Crate Training Question for Opie

ShaShaBear

This is a really long one guys, want to get all the info out there.

So, mostly everyone knows that Opie was utterly wild when he came to live with us. He's a year old next month and we have seen a wealth of improvement. However, there are still some issues (as well as logical worries that may in fact be unfounded) that I would totally expect given he is still a puppy.

We bought a crate for him after a few weeks when we saw how quickly he adapted to it in my MIL's house. It was instrumental in finishing his toilet training and protecting the house if we had to pop out for an hour or two.
The crate is open and he has access to it all day, but will not go into it of his own volition. For a spell of time, we started allowing him to sleep in it with the crate open (this is a while ago) and for about a week, this went swimmingly. Admittedly, every morning he was either standing at the door waiting for us, or he was asleep on the sofa (not an issue or concern). Then, one morning we came down to find out he had chewed through the hoover plug, destroyed three of the attachments, and totally mangled the handle. He also chewed the TV aerial wires out of the wall. During this time, he had his puzzle ball, two kongs, a rubber ring, his squeaky ball and his chew rope.
This was cause for serious uproar - the hoover was worth hundreds (I fortunately managed to fix it) and my OH was very concerned that the next time, the damage would be done to the house infrastructure itself (we are renting will full permission to have a dog).
We went back to locking the crate at night.

Since he was neutered (we think the vets may have handled him rather roughly), he will only "go to bed" if he is given a treat. As he is food possessive, this has caused problems with closing the crate. He always growls, and will sometimes strip his teeth. We assume this is purely down to him guarding whatever we just gave him.
Now, I know the solution to "go to bed" is to retrain him to go in on command rather than with treats.

The other issue is, I know in my heart of hearts I shouldn't really still be locking the crate. He is a destructive dog by nature - he pulls clothes off the washing line, will dig holes and has destroyed two dog bowls when outside in the garden. It's not boredom, as usually the back door is open and he is out there by his own choice (and could start misbehaving within minutes once he thinks he's not being watched). When indoors, and monitored, he only plays with his actual toys (must have about 15 at this stage).

We stayed up late last night and Opie fell asleep on the armchair. He was utterly impossible to get to go to bed, and was extremely difficult and standoffish, to the point that my partner was frightened of him. There are no rooms in the house that he could do no damage in. The living room is freshly redecorated at the landlord's expense, the dining room has a carpet and a new table. The kitchen floor has lino that isn't the most expertly fitted and due to his hyperactivity, the bedroom with us and the baby is not an option. We do not have a hallway, simply a flight of stairs

I suppose the most limited damage would be the kitchen. He could realistically rip up the entire lino and possibly damage kitchen counters if he really felt like chewing something other than his plethora of chew toys. I thought last night about moving his bed to this room and closing him in, to see if he would prefer a bit more freedom but we decided against it as I have visitors today and would rather not have to take them in for tea on a concrete floor if he went wild :P

How do people handle a situation like this? He is walked 2-3 times a day, for as far as I can possibly manage (usually an hour both times). I can't physically exercise him any longer than this being pregnant and pushing a buggy, so I'm hoping its not an energy issue?

Sorry again for such a long post, I'm hoping if there's something I'm not seeing that more info will help!

MrWalsh

ShaShaBear wrote: »

He was utterly impossible to get to go to bed, and was extremely difficult and standoffish, to the point that my partner was frightened of him.

This worries me. Do you mean he was becoming aggressive?

I also wouldnt be happy with growling or striping his teeth at you (I presume this means showing his teeth?).

Have you had him seen by a behaviourist or good trainer?

ShaShaBear

MrWalsh wrote: »

This worries me. Do you mean he was becoming aggressive?

I also wouldnt be happy with growling or striping his teeth at you (I presume this means showing his teeth?).

Have you had him seen by a behaviourist or good trainer?

No, just refusing to move and going out of his way to avoid being touched or handled. He doesn't strip or growl over anything except food. He has been to see someone, and we worked with them on many issues. This is a new one, and I was hoping to see if it was something simple I could address at home before paying more money to have him seen by the same lady
He was very, very badly abused as a puppy, these are the issues we have worked with. My partner wouldn't be as experienced with dogs as me, and has always kept small breeds - Opie is a giant, even for a collie.

