Nutrition

lachin

Complete newb here, have been lurking for a while and doing a lot of googling but can't find any definitive answers to my questions.

I got a road bike 6 weeks ago, haven't cycled since I was a kid and have been doing a good bit of running past 3-4 years, 10 milers and half marathons.

I generally exercise first thing and do all my runs in the fasted state. Same as for cycling, been averaging two 40/45k cycles and one 60/65k cycle a week and also fasted. I bring water obviously.

My question is, even though I'm happy going out like this, am I actually impeding my progress? My aim is to hit 100k over the next few weeks but I wonder now will I need to either eat before hand or bring something with me?

Will my fat stores be enough for that length of time on the bike?
Hope this all makes sense and someone can give advice, I know there's the saying if it ain't broken ....but I don't want to hinder my progress either.

Doc07

lachin wrote: »

Complete newb here, have been lurking for a while and doing a lot of googling but can't find any definitive answers to my questions.

I got a road bike 6 weeks ago, haven't cycled since I was a kid and have been doing a good bit of running past 3-4 years, 10 milers and half marathons.

I generally exercise first thing and do all my runs in the fasted state. Same as for cycling, been averaging two 40/45k cycles and one 60/65k cycle a week and also fasted. I bring water obviously.

My question is, even though I'm happy going out like this, am I actually impeding my progress? My aim is to hit 100k over the next few weeks but I wonder now will I need to either eat before hand or bring something with me?

Will my fat stores be enough for that length of time on the bike?
Hope this all makes sense and someone can give advice, I know there's the saying if it ain't broken ....but I don't want to hinder my progress either.

I'm no expert and only got into cycling last year. Due to my job I do have a reasonable grasp of basic nutrition fundamentals. I'd say carry on as you are used to. For performance ie racing or even trying to improve times for a particular distance sportive etc then optimising nutrition might be worth a look. But to be able to hit 100km or higher, or to hang near the front groups on club spins or sportives then you don't need to sweat nutrition too much apart from eating a proper diet in general. As a sensible approach bring food or cash with you as well as two water bottles on longer spins.
To gain some benefit from your spins/training I would recommend eating a proper meal soon after you finish. If that's not practical then use milk or home made or commercial protein shakes. I use bars on long spins and keep gels in my saddle bag 'just in case' but never really use them.

lachin

The minute I come in the door I take more water and a protein shake, shower and then eat so I am eating within half an hour of finishing!

Thanks for your input, at the moment I'm only cycling for enjoyment, taking it handy, only averaging 25kph but happy to stay at that for a while. I got too caught up in 'times' and races when running so now I run just for enjoyment and me-time too!!

biomed32

I would suggest taking along a bananna or some sort of flapjack, particularly on the longer rides. Also as the weather heats up, put an electrolyte tablet in your water such as dioralyte or High5. It will prevent cramping either on the bike or shortly after.

Jack Joll

TBH! your pushing the limit of running out of sugars, blood glucose will only suffice for 2000kcal or 500g Carbs! This is assuming your liver is full. True at low intensity you'll be burning predominetly fat but you'll still be burning carbs also. 25km/h doing 45 - 60km is still over 2 hours and unless your body is efficient at burning fat, your running the gautlet. A slight headwind and you think your doing fine, but it takes a fair bit of effort to cycle 25km/h with a cross or headwind. Dont get deceived. And I definetly wouldn't suggest 100km fasted, I've seen so many lads comfortable for 2hrs and then when they go over 60km and die a death. If your going to do 100km on limited fuel supplies, I'd atleast advise taking something 1:30hr into it, that way it'll have time to absorb, before the jelly legs! Also I'd advise electrolyte drink at all times over 1hr spin, no point depleting sodium stores to be macho!

ford2600

lachin wrote: »

Complete newb here, have been lurking for a while and doing a lot of googling but can't find any definitive answers to my questions.

I got a road bike 6 weeks ago, haven't cycled since I was a kid and have been doing a good bit of running past 3-4 years, 10 milers and half marathons.

