wrote: »

That's you.

I on the other hand have pick up 3 injuries in the last 2 years, alot due to weak core.

There will always be exceptions, but do you really think the top irish runners do core work for fun?

Thomas Chamney did it for a completely different reason:http://www.therunningreview.com/2012/05/21/athlete-qa-thomas-chamney/

And I very much doubt the rest of them would regard core work as just as important as their running training.

average_runner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Thomas Chamney did it for a completely different reason:http://www.therunningreview.com/2012/05/21/athlete-qa-thomas-chamney/

And I very much doubt the rest of them would regard core work as just as important as their running training.

So your saying that all the top athletes in the world are doing it for fun and that it doesn't improve their running?

ger664

We blame injuries on weak core, flexibility, wrong shoes etc etc. There is a good reason why TFB has not been out injured for the last 8 years and he averages 70 miles a week all the the road.

Of all the people posting here he is one of the few whose weight is in line with that of a distance runner. Take a look at the current explosion of people running and its not the surface that they run on or the lack of planks that is the issue.

TFBubendorfer

average_runner wrote: »

So your saying that all the top athletes in the world are doing it for fun and that it doesn't improve their running?

The top runners in the world are generally the Kenyans and from what I have read about their training, core work is not on top of their list of priorities. Running is.

average_runner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

The top runners in the world are generally the Kenyans and from what I have read about their training, core work is not on top of their list of priorities. Running is.

So bolt, James, Mo, Rupp and including the Kenyans don't do a core program most days?
Rudisha does

runsir

runsir wrote: »

He's doing well because he's not a Physiotherapist. He's a Physical Therapist

Great article here on Mr. Hartmann

https://thesportsphysio.wordpress.com/2015/04/24/all-thats-wrong-with-sports-physios/

Uh oh, sounds like those people who don't have the qualifications of a psychiatrist or a psychologist and so call themselves "psychotherapists".

TFBubendorfer

average_runner wrote: »

So bolt, James, Mo, Rupp and including the Kenyans don't do a core program most days?
Rudisha does

If you're making a sweeping statement like "Core work is as important as the running itself" then you can expect to be challenged. You have said nothing since to substantiate that claim. The runners you mentioned there may all be doing core work, it still does not mean it's of equal importance to their running!

Anyway, I'm going for a run now.

Ceepo

Myles Splitz wrote: »

I think that very much the point of issue which was raised in the initial article and I feel is a perception which is severely limiting alot of potential among many road runners (and distance runners in general) in this country.

Ancillary work such as drills, core, strength and condition, plyometrics, flexibility work etc should not be seen as "extra" to running they should be part and parcel of the overall training, a number of pieces to the overall puzzle.

I would say if you asked any runner from the '80 or '90 about core work the would go looking for a drill bit.

No compare the times they were running then and now even at a local level. Now I wonder what the difference is down to.
I remember asking a 2.12 marathon guy ( and there's not to man of the around) about core work this was his answer " if I had a spare 30 min in the week well that would be another 5 ml I would have ran"

Not saying core is not important but I wouldn't put it down to the severly limiting factor in the potential of local runners.

Sacksian

I read an interview with John Downes a while back, where he was talking about training and coaching. This was a guy who ran 100 mile weekly while working 50 hour weeks on building sites in London as a labourer and still found the time to run 13:20 for 5k and 63 minutes for the half-marathon!

As a runner, he was as old school as they come but his attitude to supplementary work now, as a top coach, is that it is essential because of modern lifestyles.

His exact quote, which I often recall when I'm wondering whether I should bother with s&c work, captures some of what Myles above is saying: "People today don't have the use of themselves as they did 30 or 40 years ago". Which is a nice turn of phrase, I think. Actually, any of his interviews on training and coaching are well worth digging out.

Obviously, it's not as important as running for any distance but, as someone who previously dismissed it, I'm starting to see the value of it! Personally, I think S&C becomes more important the faster you're running because of the force application involved. I was never injured running marathons but running at mile pace and below has highlighted certain biomechanical problems I picked up from twenty-five years of being a very one-footed footballer.

average_runner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

If you're making a sweeping statement like "Core work is as important as the running itself" then you can expect to be challenged. You have said nothing since to substantiate that claim. The runners you mentioned there may all be doing core work, it still does not mean it's of equal importance to their running!

