My wife drove stolen Mini for 6 months

B00056718

Will do everything in chronological order trying to keep it short. Would appreciate your opinions on what my next action should be, not on where I already failed, please.

On January my wife found a Mini she really liked and, after meeting the seller outside a hotel, we bought it. The seller had the logbook with him. All I noticed on the logbook was the reg of the car, 2 previous owners, Make and Model. All matched the car. We test drove the car, signed the logbook, paid and parted our ways.

Few weeks later the car developed some problems that were addressed, but no sign of the logbook. I checked the motortax.ie, where it stated that no transactions in last three months were made. Rang shannon and they didn't have anything.

So I rang the motor tax office, gave them the reg and they sent the ownership declaration form.

Once the form was received, my wife rang a Mini dealer that I will not name for now, to get the chassis number confirmed and stamped. Appointment was made and when the day and time came, she was there. That took 5 hours to do and when asked, the guys told that Mini has very particular register system that requires many steps, including the key scan, multiple number matching etc.

Once the stamp was done, she headed to a solicitor to complete the final stage required, and sent the whole lot out to the Shannon office yesterday.


The fun starts here: car was lifted at a checkpoint this morning as stolen. It was a clone.


Not much I can do about it at this stage, but my frustration is at the dealer. 5 hours work and they failed to see that the numbers don't match.

To make things worst, it was 85€ cash and she never got a receipt. Been on the phone to the dealer all day and at the end they are requesting the invoice number as there's no job on the system. After agreeing to continue tomorrow, the guy I was dealing with turned on his out of office until 6th of July, which is 2 days past the 30 day CCTV cycle.

All I asked was the 85€ back as obviously they never inspected the vehicle.


So looking to hear your opinions and hopefully I can build my own better. Ring Shannon to try and get the stamped form back? See if the solicitor has a copy? Leave it and take as a lesson, knowing that the dealer will keep scamming others?

It gives me chills, thinking about what if she had an accident? The insurance would have been void.

audi12

B00056718 wrote: »

Will do everything in chronological order trying to keep it short. Would appreciate your opinions on what my next action should be, not on where I already failed, please.

On January my wife found a Mini she really liked and, after meeting the seller outside a hotel, we bought it. The seller had the logbook with him. All I noticed on the logbook was the reg of the car, 2 previous owners, Make and Model. All matched the car. We test drove the car, signed the logbook, paid and parted our ways.

Few weeks later the car developed some problems that were addressed, but no sign of the logbook. I checked the motortax.ie, where it stated that no transactions in last three months were made. Rang shannon and they didn't have anything.

So I rang the motor tax office, gave them the reg and they sent the ownership declaration form.

Once the form was received, my wife rang a Mini dealer that I will not name for now, to get the chassis number confirmed and stamped. Appointment was made and when the day and time came, she was there. That took 5 hours to do and when asked, the guys told that Mini has very particular register system that requires many steps, including the key scan, multiple number matching etc.

Once the stamp was done, she headed to a solicitor to complete the final stage required, and sent the whole lot out to the Shannon office yesterday.


The fun starts here: car was lifted at a checkpoint this morning as stolen. It was a clone.


Not much I can do about it at this stage, but my frustration is at the dealer. 5 hours work and they failed to see that the numbers don't match.

To make things worst, it was 85€ cash and she never got a receipt. Been on the phone to the dealer all day and at the end they are requesting the invoice number as there's no job on the system. After agreeing to continue tomorrow, the guy I was dealing with turned on his out of office until 6th of July, which is 2 days past the 30 day CCTV cycle.

All I asked was the 85€ back as obviously they never inspected the vehicle.


So looking to hear your opinions and hopefully I can build my own better. Ring Shannon to try and get the stamped form back? See if the solicitor has a copy? Leave it and take as a lesson, knowing that the dealer will keep scamming others?

It gives me chills, thinking about what if she had an accident? The insurance would have been void.

you seem more worried about the 85 euro than the fact that a min worth how much is gone

B00056718

I can do feck all about the Mini gone.
It's not the 85€. Its the 5 hour waiting and the car wasn't touched in the only step where it could have been spotted. The step is there for a reason. And it would have prevented my wife being treated as a potential criminal at the road side.

worded

Did the chassis number match the log book?
Was the log book forged?

