Left or Right rule in the UK

KingBrian2

In the UK what percentage of the population supports the left compared to those that support the right.

By left I refer to Social Democracy, Internationalism, supportive of abortion, same-sex marriage, trade unionism, devolution, NHS and better relations with Europe.

By conservative my understanding would be greater defence capabilities, conscription, slashing benefits for unemployed and migrants, opposition to secularism.

gallag

KingBrian2 wrote: »

In the UK what percentage of the population supports the left compared to those that support the right.

By left I refer to Social Democracy, Internationalism, supportive of abortion, same-sex marriage, trade unionism, devolution, NHS and better relations with Europe.

By conservative my understanding would be greater defence capabilities, conscription, slashing benefits for unemployed and migrants, opposition to secularism.

Would i be left or right?
I support the woman's right to complete control over her body but not after a certain point I.e a viable fetus, same sex marriage is fine as long as religious institutions that object are not forced to carry it out, I believe that having a strong military is essential for the safety of citizens but disagreed with Iraq, Afghanistan and getting rid of gaddafi etc certainly would disagree with conscription. I also support international trade but think allowing big business the ability to operate in wealthy countries while pillaging workers from far less wealthy countries causing downward pressure on workers and a brain drain from already poor countries is wrong, I believe unions can be great but also terrible for workers i.e the coal miners vs thatcher. I believe benefits should not be at such a level to demotivate people from working unless genuinely unable to work and support tory plans to lime benefits to foreign workers unless they have payed more in than they take out. I also believe religion is a nonsense and should have no part in the running of a country.

KingBrian2

gallag wrote: »

Would i be left or right?
I support the woman's right to complete control over her body but not after a certain point I.e a viable fetus, same sex marriage is fine as long as religious institutions that object are not forced to carry it out, I believe that having a strong military is essential for the safety of citizens but disagreed with Iraq, Afghanistan and getting rid of gaddafi etc certainly would disagree with conscription. I also support international trade but think allowing big business the ability to operate in wealthy countries while pillaging workers from far less wealthy countries causing downward pressure on workers and a brain drain from already poor countries is wrong, I believe unions can be great but also terrible for workers i.e the coal miners vs thatcher. I believe benefits should not be at such a level to demotivate people from working unless genuinely unable to work and support tory plans to lime benefits to foreign workers unless they have payed more in than they take out. I also believe religion is a nonsense and should have no part in the running of a country.

Definitely Left.

Fratton Fred

The UK has SSM, abortion, a free health service and is probably one of, if not the most multiculturally integrated county in the world, so by your definition it is a very left wing country.

With the small exception that it isn't.

KingBrian2

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The UK has SSM, abortion, a free health service and is probably one of, if not the most multiculturally integrated county in the world, so by your definition it is a very left wing country.

With the small exception that it isn't.

My question though is what percentage of the populations is left versus right. I am trying to determine an approximate posture. In general the UK often takes a posture that makes it a very conservative Nation.

BoJack Horseman

Very few are left or right.

The vast majority are right in the centre.... where they should be

The Labour Party are for stronger defence, the Tories are pro-NHS.
Both are centrist parties.

KingBrian2

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Very few are left or right.

The vast majority are right in the centre.... where they should be

The Labour Party are for stronger defence, the Tories are pro-NHS.
Both are centrist parties.

Was not true than in the 80's when the right was enormously popular with Thatcher being elected for two terms and she had the full support of the electorate to fight Argentina and crush the unions.

BoJack Horseman

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Was not true than in the 80's when the right was enormously popular with Thatcher being elected for two terms and she had the full support of the electorate to fight Argentina and crush the unions.

These aren't right wing policies though.

Repelling the invasion of sovereign territory & disposing loss making dying industries are pretty middle of the road policies, both thoroughly reasonable.

Nothing extreme about either.

KingBrian2

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

These aren't right wing policies though.

Repelling the invasion of sovereign territory & disposing loss making dying industries are pretty middle of the road policies, both thoroughly reasonable.

Nothing extreme about either.

So invading a country in order to keep hold of Imperial possessions would be considered perfectly fine to you. The invasion of Iraq has the same echo of Imperial grandeur. Tuff out a despot and leave a corrupt gvt in charge. It is already well known that her policies where by far extreme even in her time. Later gvt moved away from her harsh measures regarding the peace process not to mention the all too public take down by John Major who effectively led a coup against her over her European decisions.

gallag

KingBrian2 wrote: »

So invading a country in order to keep hold of Imperial possessions would be considered perfectly fine to you. The invasion of Iraq has the same echo of Imperial grandeur. Tuff out a despot and leave a corrupt gvt in charge. It is already well known that her policies where by far extreme even in her time. Later gvt moved away from her harsh measures regarding the peace process not to mention the all too public take down by John Major who effectively led a coup against her over her European decisions.