The growling is because he has an ongoing issue with food guarding - we are working on that and he has improved considerably.

MrWalsh

I wish I had some good advice for you.

What happens if you force him to move, ie, physically pick him up (or is he too big for that)?

maggiepip

Could he be sore somewhere? I've had 2 rescue collies, unluckly both ended up being diagnosed with an old injury and when they were sore their behaviour was very puzzling, it all made perfect sense when correctly diagnosed though.

ShaShaBear

MrWalsh wrote: »

I wish I had some good advice for you.

What happens if you force him to move, ie, physically pick him up (or is he too big for that)?

I've never tried, I'm 4 months pregnant and probably shouldn't, but he really is too big for it. Comes up past my knee and is really lanky. My partner has picked him up before and he simply wriggled, but would be reluctant to shove him into a crate

ShaShaBear

maggiepip wrote: »

Could he be sore somewhere? I've had 2 rescue collies, unluckly both ended up being diagnosed with an old injury and when they were sore their behaviour was very puzzling, it all made perfect sense when correctly diagnosed though.

I thought it might be something like that originally, but a good feel all over and he doesn't seem to be. He's walking as normal and playing as normal, and doesn't seem to be nursing or favouring any parts. He was at the vets last week for jabs as well.

hadook

ShaShaBear wrote: »

The other issue is, I know in my heart of hearts I shouldn't really still be locking the crate. He is a destructive dog by nature - he pulls clothes off the washing line, will dig holes and has destroyed two dog bowls when outside in the garden. It's not boredom, as usually the back door is open and he is out there by his own choice (and could start misbehaving within minutes once he thinks he's not being watched). When indoors, and monitored, he only plays with his actual toys (must have about 15 at this stage).

Leaving aside the growling, why do you feel you can't lock him in at night? I locked our destructo-pup in her crate every night for 2 and a half years without a second thought. We worked up to free time at night when she actually matured and earned trust and not just because she hit a certain calendar age etc.

Re the growling, I'd personally just call your behaviourist back in. You're probably missing something simple but things like this are always diagnosed best by a neutral third party and nipped in the bud early or they're harder to fix.

DBB

I'll say nowt about his behaviour as you already have someone helping you with it, but just be careful about diagnosing that tooth-stripping entirely as resource guarding. His dislike of going into the crate could well be playing its part too.
Advice-wise, I have one word. Playpen.
One of the fold-flat, metal panel ones.

Edited to add: http://m.zooplus.ie/shop/rodents/runs_fencing/metal/8_sided/126789

ShaShaBear

hadook wrote: »

Leaving aside the growling, why do you feel you can't lock him in at night? I locked our destructo-pup in her crate every night for 2 and a half years without a second thought. We worked up to free time at night when she actually matured and earned trust and not just because she hit a certain calendar age etc.

Re the growling, I'd personally just call your behaviourist back in. You're probably missing something simple but things like this are always diagnosed best by a neutral third party and nipped in the bud early or they're harder to fix.

I actually don't know. Anything I ever read about crate-training seemed to suggest that at a certain point the dog should be remaining in the crate through choice rather than being locked in.
I'm wondering if a bigger crate might be something I should look into, now that toileting etc isn't an issue?
He has the medium sized one and can get into it and turn around and sit up (albeit with slightly hunched shoulders). Would he be more comforable with more space perhaps and is feeling a bit cramped in it?

He does fortnightly visits with his fairy dogmother at the minute and is due to see her next week, I can of course take him early, but thought I'd chance my arm that this is something obvious - it's my first time crate training.

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

I'll say nowt about his behaviour as you already have someone helping you with it, but just be careful about diagnosing that tooth-stripping entirely as resource guarding. His dislike of going into the crate could well be playing its part too.
Advice-wise, I have one word. Playpen.
One of the fold-flat, metal panel ones.

Yeah, I was thinking it could be a dislike of the crate. I'm not sure if we'd have the room for a playpen, the house is incredibly small, and we have even less floor space with the furniture and baby things. Would he not be able to jump out of it?
(the premise would be perfect though, free space to move in a contained area away from skirting boards and couches :pac: )

DBB

Fold it down flat by day, set it up when you need it.
The tallest playpen is about 3 feet high, I've kept very agile GSDs in them with no problem. Can't guarantee he won't escape, but it is harder for them to get out if the taller ones from a standing start.
Do you bring him to the trainer, or does she come to you? The latter is infinitely preferable.