I'm just a punter but how could you have stopped this happening when buying private ?

How can I avoid the same happening to me?

Pov06

That's a brutal situation to be in.

Will there be any troubles with the Gardai? I'm not sure if the insurance policy would be valid if the registration of the car is wrong (due to it being cloned).

It just shows you how careful you have to be when buying a motor worth anything decent. That's one of the pitfalls with buying privately

B00056718

worded wrote: »

Did the chassis number match the log book?
Was the log book forged?

I'm just a punter but how could you have stopped this happening when buying private ?

How can I avoid the same happening to me?

This is the thing. I never checked the chassis number against the logbook, it is one of the steps where I failed and probably the most important one, as the motorceck and the likes would look at the totally different car by the reg number and would not flag. That's why the tax office, Shannon and the insurance company didn't suspect anything wrong.

Pov06 wrote: »

That's a brutal situation to be in.

Will there be any troubles with the Gardai? I'm not sure if the insurance policy would be valid if the registration of the car is wrong (due to it being cloned).

It just shows you how careful you have to be when buying a motor worth anything decent. That's one of the pitfalls with buying privately

Insurance would definitely be voided.

Garda took a quick statement. They will speak to the Mini dealer too. Told me they will be in contact for another statement.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Do those car check or cartell help avoid this issue?

Pov06

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Do those car check or cartell help avoid this issue?

Not if the car has a false registration cloned from a genuine car.

colm_mcm

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Do those car check or cartell help avoid this issue?

Yes. It usually gives a chassis number and engine number.
The car will have the chassis number in a number of places on the car.

Barr

What a sh!t situation.


How would the seller have the log book if the car was stolen

This bit I don't get

CiniO

Why do you think your insurance would be void?
It probably wouldn't cover the car itself in case it was damaged, but surely third party part of the policy would have to work as normal. In the end of the day, your wife was not aware that car was not genuine.

B00056718

CiniO wrote: »

Why do you think your insurance would be void?
It probably wouldn't cover the car itself in case it was damaged, but surely third party part of the policy would have to work as normal. In the end of the day, your wife was not aware that car was not genuine.

I will speak to the insurer tomorrow myself. So far I'm assuming it would be void, as the reg she gave to the insurer, is from a totally different vehicle.
The one she drove could have not even been roadworthy.

worded

Ok say I'm the thief

I rob a car and see an identical make / model
Clone the plates -- easy bit

Now where do I get the lot book from? Photoshop ?
And if its forged would I not print the correct chassis # on it.

The other option is to break into the house that has the matching car and get its paperwork

Can you explain the log book op ?

Barr

B00056718 wrote: »

I will speak to the insurer tomorrow myself. So far I'm assuming it would be void, as the reg she gave to the insurer, is from a totally different vehicle.
The one she drove could have not even been roadworthy.

You acted in good faith so your Insurance will not be an issue.

Its one of the basic principles of Insurance.

Pov06

Is it possible that the seller reported the car as stolen after they sold it?

It would explain why the dealer didn't detect any mismatches.

Barr

What chance does any private punter have if they buy a car privately, see the log book and the car turns out to be stolen?

Cuddlesworth

B00056718 wrote: »

I will speak to the insurer tomorrow myself. So far I'm assuming it would be void, as the reg she gave to the insurer, is from a totally different vehicle.
The one she drove could have not even been roadworthy.

Nah, she got insurance on a mini. She gave the reg in good faith, not knowing it was false. The fact it was stolen is a moot point. In the event the insurance company would have to prove she was knowingly driving around in a stolen vehicle. You're not getting a claim through for a stolen car though, not in this context.

Cuddlesworth

Barr wrote: »

What chance does any private punter have if they buy a car privately, see the log book and the car turns out to be stolen?

None.

General rule of thumb.

If it's too good to be true, it's a scam or stolen.

Don't meet in a public place. Thats so you can't identify them later.

Pay by bank transfer if its the same bank, lodge it into their account if it's another bank(5 days rules otherwise).

RandomAccess

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Do those car check or cartell help avoid this issue?

