Laws relating to kids cyclists on public roads?

CiniO

What's the situation with it?
I looked at thread here listing all the laws and found nothing.
Looked up Rules of the road and found nothing.

What are the laws governing kids cycling on public roads?

RecordStraight

http://irishcycle.com/2015/01/21/no-exemption-for-children-cycling-on-footpaths-says-minister-ahead-of-new-fines/

NO EXEMPTION FOR CHILDREN CYCLING ON FOOTPATHS SAYS MINISTER AHEAD OF NEW FINES
January 21, 2015 · by Cian Ginty · in News
There will be no exemption for to the law which makes cycling on footpaths illegal, the minister for transport, tourism and sport has said in response to a parliamentary question asking if there were plans to exclude “very young or hearing impaired cyclists”.

Cycling on footpaths is already illegal in Ireland (expect shared use paths marked with signs, as pictured above) –, however changes are soon expected to allow offenders to be fined with on-the-spot fines. Currently Gardai have to summons offenders to a district court — which is seen as a waste of Garda and Court resources, and a waste of time for all involved.

Some cycling campaigners and people who cycle on the footpath claim they do so because it is safer and they are intimated off the roads by motorists. In the absence of off-road cycle paths, primary school children around the country generally use footpaths to cycle to school.

316

That is about footpaths, op asked about public roads.

Fian

CiniO wrote: »

What's the situation with it?
I looked at thread here listing all the laws and found nothing.
Looked up Rules of the road and found nothing.

What are the laws governing kids cycling on public roads?

The same laws that govern adults cycling on public roads.

Do you imagine the laws should be different? I am curious in what way. Or is it that you think kids cycling on the roads should be illegal?

galwaycyclist

To our collective shame as a "society", Irish traffic law does not draw any distinction between children or adults using public roads.

In traffic law, children using public roads have the same rights and responsibilities as adults.

More shamefully, in contrast to countries like Germany, Irish traffic law does not recognise a specific duty of care towards children.

To add to the shame, the Irish state imposes a legal requirement on children that requires travel (in most cases) without providing any specific legal protection to children attempting to fulfill that legal obligation.

So to to illustrate, a seven year old going to school on her bike or on foot is exercising her right, as a citizen, to use public roads. She is also fulfilling a legal obligation placed on her by the state and by Irish "adult" society. However the state, and Irish "adult" society do not appear to recognise any specific duty towards that child in availing of her rights or in fulfilling the duties placed on her by the state.

Does that explanation provide what was sought or was the op looking for something else?

CiniO

Fian wrote: »

The same laws that govern adults cycling on public roads.

Do you imagine the laws should be different? I am curious in what way. Or is it that you think kids cycling on the roads should be illegal?

What I think is not that important.
What I want to find out though, is what the actual law says...

So from what you are saying, does that mean that 5 year old can just hop on the bike, and cycle in busy city traffic?

galwaycyclist

CiniO wrote: »

So from what you are saying, does that mean that 5 year old can just hop on the bike, and cycle in busy city traffic?

Yes

RecordStraight

316 wrote: »

That is about footpaths, op asked about public roads.

Indeed - but seeing as it is illegal to cycle on footpaths, then they are obliged to cycle on the roads.

CiniO

galwaycyclist wrote: »

To our collective shame as a "society", Irish traffic law does not draw any distinction between children or adults using public roads.

In traffic law, children using public roads have the same rights and responsibilities as adults.

More shamefully, in contrast to countries like Germany, Irish traffic law does not recognise a specific duty of care towards children.

To add to the shame, the Irish state imposes a legal requirement on children that requires travel (in most cases) without providing any specific legal protection to children attempting to fulfill that legal obligation.

So to to illustrate, a seven year old going to school on her bike or on foot is exercising her right, as a citizen, to use public roads. She is also fulfilling a legal obligation placed on her by the state and by Irish "adult" society. However the state, and Irish "adult" society do not appear to recognise any specific duty towards that child in availing of her rights or in fulfilling the duties placed on her by the state.

Does that explanation provide what was sought or was the op looking for something else?

Thanks, that explains a good bit.

So my understanding is than with my last question, 5 year old can actually cycle in traffic. Obviously it would be crazy to let such child do it unsupervised, but strange there is not any law about it.

F.e. in Poland where I'm originally from, laws are way more clear.
Children up to 10 years of age, can not cycle on public roads at all. They can only use footpath and must be supervised by adult - in this particular case adult can cycle on footpath as well.
Children above 10 years of age, can cycle on public roads (supervised or not supervised) but only provided they obtained a "bicycle card" which is kind of driving licence for bicycles for anyone under 18 years of age. To obtain it, they have to go through training, and pass a test from knowledge of rules of the road.

