Why does everyone have a 'disease' nowadays?

TwoGallants

In the interests of full disclosure, I am what they might call, a skeptic of psychology.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks the world is mental. Apparently we're all depressed, or we're undiagnosed schizophrenics, or living with autism, or have manic tendencies. But do we? No, of course not. Some people, undoubtedly, have severe mental health problems and they deserve help and support, but I can't help but call 'bull****' when I see so many people crying 'depression'. No, sorry, you just need to exercise more and stop living in your internal world so much.

I feel sympathy for people who are suffering, but I'm increasingly jaded by the sheer number of people who cry 'I have a disease'. Like alcoholics for instance. I have a mate who likes to claim that he is one because he got really drunk for a couple of weeks after breaking up with his girlfriend. I call it a bender, he calls it a medical condition.

Why do we entertain this?

We go and see a doctor, the doctor barely looks at us and prescribes us pills. We take the pills like obedient little animals with very little thought of the consequences.

As far as I can see, the only beneficiary is the pharma company.

Which brings me to the root of my skepticism.

In the past, I felt very depressed, almost to the point of hopelessness. I had a ****ty job, no life as such, living at home, achieving nothing. But I turned it around by embracing my life (and forcing myself to go to the gym) I went to a doctor and he gave me pills. I never took them. I had an epiphany of sorts. I recall saying, '**** the pills'.

Why do we insist on labelling things as medical conditions? When a man says he feels socially awkward and sweats when he needs to speak a large group of people, we say he has social anxiety. When he says that he feels grumpy in the morning and lacks motivation, he's depressed. We never ask, what if the reason you are socially awkward is because you don't actually like the people you have to engage with? Or the reason that you lack motivation is because you have a ****ty job? Why don't we start with the basics, that maybe the problem lies with the conditions of your life, not your brain chemistry (Which we more or less have no ****ing understanding of anyway)

So I guess, in closing, stop labelling normal human varience as a sickness, and instead embrace it. And instead of ****ing around with your brain chemistry, try changing the problematic conditions of your life - ditch bad people, quit your job, become a yoga instructor if thats what it takes!

Peace and love.

Manach

The OP's might find Dr. Theodore Dalrymple as an interesting viewpoint which might mirror their own. He has practiced in poor areas of London and in prisons as a Doctor. In his various books on his experiences, he has decried the over-use of prescription medicals to fix an every growing amount of societal ills. Stakeholders involved, such as large pharma-companies, come in for some criticism.

ComfortKid

Manach wrote:

The OP's might find Dr. Theodore Dalrymple as an interesting viewpoint which might mirror their own. He has practiced in poor areas of London and in prisons as a Doctor. In his various books on his experiences, he has decried the over-use of prescription medicals to fix an every growing amount of societal ills. Stakeholders involved, such as large pharma-companies, come in for some criticism.

Does he have a book or what? Sounds interesting. Agree with everything the OP said there. Sadly, the way technology is going, more and more kids will be "depressed" because they never leave their bedroom.

Harry Palmr

There is no question that the entire front line of diagnosis and treatment is now influenced to an unhealthy degree by the pharmaceutical industry and its need to sell product much of which is not needed. Doctors are constantly been enticed by offers, gifts and sheer volume of bumf to put their patients on shiny new expensive pills and potions, the other issue is that many a doctor is under pressure to keep up with the demand imposed by the public so many of whom are looking for a quick fix for often self-inflicted but minor, passing ailments.

The other thing is this, doctors will always err on the side of caution understandably. So they will cover their backs when you or I might tell a moaning friend to just leave it (whatever it is), it'll fix itself. It probably will but it might not and time could be the difference between something minor and hospital.

As regards the idea will all have psychological conditions that need treatment, that's based on fear and the security blanket of being diagnosed for many people I suspect.
Our minds are very easily fvcked with, and some people are prone to worry regardless of how little they have to worry about. Clearly the best approach is to try to enlighten and re-calibrate through talking and implementing rather than prescribing something designed to dull the senses.

mp3 audio discussion from Australia its about 20 minutes long "Medicalising Normality"

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2013/10/lms_20131003_0906.mp3

ancapailldorcha

I'd say that there are a few factors involved. On one hand you have improved diagnostic methods and tools while you also have Big Pharma, compensation culture and good aul fashioned laziness coming into play.

Doctos are often pressured into perscribing something by parents so they feel like action has been taken. Added to that, Big Pharma is the main party responsible for educating Doctors once they leave medical school or University.