When the British retook the faulklands it was a liberation not an invasion, unless you think the will of the people who can trace their ancestors back to times before Argentina existed as a country should be usurped by a country only looking to financial gain.

greendom

KingBrian2 wrote: »

In the UK what percentage of the population supports the left compared to those that support the right.

By left I refer to Social Democracy, Internationalism, supportive of abortion, same-sex marriage, trade unionism, devolution, NHS and better relations with Europe.

By conservative my understanding would be greater defence capabilities, conscription, slashing benefits for unemployed and migrants, opposition to secularism.

some strange ideas of what constitutes left and right - particularly associating religion and religious mores with the right.

KingBrian2

gallag wrote: »

When the British retook the faulklands it was a liberation not an invasion, unless you think the will of the people who can trace their ancestors back to times before Argentina existed as a country should be usurped by a country only looking to financial gain.

It is when the UN which was set up after the second world war was set up to mediate these disputes. The precise purpose of the Security Council was to avoid disputes growing hot.

KingBrian2

greendom wrote: »

some strange ideas of what constitutes left and right - particularly associating religion and religious mores with the right.

Religious people would be associated with conservative polices, particularly very devout individuals nothing controversial about that.

RDM_83 again

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Religious people would be associated with conservative polices, particularly very devout individuals nothing controversial about that.

It doesn't really match the UK though, the areas with the most devout communities (high muslim population) return Labour candidates. I think that UK Labour is on to a long term decline unless it reevaluates its fundamental ethos, once these communities pull themselves into a better position they tend to move to the Tories as the Hindu population have.
I honestly think the Conservatives are probably much closer in ideals than Labour of the for the muslim community where i live at the minute. Strong small businesses and small scale entrepreneurship, very very culturally conservative, strong family bonds. This just doesnt match modern Labour.
*In terms of migration I would wonder what the views are, a decent bit of antagonism between this community and the (recent and not afro Caribbean) African and Eastern Europeans that I have seen.

KingBrian2

RDM_83 again wrote: »

It doesn't really match the UK though, the areas with the most devout communities (high muslim population) return Labour candidates. I think that UK Labour is on to a long term decline unless it reevaluates its fundamental ethos, once these communities pull themselves into a better position they tend to move to the Tories as the Hindu population have.
I honestly think the Conservatives are probably much closer in ideals than Labour of the for the muslim community where i live at the minute. Strong small businesses and small scale entrepreneurship, very very culturally conservative, strong family bonds. This just doesnt match modern Labour.
*In terms of migration I would wonder what the views are, a decent bit of antagonism between this community and the (recent and not afro Caribbean) African and Eastern Europeans that I have seen.

What about censorship, propaganda and banker bonuses. This is the party of the conservatives always has been. Thatcher remade the party into a deeply conservative bunch even supporting war.

Fr Tod Umptious

I think the OPs original question and his/her subsequent replies are loaded in an attempt to paint the British people as further to the right than they actually are because they elected a Tory majority recently.

Replies have shown that the British are more centerist than he/she would like to think.

Clearlier

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think the OPs original question and his/her subsequent replies are loaded in an attempt to paint the British people as further to the right than they actually are because they elected a Tory majority recently.

Replies have shown that the British are more centerist than he/she would like to think.

I've lived here for about 6 years now and there are significantly bigger cultural differences than I had anticipated. That said I don't recognise the distinctions made between left and right in the OP so you're quite possibly correct about the OP being loaded.

The biggest difference for me between the Ireland I knew and the England I know is a much greater acceptance of huge levels of inequality. This is reflective of a few other things but it's the inequality that consistently jars with me.

Much like Tony Blair, David Cameron is more interested in getting elected than leading - in fact I see a plethora of followers and a dearth of leaders in politics at the moment. That has its pluses and its minuses but for the Tories right now it means that they can swing one way or the other on any issue depending on the public mood. In the short term this can be a good thing but in the long run I think that it means that any minority interest risks being trampled underfoot.

One thing to remember about politics in the UK is that the nature of the electoral system essentially makes it a two party state but those parties are pretty broad churches.

Fr Tod Umptious

Clearlier wrote: »

I've lived here for about 6 years now and there are significantly bigger cultural differences than I had anticipated. That said I don't recognise the distinctions made between left and right in the OP so you're quite possibly correct about the OP being loaded.