I don't think they would if its a cloned car.
The details you submit would correlate to a car that isn't listed as stolen.

The reality is that the procedure for buying/selling cars is just too flimsy to have any faith in. Even if you do everything right you can still get screwed.

I'd nearly want fingerprints and a photo of the buyer or seller before I'd feel safe to hand over keys or cash. The system is broken.

Stheno

Barr wrote: »

What chance does any private punter have if they buy a car privately, see the log book and the car turns out to be stolen?

As said above, none.

You've no come back at all

worded

Don't meet in a public place -'so where do you suggest with the car ? Where would a thief be reluctant to meet with a stolen car?

This is the way I do private business.

To me a good one is paying by bankers draft or getting paid by one if selling. You like my car? Ok we go to your bank now and you get a band draft made out to me while I'm standing beside you in front of the teller OR cash. That way I know the draft is good, you know it matches the name on the log bog and its being filmed in a bank. We hand over log book / draft and job done.

Special Circumstances

How did the gardai pick up on this in a situation where most people are glanced over at most, but dealers spotted nothing?

5 hours is just plain incredible. Id have had the bulk of 85 yoyos worth of dealer coffee and biccies consumed at that stage.

B00056718

Thanks for the replies about the insurance. Was sure they would just shake it.

What will happen to the policy? She has no car at the minute, but I need to get something sorted ASAP. Will they just freeze it until she gets another car?

To answer the question about how did he have a logbook - I wish I new. It looked genuine, not a photoshop job.

Car was stolen, during a burglary, before we got it I believe. It happened in a relatively small village, where my wife also works, so she was possibly passing the poor owners home every morning she went to work. She's still quite messed up form the whole experience.

I have very little tolerance for people not bothering to do very simple, but important tasks assigned to them. That's where my frustration is building against the lads in the dealership. I want it escalated, so at least the senior management is aware, and can fix the problem.

Marybtaea

This is insane, i guess you can never be too careful, im on the hunt for a new car after i got married there, difficult to trust people

worded

A bank draft is as good as cash if its not stolen or forged.

I was going to buy an octavia years ago off a foreign guy in limerick. Anyway, he had to go to Poland so his brother was doing the deal. I smelt a rat and if it turns out he didn't have permission to sell it and I paid cash the car had to be returned to the owner and I would be minus the car.

I need to see ID like a licence and log book and even a utility bill at a push.

It you ask got these a genuine seller wouldn't have a problem but a thief will get nervous.

Barr

B00056718 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies about the insurance. Was sure they would just shake it.

What will happen to the policy? She has no car at the minute, but I need to get something sorted ASAP. Will they just freeze it until she gets another car?

To answer the question about how did he have a logbook - I wish I new. It looked genuine, not a photoshop job.

Car was stolen, during a burglary, before we got it I believe. It happened in a relatively small village, where my wife also works, so she was possibly passing the poor owners home every morning she went to work. She's still quite messed up form the whole experience.

I have very little tolerance for people not bothering to do very simple, but important tasks assigned to them. That's where my frustration is building against the lads in the dealership. I want it escalated, so at least the senior management is aware, and can fix the problem.

If you have no car now , it generally means the policy is not in force anymore.

There is nothing there to insure as such.

If you have a replacement car it will be fine to the a change to this.

Barr

The log book must have been in the car when they stole it or they took it during the burglary.

The only logical explanation I can think of.

OP you should ask the guards about the logbook. They must be able to offer a theory on this , can’t be the first time someone was caught.

Stheno

B00056718 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies about the insurance. Was sure they would just shake it.

What will happen to the policy? She has no car at the minute, but I need to get something sorted ASAP. Will they just freeze it until she gets another car?

To answer the question about how did he have a logbook - I wish I new. It looked genuine, not a photoshop job.

Car was stolen, during a burglary, before we got it I believe. It happened in a relatively small village, where my wife also works, so she was possibly passing the poor owners home every morning she went to work. She's still quite messed up form the whole experience.

I have very little tolerance for people not bothering to do very simple, but important tasks assigned to them. That's where my frustration is building against the lads in the dealership. I want it escalated, so at least the senior management is aware, and can fix the problem.