I'm very surprised that no such laws (or similar) exist in Ireland.

Wishbone Ash

CiniO wrote: »

... and cycle in busy city traffic?

The cyclist is part of that traffic.

RecordStraight

CiniO wrote: »

I'm very surprised that no such laws (or similar) exist in Ireland.

Ireland is backwards in many regards, this is only one of them. Have you seen the other thread where the guy is saying that he would force small children onto any type of road if he saw them on a bike?

316

RecordStraight wrote: »

Indeed - but seeing as it is illegal to cycle on footpaths, then they are obliged to cycle on the roads.

A footpath is for pedestrians hence the name, your post was irrelevant to the thread.

CiniO

RecordStraight wrote: »

Indeed - but seeing as it is illegal to cycle on footpaths, then they are obliged to cycle on the roads.

But is it already illegal for kids to cycle on footpath (was this law already introduced)?
I cycle with my 6 year old daughter a lot, and wherever possible we use the footpath, and I don't think we are going to change it no matter what the law says...

uck51js9zml2yt

As a kid I went to the bike training place in fairview/clontarf, I think its gone now.

a bicycle card is a great idea. It should be compulsory for everyone (even pedestrians )

RecordStraight

316 wrote: »

A footpath is for pedestrians hence the name, your post was irrelevant to the thread.

There were two options. It is illegal to cycle on one option.

Therefore my post was entirely relevant to the thread, unless you are suggesting it is illegal for children to ride bikes at all.

:rolleyes:

316

RecordStraight wrote: »

There were two options. It is illegal to cycle on one option.



:rolleyes:

Why are you keeping on about footpaths, the op is on about public roads, your just derailing the thread on about footpaths.

Therefore my post was entirely relevant to the thread, unless you are suggesting it is illegal for children to ride bikes at all.

I am suggesting nothing, it is you that are doing the suggestions.

Seweryn

CiniO wrote: »

But is it already illegal for kids to cycle on footpath (was this law already introduced)?
I cycle with my 6 year old daughter a lot, and wherever possible we use the footpath, and I don't think we are going to change it no matter what the law says...

It is illegal, but as with many laws in this country - the enforcement is almost non existent.

locum-motion

CiniO wrote: »

...
F.e. in Poland where I'm originally from, laws are way more clear.
Children up to 10 years of age, can not cycle on public roads at all. They can only use footpath and must be supervised by adult - in this particular case adult can cycle on footpath as well.
Children above 10 years of age, can cycle on public roads (supervised or not supervised) but only provided they obtained a "bicycle card" which is kind of driving licence for bicycles for anyone under 18 years of age. To obtain it, they have to go through training, and pass a test from knowledge of rules of the road.

I'm very surprised that no such laws (or similar) exist in Ireland.

Great idea!

RecordStraight

316 wrote: »

Why are you keeping on about footpaths, the op is on about public roads, your just derailing the thread on about footpaths.

Guys, help me out here - which one of us is crazy?

ROK ON

iBTL

Kavrocks

CiniO wrote: »

F.e. in Poland where I'm originally from, laws are way more clear.
Children up to 10 years of age, can not cycle on public roads at all. They can only use footpath and must be supervised by adult - in this particular case adult can cycle on footpath as well.
Children above 10 years of age, can cycle on public roads (supervised or not supervised) but only provided they obtained a "bicycle card" which is kind of driving licence for bicycles for anyone under 18 years of age. To obtain it, they have to go through training, and pass a test from knowledge of rules of the road.

I'm very surprised that no such laws (or similar) exist in Ireland.

I'm not.

That's quite a sensible situation and certainly one that has the safety and wellbeing of children at the heart of it. With the amount of vehicles on our roads increasing, the impending obesity crisis and a major push to getting people to cycle something like this which will encourage parents to have their child cycle and hopefully make it safer for all concerned is something we really should have.

Chips Lovell

Do we really need any legislation regarding kids cycling? Are kids being arrested for cycling on the footpath? Has there been an upsurge of five year olds cycling unaccompanied on the Naas Road?

galwaycyclist

CiniO wrote: »

But is it already illegal for kids to cycle on footpath (was this law already introduced)?
I cycle with my 6 year old daughter a lot, and wherever possible we use the footpath, and I don't think we are going to change it no matter what the law says...

