Transgender group wants 'gender designations' removed from birth certs.

MakeEmLaugh

A transgender rights group in British Columbia, Canada are fighting to have gender designations (i.e. 'male' or 'female') removed from all birth certificates. The group filed a human rights complaint with the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal, who have agreed to review it.

According to Morgane Oger, Chair of Trans Alliance Society (TSA), approximately 2.5% of Canadians “live with, or have the potential to live with, the wrong sex designation on their documents.”

“It is difficult (for doctors) to tell the sex designation of a child with a 30-second cursory inspection of their genitals when they’re born,” she said.

“Since it is impossible to tell an individual’s gender at birth it is discriminatory to issue a birth certificate with that information on it.”

Transgender people are probably the most discriminated against in the world today. Their identity is an almost constant target of derision and outright hatred, more so than gay, lesbian or bisexual people.

I fully support the right of transgender people to have the gender they identify as recognised on any current legal documents, such as driving licences and passports.

I don't feel that 'gender designations' should be removed from all birth certificates, however. I feel a lot of confusion arises over the use of the term 'gender'. For years, 'gender' and 'sex' were interchangeable, but recently, predominantly in academia, the word 'gender' has come to mean something other than sex: it does not reflect your reproductive organs or the number of X chromosomes you have (one for a male, two for a female), but rather what you 'feel' you are.

Fair enough, then change the wording of the birth certificate to 'sex', rather than 'gender'. Transgender people have rights, but I don't see why that right should extend to forbidding all other people from having the word 'male' or 'female' on the birth certificates of their children.

Duke O Smiley

Yeah I'm gonna say "no"

c_man

I'm sure there's some reason to it but all I keep thinking is of a future which is a mix of that mad planet from TNG where gender was repressed by society, everyone the same, and some mad EU nightmare from the Daily Mail.

RayM

They should definitely change it to 'sex' rather than 'gender'.

Tombi!

http://globalnews.ca/news/2020374/b-c-group-wants-gender-removed-from-birth-certificates-in-canada/
There's the link I could find if anyone wants to take a look

Far as I'm aware some places (at least some states in America), let transgendered people who are on hormone replacement therapy and (I think they need to be) verified by a doctor, they can change their gender officially but it's still marked down as being born a boy for archive purposes buy for all intents and purposes they're marked down as a girl for everything else.
Vice versa if born a girl and goes through HRT to become a boy.
Just to add: the birth cert you'd hand in as ID would have your correct gender; the one in the government archive would have it born as X sex and Y gender or something like that.
In fact I'm actually remembering a mate of mine changing her gender on her driver's licence from male to female after she was on HRT and got approval from the doctor.

Supergurrier

I know lots of women that are dicks and men that can be c**ts.

I for one am glad they now have a chance to embrace who they were born to be.

MakeEmLaugh

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Far as I'm aware some places (at least some states in America), let transgendered people who are on hormone replacement therapy and (I think they need to be) verified by a doctor, they can change their gender officially but it's still marked down as being born a boy for archive purposes buy for all intents and purposes they're marked down as a girl for everything else.

Vice versa if born a girl and goes through HRT to become a boy.

In fact I'm actually remembering a mate of mine changing her gender on her driver's licence from male to female after she was on HRT and got approval from the doctor.

This isn't about changing your gender on driver's licences, etc. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

It's about banning a person's 'gender' being mentioned on all birth certificates in future.

Tombi!

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

This isn't about changing your gender on driver's licences, etc. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

It's about banning a person's 'gender' being mentioned on all birth certificates in future.

She mentions the birth cert she has to use for ID.
Like I said, as far as I was told by a mate, the current birth cert she has has her listed as female but the archived one would be male.

I think in that case then it's fine. But I don't like the idea of removing the gender at all; keep it as an archive but the day to day use that you hand around should be your correct gender. Just makes the whole thing easier for transgendered folk.

Edit: Just saw the bit you're on about at the end of the article which I missed, sorry.

In that case I still think it's bizarre to do. Keep one record with sex and give the "official" one the correct gender only

Mint Aero

I'm sure Ireland will be the first to show what great boys non gender specifics we are by voting yes :rolleyes:

Ireland :rolleyes: historic :rolleyes: great day :rolleyes:

Then loads of heart melt youtube videos with happy tunes :rolleyes:

MakeEmLaugh

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

I don't see why that right should extend to forbidding all other people from having the word 'male' or 'female' on the birth certificates of their children.

A genuine way to look at it. But another perspective worth considering is - why is gender or sex worth recording at all in the first place? It is just an attribute - like many others that we do not record.

Is time and place of birth not enough - coupled with the registered guardians of the child at that time and place? Why is anything else actually that important really?

seamus

For genealogy purposes, the sex of the child is always useful to have, for a number of reasons. Someone attempting to trace genetic health issues, for example, might note that every male born in their family line has died early. And so forth.