I generally exercise first thing and do all my runs in the fasted state. Same as for cycling, been averaging two 40/45k cycles and one 60/65k cycle a week and also fasted. I bring water obviously.

My question is, even though I'm happy going out like this, am I actually impeding my progress? My aim is to hit 100k over the next few weeks but I wonder now will I need to either eat before hand or bring something with me?

Will my fat stores be enough for that length of time on the bike?
Hope this all makes sense and someone can give advice, I know there's the saying if it ain't broken ....but I don't want to hinder my progress either.

Your doing fine, if you want to go longer just bring a banana/apple or whatever (just in case) and obviously increase incrementally.

As your only cycling 6 weeks your body is probably in early stages of adapting to the bike, as you get more mechanically efficient on bike and you get bike fit you will be able to go longer for same amount of energy.

I can't tell you were your ceiling is I'm still playing around with this myself. I regularly, actually all my morning 100km rides or less, are fasted. I've got to 130km ish. On longer rides, like 200km-400km, I still start in a fasted state and just start adding in a little food around 120km or so.(headwind, intensity dependent).

When you are on bike your energy is coming from stored glycogen(in liver, blood and muscles) and body fat. At lower intensities you should be able to recruit most energy from fat (my guide is if I can talk fairly comfortably).

So if you go balls out for 2 hrs I'd expect the knock to come as at higher heart rates your body will chose the glycogen you can't replace without eating rather than the limitless fat supply(maybe 80,000 calories against 2,000). Bring a banana experiment, you won't die! I've done hard 3hr mtb rides fasted nut haven't tried beyond that.

Your body probably has made adaptations from your running which are beneficial to you now on bike. I'd imagine your ceiling is quite a bit higher given where you are after 6 weeks. I had/have a specific reason to find my own ceiling, is there any reason why you don't want to eat anything on bike?

On myths, such as cramping, dehydration etc have a read (@eoin mcgrath posted this last week)
http://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/sports-drinks-sweat-and-electrolytes/

http://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/muscle-cramps-part-i/

http://sportsscientists.com/2013/01/dangerous-exercise-the-hype-of-dehydration-heat-stroke/

http://therussells.crossfit.com/2014/08/28/dehydration-myths-by-dr-sandra-fowkes-godek/

While I'm at myths, if you have enough protein in your diet there is no need to worry about a 30 minute window. If a shake is convenient after run/cycle then suit yourself. From what I've read the 30 mins thing was from tests on elite athletes doing elite level training. Shakes are convenient though!

crashoveroid

For me i would not be attempting to do 100K on fasted state. I know there is alot of buzz about Keto diets or High fat low carb. But there is not one size fits all.

The simple way to put it would you attempt a long journey in your car with low fuel sign on. I would be selective in what days i would ride fasted and what days i would fuel pre ride. for the longer rides i would suggest have a decent breakfast and incorporating all your Macro's. When on the bike i would suggest eating every 30 to 60 mins depending how your fell. As well aim to consume 500ml per hour. No harm in using a Electrolyte and decent drink mix such as Skratch or Osmo in my opinion i found these to give me less gut rot.

Post ride aim to take on water and protein/carb mix. As well plan your meal to include all your macro's.

ford2600

crashoveroid wrote: »

The simple way to put it would you attempt a long journey in your car with low fuel sign on.

Unless you have a hybrid your car doesn't have two fuel supplies... If well rested and fed from previous night I'm not sure how low glycogen stores would be in any event.

Fasted training is independent of HFLC/keto there is at least 2/3 guys on here you eat "normally" and do fasted rides, some very long.

OP is clearly adapted to fasted training and it suits him, why would you change that? If he eats breakfast he will then have to metabolise food while he is exercising; this may cause him bother. The fact he has chosen naturally to train fastet is a fairly strong indicator that it suits him. As you say one size doesn't suit everyone

07Lapierre

I do our club spin on a Saturday morning. For me its a 85-90K spin and I don't eat during it. I do have a large breakfast beforehand. I do bring a 500ml bottle with high 5 in it. I couldn't do the spin on water alone.