Yes it is forbidden by Article 13 of the Irish Traffic and Parking regulations - although it is rarely enforced. The law says you cannot drive on footpaths and the law also defines cycling as driving. (The age of the driver is not taken into account).

galwaycyclist

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Do we really need any legislation regarding kids cycling? Are kids being arrested for cycling on the footpath? Has there been an upsurge of five year olds cycling unaccompanied on the Naas Road?

Yes we do. Not for the Naas Road specifically but for kids trying to get to the local school.

Under German traffic law able roads users are required to modify their driving behaviour if they meet children, the elderly, or disabled people.

The duty is on those in charge of the threat to modify their personal behaviour in response to the vulnerable.

Chips Lovell

Ummm, drivers have a duty of care already. Just because someone's a kid or elderly doesn't give you a right to mow them down.

RecordStraight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Do we really need any legislation regarding kids cycling? Are kids being arrested for cycling on the footpath? Has there been an upsurge of five year olds cycling unaccompanied on the Naas Road?

If you have a look at another contemporaneous thread on AH, militant anti-cyclists are suggesting that the police should crack down on children cycling on paths, and one head-the-ball says that he forces small children into the traffic if he sees them. I don't really fancy young children sharing road space with those folks.

niceonetom

Ok, so I guess it'll be me this time:

Chips Lovell

RecordStraight wrote: »

If you have a look at another contemporaneous thread on AH, militant anti-cyclists are suggesting that the police should crack down on children cycling on paths, and one head-the-ball says that he forces small children into the traffic if he sees them. I don't really fancy young children sharing road space with those folks.

Again, these head the balls are already have a duty of care as a motorist and already can be held liable if they injure someone. It's not like people are running over kids and getting off scott free.

RecordStraight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

It's not like people are running over kids and getting off scott free.

I'd rather they weren't running over them at all to be honest.

galwaycyclist

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Ummm, drivers have a duty of care already. Just because someone's a kid or elderly doesn't give you a right to mow them down.

No but there is no specific duty to take them into account or allow for their unpredictability either. There is no specific duty to moderate speed or be ready to brake.

Irish law allows adults to blame children for being children.

Irish traffic law, and the associated attitudes to children among Irish adult drivers, is one of the reasons we ended up with the highest child pedestrian death rate in Western Europe at the end of the 1990s.

Carawaystick

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes it is forbidden by Article 13 of the Irish Traffic and Parking regulations - although it is rarely enforced. The law says you cannot drive on footpaths and the law also defines cycling as driving. (The age of the driver is not taken into account).

However children below the age of criminal responsibility are innocent of any offence.

To say any person could not cycle on a road until they are ten and then only with the permission of the state is a daft communist idea. You could have a person cycling 6 years before they could cross the road?

Chips Lovell

As a driver you should be able to anticipate and respond to any hazard. The law makes no exception for children.

RecordStraight

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Irish traffic law, and the associated attitudes to children among Irish adult drivers, is one of the reasons we ended up with the highest child pedestrian death rate in Western Europe at the end of the 1990s.

Hey, it's good to be top at something, right?

Tigger

CiniO wrote: »

Thanks, that explains a good bit.

So my understanding is than with my last question, 5 year old can actually cycle in traffic. Obviously it would be crazy to let such child do it unsupervised, but strange there is not any law about it.

F.e. in Poland where I'm originally from, laws are way more clear.
Children up to 10 years of age, can not cycle on public roads at all. They can only use footpath and must be supervised by adult - in this particular case adult can cycle on footpath as well.
Children above 10 years of age, can cycle on public roads (supervised or not supervised) but only provided they obtained a "bicycle card" which is kind of driving licence for bicycles for anyone under 18 years of age. To obtain it, they have to go through training, and pass a test from knowledge of rules of the road.

I'm very surprised that no such laws (or similar) exist in Ireland.

When you say surprised how long have you been here
I think you mean you disapprove

RecordStraight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

As a driver you should be able to anticipate and respond to any hazard. The law makes no exception for children.

Jep, would you be happier if your imaginary 7-year-old daughter was cycling to school on a road or on a footpath? (we'll worry about chipping her later...)

Sheldons Brain

RecordStraight wrote: »

Indeed - but seeing as it is illegal to cycle on footpaths, then they are obliged to cycle on the roads.

They are not obliged to cycle at all, they can walk on the footpath. Almost every child or adult indeed capable of cycling is capable of walking. If they want to cycle part of the way they can push the bicycle for part of the way too while walking.