In addition, anyone laying claim to having a "disease" will often use it as a justification for their refusal to alter their behaviour hence my mention of laziness above.

ComfortKid

Alcoholics saying they have a disease is one of the worst, It's just a bad habit. Addiction.

Torakx

Antibiotics and hormone treatments, can and often do destroy the immune system, encouraging disease from infection in many ways.
It can have a long lasting and systemic effect on the body that has been knocked off balance. What follows are a series of diagnosis for symptoms and eventually in the worst cases, parts are removed or colapse and people die younger than they need to.
One of the most common symptoms of a disrupted or damaged digestive system is depression and fatigue.

Since there is a whole lot of antibiotic prescriptions being doled out to willing victims and by indoctrinated health authorities, it is no wonder there are so many people suffering with depression and anxiety.

I think some of the labels are useful for discussion, but not so useful for people who don't fully understand the foundational concepts of the self and ego.
I kind of agree with you OP about the psychology.
Obviously I am against pills in most cases and considering the majorities and prefer the methods of helping people think differently.
But I find philosophy more powerful at the lower levels, which works right up through to our conscious thoughts and acts.
Only then are the labels of some use in mapping the environment.

I also fully agree, a lot of the problems people have are stemming from the culture and environment they occupy.

But here's a thought for you to consider.
If you find your way onto a working path to being more content and depression free, it might be only thanks to the negative things forcing you to do so.
Which begs the question, if not experiencing something causes you to forget how to combat it, does then the path to being free from depression, eventually lead to depression? LOL

I have some similar experiences as yourself.
These days i am unable to get away from the world that is so messed up. And I'm not good at ignoring elephants!
So I pick and choose the negatives I want to use to practise on and keep them around me.
This is much in the same spirit as your comments about accepting things.
It explains why we have to love our enemies and keep them close. Why we have to understand them and accept them with and without emotion. A full acceptance.
When I perfect the art of living with a certain friction, I tend to look for a new source of learning.

I noticed since I started embracing issues as a learning experience, I take the power back and they don't control my levels of contentedness.
The only way to hurt me now, is to cause me to have a lot of pleasure and get me to attach to it. Then rip it away.
Relationships are for the brave and stupid haha
Choose wisely.

NIMAN

Got to agree with the OP on this one.

GPs seem too happy to simply hand over some drugs to keep you happy and offer little in the way of discussion or alternative methods of curing your problem.

I do think depression is one issue that isn't properly addressed. There is a shockingly high percentage of people on anti-depressants. Often some of those involved could do something themselves to help lessen the condition. But taking the drugs is easier.

I also think with the way the world is going, with people getting fatter, becoming more obsessed with looks and celebs and how fulfilling our lives aren't compared to others, we will have even more depressed people needing medication. Life is often sh1t for many of us, but sometimes you just have to accept that it can be sh1t, and get on with it. Tablets aren't always the answer.

As for conditions, I always thought aspergers syndrome was a strange one. Watched a TV show about it one night and from what I can see its a fancy term for shyness.

Then we have the children nowadays who just can't be bad little gits. They have to have some condition that makes them bad.

ComfortKid

ADHD = Bauld Bastard Syndrome



Of course their parents are never going to think their little angel might be bold, must be something wrong with him. He needs meds. When all he needs is a good, educating parent!

Manach

ComfortKid wrote: »

Does he have a book or what? Sounds interesting.

Offhand a good starting point would be "Second opinion:A Doctor's Dispatches From The Inner City" or "If symptoms persist"- Dalrymple

Turtwig

What evidence do people here have that gp's over prescribe drugs?

Depression is one of the most prevalent illness in society. For some reasons humans in general have a stigma against. Facilities provided to deal with it are still at a pathetically novice stage. What does a GP do? Do absolutely nothing for a depressive until they get into a CBT course? Surely you appreciate the dilemma of letting someone go with a debilitating illness without treatment. All that said, I was under the impression anti Ds were not over prescribed. Heartburn medications and anti biotics are.
Finally CBT has almost no efficacy against schizophrenia. That requires pharmacological intervention for severe sufferers to have any hope of a quality of life.

In general people are healthier than they've ever been. The reason there's so many different diseases nowadays is because we're aware of them. Also people live long enough to get them. Eventually, almost everyone reading this will have some ailment. Be that mental or physical or possibly both.

ancapailldorcha

Pharmaceutical companies invest a huge amount of resources on marketing to doctors. I'm not saying that they're over-prescribing but the companies wouldn't be making that sort of investment without attaining a return.

