Which Flight School

KwackerJack

I am looking at training for my PPL.

I have some flying experience (7.2hrs) form Australia a few years back and I would like to now get back into flying.

Overseas is a good bit cheaper but its the time off work that is an issue. I can get 4 weeks off next year but It will be hard going getting the PPL in 4 weeks unless I sit the exams before hand.

I was looking at Flightwise or The National Flight Center.

Does anyone have any experience of these or am I better heading overseas.

I don't intend to go ATLP as I'm 30 this year and there are a shed load of pilots ready for work.

I will most likely go Commercial, Instructor then twin as personal goal.

martinsvi

I would strongly recommend to stay out of Weston - landing fees will kill you, especially when you're in your circuit training - every touch and go costs money!

I don't want to repeatedly promote a certain club on this forum that I'm a member of, but really, I suggest you look someplace else. When you visit NFC you will hear them talk a lot of crap about other places, most of which will be pure BS, so do your own research and don't believe anything they say. Their exam pass rates are certainly no better than ones from nearby clubs, so really I don't see where they get their smug. If you plan to do your flying in Ireland, you'll most likely end up flying from clubs anyway so it's better to get to know the grass from day one.

Lastly with the current USD-EUR exchange rate, I can bet that you can get an EASA PPL(A) in Ireland cheaper than in the states, as long as you stay out of Weston and from time to time are willing to buy bulk lessons if club offers such deal. To make things even cheaper, EASA allows to carry 10 hours from microlight training to PPL(A) so from 45 mandatory hours, 10 can be on a microlight, which usually costs a lot less to operate. Be smart about it, don't fall for old myths and BS

Alaba320

I'd also echo the above post - Stay away from Weston!! You just need to put the word Flightwise into the search bar of boards to see why you should stay clear of them. NFC are charging ridiculous money for lessons these days! €227 for a C152 I believe! You would get 3 hours for that price if you go abroad. I believe the rates down in Newcastle in Wicklow are quite reasonable, but the way I would do it, is head to Florida for 3 weeks and get it done.

Good luck

KwackerJack

Alaba320 wrote: »

I'd also echo the above post - Stay away from Weston!! You just need to put the word Flightwise into the search bar of boards to see why you should stay clear of them. NFC are charging ridiculous money for lessons these days! €227 for a C152 I believe! You would get 3 hours for that price if you go abroad. I believe the rates down in Newcastle in Wicklow are quite reasonable, but the way I would do it, is head to Florida for 3 weeks and get it done.

Good luck

Most schools in florida say 6 weeks. I can't take 4 weeks off work but not 6!!

Poland seems cheap. 7.5k for 45hrs and all other charges.

Alaba320

If you plan on going commercial and instructor, you wouldn't need to do an EASA PPL in the states, you can start a EASA CPL course using an FAA PPL. The FAA PPL also includes a night rating so that would save a bit of money.

Also, dont be put off going for an ATPL because of your age, with determination (and funds) you could have it done in as little as 2 years which would leave you with 33 years left of flying ahead of you... Plenty of time for the investment to pay out!

You're right in what you say regarding plenty of other pilots on the market, but I've seen things picking up over the last 2 years and, while I wont go on about this looming "pilot shortage" that flight schools will tell you, things are definitely getting better. I was in you shoes a couple of years ago, I had the same worries and concerns, but I took the risk and it has paid off a - I'm now flying passengers around Europe and loving it!

Alaba320

KwackerJack wrote: »

Most schools in florida say 6 weeks. I can't take 4 weeks off work but not 6!!

Poland seems cheap. 7.5k for 45hrs and all other charges.

I did my hour building in Florida and saw guys coming in with nothing and leaving 3 weeks later with a PPL. If you do your theory training before you arrive it will save time.