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

Fold it down flat by day, set it up when you need it.
The tallest playpen is about 3 feet high, I've kept very agile GSDs in them with no problem. Can't guarantee he won't escape, but it is harder for them to get out if the taller ones from a standing start.
Do you bring him to the trainer, or does she come to you? The latter is infinitely preferable.

She came out to him for an assessment and the second visit too. We went to her for the last two because she was introducing him to other dogs. He was remarkably well-behaved in the house (as we expected, his behaviour was at its worst outside or in strange environments).

I had no idea they were that tall, that sounds perfect. I always thought they were only about a foot high!

hadook

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I actually don't know. Anything I ever read about crate-training seemed to suggest that at a certain point the dog should be remaining in the crate through choice rather than being locked in.
I'm wondering if a bigger crate might be something I should look into, now that toileting etc isn't an issue?
He has the medium sized one and can get into it and turn around and sit up (albeit with slightly hunched shoulders). Would he be more comforable with more space perhaps and is feeling a bit cramped in it?

He does fortnightly visits with his fairy dogmother at the minute and is due to see her next week, I can of course take him early, but thought I'd chance my arm that this is something obvious - it's my first time crate training.

At some point they should also be able to be left in a different room without turning into a destructo-beast in the first 15 minutes by choice too! There's a huge difference between locking a crate at night so you can sleep and not feel like murder the next morning and just leaving them in it indefinitely.

We used a Dane sized crate for ours (she's about the size of a husky/gsd) so she could stand up fully in it or lie fully stretched out but we had it already. A playpen will take up less room and be easier to move so if you're buying new that would be better.

ShaShaBear

We're just looking at playpens now. Even if it doesn't address the current issue, it would be preferable for us to have a nice dog bed in one of these. I imagine it would be pretty easy to leave his bed wherever we want it and just put this down on top of it when it's bed time? Would it be hard for two people to lift when folded out?

DBB, the one you linked me to seems to be for rabbits, is that the right one, or is there a taller one?

DBB

Lol, yes, the biggest rabbit one is just the ticket for dogs. There is a door in one of the panels too.
Two people would move it over the dog alright, but I'd like to think he'll go in and out voluntarily as it's nowhere near as (for Opie) oppressive as a crate.
You can remove one of the hinges (you'll know which one when you see it) to give you more options shape-wise. I've used mine as a long, straight fence to cordon off sections of garden or large rooms. As a containment device, I far prefer them to crates, though crates have their place too.

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

Lol, yes, the biggest rabbit one is just the ticket for dogs. There is a door in one of the panels too.
Two people would move it over the dog alright, but I'd like to think he'll go in and out voluntarily as it's nowhere near as (for Opie) oppressive as a crate.
You can remove one of the hinges (you'll know which one when you see it) to give you more options shape-wise. I've used mine as a long, straight fence to cordon off sections of garden or large rooms. As a containment device, I far prefer them to crates, though crates have their place too.

I much prefer the sound of this. Although, I did see something like this on Amazon and wondering would it be a bit more destructo-proof?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lindam-Pet-Pen/dp/B00NVK1N8Y/ref=sr_1_6?s=baby&ie=UTF8&qid=1434366544&sr=1-6

The idea of being able to close it while standing rather than getting down on my knees with my face right in Opie's is quite appealing :pac:
To be honest, I don't think he'd have any issue. If I hold a biscuit and say "go to bed" he will go straight to his crate and wait there. The issue only seems to arise when you try to close it. So maybe it really is a space issue.

hadook

Maybe you're looking at it this problem all wrong...

http://canineconcepts.co.uk/en/blog/25-train-your-dog-to-close-the-door

DBB

That's a very sturdy looking pen, perhaps a bit smaller than I personally would like, but each to their own!
The one I linked to does not require you to get down on your knees to close. A mild bending down is all I've ever had to do to close it

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

That's a very sturdy looking pen, perhaps a bit smaller than I personally would like, but each to their own!
The one I linked to does not require you to get down on your knees to close. A mild bending down is all I've ever had to do to close it

Oh right, the door just looked a little lower down. But then with a monster bump, everything that isn't eye level looks awful low down :pac:
I wouldn't be getting it that small either, I'm thinking something big enough for a bed, his water bowl, and space to be on the floor outside his bed would be big enough. Basically that when we are closing him into it, he can put about 2 foot between me and him?