That said, there's also the ridiculous position of Bill Maher and many others that exercise and nutrition can avert disease. A lot of diseases, as Turtwig points out require medication so that the patient can recover, stabilise or regain some of their former quality of life.

I think there is a lot of thing going on.

The internet has made it easier to find information and to diagnose an illness.

Less acceptance of oddities and quirks by the 'odd' person themselves and by society everything needs to be fixed.

Its the inevitable outcome of a society that promotes the idea that everything can be fixed with the right intervention it cant.

faceman

Alcoholism is considered both a mental illness (addiction) and a physical disease. The mental illness, i.e. the addiction elements, exist long before the the physical traits of the disease appear.

The physical traits of the disease include cirrhosis of the liver and neurological damage.

I see your point about pills OP but I disagree with your other points about mental well being. No different from how severe people can suffer from a common cold, people can suffer from varying degrees of severity with mental illness.

iguana

Turtwig wrote: »

Depression is one of the most prevalent illness in society. For some reasons humans in general have a stigma against. Facilities provided to deal with it are still at a pathetically novice stage. What does a GP do? Do absolutely nothing for a depressive until they get into a CBT course?

They could start by doing a basic medical check up on anyone who reports depression like symptoms before handing out mood altering medication. That sounds like it should be automatic practice with GPs as lots of physical problems cause people to feel depressed and finding out the root cause of a problem and treating that makes so much more sense than treating a symptom endlessly.

A few years back I was severely depressed and had near constant suicidal ideation. I used to walk my dogs along a lovely riverbank twice a day and instead of feeling uplifted by that as I always had before. I used to spend most of the walk looking at the water and fantasising about lying down in it until the darkness that I was living in over took me totally. I wasn't planning on acting on those feelings but I felt like I was down in a dark hole that I couldn't get out of and thinking about giving in to that darkness was like a comfort blanket.

After a few months of this I went to my GP about what I thought was an unrelated matter and he took a blood sample to do a full work up on. A week later I was told I was anaemic and needed to start a strong iron supplement as well as making some changes to my diet that ensured my body would absorb the iron. By the next day all my feelings of depression were gone. I still had some problems in my life that were making me stressed and worried but I felt strong and confident in my ability to handle them instead of barely able to carry on.

All of my depression was coming from a nutritional deficiency. I could have gone to the doctor with my mental symptoms and been prescribed xanax or similar which would have blocked out the worst of my misery but I wouldn't have felt right or happy on those. And at the same time my body would still have been depleted of a necessary nutrient and eventually my depression would have worsened along with my body suffering further consequences of my anaemia. Instead a box of spatone and a few hours without dairy every day restored my brain chemistry to normal. I treated the cause of my depression and got better, instead of masking a symptom and letting the actual problem get worse.

Numerous nutritional deficiencies cause similar symptoms, other than iron, lack of Omega 3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Magnesium, Vitamin B complex, amino acids, zinc, folate, selenium and iodine can all cause severe depression. For many people the very real cure for their depression can be as simple as going outside for an hour every summer morning before applying their sunblock or eating a handful of nuts each day. I don't understand why a simple blood test isn't the very, very first thing done for every patient who presents with depression. It doesn't always have to be the only treatment and it won't always show a problem. But it's an absolute disgrace that diagnosing or ruling out a physical root of the problem isn't the first thing doctors do.

iguana

OP a great book to read about this is The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson. It's a funny, entertaining read while also very enlightening and ultimately very scary about how these illnesses are created and the damage that can be caused by diagnosing people who have personality traits on the boundary of normal as diseased.

galljga1

ComfortKid wrote: »

ADHD = Bauld Bastard Syndrome



Of course their parents are never going to think their little angel might be bold, must be something wrong with him. He needs meds. When all he needs is a good, educating parent!

My brother is a teacher. One of the parents, on hearing that he might get some sort of grant insisted that his kid had ACDC.

ComfortKid

iguana wrote:

After a few months of this I went to my GP about what I thought was an unrelated matter and he took a blood sample to do a full work up on. A week later I was told I was anaemic and needed to start a strong iron supplement as well as making some changes to my diet that ensured my body would absorb the iron. By the next day all my feelings of depression were gone. I still had some problems in my life that were making me stressed and worried but I felt strong and confident in my ability to handle them instead of barely able to carry on.

Glad you got sorted. You could easily be walking around like a dribbling zombie now had you gone to the doctor about your depression.

ComfortKid

galljga1 wrote:

My brother is a teacher. One of the parents, on hearing that he might get some sort of grant insisted that his kid had ACDC.

