Some Dublin Bus News

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

The extra 16s operate as regular 16s to Marlay Park. The extra 16s presumably stick around and come back to the city full at the end of the concert 'out of service' via different routes, presumably it's concert ticket entry only.

The regular 16 still runs separately.

What use is the luggage capacity on the southern half of the journey? I was on AX631 tonight from Camden St to Rathfarnham and at no point was the luggage rack needed. Very few seats free too.

It seems the south end of the 16 is often forgotten behind the 'glamorous' airport section. It serves big loads through Rathfarnham, Terenure, Harolds Cross and SCR/George's St long before luggage is needed.

Well unless you operate the 16 as two distinct routes in total isolation, then the same buses operate both north side and south side, and people don't all get on/off in O'Connell Street, but do travel significant trips cross-city, which means that every trip on the 16 will encounter some luggage, and most will also have it south of the river.

I happen to be someone who uses the 16 on the "unglamourous" south side section every day, and it was from that perspective that I made my comment. The frequency and capacity south side is adequate to deal with the peak and off peak loadings on a day to day basis. There are buses every 12 minutes off-peak and every 10 minutes during the morning peak. Much of the route does have alternatives, which helps with the loading (the 9, 68/a and 122 along the KCR, 54a to Harold's Cross, the 49 to Terenure, 15b in Rathfarnham, and the 14 to Ballinteer).

The 16 was just particularly busy yesterday due to thousands of people going to Longitude in Marlay Park. Hence VTs were necessary to deal with the extra crowds and maintain some service for those of us who live on the route.

As to the luggage, well again as someone who commutes on the southern half of the 16, I can tell you that people do get on with luggage all along the route travelling to the airport, and in particular from the SCR onwards. I see it every day. The narrow entrances and lack of luggage space on the VT really do not lend themselves to operating the route on a normal day. They are better suited to other routes which do not have such luggage needs.

dfx-

Well my point is that the 16 is two routes with two distinct demands. The commuting end to the south and the tourists to the north. Running buses suited to one type (luggage for airport) over the other is not great is it.

You must see different 16s that I see. The 16 is always busy. Seeing the extra 16s full on the SCR is not unusual because the regular 16s are that busy. Tonight ex-Airlink VG48 was the second last 16 to Ballinteer with all of its extra luggage space and GT55 was on the route today. At least one of VG47-50 have luggage racks all along its offside. Neither of those are suited to the southern section.

There may be alternatives but people don't take them. People will let the bus go to wait for the 16 that they are familiar with. I saw it last night in front of me. 12 minute frequencies off peak is a fantasy. Perhaps that it says it is, but it isn't.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

Well my point is that the 16 is two routes with two distinct demands. The commuting end to the south and the tourists to the north. Running buses suited to one type (luggage for airport) over the other is not great is it.

You must see different 16s that I see. The 16 is always busy. Seeing the extra 16s full on the SCR is not unusual because the regular 16s are that busy. Tonight ex-Airlink VG48 was the second last 16 to Ballinteer with all of its extra luggage space and GT55 was on the route today. At least one of VG47-50 have luggage racks all along its offside. Neither of those are suited to the southern section.

There may be alternatives but people don't take them. People will let the bus go to wait for the 16 that they are familiar with. I saw it last night in front of me. 12 minute frequencies off peak is a fantasy. Perhaps that it says it is, but it isn't.

There is a difference between a route being busy and not having sufficient capacity. The 16 does have sufficient capacity on normal days. It could however do with the evening and Sunday frequency increasing, as every 20 minutes is too low.

Again at the risk of repeating myself there is significant cross-city usage on the route - including people going to/from the airport. It's certainly not two distinct routes - there is significant cross over.

The buses do leave the terminus every 12 minutes during the day - I can assure you of that.

These sorts of observations on a weekend when thousands of people are attending a concert at one end of the route are frankly meaningless.

As for people not using the other routes, well my eyes must be deceiving me when I see them waiting for them along the route every morning.

KD345

The problem with the 16 is that it's currently running to capacity. This is fine until something happens to knock the service, like a delay in traffic, slow boarding of passengers etc. and when this happens the gap between buses becomes the problem.

A 20 minute service off peak is not sufficient for the 16. The route is regularly full up until last service. One evening recently there were around 150 people waiting for a 16 on O'Connell Street simply because there had been a gap/delay in the 20 minute service which resulted in a wait of over 30 minutes. Thankfully two buses arrived together to take the crowd, but both were full departing. This occurrence happens on an almost daily basis.

I also regularly see passengers being turned away on Georges Street southbound at peak times because the bus is full, this could mean a 25/30 minute wait for the 16 at evening peak.