KwackerJack

I have a good job but saving up and doing the ATPL will take me years so I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Can you recommend any flight schools in florida. I see the European Flight Academy in Florida see to be well equipped and we'll priced.

pepe the prawn

Have a look at bartolini air in Poland, there's lots of Irish going over there to do their multi engine instrument rating and CPL and all I hear is great reviews about them. I believe their CPL MEIR course is booked out until February 2016 but PPL may be a different story

KwackerJack

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Have a look at bartolini air in Poland, there's lots of Irish going over there to do their multi engine instrument rating and CPL and all I hear is great reviews about them. I believe their CPL MEIR course is booked out until February 2016 but PPL may be a different story

I was looking goldwings in Poland. Seem cheaper than bartolini and they can do the ground school here via Skype to save time if I go over

logie101

What about staying in ireland and doing it at a Club. Much cheaper and more enjoyable.
Ulster Flying Club is one to consider. But plenty of others closer to home.

Jeepers is NFC charging €227 an hour for a c152??? That is just crazy. It was €187 an hour a couple of years back and I thought that was crazy expensive.

KwackerJack

logie101 wrote: »

What about staying in ireland and doing it at a Club. Much cheaper and more enjoyable.
Ulster Flying Club is one to consider. But plenty of others closer to home.

Jeepers is NFC charging €227 an hour for a c152??? That is just crazy. It was €187 an hour a couple of years back and I thought that was crazy expensive.

Goldwings are quoting €7500 for everything, all fee's and charges, taxes etc.

Bar accommodation which is 300 per month.

FWVT

logie101 wrote: »

What about staying in ireland and doing it at a Club. Much cheaper and more enjoyable.
Ulster Flying Club is one to consider. But plenty of others closer to home.

Jeepers is NFC charging €227 an hour for a c152??? That is just crazy. It was €187 an hour a couple of years back and I thought that was crazy expensive.

Yes it's 227 dual, 187 solo. Add 20 quid per hour for a C172.

Xpro

Greed greed and more greed. It costs less the 60€ an hour to run a 152 fuel only. You can add a few more quid on top for insurance and some for maintenance and thats it. The rest is all profit.
230€ for a 152? You could fly a twin for that in other countries

If the prices were affordable people would fly more, lower the price and make up on quantity, instead of frightening the customers.

Irish prices are ridiculously overinflated, and FTO schools coming up with BS excuses, overheads,staff,etc.

If other countries can run it for half the price why cant we?

No wonder all the new pilots are going abroad to do their training. How can an FTO turn a blind eye to that? Instead of lowering the price and possibly attracting more customers, but no thats the attitude, Rip everybody off.

KwackerJack

Xpro wrote: »

Greed greed and more greed. It costs less the 60€ an hour to run a 152 fuel only. You can add a few more quid on top for insurance and some for maintenance and thats it. The rest is all profit.
230€ for a 152? You could fly a twin for that in other countries

If the prices were affordable people would fly more, lower the price and make up on quantity, instead of frightening the customers.

Irish prices are ridiculously overinflated, and FTO schools coming up with BS excuses, overheads,staff,etc.

If other countries can run it for half the price why cant we?

No wonder all the new pilots are going abroad to do their training. How can an FTO turn a blind eye to that? Instead of lowering the price and possibly attracting more customers, but no thats the attitude, Rip everybody off.

I was speaking to Liam today in Trim. He quoted €150.00hr C172 Wheels up and wheels down but your logbook is in taco time!! and free ground school and briefings.

He then said that due to being understaffed in regards to instructors that it may be next year before they take on new students but he did tell me where else I could go to train in Ireland and Europe among other tips. You wont get another school dong that never mind free GS & briefings.

That is what you call a club who is purely interested in training and aviation not profit!


Needless to say I put my name on the waiting list.

Alaba320

KwackerJack wrote: »

I was speaking to Liam today in Trim. He quoted €150.00hr C172 Wheels up and wheels down but your logbook is in taco time!! and free ground school and briefings.

He then said that due to being understaffed in regards to instructors that it may be next year before they take on new students but he did tell me where else I could go to train in Ireland and Europe among other tips. You wont get another school dong that never mind free GS & briefings.

That is what you call a club who is purely interested in training and aviation not profit!


Needless to say I put my name on the waiting list.