Anyway, I'm going for a run now.

Well I had a craps run, hope urs was better.
Do you believe bolt, James etc would get the same times if they did no core work?

clear thinking

A physio harping on about flexibility shocker!

Increasing flexibility reduces stability, increasing power loss. So there is a balance.

30k per week and pilates is great if you are keeping a healthy lifestyle but is horse shyte for competing.

TFBubendorfer

average_runner wrote: »

Well I had a craps run, hope urs was better.
Do you believe bolt, James etc would get the same times if they did no core work?

I had a lovely first ever parkrun, thanks
I have no idea how fast they would run if they did no core work.

Would they get the same times if they did no running training?

TFBubendorfer

Deleted User wrote: »

Uh oh, sounds like those people who don't have the qualifications of a psychiatrist or a psychologist and so call themselves "psychotherapists".

clear thinking wrote: »

A physio harping on about flexibility shocker!

Increasing flexibility reduces stability, increasing power loss. So there is a balance.

30k per week and pilates is great if you are keeping a healthy lifestyle but is horse shyte for competing.

Now hang on a second. Ger Hartmann is a highly regarded professional who has worked with more world champions and Olympians than just about anyone else. He isn't just some random guy who is desperate to spout any old nonsense just to get his name in the papers. It very much looks to me like his words were taken out of context by some journalist and all of a sudden the message became that more than 40 minutes of jogging is bad for you. I am absolutely certain that Ger Hartmann does not hold that opinion. It would be absurd considering the kind of athletes he is working with.

ger664

When we run the body adapts make us better runners. One of those adaptations is the strengthening of ligaments and shortening of muscles. This effectively reduces ROM and flexibility, so why are we hell bent on reversing this adaptation.

Notwork Error

ger664 wrote: »

When we run the body adapts make us better runners. One of those adaptations is the strengthening of ligaments and shortening of muscles. This effectively reduces ROM and flexibility, so why are we hell bent on reversing this adaptation.

We are not built for road running though and not all adaptions are good especially if they are on top of already learned bad habits and people just up off the couch. Take a person who sits a lot, without doing any flexibility work, they will have 'shortened' hip flexors and no matter how much running they do, if they do not work on releasing the hip flexors, they will be constantly have injury problems and won't have the range of motion to run their best. A tight muscle is one that takes more energy to move and are weak.


As Myles Splitz already said, flexibility has huge power benefits and hip extension and dorsiflexion are where all the power comes from in the stride and to get the best out of those, you need flexibility in the hips and and Achilles. Poor range of motion limits your performance and stresses the muscles which leads to higher chance of injury. Your body also just doesn't adapt to running but it adapts to your daily way of living, you just have to look at posture to see that your body picks up bad habits too and poor posture comes from tight muscles.

We can't say that just because TFB doesn't get injured that it is ok to pass on flexibility work, he could have won in the gene pool with longer tendons and higher flexibility. It's a highly known fact that the best runners in the world are hyperflexible in the hips and ankles displaying a really long and flexible achilles tendon. The more range of movement you have, the less pressure a muscle is under when you move it.

For the vast majority of people, strength and flexibility are crucial in keeping them injury free. If good flexibility isn't important in injury prevention, why in most cases do we become prone to a higher injury rate from simple movements as we get older?

average_runner

ger664 wrote: »

When we run the body adapts make us better runners. One of those adaptations is the strengthening of ligaments and shortening of muscles. This effectively reduces ROM and flexibility, so why are we hell bent on reversing this adaptation.

That's not true, your body will adapt to the style of running, even if it's a bad technique and bad technique causes injuries.

So we need to teach the body the correct running form.

Chivito550

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I had a lovely first ever parkrun, thanks
I have no idea how fast they would run if they did no core work.

Would they get the same times if they did no running training?

Strength work is massively important for sprinters. I would consider my 2 gym days to be as important as my hill and track days. It's the early season "long run" that I would ditch if I had to skip something for whatever reason.