ShaShaBear

hadook wrote: »

Maybe you're looking at it this problem all wrong...

http://canineconcepts.co.uk/en/blog/25-train-your-dog-to-close-the-door

He knows how to close the door.
He also knows how to open them :pac:
Not much use for a crate regardless, because without the snibs, he can just walk back out :P

DBB

Does he have a specific "go to bed" cue? I'd be inclined to get this established, and only close the pen door when he's actually in his bed, away from the danger zone.
One advantage of that pen you've linked to is the vertical-only bars. Harder for him to climb out... But would he get his teeth around the bars and chew them?

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

Does he have a specific "go to bed" cue? I'd be inclined to get this established, and only close the pen door when he's actually in his bed, away from the danger zone.
One advantage of that pen you've linked to is the vertical-only bars. Harder for him to climb out... But would he get his teeth around the bars and chew them?

He does, goes straight to bed for "go to bed".
He was exceptionally good at it even without a treat until recently. Now he needs the treat, but will still go straight away. Last night was the very first exception. I reckon it wouldn't be hard to teach him that this is his bed instead.

As for chewing the bars, he was contained to our dining room a few times using our baby gate and never tried to chew it. He would just lean on top of it (definitely couldn't clear it, even with a run). It seems to be like a big octagon baby gate thing. I'd actually be more worried about him chewing through the other thing, although in fairness, he has never, ever chewed his crate. There isn't a scrap of chipping on that!

DBB

They can't get their teeth around the mesh of the other one.

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

They can't get their teeth around the mesh of the other one.

Well we will be in a position to get one at some stage this week, just a matter of sourcing and ordering. The one you linked me says that they do not post to the republic or NI though?

DBB

Oh really? How weird, it's the .ie site! Why on earth advertise a product on an Irish site that you don't send to Ireland? Weird!
I got my last pen from them 3-4 yrs ago so maybe something has changed.
Anyway, go with whichever one suits you best, I just wanted to clarify that the mesh pen is pretty chew-proof for anyone else who might read this thread in future

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

Oh really? How weird, it's the .ie site! Why on earth advertise a product on an Irish site that you don't send to Ireland? Weird!
I got my last pen from them 3-4 yrs ago so maybe something has changed.
Anyway, go with whichever one suits you best, I just wanted to clarify that the mesh pen is pretty chew-proof for anyone else who might read this thread in future

And whichever I get I'll be sure to post a proper update with pictures so people can get an idea of size and suitability!

ShaShaBear

Moved the crate into our living room, left the door open.

Make a liar out of me, why don't you??

muddypaws

Hehehe. Always the way

angeldaisy

Opie is so cute (and clever)! We have two crates here for Elly and Tara, small and large.

Elly has no problem getting into the small one, but the large one we have to lure her into it with a treat!
She won't sleep in the large one if I'm in the room with her, she has to be next to me in bed. But when I sleep in the spare room for peace and quiet, she happily get into her crate to sleep.

Clever collies!!! Or should that be manipulative ones.....

tk123

I have a smallish car crate (compared to the other crates that are packed away) in the kitchen and they love it! They seem to prefer the smaller space - when I had a small puppy crate there Baikey would squeeze himself into it!

ShaShaBear

angeldaisy wrote: »

Opie is so cute (and clever)! We have two crates here for Elly and Tara, small and large.

Elly has no problem getting into the small one, but the large one we have to lure her into it with a treat!
She won't sleep in the large one if I'm in the room with her, she has to be next to me in bed. But when I sleep in the spare room for peace and quiet, she happily get into her crate to sleep.

Clever collies!!! Or should that be manipulative ones.....

I wish we could have Opie in the bed! I'm hoping when he is older we can get there. He settles on the bed for ten minutes and then he wants to play!
Yeah sometimes he's ultra clever.
Sometimes I think I need to have him clinically assessed!

angeldaisy

"ShaShaBear wrote: »

Yeah sometimes he's ultra clever.
Sometimes I think I need to have him clinically assessed!

I think ours might be twins! She is equally the cleverest and stupidest dog I've met!!