The biggest difference for me between the Ireland I knew and the England I know is a much greater acceptance of huge levels of inequality. This is reflective of a few other things but it's the inequality that consistently jars with me.

Much like Tony Blair, David Cameron is more interested in getting elected than leading - in fact I see a plethora of followers and a dearth of leaders in politics at the moment. That has its pluses and its minuses but for the Tories right now it means that they can swing one way or the other on any issue depending on the public mood. In the short term this can be a good thing but in the long run I think that it means that any minority interest risks being trampled underfoot.

One thing to remember about politics in the UK is that the nature of the electoral system essentially makes it a two party state but those parties are pretty broad churches.

And I think that's the bit that the OP is not willing to admit.

IrishTrajan

KingBrian2 wrote: »

By conservative my understanding would be greater defence capabilities, conscription, slashing benefits for unemployed and migrants, opposition to secularism.

Just an aside: this would fall under authoritarianism, not left-wing or right-wing politics. There is left-wing authoritarianism (the USSR) and there is right-wing authoritarianism (Nazi Germany, and to a much lesser extent; the US in the immediate aftermath of 9/11)


I'm somewhat of a centralist, though I seem to have left-leanings on social issues, but right-leanings on financial/economic issues. For instance, I support abortion, gay marriage, secularisation, but I (heavily) oppose bloated welfare budgets, mass immigration of non-skilled migrants, ridiculously high taxes on the working/middle classes, and would support increased expenditure on the HSE (more streamlining, by removing those employed in administration, whilst increasing pay for nurses and trying to recruit more) and on the Defence Budget.

IrishTrajan

KingBrian2 wrote: »

So invading a country in order to keep hold of Imperial possessions would be considered perfectly fine to you. The invasion of Iraq has the same echo of Imperial grandeur. Tuff out a despot and leave a corrupt gvt in charge. It is already well known that her policies where by far extreme even in her time. Later gvt moved away from her harsh measures regarding the peace process not to mention the all too public take down by John Major who effectively led a coup against her over her European decisions.

You do know they had a referendum on it, and the people overwhelmingly (there was only 3 votes against, I think) supported remaining part of the United Kingdom, right?

When the UK settled those islands, there was no Argentinian in sight, they had abandoned the island. Right now, "Los Malvinas son Argentines" is nothing but a sabre to distract people from Kirchner's abysmal (I mean thoroughly abysmal) economic policies, and the Argentinians have absolutely no right to lay claim to the island, when they've already said they will completely ignore the residents' desires. I believe the argument was; "Your ancestors came from Britain, your opinion means nothing, and you should go back to Britain".

KingBrian2

I would like to respond to a couple of comments that have been aimed at me. I will explain my understanding as to why I think the UK is more conservative.

Firstly politics is all about having passionate opinions about topics since politics impacts people so I don't hide the fact that I hold some very biased remarks about Britain because that has been my experience, the UK is Ireland's only and largest neighbour and I have come to know of Britain as being a deeply conservative country.

Now as for why I should think. Nobody has addressed the point I mentioned in my earlier comments the censorship, propaganda and authoritarian nature of conservative administrations. British PM's standing next to hawkish American Presidents. Unlike places like Sweden, New Zealand or France a liberal lifestyle is far less acceptable, parties like the Socialists rarely attain power, the previous administration New Labour was very conservative. Don't get me wrong when it comes to efficient government the UK fares well with high level of competence and highly professionalised civil servants but the UK is a deeply conservative society. A member of NATO, coalition fighting wars in foreign lands, opposition to fair trade and shrinking of the gvt to allow banks control vast amounts of British industry.

blinding

When Labour get Power (Particularly Blair) They go Right, Right Right then after they are turfed out they go left.

Its comical stuff altogether.

KingBrian2

blinding wrote: »

When Labour get Power (Particularly Blair) They go Right, Right Right then after they are turfed out they go left.

Its comical stuff altogether.

You wouldn't be saying this because your a conservative by any chance.:D

blinding

KingBrian2 wrote: »

You wouldn't be saying this because your a conservative by any chance.:D

Nope !

Lemming

KingBrian2 wrote: »

... a liberal lifestyle is far less acceptable

Would you awfully mind giving us your idea of what a "liberal lifestyle" entails? Because Britain is - socially speaking - extrordinarily liberal, with a largely tolerant view towards choice of faith, race, sexual preferences, abortion, etc. I would say that the country has by and large been far more progressive over the decades than Ireland has, at a pace that has far outstripped Ireland at the same time.

the UK is a deeply conservative society. A member of NATO, coalition fighting wars in foreign lands, opposition to fair trade and shrinking of the gvt to allow banks control vast amounts of British industry.