It is possible to do 100k without eating but I wouldn't recommend it. I usually arrive home and eat everything in sight!

Bikerbhoy

Jack Joll wrote: »

TBH! your pushing the limit of running out of sugars, blood glucose will only suffice for 2000kcal or 500g Carbs! This is assuming your liver is full. True at low intensity you'll be burning predominetly fat but you'll still be burning carbs also. 25km/h doing 45 - 60km is still over 2 hours and unless your body is efficient at burning fat, your running the gautlet. A slight headwind and you think your doing fine, but it takes a fair bit of effort to cycle 25km/h with a cross or headwind. Dont get deceived. And I definetly wouldn't suggest 100km fasted, I've seen so many lads comfortable for 2hrs and then when they go over 60km and die a death. If your going to do 100km on limited fuel supplies, I'd atleast advise taking something 1:30hr into it, that way it'll have time to absorb, before the jelly legs! Also I'd advise electrolyte drink at all times over 1hr spin, no point depleting sodium stores to be macho!

Simple as ^^^

lachin

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies, sorry not able to reply to all individually at the mo but a few points...

First of all I'm female and not trying to be 'macho' or anything!!

It's not that I 'don't' want to eat during a cycle. It's just that prior to cycling I always ran fasted. Cycling up to 65k at present has been fine for me, not uncomfortable, not struggling( except for those damn hills!).

So my query I suppose was really am I ok to continue like this while increasing my distance? Am I doing myself more damage than good as regards progress, recovery etc?

Thanks again for all comments, I reckon I'll continue as I am, maybe being a banana just in case for longer spins but won't eat it just for the sake of it.

Edit: I don't follow a hf/lc diet, I just eat normally...

Enduro

Bikerbhoy wrote: »

Simple as ^^^

Simply wrong

Enduro

lachin wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies, sorry not able to reply to all individually at the mo but a few points...

First of all I'm female and not trying to be 'macho' or anything!!

It's not that I 'don't' want to eat during a cycle. It's just that prior to cycling I always ran fasted. Cycling up to 65k at present has been fine for me, not uncomfortable, not struggling( except for those damn hills!).

So my query I suppose was really am I ok to continue like this while increasing my distance? Am I doing myself more damage than good as regards progress, recovery etc?

Thanks again for all comments, I reckon I'll continue as I am, maybe being a banana just in case for longer spins but won't eat it just for the sake of it.

Edit: I don't follow a hf/lc diet, I just eat normally...

Keep doing what your doing! You'll get the same benifits from cycling in a fasted state as you do from running. There's nothing special about cycling that makes it more necessary to eat than would be the case with running. As ever, just make sure to build up slowly and steadily to allow your system to adapt as you go.

lachin

Thanks, I suppose what made me question myself was that when I went out with a group everyone bar me stopped to take on gels, bars, banana or some sort. And that was on what I consider a short spin of 60k.

Tenzor07

Don't mind Enduro! He could run from 3-Rock to Djouce and back at midnight in January and not even have so much as a fig roll!

Cycling fasted for us "normal" people" is just plain crazy for many reasons, and at distances of 60k or 100k is really pushing it..

Have at least a source of proteins and fats before your cycle, chicken breast/nuts... Bring a flapjack/banana/fig rolls in your jersey pocket for during the spin...Gels are just for emergencies, you don't need them on a regular spin..

Enduro

lachin wrote: »

Thanks, I suppose what made me question myself was that when I went out with a group everyone bar me stopped to take on gels, bars, banana or some sort. And that was on what I consider a short spin of 60k.

Most people haven't a clue about modern nutrition, fat adaptation etc etc, and are stuck in the "old school" dogma of needing to take on a huge amount of carbs and sugary junk to do anything. Their loss really (and the gain for manufacturers of expensive "sports" psuedo-foods such as power bars, gels, electrolyte supplements etc). The fact that you can do the same cycle as them without needing to stop for food (having developed either a physcial or phsycological dependance) shows that they're the ones who should be worried, not you!