You can suspend the insurance, so she keeps her ncb and just reactivates it.

I'm not sure how much more you wanted the dealer to do. Is it that they didn't check the VIN on the engine against the logbook?

B00056718

Barr wrote: »

The log book must have been in the car when they stole it or they took it during the burglary.

The only logical explanation I can think of.

OP you should ask the guards about the logbook. They must be able to offer a theory as this can’t be the first time someone was caught.

It was a logbook to match the cloned number plate. That's the confusing part. Guards had no theories. One of them was being quite unpleasant towards my wife until I arrived and we talked the whole story trough again. I guess he's just doing his job and everybody is a suspect until proven otherwise.

Go for it

Incredible story! Sounds like every private buyer's worst nightmare!

Barr wrote: »

The log book must have been in the car when they stole it or they took it during the burglary.

The only logical explanation I can think of.

OP you should ask the guards about the logbook. They must be able to offer a theory on this , can’t be the first time someone was caught.

Actually, on top of this, can you ask the guards to give you some idea on how to avoid this happening to you again in future, and pass on to us here? This kind of info could help one of us here avoid this happening and as Barr says, the guards have surely come across this before and will be happy to help.

B00056718

Stheno wrote: »

You can suspend the insurance, so she keeps her ncb and just reactivates it.

I'm not sure how much more you wanted the dealer to do. Is it that they didn't check the VIN on the engine against the logbook?

It's that they didn't check the VIN against the reg. The only task they were supposed to perform. They just waited 5 hours and stamped the form at the end.

The fact that there's no job on the system tells me that the cash was just split between the lads on the floor and never went in to the register. So I would imagine that the shareholders would be interested to know themselves.

B00056718

Go for it wrote: »

Incredible story! Sounds like every private buyer's worst nightmare!





Actually, on top of this, can you ask the guards to give you some idea on how to avoid this happening to you again in future, and pass on to us here? This kind of info could help one of us here avoid this happening and as Barr says, the guards have surely come across this before and will be happy to help.

I did ask. they said that the only way is to check the VIN number against the logbook.

He also was getting thick towards her for not taking the logbook with us when we bought the car. Not sure why, as the procedure is that the seller keeps and posts it. i think it's even written on it.

Stheno

B00056718 wrote: »

I did ask. they said that the only way is to check the VIN number against the logbook.

He also was getting thick towards her for not taking the logbook with us when we bought the car. Not sure why, as the procedure is that the seller keeps and posts it. i think it's even written on it.

You have to sign the VLC though, nothing to stop you checking the VIN on the car against the VLC there.

If it was cloned then checking the VIN against the reg would have been useless no?

The VIN would have been recorded as belonging to the reg?

How did the officials who seized it cop it?

I might well be being a bit thick here

r3nu4l

Well I know that in England quite often cloned cars don't just have the reg cloned. A lot of them also have cloned VINs too. It used to be that these were easy to spot but the more professional car ringers were able to do some very good jobs. I saw a program on BBC I think, where a specially trained police officer spent three hours going over a car and it was only at the very end of is inspection that he spotted something that made him double-check again and he identified the car as stolen and ringed.

It's big business and the professional crooks can easily forge a V5C (DVLA equivalent of the Irish logbook).

It's why I'll never buy privately unless I'm damn sure of the identity, bank details and address of the seller and even then I'd be nervous.

B00056718

Special Circumstances wrote: »

How did the gardai pick up on this in a situation where most people are glanced over at most, but dealers spotted nothing?

5 hours is just plain incredible. Id have had the bulk of 85 yoyos worth of dealer coffee and biccies consumed at that stage.

Random checkpoint. Tax was just out and she explained about the whole logbook problem. It turned out that the other car has no valid NCT. My wife's car had a valid NCT disc in the window. I guess that's where they started digging.

I suppose, It's another failure on my side. I never took the disc out to inspect. Just had a quick look at it.

B00056718

Stheno wrote: »

You have to sign the VLC though, nothing to stop you checking the VIN on the car against the VLC there.

If it was cloned then checking the VIN against the reg would have been useless no?

The VIN would have been recorded as belonging to the reg?

How did the officials who seized it cop it?