From my six years in the UK, I would strongly disagree with you that it is a "deeply" conservative society. The UK having a strong notion of identity (left-overs from Empire I suppose) does not equate to conservativsm. The UK having strong notions of defense - both in its interest of continued survival since it was directly involved in the Cold war and is a former world power - is not equal to conservatism. Being involved in a war overseas is not equal to conservatism.

In exactly what way does Britain oppose fair trade? And how exactly does shrinking of government entail ceeding power to the banks and allowing them to run the country?

You seem to have some very peculiar notions as to what entails conservatism, mixed in with a heady dose of soundbites that wouldn't be out of place in the latest issue of the Socialist Workers paper. This entire thread reeks of an agenda.

IrishTrajan

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I would like to respond to a couple of comments that have been aimed at me. I will explain my understanding as to why I think the UK is more conservative.

Firstly politics is all about having passionate opinions about topics since politics impacts people so I don't hide the fact that I hold some very biased remarks about Britain because that has been my experience, the UK is Ireland's only and largest neighbour and I have come to know of Britain as being a deeply conservative country.

Ireland is more conservative than Britain, though.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Now as for why I should think. Nobody has addressed the point I mentioned in my earlier comments the censorship, propaganda and authoritarian nature of conservative administrations.

Wasn't it Labour in power when the UK instated sweeping measures after the 7/7 Bombings? Wasn't Labour in power when the UK invaded Iraq?

I fail to see where Conservativism != Authoritarianism

KingBrian2 wrote: »

British PM's standing next to hawkish American Presidents.

Our Taoiseach has met both. Would you call Enda a hawk himself? He looks like a duckling with his quaff of hair, to be honest.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Unlike places like Sweden, New Zealand or France a liberal lifestyle is far less acceptable, parties like the Socialists rarely attain power, the previous administration New Labour was very conservative. Don't get me wrong when it comes to efficient government the UK fares well with high level of competence and highly professionalised civil servants but the UK is a deeply conservative society.

New Zealand has a Conservative Government, France has a rapidly growing right-wing party, and Sweden is a basket case of poor ideas backfiring, and their government is the very definition of authoritarianism (the main parties have organized among themselves a "lock out" of any group even slightly to the right of them).

KingBrian2 wrote: »

A member of NATO, coalition fighting wars in foreign lands, opposition to fair trade and shrinking of the gvt to allow banks control vast amounts of British industry.

It was Labour who started the war. Unless you're calling Labour Conservative, in which case your definition of Conservative and mine radically differs. The shrinking of the Government is to allow the market to expand, in the aftermath of a global economic crisis. I can't think of one example where increasing Government regulation has led to a growth in that industry.



Like I said in a previous post, authoritarianism is not solely one wing or the other. It belongs to both sides. There are authoritarian left, and there are authoritarian right, so can we drop this "Conservative = Authority" part, please?

Clearlier

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Ireland is more conservative than Britain, though.



Wasn't it Labour in power when the UK instated sweeping measures after the 7/7 Bombings? Wasn't Labour in power when the UK invaded Iraq?

I fail to see where Conservativism != Authoritarianism



Our Taoiseach has met both. Would you call Enda a hawk himself? He looks like a duckling with his quaff of hair, to be honest.



New Zealand has a Conservative Government, France has a rapidly growing right-wing party, and Sweden is a basket case of poor ideas backfiring, and their government is the very definition of authoritarianism (the main parties have organized among themselves a "lock out" of any group even slightly to the right of them).



It was Labour who started the war. Unless you're calling Labour Conservative, in which case your definition of Conservative and mine radically differs. The shrinking of the Government is to allow the market to expand, in the aftermath of a global economic crisis. I can't think of one example where increasing Government regulation has led to a growth in that industry.



Like I said in a previous post, authoritarianism is not solely one wing or the other. It belongs to both sides. There are authoritarian left, and there are authoritarian right, so can we drop this "Conservative = Authority" part, please?

Whilst I find myself agreeing a the most of your political analysis the economic bit has long been disproven. The excel sheets used for the calculations in the academics papers that it was based on were found to have some fairly basic errors which when corrected invalidated the conclusions.

Governments are close to a necessary for condition for economic activity on any kind of a significant scale and they can and do intervene in markets in positive and negative ways. Regulations are just one way in which a government intervenes in a market and as with other ways this can be in a positive and a negative manner sometimes I'm sure both with the same regulation.