Yeah, a neighbour of mine has a son whos a baul little brat, she gets extra money on her social welfare payments, free electricity units, a holiday to mosney.He got the dole when he was 16..This isnt bashing social welfare or anything, it's the ridiculous "disability"

TwoGallants

I'm a bit surprised that there is so much consensus here. In fact, I'm a little worried, as I know that the other side has got some valuable arguments that they can marshal on their behalf, and I'd be willing to entertain them.

Does anyone buy this '25% of people' have a mental illness statistic that is sometimes trotted out (or a varient of that number)

Maybe we should concentrate first of all on what a mental illness actually is. When we have defined it as something along the lines of a mental anguish or suffering that prevents you living your life they way you would wish, perhaps we could then differentiate between the material conditions (living in precarious economic circumstances, forced to do a job you hate because of wage slavery, or because you have people dependent on you) and chemical ones which might require treatment and/or medication.

ComfortKid

That's the thing, You can be depressed because of a chemical imbalance, or you can be depressed because of your lifestyle. Doctors just hand out tablets that make you literary too stupid to be depressed. Every town in Ireland has big numbers of these tablet heads, and in my opinion they can lead to more serious drugs like methadone and heroin. I've seen this happen with friends I grew up with. Sad to see.

NIMAN

Whats doing without dairy?

iguana

NIMAN wrote: »

Whats doing without dairy?

If that's in relation to my post. Dairy inhibits iron absorbtion so in order to make sure my body was actually absorbing the iron supplement I needed to avoid dairy for a couple of hours either side of taking it. I'm a big milk drinker and eat lots of cheese and yoghurt, so I had to alter my diet to 'do without dairy' at times during the day and instead up my Vit C intake as Vit C is necessary for iron absorbtion. Taking an iron supplement at the same time as consuming dairy will get you nothing but a bout of constipation (which means those follow-on-formula ads drive me nuts as the added iron won't be absorbed by the baby and is likely to cause them tummy upsets).

Conversely if you have a Vitamin D deficiency you might want to up your intake of full fat dairy as that can help absorbtion of Vit D.

Manach

Mod note:This is so far an interesting discussion. Two notes: One is that discussion about medical conditions is not restricted but specifics might be better served in forums such as Long term illness (under that charter's remit about giving medical advice). Second is to please avoid any potential derogatory terms (Tablet heads). Thanks.

ComfortKid

Manach wrote:

Mod note:This is so far an interesting discussion. Two notes: One is that discussion about medical conditions is not restricted but specifics might be better served in forums such as Long term illness (under that charter's remit about giving medical advice). Second is to please avoid any potential derogatory terms (Tablet heads). Thanks.

Sorry. Couldn't think of a better way to describe them.

iguana

TwoGallants wrote: »

I'm a bit surprised that there is so much consensus here. In fact, I'm a little worried, as I know that the other side has got some valuable arguments that they can marshal on their behalf, and I'd be willing to entertain them.

I read Psychology Today quite a lot, mainly the parenting articles, and tbh, many great doctors and psychologists are absolutely scathing about the way mental illnesses are over diagnosed. The general jist I get from the writers at PT about the rise in childhood mental illness is that it has been almost exclusively caused by parents and teachers having ridiculous expectations of children's behaviour. Children who have normal personalities but just happen to lean toward one end of neurotypical or the other, like an extra active child or a child that doesn't really like mess and wants to keep their toys 'just so' get diagnosis like ADHD or Aspergers/OCD when really they are just a future sportsperson or collector.

I have a very real fear of just how devastating these diagnoses are going to prove to the future lives of these children. I suspect that 30 years from now we have rooms full of support groups for adults who just can't get over the fact that their parents had their personalities diagnosed as a disease.

diarmuid05

Modern medicine = Treat the symptoms not the cause

zeffabelli

iguana wrote: »

I read Psychology Today quite a lot, mainly the parenting articles, and tbh, many great doctors and psychologists are absolutely scathing about the way mental illnesses are over diagnosed. The general jist I get from the writers at PT about the rise in childhood mental illness is that it has been almost exclusively caused by parents and teachers having ridiculous expectations of children's behaviour. Children who have normal personalities but just happen to lean toward one end of neurotypical or the other, like an extra active child or a child that doesn't really like mess and wants to keep their toys 'just so' get diagnosis like ADHD or Aspergers/OCD when really they are just a future sportsperson or collector.

I have a very real fear of just how devastating these diagnoses are going to prove to the future lives of these children. I suspect that 30 years from now we have rooms full of support groups for adults who just can't get over the fact that their parents had their personalities diagnosed as a disease.