I might well be being a bit thick here

I did sign it. Never bothered checking the VIN though. Expensive mistake

goochy

will never for as long as i live understand why someone would not buy a car from sellers house and while there ask to see bills etc. as prove of address. i feel sorry for you but as long as plp are careless as you have been this will happen.

ted1

B00056718 wrote: »

I can do feck all about the Mini gone.
It's not the 85€. Its the 5 hour waiting and the car wasn't touched in the only step where it could have been spotted. The step is there for a reason. And it would have prevented my wife being treated as a potential criminal at the road side.

Did they say that they would do it on the spot? 5 hours work in a main dealer would be 400+ quid.

Barr

B00056718 wrote: »

I did sign it. Never bothered checking the VIN though. Expensive mistake

If the reg matched on the log book , my guess is the vin would also.

Not sure checking the vin would have avoided this situation.

knifey_spoonie

The only thing the Dealer does is certify the number stamped on the vehicle chassis, they don't have to check it match's manufacturers database's or the NVDF files. So all that matters is did they list the chassis number that was on physically stamped onto the vehicle or did they use the number attached to the false reg.

Why it took 5 hours, or why the hell they even charged for it is beyond me, takes no more than 5 minutes to do on most any vehicle.

B00056718

ted1 wrote: »

Did they say that they would do it on the spot? 5 hours work in a main dealer would be 400+ quid.

It was a specific time booking. What's the point if you're still there 5 hours later?

B00056718

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

The only thing the Dealer does is certify the number stamped on the vehicle chassis, they don't have to check it match's manufacturers database's or the NVDF files. So all that matters is did they list the chassis number that was on physically stamped onto the vehicle or did they use the number attached to the false reg.

Why it took 5 hours, or why the hell they even charged for it is beyond me, takes no more than 5 minutes to do on most any vehicle.

Would they not check if the VIN is for the reg number on the car? If not, I can see very little point in the whole procedure.

Stheno

B00056718 wrote: »

Would they not check if the VIN is for the reg number on the car? If not, I can see very little point in the whole procedure.

NO tbh

I honestly think you've suffered a loss due to a very clever scam

cerastes

B00056718 wrote: »

I can do feck all about the Mini gone.
It's not the 85€. Its the 5 hour waiting and the car wasn't touched in the only step where it could have been spotted. The step is there for a reason. And it would have prevented my wife being treated as a potential criminal at the road side.

I think its the lessor of your problems and at this point, Id write off the 85, you've had to write off the price you paid for the car.

B00056718 wrote: »

This is the thing. I never checked the chassis number against the logbook, it is one of the steps where I failed and probably the most important one, as the motorceck and the likes would look at the totally different car by the reg number and would not flag. That's why the tax office, Shannon and the insurance company didn't suspect anything wrong.

Aside from buying, where was it? a hotel car park? I would not hand over substantial money for a car privately in a car park, I wouldnt even hand over money without seeing some proof of ID/ownership and confirmation of address.

Barr wrote: »

What chance does any private punter have if they buy a car privately, see the log book and the car turns out to be stolen?

There a re more than a few things the OP has failed to do that got them into this predicament, my sympathy is with them for the loss, but they should have been absolutely thorough in checking the VIN and all other details.

B00056718 wrote: »

To answer the question about how did he have a logbook - I wish I new. It looked genuine, not a photoshop job.

Car was stolen, during a burglary, before we got it I believe. It happened in a relatively small village, where my wife also works, so she was possibly passing the poor owners home every morning she went to work. She's still quite messed up form the whole experience.

I have very little tolerance for people not bothering to do very simple, but important tasks assigned to them. That's where my frustration is building against the lads in the dealership. I want it escalated, so at least the senior management is aware, and can fix the problem.

You're guilty of this yourself,
you should have checked all the details.

B00056718 wrote: »

I did ask. they said that the only way is to check the VIN number against the logbook.

He also was getting thick towards her for not taking the logbook with us when we bought the car. Not sure why, as the procedure is that the seller keeps and posts it. i think it's even written on it.