Edgarfrndly

The left/right paradigm is not really a meaningful construct when attempting to debate politics. Not everyone, if rarely anyone falls neatly under either category. I also don't think UK as a whole is of a homogeneous nature, as each constituent country varies in their views. Loyalist heartlands in East Belfast are going to have diametrically opposing social views to more liberal areas in Britain.

Southern England tends to be more socially and economically conservative, while Northern England, parts of Wales and Scotland tend to be more socially and economically liberal. Scotland in particular seems to be developing it's own political identity in the UK. There is a stark contrast between the aspirations of voters in Scotland, and the south-east of England.

I don't think the UK is overly conservative. They are way ahead of Ireland (or have been) on many social issues. They are probably more fiscally conservative in their views, but then again - what does that mean - given their large defence budget? There also seems to be a larger Euroskeptic movement in the UK than Ireland, largely due to the question of immigration.

UK politics is quite complex, and greatly varied.

KingBrian2

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Ireland is more conservative than Britain, though.



Wasn't it Labour in power when the UK instated sweeping measures after the 7/7 Bombings? Wasn't Labour in power when the UK invaded Iraq?

I fail to see where Conservativism != Authoritarianism



Our Taoiseach has met both. Would you call Enda a hawk himself? He looks like a duckling with his quaff of hair, to be honest.



New Zealand has a Conservative Government, France has a rapidly growing right-wing party, and Sweden is a basket case of poor ideas backfiring, and their government is the very definition of authoritarianism (the main parties have organized among themselves a "lock out" of any group even slightly to the right of them).



It was Labour who started the war. Unless you're calling Labour Conservative, in which case your definition of Conservative and mine radically differs. The shrinking of the Government is to allow the market to expand, in the aftermath of a global economic crisis. I can't think of one example where increasing Government regulation has led to a growth in that industry.



Like I said in a previous post, authoritarianism is not solely one wing or the other. It belongs to both sides. There are authoritarian left, and there are authoritarian right, so can we drop this "Conservative = Authority" part, please?

Yes the Taoiseach is a conservative, I would have thought that common knowledge but as for Ireland being more conservative, that might have been the case in the last 30years when are economy was poor and religions was strong but even as far back as the early 50's or late 40's I honestly don't know the precise date but the referendum that prevented the FF gvt from introducing a first past the post system was a demonstration of a liberal society that supports many political parties as opposed to two authoritarian blocks of parties. We also have the Euro dimension which is so illuminating. Most Eurosceptic parties with the exception of the anti capitalist left of Norway are all on the right of the political divide. Indeed a major opposition to the EU is that its legislation will harm multinational corporations. I understand the concerns of some on the right when it comes to limiting sovereignty but by and large the EU is in a big confrontation with human traffickers and climate change deniers. I would put the EU leaps and bounds ahead of the curve in having better ways in dealing with these dangerous threats.

Lemming

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Yes the Taoiseach is a conservative, I would have thought that common knowledge but as for Ireland being more conservative, that might have been the case in the last 30years when are economy was poor and religions was strong but even as far back as the early 50's or late 40's I honestly don't know the precise date but the referendum that prevented the FF gvt from introducing a first past the post system was a demonstration of a liberal society that supports many political parties as opposed to two authoritarian blocks of parties. We also have the Euro dimension which is so illuminating. Most Eurosceptic parties with the exception of the anti capitalist left of Norway are all on the right of the political divide. Indeed a major opposition to the EU is that its legislation will harm multinational corporations. I understand the concerns of some on the right when it comes to limiting sovereignty but by and large the EU is in a big confrontation with human traffickers and climate change deniers. I would put the EU leaps and bounds ahead of the curve in having better ways in dealing with these dangerous threats.

So ... the fact that there exists euro-sceptics in British politics (namely UKIP, and some Tory backbenchers) equals a conservative society? I hate to break it to you, but the British media gives UKIP and their ilk far more noise then they're actually worth in reality because they stir controversy and sell newspapers. Further, being a sceptic is by no means a defacto negative thing; only if you let your sceptiscm refuse to accept facts when put to you.

Again, you have some remarkably peculiar notions on what constitutes conservatism vs. well ... everything else. And you have very pecular notions on what consitutes liberal society. Because if you are going to try and argue that Ireland through the decades and into the 21st century is a more liberal society than the UK, you are so far wide of the mark one wonders if you're trying to troll.