The problem is these articles are decontextualised from the culture they are talking about.

What has happenned in the US in education with the No child left behind act is they now how unfair expectations on children and are testing them over and over and over again and if individual children don't meet those expectations, these rigid standards, the children get particularised and its the only country where psychiatry has a foot in the door into education. And for a country that values and prizes the individual, they are paradoically trying to kill of those parts of children, and adults that don't accommodate the models of current education.

iguana

zeffabelli wrote: »

The problem is these articles are decontextualised from the culture they are talking about.

What has happenned in the US in education with the No child left behind act is they now how unfair expectations on children and are testing them over and over and over again and if individual children don't meet those expectations, these rigid standards, the children get particularised and its the only country where psychiatry has a foot in the door into education. And for a country that values and prizes the individual, they are paradoically trying to kill of those parts of children, and adults that don't accommodate the models of current education.

That's pretty much what most of the articles I've read on this subject say. Expectations of children have changed and as a result the children who can't meet those narrowing expectations are found to have an illness and medicated in order to make them fit the expectations. It's not just the schools though they are a major part of the problem with recess hours reduced and in some schools eliminated entirely.

But there are also other causes. We have reached a point where our society has expectations of our children that are almost paradoxial. Infants are expected to display independent behaviours, like the ability to sleep fall asleep alone and then stay alone for 8-12 hours from only a few weeks/months old despite the fact that very few babies are naturally able to manage this. While older children are denied independence as theirh parents are frightened to allow them free play alone and are instead over-scheduling their lives with activities. Then children who have very natural, imo, meltdowns or rebellions in the face of such expectations and restrictions are diagnosed with an illness instead of the real cause of the problems being identified and changed.

doolox

I must be the oldest diagnosis in this country. Like many of the other contributors here I have mixed feelings about the diagnosis but it makes sense if only to realise that other people do not think or are motivated like me and that a better sense of the world can be got by realising that there are different viewpoints to everything, that plans can change at short notice without fault, blame or hidden agendas and that communication at all times is key.

I had a very difficult childhood and poor education achievements because of my undiagnosed aspergers in the first half of my life. Since diagnosis I have sought and got help in coping with getting and doing a job, managing family and outside relationships etc... In my work I had the benefit of a coach to talk me through difficult situations and dilemmas which a normal person may find easy and simple to get through. I work freelance and am self employed and I find this works as I can avoid close work relationships and office politics which I found in the past to be very problematical. I have learned to accept my limitations and I am glad that a CBT solution works for me without medication as I would not like the side effects and complications of medication. Other people may need medication as a temporary shoring up of the bodies mental processing mechanisms but cognitive therapy should be the long term goal. Often this is not the case as medication is the cheap quick fix to a doctors work load and time for CBT is not always available to people in need of it.

I had not even realised that pharma companies may indulge in rewarding doctors for prescribing medication in larger amounts that absolutely necessary for their own financial benefit without balancing the needs of the patients as well.
This would be a very big cause for concern.

zeffabelli

iguana wrote: »

That's pretty much what most of the articles I've read on this subject say. Expectations of children have changed and as a result the children who can't meet those narrowing expectations are found to have an illness and medicated in order to make them fit the expectations. It's not just the schools though they are a major part of the problem with recess hours reduced and in some schools eliminated entirely.

But there are also other causes. We have reached a point where our society has expectations of our children that are almost paradoxial. Infants are expected to display independent behaviours, like the ability to sleep fall asleep alone and then stay alone for 8-12 hours from only a few weeks/months old despite the fact that very few babies are naturally able to manage this. While older children are denied independence as theirh parents are frightened to allow them free play alone and are instead over-scheduling their lives with activities. Then children who have very natural, imo, meltdowns or rebellions in the face of such expectations and restrictions are diagnosed with an illness instead of the real cause of the problems being identified and changed.

Yes. It appears to me as if a near tyrannical idea of a human has saturated the culture...the perfect parent...the perfect child...

I completely agree that the psych establishment has lost discernment...so who is running the asylum?

I look at the way kids are in school now....all at tables...it all group work in a small room with 30 other kids.... that would stress me out..We had our own desks, our own personal space.I am an introvert...I am a dreamer...I need my solitude and this would have wigged me out as a child.

They claim this is why there are more ASD diagnosis...its showing up more with the group education...

The rebellions and meltdowns are entirely understandable, but they get labelled brats...or disordered...and sometimes yeah there might be a bit of that but often there isn't....for all the talk of empathy...its teh neurotypical world that seems to have a deficit from what I can see..