In any sale, I always sign and have a stamped envelope and put the VLC in there and both can see it being posted or Id insist on taking it.
As a seller, Id post it in someones presence if they wanted or post it the next day at the latest, but thats because I know Im not up to no good.
If someone wont part with it then you are relying on good faith they will post it and not forget or care less or reconsider.
Once money is handed over, goodwill can be hard to come by.

B00056718 wrote: »

Random checkpoint. Tax was just out and she explained about the whole logbook problem. It turned out that the other car has no valid NCT. My wife's car had a valid NCT disc in the window. I guess that's where they started digging.

I suppose, It's another failure on my side. I never took the disc out to inspect. Just had a quick look at it.

You wouldnt need to take the disc out really, but a thorough inspection might prove its genuine. That said if there was a dodgy VLC, they could do a dodgy NCT cert.

Stheno wrote: »

NO tbh

I honestly think you've suffered a loss due to a very clever scam

I dont think its that clever a scam, it relies on a person being rushed and not completely checking things, there might be elements to it that aid this, but thorough checking and not buying in a car park cover some of this.

goochy

goochy wrote: »

will never for as long as i live understand why someone would not buy a car from sellers house and while there ask to see bills etc. as prove of address. i feel sorry for you but as long as plp are careless as you have been this will happen.

Agree with this 100%.

Atlantic Dawn

Did the name on the logbook of the car you were buying match with the person who was selling it?

B00056718

cerastes wrote: »

I think its the lessor of your problems and at this point, Id write off the 85, you've had to write off the price you paid for the car.



Aside from buying, where was it? a hotel car park? I would not hand over substantial money for a car privately in a car park, I wouldnt even hand over money without seeing some proof of ID/ownership and confirmation of address.



There a re more than a few things the OP has failed to do that got them into this predicament, my sympathy is with them for the loss, but they should have been absolutely thorough in checking the VIN and all other details.



You're guilty of this yourself,
you should have checked all the details.



In any sale, I always sign and have a stamped envelope and put the VLC in there and both can see it being posted or Id insist on taking it.
As a seller, Id post it in someones presence if they wanted or post it the next day at the latest, but thats because I know Im not up to no good.
If someone wont part with it then you are relying on good faith they will post it and not forget or care less or reconsider.
Once money is handed over, goodwill can be hard to come by.



You wouldnt need to take the disc out really, but a thorough inspection might prove its genuine. That said if there was a dodgy VLC, they could do a dodgy NCT cert.



I dont think its that clever a scam, it relies on a person being rushed and not completely checking things, there might be elements to it that aid this, but thorough checking and not buying in a car park cover some of this.

Fair point.
I can't really argue and notice contradicting myself.
I'm just tired and angry. Time to get some sleep.

On a separate note: where this leaves the owner? He's been sorted by his/her insurance company, has possibly got a replacement. And all of a sudden the car is found. Will the car be returned and the insurance compensation will have to be paid back? That would hardly be good news to them. 2 cars now and a debt. One of them heavily depreciated as there's a record of it being stolen in the past.
Or will the insurance company just get somebody to tidy up the paperwork and sell it?

Senecio

B00056718 wrote: »

Or will the insurance company just get somebody to tidy up the paperwork and sell it?

^^ This

newmug

cerastes wrote: »

In any sale, I always sign and have a stamped envelope and put the VLC in there and both can see it being posted or Id insist on taking it.

Thats a very good idea!

cerastes

newmug wrote: »

Thats a very good idea!

It saves on the wondering, both parties if legit have no reason to object.
The seller is assured the car is sold officially and they will receive no parking/speeding or toll fines, the buyer can see the document is signed and posted.
So unless either returns and breaks open the postbox, both are happy the job's done.

I decided on this policy after I bought a car from a garage years ago and I had to hound them to get the old logbook, but at least I had a point of contact. In a private sale, I would not want to rely on someone as it could go on the back burner easily.
I'd also either print up or at worst write up a receipt, and get both to sign it, ie me/us and them, unless it was a dealer and there is a receipt expected.

K.Flyer

Nearly everyone has a mobile phone with a good camera...


Check the sellers driving licence details against the owner details on the log book. (Not Matching, No Sale)
Check log book details match the vin number.
Fill your details into the new owner section of the log book.
Take a photograph of both sides and all relevant sections of the log book.