Bikerbhoy

Enduro wrote: »

Keep doing what your doing! You'll get the same benifits from cycling in a fasted state as you do from running. There's nothing special about cycling that makes it more necessary to eat than would be the case with running. As ever, just make sure to build up slowly and steadily to allow your system to adapt as you go.

So you are recommending a virtual hunger strike on the bike no matter of distance once its done gradually.... excellant advice

Lumen

Enduro wrote: »

There's nothing special about cycling that makes it more necessary to eat than would be the case with running

Yes there is. Cycling is more bursty than running.

Bikerbhoy

Enduro wrote: »

Most people haven't a clue about modern nutrition, fat adaptation etc etc, and are stuck in the "old school" dogma of needing to take on a huge amount of carbs and sugary junk to do anything. Their loss really (and the gain for manufacturers of expensive "sports" psuedo-foods such as power bars, gels, electrolyte supplements etc). The fact that you can do the same cycle as them without needing to stop for food (having developed either a physcial or phsycological dependance) shows that they're the ones who should be worried, not you!

Agreed there is a lot of people who need proper advice and education on the above , but there is a middle ground on this subject and that would be to promote beneficial nutritional habits while on longer cycles.
What suits you re your fasting regime is your choice , however that would certainly not be the case or suit the majority of cyclists

ford2600

Bikerbhoy wrote: »

Agreed there is a lot of people who need proper advice and education on the above , but there is a middle ground on this subject and that would be to promote beneficial nutritional habits while on longer cycles.
What suits you re your fasting regime is your choice , however that would certainly not be the case or suit the majority of cyclists

The OP is doing 60km fasted without issue 6 weeks after getting on a bike. She's not the majority of cyclists.

OP best advice I can give is listen to your body; eat when hungry, drink when thirsty and rest when tired.

Happy cycling. Ignore the urge to get wet before a cycle and run afterwards!

Bikerbhoy

ford2600 wrote: »

The OP is doing 60km fasted without issue 6 weeks after getting on a bike. She's not the majority of cyclists.

Im not sure I understand your point .

sconhome

Lumen wrote: »

Yes there is. Cycling is more bursty than running.

In what way "bursty" ?

Intensity of the session is paramount to nutrition requirements. Low intensity pretty much anyone can go out and spin untrained for a few hours. The mental aspect of expecting hunger and having to eat is the biggest barrier.

Go out and flat out race for 30 mins and you will fill the legs with burn which will cause you to stop, not the lack of fuel.

tailendcharlie

Enduro wrote: »

Most people haven't a clue about modern nutrition, fat adaptation etc etc, and are stuck in the "old school" dogma of needing to take on a huge amount of carbs and sugary junk to do anything. Their loss really (and the gain for manufacturers of expensive "sports" psuedo-foods such as power bars, gels, electrolyte supplements etc). The fact that you can do the same cycle as them without needing to stop for food (having developed either a physcial or phsycological dependance) shows that they're the ones who should be worried, not you!

Your at nothing without carbs, you won't be able to do anything in terms of moderate to high intensity. It doesn't have to be gels and power bars, whats wrong with bananas and dates, i race all the time on dates.

desertcircus

If you're comfortably doing 60km fasted, then you're already starting from a superb base - a lot of cyclists can't even imagine doing such a thing, much less go out and do it. Whether to keep going with fasted sessions depends on what you want out of your cycling - pure bike racing would probably require a lot of work at levels above what can be sustained when fasted, but otherwise you're probably OK.

Lumen

AKW wrote: »

In what way "bursty" ?

Most cyclists do not cycle at a remotely consistent effort level, even if they are not racing.

AKW wrote: »

Intensity of the session is paramount to nutrition requirements. Low intensity pretty much anyone can go out and spin untrained for a few hours.

Yes, but almost nobody does this because it is incredibly boring. In fact the only people that do are audaxers (who are immune to boredom) and racers doing specific low-intensity training (who resist the boredom in order to prepare for exciting races).

AKW wrote: »

The mental aspect of expecting hunger and having to eat is the biggest barrier.

No it is not. The biggest barrier is the boredom of going slowly.