The only solutions are to increase the frequency to at least every 15 minutes off peak or to use bigger buses on the route which can cope with crowds.

On a positive note, this is clearly a route which is successful and I'm sure that in time it will receive the attention it deserves from the NTA. I just worry about what damage is being caused in the meantime. There are only so many 30 minute waits or overcrowded journeys a passenger will endure before starting to consider other transport options.

dublinman1990

I think the VT's are needed to provide a huge boost to the 16. That will only happen though IMO if one of their depots are not keeping them because of lower passenger numbers on their currently allocated routes.

There is a total of 70 VT's in the DB fleet that are split equally between two garages in Donnybrook & Phibsboro.

How are these buses going to split up if, going by the current reports/rumors, they are to be on both the 7 & 16.

In Phibsboro alone the VT's serve a large number of routes in that depot namely the 37/38/39/a group, 25/a group & the 66/67 group. Don't forget to include the Xpresso's as well as I make that thought.

dfx-

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a difference between a route being busy and not having sufficient capacity. The 16 does have sufficient capacity on normal days. It could however do with the evening and Sunday frequency increasing, as every 20 minutes is too low.

I can safely say your post is the first I've ever read or person spoken to that says the 16 has sufficient capacity. And that the problems on the 16 are meaningless because there's a concert on this weekend. The problems on the 16 are there, frankly, concert or no concert.

The experience of KD345 and people being turned away is the story everyone else tells. Daily. Regularly.

As KD345 says, the route cannot cope with any stress applied to it and when dealing with such traffic bottlenecks, volumes of people and unfamiliar tourists, stresses are applied all the time.

Losty Dublin

I've used the 16 in the evenings post rush hour in recent years on the southside legs boarding both in the city centre and from Leonard's corner; I've occasionally used it heading north side and it's very well filled. It's by a long way the busiest route I've traveled on that late in the evening. There has been many evenings when it's either get the last but one seat upstairs or it's standing room only. Certainly it is reliable frequency wise but it needs more than 8-12 seats per service to improve things.

IMO it could do with a short run board working out both ways from the city centre in the evenings to take some strain from the cross city runs, even 3 if it's just runs a day. The problem is if the driver resources are there to add this to the time table or not.

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

The problem with the 16 is that it's currently running to capacity. This is fine until something happens to knock the service, like a delay in traffic, slow boarding of passengers etc. and when this happens the gap between buses becomes the problem.

A 20 minute service off peak is not sufficient for the 16. The route is regularly full up until last service. One evening recently there were around 150 people waiting for a 16 on O'Connell Street simply because there had been a gap/delay in the 20 minute service which resulted in a wait of over 30 minutes. Thankfully two buses arrived together to take the crowd, but both were full departing. This occurrence happens on an almost daily basis.

I also regularly see passengers being turned away on Georges Street southbound at peak times because the bus is full, this could mean a 25/30 minute wait for the 16 at evening peak.

The only solutions are to increase the frequency to at least every 15 minutes off peak or to use bigger buses on the route which can cope with crowds.

On a positive note, this is clearly a route which is successful and I'm sure that in time it will receive the attention it deserves from the NTA. I just worry about what damage is being caused in the meantime. There are only so many 30 minute waits or overcrowded journeys a passenger will endure before starting to consider other transport options.

Hang on KD345, 150 people waiting for a 16? I find that kind of number rather hard to believe.

Are you suggesting that is remotely a regular occurrence? In 10 years of using it on a daily basis, and 20 years using it irregularly before that, I have never seen that kind of crowd waiting for the bus at one stop. Something must have gone seriously wrong with the service on that day.

To be clear I think that the weekday morning peak service is adequate, as is the daytime off-peak service - there aren't crowds of people being left behind by any shape or form.

Where the service could be improved is during the weekday evening peak (increase to every 10 minutes) and the evenings (increase to every 12-15 minutes), and also Saturday evenings and all day on Sundays (increase to every 12-15 minutes). Also perhaps have several peak extras starting at Parnell Square southbound Monday-Friday.

The main problem with the 16 is that the service does suffer from traffic delays and bunching which can cause problems with the interval between buses. Buses do usually depart from the terminus on time, but get delayed en route.

I do think that since the 14 and 15/a/b were re-routed via Georges Street and Camden Street that people have better options travelling southbound which does reduce pressure on the 16.

I do firmly believe though, that the solution is not putting VTs on the route. Given every bus operates to/from the Airport, they are simply not suitable for that service due to the lack of luggage racks and the narrow entrances.

dfx-

You can retrospectively add luggage racks surely. When AV333-AV340 moved from Harristown to Summerhill, they didn't have racks and were put in by Summerhill.