If you erase sex information from birth certs, you also erase it from genealogical records.

Doctors also kind of need to know this stuff. If you're found unconscious on the side of the road, it's useful for the doctor to be aware that while you may look and identify as female, that they shouldn't expect to find a womb.

Depraved

No...but everyone should have the choice to change it when they want.

matrim

I'd be inclined to say no. What should probably happen is that an amended birth cert can be released that can be used for official purposes. This amended one would look like an original from an outside perspective and would only record the gender after the change. The original birth cert with the originally recorded gender would be kept for historical purposes but wouldn't be normally available to the public.

anncoates

Mint Aero wrote: »

I'm sure Ireland will be the first to show what great boys non gender specifics we are by voting yes :rolleyes:

Ireland :rolleyes: historic :rolleyes: great day :rolleyes:

Then loads of heart melt youtube videos with happy tunes :rolleyes:

Good to see citizens reaching their daily rolleyes quota.

Carry on.

- Department for the Cerebrally Inert

MrWalsh

seamus wrote: »

Doctors also kind of need to know this stuff. If you're found unconscious on the side of the road, it's useful for the doctor to be aware that while you may look and identify as female, that they shouldn't expect to find a womb.

You could well be female with no womb due to genetic defect or hysterectomy.

I think doctors take each case on an individual basis, there must be hundreds of thousands of cases daily where doctors do not know pertinent information such as what meds a person is on, previous history etc when they see someone who has been brought in as an A&E case.

fizzypish

Birth cert is a certificate of birth. Your current orientation has nothing to do with how you were born. You were born as an X. This is a fact. You currently identify with Y. This is a life decision that you have taken. It doesn't change the fact that you were born as X.

MrWalsh

fizzypish wrote: »

You were born as an X. This is a fact.

No - the only fact is that you were born with X genitals. A baby cannot possibly be asked how they identify.

darkpagandeath

MrWalsh wrote: »

No - the only fact is that you were born with X genitals. A baby cannot possibly be asked how they identify.

Is that not how sex is determined in most cases ? Well unless you are born with both.

Links234

fizzypish wrote: »

This is a life decision that you have taken.

Being trans is not a choice.

seamus

fizzypish wrote: »

It doesn't change the fact that you were born as X.

Well, there's the disconnect between genetic sex and gender identity, which is the main crux here.

There's also the issue that it's not that clear-cut in all cases. XX males, for example, are born with male genitals and appear externally male, but are genetically female.

How the feck do you shoehorn that onto a birth cert - especially when many XX males continue to identify as male.

MrWalsh

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Is that not how sex is determined in most cases ? Well unless you are born with both.

Sex but not gender. As pointed out in the first post, gender has become more about how a person identifies as opposed to a physical characteristic.

Ive only heard of the term cis-gendered in recent years as opposed to being familiar with the term trans-gendered for many many years.

Mint Aero

Mint Aero wrote: »

I'm sure Ireland will be the first to show what great boys non gender specifics we are by voting yes :rolleyes:

Ireland :rolleyes: historic :rolleyes: great day :rolleyes:

Then loads of heart melt youtube videos with happy tunes :rolleyes:

Passive-aggressive Nth degree achieved.

fizzypish

No - the only fact is that you were born with X genitals. A baby cannot possibly be asked how they identify.

Fair point but I believe a birth cert is a factual document about your status at the time of your birth. At this time you have a sex. Its a fact. Some one mentioned the difference between gender and sex. Fair point. Have both on the birth cert.

Being trans is not a choice.
My apologies. Ignorant comment. You develop into transgender? Christ I'm so ignorant....

Actually I'll broaden my POV. I don't think you should be able to alter your birth cert unless there has been a mistake on it. I'm basing this on the idea that, once again, its a factual document. If all the facts are correct at the time of printing, why change. Question? If I legally change my name, does my birth cert get re printed to match my new name? To me anyway, its the same question (About changing your birth cert not equating name changing to being transgender. ****, this is a mine field.......)

darkpagandeath

MrWalsh wrote: »

Sex but not gender. As pointed out in the first post, gender has become more about how a person identifies as opposed to a physical characteristic.

Ive only heard of the term cis-gendered in recent years as opposed to being familiar with the term trans-gendered for many many years.

Says sex on my Birth cert not Gender.

IrishTrajan

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

I don't feel that 'gender designations' should be removed from all birth certificates, however. I feel a lot of confusion arises over the use of the term 'gender'. For years, 'gender' and 'sex' were interchangeable, but recently, predominantly in academia, the word 'gender' has come to mean something other than sex: it does not reflect your reproductive organs or the number of X chromosomes you have (one for a male, two for a female), but rather what you 'feel' you are.

If "gender" and "sex" are different, how then can they claim the doctor won't know the sex of the child by looking at its sexual organs?

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

“It is difficult (for doctors) to tell the sex designation of a child with a 30-second cursory inspection of their genitals when they’re born,” she said.