Log book isn't Tacho time, it's done on Hobbs. If you can get a price based on Tach then you're on to a good thing. About 0.7 tach equates to 1 hour Hobbs provided your not firewalling the throttle

martinsvi

Xpro wrote: »

It costs less the 60€ an hour to run a 152 fuel only. You can add a few more quid on top for insurance and some for maintenance and thats it. The rest is all profit.
230€ for a 152? You could fly a twin for that in other countries

there's a big difference whether you're running a c152 on a permit or on a CoA... you need CoA for teaching students, that means all ADs and SDs need to be implemented, that means sourcing parts for a popular model that's long gone from production line... fuel is about 35 e an hour for mogas, there's your 50h checks, there's your annual... engine overhaul costs roughly 20 grand every 2000 hours, prop is somewhere between 5-10 grand..
if you bought a cessna 152 as a private owner with a private insurance, I just don't see how you can get it under 100 euro per hour wet.. Now add schools insurance, investment, instructors pay and yes -profit, because schools are not charities, what are you left with? If this business would be generating ridiculous profits, everyone would be doing it.. but they're not and many go bust.

and please let me know where you can fly twin for 230E . I wonder what those other countries are and what maintenance they provide because the cheapest training workhorse ever for MEP Be76 are going for 300 euro per hour these days in eastern europe..

Xpro

martinsvi wrote: »

there's a big difference whether you're running a c152 on a permit or on a CoA... you need CoA for teaching students, that means all ADs and SDs need to be implemented, that means sourcing parts for a popular model that's long gone from production line... fuel is about 35 e an hour for mogas, there's your 50h checks, there's your annual... engine overhaul costs roughly 20 grand every 2000 hours, prop is somewhere between 5-10 grand..
if you bought a cessna 152 as a private owner with a private insurance, I just don't see how you can get it under 100 euro per hour wet.. Now add schools insurance, investment, instructors pay and yes -profit, because schools are not charities, what are you left with? If this business would be generating ridiculous profits, everyone would be doing it.. but they're not and many go bust.

and please let me know where you can fly twin for 230E . I wonder what those other countries are and what maintenance they provide because the cheapest training workhorse ever for MEP Be76 are going for 300 euro per hour these days in eastern europe..

Take it as you want, but I can tell you exactly how much it cost to fly a c152/c172/c182/c210 PA/28/ PA48 from personal experiences, flying them all and involvement in share hold ownerships.

This is all on proper CofA and not permits

Now most of the other cheaper places will have monthly cost associated, for annual funds, etc, but If flying just more then 2 hours a month, those cost are fully offset, in comparison to some of the FTO's and aircraft renters.

Prices here are rip off full stop!

I well understand how business's work, and unfortunately our FTO's are taking the advantage on top of making profit.

Re twin prices, just google around and you will find out.

Starting from 230€ to fly a twin tecnam to 360€ for a latest Seneca II G1000 equipped.
I dont even want to think what the twin rate is over here??? If memory serves well, I think touching 500 bells

The truth is if you involved with Weston in any shape, you just cant get out of the box and see the real costs of running the aircrafts.

Another example, Airport flying club is 128€ per hour including instruction. And thats for a mint later 172P model with AP( of course it a club and limited availability) Thats works out at 0.8 tach. 1 tach is 160€.

Go figure.

KwackerJack

The flight school in Poland is situated in an executive airport like Weston.

They Charge 160hr wet/instructor on a 152. That includes all taxes/ landing fees and briefing.

Malta comes up roughly the same while Spain is only slightly cheaper then here.

We do get ripped off and I know so many pilots who tried to fly here only to head away and finish it else where.

martinsvi

Xpro wrote: »

Take it as you want, but I can tell you exactly how much it cost to fly a c152/c172/c182/c210 PA/28/ PA48 from personal experiences, flying them all and involvement in share hold ownerships.

This is all on proper CofA and not permits

that's great, I don't have that experience, I'm looking into buying my aircraft and have been sniffing out the costs for some 3 months now, can I show you my calculations and would you let me know where did I go wrong?