This idea that prohibiting cycling on paths forces people into traffic is complete and utter nonsense and a justification for lawbreaking.

Chips Lovell

I'd have no issue with them doing either. I'd probably ride with them myself if they were on the road.

RecordStraight

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

This idea that prohibiting cycling on paths forces people into traffic is complete and utter nonsense and a justification for lawbreaking.

Where I live, it's legal for children under 12 to cycle on the footpaths. After that age, they are trusted to have the judgement and skill to join the other traffic on the road.

I'm not advocating for one second that adults should be allowed cycle on footpaths. They should be in the middle of the road like everyone else.

RecordStraight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I'd have no issue with them doing either. I'd probably ride with them myself if they were on the road.

I'm not asking if you have an issue, I'm asking if you would be happier. If you don't want to discuss this properly, fair enough, but don't string me along...

Chips Lovell

RecordStraight wrote: »

I'm not asking if you have an issue, I'm asking if you would be happier. If you don't want to discuss this properly, fair enough, but don't string me along...

I genuinely don't know what you're trying to tease out here. Can you be explicit? I'm not uncomfortable with the idea of a seven year old cycling on the road, if that's what you're driving at?

CiniO

Carawaystick wrote: »

To say any person could not cycle on a road until they are ten and then only with the permission of the state is a daft communist idea.

Are you serious?
You really think that permission of the state which consists of having person trained for rules of the road and ask them to take a test of that knowledge before they are entitled to use public roads where all those rules apply is a daft communist idea?

I though every driver in Ireland had to do it anyway in form of driving licence.
Why cyclist kid should be different?

RecordStraight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I genuinely don't know what you're trying to tease out here. Can you be explicit? I'm not uncomfortable with the idea of a seven year old cycling on the road, if that's what you're driving at?

Ok. Thanks for the honesty... :pac:

I can only guess that you don't have any kids, as you are still treating it as a legal abstraction.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I would much prefer if we mirrored the laws in Germany regarding young cyclists. I am not a fan of children cycling on the road.

CiniO

RecordStraight wrote: »

Ok. Thanks for the honesty... :pac:

I can only guess that you don't have any kids, as you are still treating it as a legal abstraction.

There's no way I'd let my 6.5 year old daughter to cycle on public road on her own.
As I said when we cycle together, she always use footpath when available, and when not, we cycle two abrest with me being on the offside.

Chips Lovell

Nah, if we're genuine about promoting cycling we need to move away from this hysteria about safety.

At the moment, the message is one of constant negativity. Cycling is so dangerous kids shouldn't be on the road. It's so dangerous you need to wear a helmet at all times. It's so dangerous you need to segregate cyclists from other traffic.

And then we wonder why more people don't cycle...

RecordStraight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Nah, if we're genuine about promoting cycling we need to move away from this hysteria about safety.

At the moment, the message is one of constant negativity. Cycling is so dangerous kids shouldn't be on the road. It's so dangerous you need to wear a helmet at all times. It's so dangerous you need to segregate cyclists from other traffic.

And then we wonder why more people don't cycle...

Fair points, but the negative message would go away if we tackled some the riskier elements of cycling - for example, by habituating children to cycling on footpaths when small, so that they are comfortable moving onto the road when they get older. Graduating to the road, if you will.

Chips Lovell

Is anyone arguing against letting kids start our riding on the footpath?

CiniO

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Nah, if we're genuine about promoting cycling we need to move away from this hysteria about safety.

At the moment, the message is one of constant negativity. Cycling is so dangerous kids shouldn't be on the road. It's so dangerous you need to wear a helmet at all times. It's so dangerous you need to segregate cyclists from other traffic.

And then we wonder why more people don't cycle...

I can't really see negativity here.
Cycling on some roads is dangerous whether you want it or not.
It's even more dangerous if person cycling is a small kid at age of 5 or 7 or similar who doesn't even know or understand rules of the road.
Promote cycling all they way you want, but unfortunately there is plenty very dangerous roads in Ireland for cyclists, especially children.

RecordStraight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Is anyone arguing against letting kids start our riding on the footpath?

The law is, for a start...

Chips Lovell

RecordStraight wrote: »

The law is, for a start...

But the law isn't enforced. It's a non-issue. It's not like the Guards are going around issuing summons to the parents of toddlers. Changing that law is just finding a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

RecordStraight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

But the law isn't enforced. It's a non-issue. It's not like the Guards are going around issuing summons to the parents of toddlers. Changing that law is just finding a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

A bit like decriminalising homosexuality, when nobody was being prosecuted for it anyway?