IrishTrajan

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Yes the Taoiseach is a conservative, I would have thought that common knowledge but as for Ireland being more conservative, that might have been the case in the last 30years when are economy was poor and religions was strong

Which country allowed same sex marriage, which country has liberalized abortion laws?

KingBrian2 wrote: »

but even as far back as the early 50's or late 40's I honestly don't know the precise date but the referendum that prevented the FF gvt from introducing a first past the post system was a demonstration of a liberal society that supports many political parties as opposed to two authoritarian blocks of parties.

Once again, authoritarianism does not equate Conservatism, your point here is moot.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

We also have the Euro dimension which is so illuminating. Most Eurosceptic parties with the exception of the anti capitalist left of Norway are all on the right of the political divide.

Correlation does not equate causation. Look at the CDU in Germany. By all rights they can be classed as Conservative, but they are pro-EU.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Indeed a major opposition to the EU is that its legislation will harm multinational corporations. I understand the concerns of some on the right when it comes to limiting sovereignty but by and large the EU is in a big confrontation with human traffickers and climate change deniers.

And the Centrists disagree with loss of sovereignty too. Conservative nature is one resistant to rapid change, not solely one of "fúck the poor", and the Tories are quite left-wing if you were to compare them even to the Democrats in the US.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I would put the EU leaps and bounds ahead of the curve in having better ways in dealing with these dangerous threats.

I disagree. On climate change, yes. On illegal immigration, definitely not. Britain has said they won't partake in the EU's resettlement program (which they have every right to do, the same way we and Denmark do), yet the EU is threatening to rewrite the Dublin Protocols solely to force Britain into complying.

Which is more authoritarian, the Conservative UK who are using their rights, or the "liberal" EU that is screaming "You must do this or I will rewrite the laws and force you to do this anyway!"?



So, please, separate conservative and authoritarian, they are in no way intrinsically linked.

IrishTrajan

Lemming wrote: »

So ... the fact that there exists euro-sceptics in British politics (namely UKIP, and some Tory backbenchers) equals a conservative society? I hate to break it to you, but the British media gives UKIP and their ilk far more noise then they're actually worth in reality because they stir controversy and sell newspapers. Further, being a sceptic is by no means a defacto negative thing; only if you let your sceptiscm refuse to accept facts when put to you.

UKIP got, what, 12% of the vote? That's over twice what the SNP got. UKIP got votes because that's what issues matter to the people and where the debate lies. UKIP has got the Tories more interested in Defence (with Cameron promising 1% increase to their equipment budget in real terms, and several backbenchers likely forcing a push if Britain falls below 2% spending), Immigration, and the European Union.

The real evil is the FPtP system.

Lemming wrote: »

Again, you have some remarkably peculiar notions on what constitutes conservatism vs. well ... everything else. And you have very pecular notions on what consitutes liberal society. Because if you are going to try and argue that Ireland through the decades and into the 21st century is a more liberal society than the UK, you are so far wide of the mark one wonders if you're trying to troll.

I'm quite certain he just dislikes the UK. Which is fine, but just don't hide behind the idea that you dislike the UK's Conservative nature where there isn't one.

KingBrian2

It baffles me that nobody's sees how conservative the UK is. I do distinguish between authoritarianism and conservatism but too many people on here are apologists for deeply conservative policies entrenched in the UK. Yes other countries have conservative parties but they also work with liberals, socialists and the Greens whereas a plethora of hardline conservatives dominate the media and political landscape.

IrishTrajan

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It baffles me that nobody's sees how conservative the UK is. I do distinguish between authoritarianism and conservatism but too many people on here are apologists for deeply conservative policies entrenched in the UK. Yes other countries have conservative parties but they also work with liberals, socialists and the Greens whereas a plethora of hardline conservatives dominate the media and political landscape.

It's not apologizing, it's facts. Ireland is far, far more conservative than the UK, and the UK is, by and large, pretty liberal.

You say you distinguish between Cons and Authoritarianism, but you keep bringing up Authoritarianism as proof that the UK is conservative, when that simply isn't the case.

Lemming

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It baffles me that nobody's sees how conservative the UK is. I do distinguish between authoritarianism and conservatism but too many people on here are apologists for deeply conservative policies entrenched in the UK. Yes other countries have conservative parties but they also work with liberals, socialists and the Greens whereas a plethora of hardline conservatives dominate the media and political landscape.

I'm an apologist for what now? I told you - based on my experiences to date living in the UK - that it is (and historically has been) a far more liberal society than Ireland, and you don't like what you hear because it doesn't kertow to your world view of how things should be.