The ability to stay alne for 8-12 hours a day violates everything we know about infant and child development and that can lead so some pretty bad pictures later in life.

TwoGallants

Paradoxically, we live in an age where your individual endeavour is more valuable than your contribution in group situations. Creativity, individuality, an ability to think outside the box is how people are making money these days. We're continuing to educate children as if they're all going to get jobs in factories or offices. Such an old fashioned idea, and the most succesful companies are jettisoning these anachronistic practises with the rise of working from home etc.

To be honest, the idea of group education is an anachronism as well. The only things that school can really do for you is to teach you how to read and write, the rest comes from the social experience. If it were up to me, 50% of the school day would be devoted to leisure/cultural time.

But thats probably another issue, for another thread...

zeffabelli

TwoGallants wrote: »

Paradoxically, we live in an age where your individual endeavour is more valuable than your contribution in group situations. Creativity, individuality, an ability to think outside the box is how people are making money these days. We're continuing to educate children as if they're all going to get jobs in factories or offices. Such an old fashioned idea, and the most succesful companies are jettisoning these anachronistic practises with the rise of working from home etc.

To be honest, the idea of group education is an anachronism as well. The only things that school can really do for you is to teach you how to read and write, the rest comes from the social experience. If it were up to me, 50% of the school day would be devoted to leisure/cultural time.

But thats probably another issue, for another thread...

The research already is there that shows schools are not preparing kids for what businesses want or need.

School is still based on a 19th century industrial model....and life has changed.....

TwoGallants

zeffabelli wrote: »

The research already is there that shows schools are not preparing kids for what businesses want or need.

School is still based on a 19th century industrial model....and life has changed.....

If and when I have a child, I'll either teach them from home or try to find a 'hippy' school for them to go to. The modern education system is profoundly unable to prepare children for the 21st century. The only benefit I can see from school nowadays is the social interaction.

I'm going to try and bring us back to the point though! Somebody mentioned that our expectations of kids nowadays are insane, and I absolutely agree. If the child demonstrates something a little 'autisticky', as in, they like to spend time by themselves, they're interested in collecting stuff, or they don't hold great eye contact... all of a sudden they are 'mentally ill'. To be honest the same goes for ADHD. I remember a particularly great episode of the Sopranos when Tony tells the psychologist to **** off when he says his son has it!

zeffabelli

TwoGallants wrote: »

If and when I have a child, I'll either teach them from home or try to find a 'hippy' school for them to go to. The modern education system is profoundly unable to prepare children for the 21st century. The only benefit I can see from school nowadays is the social interaction.

I'm going to try and bring us back to the point though! Somebody mentioned that our expectations of kids nowadays are insane, and I absolutely agree. If the child demonstrates something a little 'autisticky', as in, they like to spend time by themselves, they're interested in collecting stuff, or they don't hold great eye contact... all of a sudden they are 'mentally ill'. To be honest the same goes for ADHD. I remember a particularly great episode of the Sopranos when Tony tells the psychologist to **** off when he says his son has it!

The hippy schools are just as bad. The 21st century has not stopped valuing achievement and discipline, or stopped having tough cookie managers one has to deal with.

Hippie schools do not help kids adjust to a world in which no one gives a **** about your feelings. They come out an get a cold hard incompetent shock.

ADHD is going to continue to get over diagnosed as boys are not digital and school remains analogue. School has to play catch up.

TwoGallants

zeffabelli wrote: »

The hippy schools are just as bad. The 21st century has not stopped valuing achievement and discipline, or stopped having tough cookie managers one has to deal with.

Hippie schools do not help kids adjust to a world in which no one gives a **** about your feelings. They come out an get a cold hard incompetent shock.

ADHD is going to continue to get over diagnosed as boys are not digital and school remains analogue. School has to play catch up.

I disagree. The hippie schools encourage creativity and individuality, two traits that will be more or less immune to the technological changes that will transform the workplace over the coming decades - but as I say, this probably merits a different thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Also, any education system that embraces normal human variation rather than treating it as a pathology has a lot going for it, I think.

zeffabelli

TwoGallants wrote: »

I disagree. The hippie schools encourage creativity and individuality, two traits that will be more or less immune to the technological changes that will transform the workplace over the coming decades - but as I say, this probably merits a different thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Also, any education system that embraces normal human variation rather than treating it as a pathology has a lot going for it, I think.

They encourage a specific kind of creativity and individuality within the limited parametres of their ability to recognise an acknowledge what creativity and individuality is. If you fit within their limited scope mores that is...