The issue for VTs for me was firstly there's not enough to go round with 15 tied up in Broadstone. Also the turn at Georges St and especially Leonards Corner but the concert VTs made it.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

You can retrospectively add luggage racks surely. When AV333-AV340 moved from Harristown to Summerhill, they didn't have racks and were put in by Summerhill.

The issue for VTs for me was firstly there's not enough to go round with 15 tied up in Broadstone. Also the turn at Georges St and especially Leonards Corner but the concert VTs made it.

As I said before, VTs would be better used on other busy routes which don't require large luggage requirements.

Better to increase frequency on the 16 as I outlined above, and add some evening peak services starting in the city centre.

KD345

lxflyer wrote: »

Hang on KD345, 150 people waiting for a 16? I find that kind of number rather hard to believe.

I can only tell you what I saw. Two AX buses arrived, one half full and one empty. They both picked up the passengers and both left full. I figured around 150 passengers had boarded. A third 16 arrived a moment later. Perhaps, as you suggest, something had gone wrong with the service, maybe there was an event on at Croke Park or a delayed Airlink, I don't know. But, on checking the RTPI, there had been a gap on the 16 of over 30 mins. You might find that hard to believe, but that's your choice.

lxflyer wrote: »

Are you suggesting that is remotely a regular occurrence?

The queue, no, the gaps in service, yes. Daily, at multiple times. The buses may leave the terminus on time (the 16 has great running time), but as you agree, the bunching along the route can cause issues.

This evening, just before 6, there was a gap of 25 minutes for a 16 on Georges Street. This was at the height of rush hour.

lxflyer wrote: »

To be clear I think that the weekday morning peak service is adequate, as is the daytime off-peak service - there aren't crowds of people being left behind by any shape or form.

There are some issues in Drumcondra. At times it can be difficult to board a 16 in the morning.

AlekSmart

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I've used the 16 in the evenings post rush hour in recent years on the southside legs boarding both in the city centre and from Leonard's corner; I've occasionally used it heading north side and it's very well filled. It's by a long way the busiest route I've traveled on that late in the evening. There has been many evenings when it's either get the last but one seat upstairs or it's standing room only. Certainly it is reliable frequency wise but it needs more than 8-12 seats per service to improve things.

IMO it could do with a short run board working out both ways from the city centre in the evenings to take some strain from the cross city runs, even 3 if it's just runs a day. The problem is if the driver resources are there to add this to the time table or not.

Losty Dub has a very valid point here.

With London often featuring here,and elsewhere,as a model of all things desireable about Bus services,it's perhaps worth noting the significantly higher level of dynamic route management practiced by TfL via it's Centrecomm control system.

This results in very effective and targetted controlling of routes,with individual journeys being managed in real-time to ensure the more efficient operation of the route as a whole.

This is why,for example,a customer can be informed via the iBus system that their journey's destination has changed,and will terminate shorter than planned.

This will involve changing Buses,and TfL even reintroduced a "Transport Voucher" to cater for the increasing need to curtail/manage routes.

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/tfl-make-changes-to-bus-transfer-tickets/

However,in the Dublin scenario,and particularly the route 16 one,the use of a number of "Short Working" alternative destinations (A lá London) should really be considered.

Thus a 16 heading Northbound could be curtailed to Drumcondra Station or Whitehall or Santry,then turning around and working back in the oposite direction.

Equally,southbound 16's could be shortened to Camden St, Mount Argus or Terenure.

The technology exists with LED Destination Displays,and AVL systems to handle all of this automatically,but few if any attempts have been made to move in this direction.

Currently,the only option open to a Controller is to City Centre a journey,and that only from an outer terminus.

With the current City Centre BXD situation,this practice is being short-circuited big-time,which really does demand an innovative response,in addition to shiny ;)new TfIreland logo's

The core principle being to provide the core service level on the busiest sector of the route,even if at the expense of a lesser number of full-journey customers.

thomasj

Just being myschievous , does anyone think extending the 41/c to rathmines or kimmage might ease the pressure on the 16?

I know with increased frequency/capacity.....

eejoynt

One way of increasing capacity is to go straight at Whitehall church, cutting out the meander through brookvillle estate.
This could be served half hourly by a 16a. The same model was used on the 83

AlekSmart

thomasj wrote: »

Just being myschievous , does anyone think extending the 41/c to rathmines or kimmage might ease the pressure on the 16?

I know with increased frequency/capacity.....

This is a very reasonable suggstion,and would also of itself,provide extra capacity on the Drumcondra Road without any extra vehicles being required.