You seem to equate what the media fixates on as what actually counts for running of a country. It does not, and if this is what you base your views on the UK on, then you are a hopelessly lost case. But then again, you seem to equate a lot of "not really what you claim it is" in the most impressive display of incomprehensible and non-dot-joining mental gymnastics possible to try and bash everything into your world view of how things should be.

So feel free to baffle yourself away that few others would appear to agrees with you.

KingBrian2

Lemming wrote: »

I'm an apologist for what now? I told you - based on my experiences to date living in the UK - that it is (and historically has been) a far more liberal society than Ireland, and you don't like what you hear because it doesn't kertow to your world view of how things should be.

You seem to equate what the media fixates on as what actually counts for running of a country. It does not, and if this is what you base your views on the UK on, then you are a hopelessly lost case. But then again, you seem to equate a lot of "not really what you claim it is" in the most impressive display of incomprehensible and non-dot-joining mental gymnastics possible to try and bash everything into your world view of how things should be.

So feel free to baffle yourself away that few others would appear to agrees with you.

Great way of dissing large sections of society that are unrepresented by the conservative lobby in the UK. Once again you compare Britain to Ireland when I was comparing the UK to other more liberal countries. I was not talking about how liberal Ireland was, I was asking from the very beginning how many liberals/leftists are their in the country v conservative right wingers in the country.

Based on the current configuration of Westminster conservatives make up the majority. Does this figure accurately represent the whole of the UK and when you look at the conservatives are their views in keeping with the majority of the population. Now from my point of view, reading British media outlets, hearing the various comments coming out of the UK on a wide variety of issues than the answer to me is that yes the UK is more conservative than it would like to present to the world. As I said before, this is about British politics nowhere else.

Clearlier

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Great way of dissing large sections of society that are unrepresented by the conservative lobby in the UK. Once again you compare Britain to Ireland when I was comparing the UK to other more liberal countries. I was not talking about how liberal Ireland was, I was asking from the very beginning how many liberals/leftists are their in the country v conservative right wingers in the country.

Based on the current configuration of Westminster conservatives make up the majority. Does this figure accurately represent the whole of the UK and when you look at the conservatives are their views in keeping with the majority of the population. Now from my point of view, reading British media outlets, hearing the various comments coming out of the UK on a wide variety of issues than the answer to me is that yes the UK is more conservative than it would like to present to the world. As I said before, this is about British politics nowhere else.

It wouldn't be accurate to conflate liberal and left. The liberal democrats veer towards liberal but have both right and left wing elements within the party which is what enables them to seriously consider supporting both the Conservatives and Labour. Labour has some very authoritarian streaks within the party and some liberal ones, ditto the Conservatives.

You need to be very wary of conflating the British media and public opinion. The newspapers in England (not the case in Scotland or Wales) are very right wing but don't IMO reflect public opinion. The BBC gets complaints from the right for being too left wing and from the left for being too right wing. Whatever your perspective there's no doubt in my mind that they attempt to steer a middle ground challenging all positions. I think that you get a better perspective of public opinion from the BBC than you do from the newspapers.

The UK is different to Ireland - in some respects it's more liberal, in some more authoritarian, it's incredibly bureaucratic, tolerates relatively high levels of inequality, has a very strong sense of fairness and despite what I thought ten years ago is much closer than many countries to achieving a genuine multi-cultural society. Its health system is much more (to use a horrible american word) socialised than Ireland's. We based our equality laws on theirs. Same sex marriage has been a reality in England and Wales for a couple of years now. OTOH it has delusions of grandeur militarily and does a poor job of recognising its place in the world and engaging with other nations.

It's impossible to accurately describe the UK as being a right wing or left wing country using the terms you did in the OP. The % of the population supporting the issues you described varies considerably from issue to issue.

KingBrian2

Clearlier wrote: »

It wouldn't be accurate to conflate liberal and left. The liberal democrats veer towards liberal but have both right and left wing elements within the party which is what enables them to seriously consider supporting both the Conservatives and Labour. Labour has some very authoritarian streaks within the party and some liberal ones, ditto the Conservatives.

You need to be very wary of conflating the British media and public opinion. The newspapers in England (not the case in Scotland or Wales) are very right wing but don't IMO reflect public opinion. The BBC gets complaints from the right for being too left wing and from the left for being too right wing. Whatever your perspective there's no doubt in my mind that they attempt to steer a middle ground challenging all positions. I think that you get a better perspective of public opinion from the BBC than you do from the newspapers.