Creativity and individuality are not separate from technology whatsover....they are very much in cahoots.

Creativity and individualty- yes we need them.... but we do also need other elements to support them or they wont be fostered...and some of those elements are perseverence, riding it out when it gets tough and yes working for assholes who are tough cookies. You think at certain levels masters of their arts are not exacting and competitive? Think again.

And don't be fooled into thinking they dont diagnose and medicate kids, a lot of parents who diagnose and medicate kids are attracted to these schools.

El_Duderino 09

ComfortKid wrote: »

ADHD = Bauld Bastard Syndrome



Of course their parents are never going to think their little angel might be bold, must be something wrong with him. He needs meds. When all he needs is a good, educating parent!

Yeah its like dyslexia. Everyone knows dyslexia is code for 'thick'. All they need is a nun to beat them into reading properly.

Same with left handedness. Funny enough the solution to that was also nuns beating the left hand them any time they tried to use it.

ADD and ADHD are not made up (they aren't the same either). There are problems in the way they are diagnosed and can often share symptoms with other neurological
Disorders and behavioural disorders. Sometimes the child might well grow out of it anyway and sometimes the child simply needs regular exercise to burn off their extra energy. Either way it's better to find problems and fix them than pretend they don't exist

OP, pretending psychology doesn't exist is a bit mad. Do you not believe psychological processes exist or just psychological processes you haven't personally experienced?

ComfortKid

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

ADD and ADHD are not made up (they aren't the same either). There are problems in the way they are diagnosed and can often share symptoms with other neurological Disorders and behavioural disorders. Sometimes the child might well grow out of it anyway and sometimes the child simply needs regular exercise to burn off their extra energy. Either way it's better to find problems and fix them than pretend they don't exist

Did you not read any of my posts at all? I said all they need is a good parent and a change of lifestyle, not to be medicated and told that there's something wrong with them.

El_Duderino 09

ComfortKid wrote: »

Did you not read any of my posts at all? I said all they need is a good parent and a change of lifestyle, not to be medicated and told that there's something wrong with them.

Same could be said of cancer prevention and treatment.
First you need to diagnose the problem then solve it.

ComfortKid

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

Same could be said of cancer prevention and treatment. First you need to diagnose the problem then solve it.

So you're comparing being hyper and having a short attention span to cancer? The same couldn't be said. Ones horrible disease ones a behavioural problem.

El_Duderino 09

ComfortKid wrote: »

So you're comparing being hyper and having a short attention span to cancer? The same couldn't be said. Ones horrible disease ones a behavioural problem.

Nope. I said your answer about behavioural and lifestyle changes, apply to both. Neither are guaranteed to fix the problem without medication and the best course for both is to diagnose the problem and look for a solution.

Apart from that ADHD in particular, can be diagnosed through abnormalities in the brain which result in behavioural problems like trouble concentrating and over activity. So it's not a purely behavioural problem as you're making it out to be.

ComfortKid

Now this could be miles off the mark, and sorry if I offend anyone. But I wonder if theres any link between ADHD/ADD and their upbringing? Any of these kids that I know (just the ones that I know) come from a single mother or lower class familys? Is there any stats available I wonder. Do many kids from well off families with 2 parents get this 'illness' or whatever it is? Again, not trying to offend anyone, just asking the question. Then again most people I know or associate with are from 'lower class' so im just curious.

El_Duderino 09

ComfortKid wrote: »

Now this could be miles off the mark, and sorry if I offend anyone. But I wonder if theres any link between ADHD/ADD and their upbringing? Any of these kids that I know (just the ones that I know) come from a single mother or lower class familys? Is there any stats available I wonder. Do many kids from well off families with 2 parents get this 'illness' or whatever it is? Again, not trying to offend anyone, just asking the question. Then again most people I know or associate with are from 'lower class' so im just curious.

Yes definitely. The symptoms often overlap hence misdiagnosis.

PucaMama

Why do people have so many "opinions" on other people nowadays?
Why do people feel the need to stick their nose in so much nowadays?

ComfortKid

PucaMama wrote:

Why do people have so many "opinions" on other people nowadays? Why do people feel the need to stick their nose in so much nowadays?

What kind of a statement is that to make? People have opinions on everything since forever, otherwise we would still be living as neanderthals. We just have ways of sharing our opinions now.
I certainly didn't say no one has depression, just that doctors are VERY quick to diagnose it with doing any tests. I have first hand experience of this.