Losty Dublin

eejoynt wrote: »

One way of increasing capacity is to go straight at Whitehall church, cutting out the meander through brookvillle estate.
This could be served half hourly by a 16a. The same model was used on the 83

Back in the day a considerable amount of 16's ran to Harold's Cross and Whitehall only and some ran to Terenure only, something of a throwback to the days of the street tram. There were also some 16 departures working in from Beaumont only at one stage.

LXFlyer

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Back in the day a considerable amount of 16's ran to Harold's Cross and Whitehall only and some ran to Terenure only, something of a throwback to the days of the street tram. There were also some 16 departures working in from Beaumont only at one stage.

There still are short workings on the 16 in the early mornings southbound.

In the normal (non-summer) timetable all of the main morning peak southbound 16 services start from one of:

- Shanard Road (06:20-08:40 every 20 minutes)
- Larkhill (07:00, 08:00 and 09:00)
- Collins Avenue (via Beaumont loop, in reverse direction) (07:10-08:30 every 20 minutes)

rather than from Dublin Airport.

The first 16 from Dublin Airport is not until 08:00 (only the 41 serves it inbound prior to 08:00).

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

There still are short workings on the 16 in the early mornings southbound.

In the normal (non-summer) timetable all of the main morning peak southbound 16 services start from one of:

- Shanard Road (06:20-08:40 every 20 minutes)
- Larkhill (07:00, 08:00 and 09:00)
- Collins Avenue (via Beaumont loop, in reverse direction) (07:10-08:30 every 20 minutes)

rather than from Dublin Airport.

The first 16 from Dublin Airport is not until 08:00 (only the 41 serves it inbound prior to 08:00).

The ones I referred to were spread throughout the day and mainly worked to a short terminus after An Lár. The ones you correctly refer to are mainly peak time runs to help beat traffic but yeah, they are essential for commuters.

thomasj

AlekSmart wrote: »

This is a very reasonable suggstion,and would also of itself,provide extra capacity on the Drumcondra Road without any extra vehicles being required.

And plus given the city's plans to remove any remaining city terminii it would be a wise move rather than bury their head in the sand.

SimonMaher

Alek, having been a victim of dynamically controlled short running departures I have to say I'm not a fan truth be known. If it's a choice of buses being turned along the route (leaving baffled and frustrated passengers waiting at the non-core ends of a route) or more buses being provided then I heartily endorse the latter .

I'm aware of the difficulty this causes for controllers and operators but I reckon that even outside the core area, passengers shouldn't be neglected and left standing. Otherwise, they just get back into their cars and add to the traffic that causes the delays in the first place. Just my two cents as a semi-regular non-core user!

Simon

punisher5112

With the LUAS works taking over there really should be proper road plans in place along with bus stops that can take buses as coaches and taxi are now taking over.

No matter how many extra buses are put on they can't get through the city.

dfx-

lxflyer wrote: »

As I said before, VTs would be better used on other busy routes which don't require large luggage requirements.

Better to increase frequency on the 16 as I outlined above, and add some evening peak services starting in the city centre.

I would be in general all in favour of more frequency. Frequency and capacity are the two most important things. [Incidentally, I've just seen AV395 and AV396 bunch together on the SCR southbound at lunchtime. AV396 was held up answering a passenger query.]

But in the 16s case, I don't see the advantage of piling on more buses, the frequency isn't necessarily the only problem during the day.

I'd not be bothered in the slightest about luggage racks or narrow doors, but there are only 70 VTs and they're tied up on big routes as it is. As is forewarned at the stops, there may not necessarily be room for luggage on the 16. So I wouldn't necessarily be in favour of that. The 39s, 25s, 66s or 46A can't afford to lose them.

Losty/AlekSmart's idea is definitely worth a trial, it seems a clever resolution. And most importantly, it is done in London.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

I would be in general all in favour of more frequency. Frequency and capacity are the two most important things. [Incidentally, I've just seen AV395 and AV396 bunch together on the SCR southbound at lunchtime. AV396 was held up answering a passenger query.]

But in the 16s case, I don't see the advantage of piling on more buses, the frequency isn't necessarily the only problem during the day.

I'd not be bothered in the slightest about luggage racks or narrow doors, but there are only 70 VTs and they're tied up on big routes as it is. As is forewarned at the stops, there may not necessarily be room for luggage on the 16. So I wouldn't necessarily be in favour of that. The 39s, 25s, 66s or 46A can't afford to lose them.

Losty/AlekSmart's idea is definitely worth a trial, it seems a clever resolution. And most importantly, it is done in London.

I was quite specific in that it needs increased frequency at certain times of the day/week (mainly evening peak (shorts) and evenings and Sundays).