Price for a Cessna 152 is anywhere between 20k to 40k, depening on the state and hours left. Let's assume I buy a C152 for 40k, assuming it comes with 0h prop, 0h engine, fresh ARC/Annual etc. The air-frame will probably have some 3000 hours left on it.

At least once in it's life time I will need the engine and prop overhauled, so thats +30k.
50h check can cost literally anything, but let's just average it out to 500e, assuming nothing terrible is revealed, that's additional 30k in 50h checks during it's lifetime

and then there's static/yearly costs - insurance, let's say a low hour pilot will probably not get anything cheaper than some 2k, hangar/tie 1k, annual inspection 1k.

So to sum it all up, assuming one likes to fly and share the plane with others, let's say 300 hours a year (if it's less, static expenses go up), we get 10 years of service out of it, adding additional 40k in static expenses. That means for 140000 euros we can buy 3000 hours of fun. That's ~47 euros dry. Add 35h fuel you get 87euros per hour. But this is assuming nothing ever breaks. But the plane is some 30-40 years old, you need your reserve fund, because that vacuum pump will go at some stage, windshields will get scratched, tires wear down etc.. so how do you manage run it under 100e wet?

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that 237 euros per hour on a C152 is way too much, but it's not gonna cost 60 euro either. I think including instruction, some 175-185 is a fair price assuming some part of that money goes towards into investing into better, newer aircraft

pepe the prawn

martinsvi wrote: »

that's great, I don't have that experience, I'm looking into buying my aircraft and have been sniffing out the costs for some 3 months now, can I show you my calculations and would you let me know where did I go wrong?

Price for a Cessna 152 is anywhere between 20k to 40k, depening on the state and hours left. Let's assume I buy a C152 for 40k, assuming it comes with 0h prop, 0h engine, fresh ARC/Annual etc. The air-frame will probably have some 3000 hours left on it.

At least once in it's life time I will need the engine and prop overhauled, so thats +30k.
50h check can cost literally anything, but let's just average it out to 500e, assuming nothing terrible is revealed, that's additional 30k in 50h checks during it's lifetime

and then there's static/yearly costs - insurance, let's say a low hour pilot will probably not get anything cheaper than some 2k, hangar/tie 1k, annual inspection 1k.

So to sum it all up, assuming one likes to fly and share the plane with others, let's say 300 hours a year (if it's less, static expenses go up), we get 10 years of service out of it, adding additional 40k in static expenses. That means for 140000 euros we can buy 3000 hours of fun. That's ~47 euros dry. Add 35h fuel you get 87euros per hour. But this is assuming nothing ever breaks. But the plane is some 30-40 years old, you need your reserve fund, because that vacuum pump will go at some stage, windshields will get scratched, tires wear down etc.. so how do you manage run it under 100e wet?

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that 237 euros per hour on a C152 is way too much, but it's not gonna cost 60 euro either. I think including instruction, some 175-185 is a fair price assuming some part of that money goes towards into investing into better, newer aircraft

Off topic slightly, but if you're looking into buying your own aircraft, I think this is unbeatable value for someone


http://www.justplanetrading.com/planes/piper/pa-28-160-cherokee/g-atda

KwackerJack

I would like to eventually buy my own aircraft. My only issue is low or high wing!

If anyone is interested I have an Excel spreadsheet sheet that helps show per hour and fixed aircraft cost.

Pm me your email and I'll send it over.

martinsvi

KwackerJack wrote: »

My only issue is low or high wing!

you're a very lucky man if that's your only worry. I generally don't care if it's high or low wing, as long as it's affordable and cruises well.. Unfortunately you get either cheap aircraft that are relatively cheap to run and maintain (much like c152 or some of the microlights) but they're not cruisers (at 80kt I will probably get bored to death pretty quickly) or something that cruises pretty well (at 120kt or thereabouts, some socatas and bigger engine pipers) but they are gas-guzzlers and maintenance bills can be massive.. Of course you do have things like sportcruiser or NG4 - microlights that will leave any old spam can in the dirt, but they sure don't come cheap