PucaMama

ComfortKid wrote: »

What kind of a statement is that to make? People have opinions on everything since forever, otherwise we would still be living as neanderthals. We just have ways of sharing our opinions now.
I certainly didn't say no one has depression, just that doctors are VERY quick to diagnose it with doing any tests. I have first hand experience of this.

A doctor is a professional who knows exactly what they are doing and knows a lot more than some internet psychology "skeptic"

ComfortKid

PucaMama wrote:

A doctor is a professional who knows exactly what they are doing and knows a lot more than some internet psychology "skeptic"

Are you actually for real? It's a well known fact that doctors are over prescribing xanx and valum up and down the country, and alot of the time these people don't need em. As I said, I have first hand experience of miss diagnosed depression.

PucaMama

ComfortKid wrote: »

Are you actually for real? It's a well known fact that doctors are over prescribing xanx and valum up and down the country, and alot of the time these people don't need em. As I said, I have first hand experience of miss diagnosed depression.

Your experience is relevant to you and no others

ComfortKid

PucaMama wrote:

Your experience is relevant to you and no others

Yes that's true. I'm not the only one with this experience though, and I know lots of young people make up the symptoms to get access to free drugs. Up john 90s are fast becoming Irelands most popular drug and these are got on prescriptions.

Turtwig

iguana wrote: »

They could start by doing a basic medical check up on anyone who reports depression like symptoms before handing out mood altering medication.

Firstly apologies for truncating your posts. I'm replying to to all of just don't want people having people to scroll like mad.:)

That's exactly what they SHOULD do. Doctors, like car mechanics, come in all different sorts. I could write horror stories on some of my experiences! Unfortunately in the case of doctors it's peoples' bodies that are on the line. Any symptom or illness, can themselves be a symptom of another illness. A patient could have been depressed because they were anaemic and anaemic because of another underlying condition e.g cancer, lupus, IBD. etc. Treat the underlying cause and the symptoms might go away. It's important to point out though that while the underlying condition is being treated - or ye to be diagnosed - the other symptoms may still persist. In this scenario it's probably still best for the symptoms to be treated (even if it's in essence only a cosmetic fix). The reason being that depression, anaemia, whatever, left untreated usually leads to further complications again. My GP has explained to me that in medicine his first port of call is to treat symptoms that present while ruling out possible underlying causes. Obviously something like cancer being rare isn't something that's going to be on their radar initially (not without some physical indications of concern anyway) but as you rightly stated a series of common blood checks is bloody obvious! That is of course assuming that they don't have a high degree of confidence in what their diagnosis is.

Mental health is a stickler. The idea is to move towards brain scans, blood tests, adrenal testing, and cognitive therapies. When they'll actually get there is anyone's guess. Any illness, be it mental or physical, has both physical and mental manifestations. Far too often medical practitioners ignore those outside their discipline.

TwoGallants wrote: »

I disagree. The hippie schools encourage creativity and individuality, two traits that will be more or less immune to the technological changes that will transform the workplace over the coming decades - but as I say, this probably merits a different thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Also, any education system that embraces normal human variation rather than treating it as a pathology has a lot going for it, I think.

Society isn't built that way. Nor is any modern economy. School and education in general gears us towards the 'safer' career paths. Not an occupation where you'll make a bomb. Just an occupation where'll you be able to survive with a decent enough quality of life. The reason that we can't all be novellists or individuals or artists or whatever profession you ascribe here is because creativity's payoff is based on population inversion. One singer needs a few thousand listeners. Regardless of whether there is only 10 singers, or 1 million, they still need a desired number of listeners to make their living. The problem is that the more singers you have the more dilution of listeners that will generally take place. To put it simply, if everyone was a career dependent singer, no one would ever make money from singing. Regardless of the number of singers, only a very small percentage will ever be in a position to make a career out of the discipline. That's the way the discipline works. Same for comedians, novelists, actors etc. These are niche areas where most people who try simply will not make it. Success stories may serve to motivate others, people should always chase their dreams but they should be realistic about their expectations. Most artists of any kind make sweet fck all money - and technology, or lack thereof, won't change that.

ComfortKid wrote: »

Are you actually for real? It's a well known fact that doctors are over prescribing xanx and valum up and down the country, and alot of the time these people don't need em. As I said, I have first hand experience of miss diagnosed depression.

Got a source for this 'fact'? The consensus of the information I've read indicate otherwise. All I'm aware of that exists is a journalist "investigation" where a journalist gave almost carbon copy explanations of the symptoms of depression. A bit like me walking into a GP and giving carbon copy explanations of a heart attack and wondering if their initial diagnosis will be anything other than an urgent ECG and possible referral to A&E.