AKW wrote: »

Go out and flat out race for 30 mins and you will fill the legs with burn which will cause you to stop, not the lack of fuel.

"Fill the legs with burn" has no basis in physiology. Flat out racing depletes muscle glycogen, eventually rendering the rider only able to ride at fat burning intensity. This is very, very slow in racing terms. If you're hiding in a big bunch on the flat you might get away with it, as soon as you hit a climb you'll get dropped.

Chips Lovell

tailendcharlie wrote: »

Your at nothing without carbs, you won't be able to do anything in terms of moderate to high intensity. It doesn't have to be gels and power bars, whats wrong with bananas and dates, i race all the time on dates.

You might be. That doesn't mean everyone else can't.

sconhome

Lumen wrote: »

Most cyclists do not cycle at a remotely consistent effort level, even if they are not racing.

Thanks, wasn't sure what you meant.

The same is true for a lot of runners though, effort levels in a group run are all over the place too, hit a drag, people dig in to maintain pace = effort / intensity ^

To qualify what I was saying, in the context of general non-racing club cyclists or beginners then this statement might make more sense (?)

Intensity of the session is paramount to nutrition requirements. Low intensity pretty much anyone can go out and spin untrained for a few hours. The mental aspect of expecting hunger and having to eat is the biggest barrier.

Meaning in much the same way that some people running a 5k expect to be thirsty and need to have water. In the vast majority of instances there is no need for drink or gels but people are conditioned to think they need them by what they read or hear around the clubs.

The 'barrier' should have been expounded to identify it as being the barrier to training empty or to encourage fat over sugar (reference to the intensity of the session of course)

Go out and flat out race for 30 mins and you will fill the legs with burn which will cause you to stop, not the lack of fuel.

Again in the context of the average cyclist mentally having sore legs or 'feeling the lactic' or not being able to suffer will cause them to stop far quicker than the depletion of muscle glycogen. You only have to see what a 10 or 20 sec acceleration does to a pack on Sunday morning to see the effect.

That recent Förstemann Vs toaster is a great visual of glycogen depletion and suffering combined.

tailendcharlie

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

You might be. That doesn't mean everyone else can't.

Ah i see what your saying, amphetamines are a hell of a drug :P:P

If you want to raise your ftp you'll have to be carbed up and bring food with you, you could try it without but it would be ****e quality and you'll be struggling to keep the h/r up near the end of longer rides.

if your not raising your ftp then you are just gaining endurance, which is fine if thats what you want

tailendcharlie

OP Can i just ask why you do the rides in a fasted state? Its been proven to lower performance gains as you can only train at a moderate intensity and you actually burn more fat during the exercise but taking the day as a whole you burn more fat with a fuelled ride.

This explains it a bit better than i could.

http://www.builtlean.com/2012/05/29/cardio-empty-stomach/

plus you'll enjoy it more, going for Strava segments and cranking it up hill is what it's all about, happy riding

Chips Lovell

tailendcharlie wrote: »

If you want to raise your ftp you'll have to be carbed up and bring food with you, you could try it without but it would be ****e quality and you'll be struggling to keep the h/r up near the end of longer rides.

This is not my experience. I've raised my FTP (and other power benchmarks like 5 minute and one minute) steadily over the past two seasons. None of my training is done "carbed up" and I'd rarely eat on training spins. I'd eat a few more carbs before races and during them, but I need to be loading up to train.

tailendcharlie

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

This is not my experience. I've raised my FTP (and other power benchmarks like 5 minute and one minute) steadily over the past two seasons. None of my training is done "carbed up" and I'd rarely eat on training spins. I'd eat a few more carbs before races and during them, but I need to be loading up to train.

how long are your rides though?? you can get away with it up to an hour and a half because of the stored glycogen but after that you'll be struggling with high intensity stuff, and if your going to be racing anything over 60k then your going to need over an hour and a half interval training rides. Also if you only started riding a year and a half ago then any sort of consistent training will see some sort of steady improvements. Also if you want to get lean then carb up, the evidence shows that.