Xpro

If you're looking to buy but not focused on a PPL only, theres a very nice microlight aircraft out there, not cheap but 160kts cruise, 4gph, parachute, high wing, Nasa tested and excellent to fly. This would be my No1 choice.

http://www.pipistrel.si/plane/virus-sw/overview

martinsvi

Xpro wrote: »

If you're looking to buy but not focused on a PPL only, theres a very nice microlight aircraft out there, not cheap but 160kts cruise, 4gph, parachute, high wing, Nasa tested and excellent to fly. This would be my No1 choice.

http://www.pipistrel.si/plane/virus-sw/overview

Yeah, I was looking at these, but the problem with all nice performer microlights is that brand new or even fresh second hand models go for about 70-100k. If I ignore the fact that it's way out of my budget anyway, when you got 70k and you want to buy an aircraft you have to be smart about it. You can get a very decent well equiped c182 for that money and this is where you kind of want your "bean-counter" hat on - we don't know how well or badly pipistrel or any other microlights will depreciate as they are very new. If you buy a c182 for 70k, chances are very good that after 10 years it will still be some 50 grand worth in case you should sell it. Pipistrel - who knows - it might have a similar faith as some socatas - you can pick up a 20-something year old TB9 for a price of a car - surely not what the owners were hoping for when they paid a fortune for it 20 years ago

Wynnie12

Anyone have any recommendations on where to renew MEIR? Was thinking of doing it in Weston till I read this thread.

Cheers

KwackerJack

Wynnie12 wrote: »

Anyone have any recommendations on where to renew MEIR? Was thinking of doing it in Weston till I read this thread.

Cheers

Poland..... That was a recommendation from a flying club here

Wynnie12

KwackerJack wrote: »

Poland..... That was a recommendation from a flying club here

Contacted Bartolini, unfortunately they will only renew for former students

KwackerJack

Wynnie12 wrote: »

Contacted Bartolini, unfortunately they will only renew for former students

Goldwings are very helpful. They will do groundschool via Skype so you can focus on flying when you go over.

I was told that about Bartolini first I'll pm you an email of a guy who said I could train with them.

KwackerJack

My little fella who is 3 is crazy about Heli's. I though id bring him up in one so I called around a few places.

He was already up for a short spin at an airshow but is mad to go up again. So after looking around some schools want €600 for an hours flight in a heli :eek: with the majority costing €400+ but I did find one place charging €200hr for a lesson but that was only at intro rates!

Anyway back to fixed wing, after speaking to a good few pilots, schools, clubs and searching the forums I have decided to stick with my plans to train in Poland.

Every pilot I spoke to complained of schools and clubs holding them back longer and longer on to go abroad and be told their flying is perfect in regards to hours flown!

Spoke to 2 Australian chaps who were told by a club that their license was not 'up to Irish standard' I mean really? com'on for gods sake!

Seems that 90% of schools and clubs here just rip you off and that has been told to me so many times the past few weeks. I have been told by pilots that are member of Irish clubs to train overseas and be done with it.

So unfortunately due to the high percentage of negative feedback in regards to Irish schools I;m heading away. I have already signed the membership forms and will be starting ground school very soon then heading over to jump in the left seat.

martinsvi

that's great, where are you starting then? are you aiming for a CPL/ATPL then?

CalmSummer

KwackerJack wrote: »

Spoke to 2 Australian chaps who were told by a club that their license was not 'up to Irish standard' I mean really? com'on for gods sake!

.

I would have thought that if a club tells you that they aren't up to standard, then they aren't up to standard. They aren't in the profit making business and therefore their main concern is the welfare of the aircraft and the people who fly it. (I'm definitely not suggesting that flight schools aren't interested in safety)
Not all pilots are created equal. I know people who trained in all parts of the world and no one country or training organisation is better than the rest. It depends on what lessons the student takes from it.
So, well done to the club that are trying to hold themselves to a higher standard. Their students and pilots will thank them for it, in the long run.