The UK is different to Ireland - in some respects it's more liberal, in some more authoritarian, it's incredibly bureaucratic, tolerates relatively high levels of inequality, has a very strong sense of fairness and despite what I thought ten years ago is much closer than many countries to achieving a genuine multi-cultural society. Its health system is much more (to use a horrible american word) socialised than Ireland's. We based our equality laws on theirs. Same sex marriage has been a reality in England and Wales for a couple of years now. OTOH it has delusions of grandeur militarily and does a poor job of recognising its place in the world and engaging with other nations.

It's impossible to accurately describe the UK as being a right wing or left wing country using the terms you did in the OP. The % of the population supporting the issues you described varies considerably from issue to issue.

Well it did co found the UN with France, USA, China & the USSR, it is safe to say it is a large complicated country. That is not to say that over the last 30 years it has broadly speaking been a conservative country participating in all the International organisations. It has helped reduce poverty throughout the third world and sought compromise and reconciliation with many Nations such as South Africa, India, Pakistan, China, Japan and Turkey. Despite all this it effectively fought dozens of low levels wars against many other Nations and colluded with Islamists, Loyalists and crony capitalists. At this junction in time it is prepared to rip up the European Charter of Human rights, disengage from the ECJ and further support expanding free trade into impoverished Arab nations without first establishing viable states.

Clearlier

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Well it did co found the UN with France, USA, China & the USSR, it is safe to say it is a large complicated country. That is not to say that over the last 30 years it has broadly speaking been a conservative country participating in all the International organisations. It has helped reduce poverty throughout the third world and sought compromise and reconciliation with many Nations such as South Africa, India, Pakistan, China, Japan and Turkey. Despite all this it effectively fought dozens of low levels wars against many other Nations and colluded with Islamists, Loyalists and crony capitalists. At this junction in time it is prepared to rip up the European Charter of Human rights, disengage from the ECJ and further support expanding free trade into impoverished Arab nations without first establishing viable states.

Maybe stick to describing what it has done rather than trying to assign labels? I don't think that a lable in the context in why you are using it is illustrative or insightful.

KingBrian2

Clearlier wrote: »

Maybe stick to describing what it has done rather than trying to assign labels? I don't think that a lable in the context in why you are using it is illustrative or insightful.

Nobody has yet informed me if the UK is predominantly a right wing country or a left wing country. Some countries you know from the get go if they are left or right, Sweden left wing, New Zealand left wing, Russia right wing, America right wing, Japan right wing, France, Germany, Italy left wing. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan fundamentalist. Brazil, Egypt, India, South Africa, Mexico largely centrist. Obviously there is a scale, a question of degrees. Nobody would argue that America is on a par with Russia when it comes to the right wing but both countries have a large conservative voter base. The issue with the UK is which side does it fit in with.

A Primal Nut

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Nobody has yet informed me if the UK is predominantly a right wing country or a left wing country. Some countries you know from the get go if they are left or right, Sweden left wing, New Zealand left wing, Russia right wing, America right wing, Japan right wing, France, Germany, Italy left wing. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan fundamentalist. Brazil, Egypt, India, South Africa, Mexico largely centrist. Obviously there is a scale, a question of degrees. Nobody would argue that America is on a par with Russia when it comes to the right wing but both countries have a large conservative voter base. The issue with the UK is which side does it fit in with.

It's interesting that the Tories would not be as as right wing as most of the right wing parties you mentioned in that list - they are probably closer to the likes of Germany (who you labelled left-wing) than Russia.

johnnyskeleton

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Nobody has yet informed me if the UK is predominantly a right wing country or a left wing country. Some countries you know from the get go if they are left or right, Sweden left wing, New Zealand left wing, Russia right wing, America right wing, Japan right wing, France, Germany, Italy left wing. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan fundamentalist. Brazil, Egypt, India, South Africa, Mexico largely centrist. Obviously there is a scale, a question of degrees. Nobody would argue that America is on a par with Russia when it comes to the right wing but both countries have a large conservative voter base. The issue with the UK is which side does it fit in with.

I think you have your answer - some people subjectively view it as right wing, some as left wing. You are talking about an entire country, presumably over a large portion of its history, and there is no right or wrong answer, just subjective views.

You've been offered other people's subjective views at length but you have rejected these out of hand because they have a different view to yours. Repeatedly stating that you believe UK is conservative and asking people over and over again until they agree with you is beneath the standards of the forum.

Plus, while there may have been some argument about whether the UK is currently out of step with the rest of the EU in terms of social and economic policies, this largely hasn't been debated. So not really a topic on the European Union.

MOD: And with that, the thread is now closed.