Regardless of what they feel they are, there's only two sexes. Male and female. It doesn't matter about what you feel you are, genetically you are one or the other (well, there's hermaphrodites, who are the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself).

PARlance

The names that appear on a birth certificate can also change... lets take the names away while we're at it.

PandaPoo

Mint Aero wrote: »

I'm sure Ireland will be the first to show what great boys non gender specifics we are by voting yes :rolleyes:

Ireland :rolleyes: historic :rolleyes: great day :rolleyes:

Then loads of heart melt youtube videos with happy tunes :rolleyes:

Are you having a stroke??

Ash.J.Williams

people should not think this is a lesser issue just becuase we've just passed the SSM referendum, and again they should think about their own kids and what if one of their own was feeling trapped in the wrong body, becasue i would imagine it is a suicide causing living hell if the support isn't there.

Mesrine65

fizzypish wrote: »

Birth cert is a certificate of birth. Your current orientation has nothing to do with how you were born. You were born as an X. This is a fact. You currently identify with Y. This is a life decision that you have taken. It doesn't change the fact that you were born as X.

What about hermaphrodite's?

IrishTrajan

Mesrine65 wrote: »

What about hermaphrodite's?

An exception to the rule does not rewrite the rule.

fizzypish

Mesrine65 wrote: »

What about hermaphrodite's?

Add an extra option on the birth cert if its not there. Maybe I'm mis interpreting the function of a birth cert. I always thought if it as a document of proof of where you were born, to whom, what name you took and your sex. If placing sex on the form is such a big deal and causing people such pain then remove it but I don't think it should be changed after the fact.

StewartGriffin

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

feeling trapped in the wrong body, becasue i would imagine it is a suicide causing living hell if the support isn't there.

How is anyone trapped in the wrong body? Aside from sexual functions all else should work to spec.
Locked in syndrome, that's being trapped in a body, that's a living hell, not wishing you were a different sex than what you are.

folamh

I suppose including sex on birthcerts for medical purposes, begs the question of why a number of other things aren't also on them.

Jester252

People need to remember that sex is important when it comes to health. Males and females suffer from different illnesses.

MrWalsh

StewartGriffin wrote: »

How is anyone trapped in the wrong body? Aside from sexual functions all else should work to spec.
Locked in syndrome, that's being trapped in a body, that's a living hell, not wishing you were a different sex than what you are.

Are you being obtuse or simply ignorant?

If you feel mentally that you are a woman but society imposes a male gender role on you because you appear to be male you are going to have massive psychological issues as a result - surely that is quite obvious and completely different to the physical issue that is locked in syndrome?

Honestly, I do wish people would educate themselves a little before making ridiculous comments.

Ash.J.Williams

StewartGriffin wrote: »

How is anyone trapped in the wrong body? Aside from sexual functions all else should work to spec.
Locked in syndrome, that's being trapped in a body, that's a living hell, not wishing you were a different sex than what you are.

i don;t think they are "wishing" i think they "are"

folamh

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

people should not think this is a lesser issue just becuase we've just passed the SSM referendum, and again they should think about their own kids and what if one of their own was feeling trapped in the wrong body, becasue i would imagine it is a suicide causing living hell if the support isn't there.

People who suffer from anorexia and body dysmorphia also feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, often leading to suicidal ideation. Should surgery to fix their bodies be a viable option for them?

Tombi!

StewartGriffin wrote: »

How is anyone trapped in the wrong body? Aside from sexual functions all else should work to spec.
Locked in syndrome, that's being trapped in a body, that's a living hell, not wishing you were a different sex than what you are.

You should do some research into the amount of transgender people that suffer depression, commit suicide, aren't accepted, bullied, etc.

Its basically being gay in the 1990s and before. Society still has a long way to come on even understanding them and your post shows that

folamh

MrWalsh wrote: »

If you feel mentally that you are a woman but society imposes a male gender role on you because you appear to be male you are going to have massive psychological issues as a result

What does it mean to feel mentally that you're a woman? What kind of thought processes does that involve?

Tombi!

folamh wrote: »

What does it mean to feel mentally that you're a woman? What kind of thought processes does that involve?

That's like asking a straight person how a gay person feels...
Anyway, suicidal thoughts are one the main thought processes. Give me a few moments and I'll find a link

Tombi!

http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/transgender-suicide/

StewartGriffin

I understand the concept and sympathise fully, it's the cringe-worthy amateur dramatics of people who describe it as being "Trapped" that annoys me. Transgender people are not "Trapped" Locked in Syndrome sufferers are Trapped. The suffering of one is nowhere near comparable to the other.

But please, do feel free to be outrageously offended by this observation.

Tombi!

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I understand the concept and sympathise fully, it's the cringe-worthy amateur dramatics of people who describe it as being "Trapped" that annoys me. Transgender people are not "Trapped" Locked in Syndrome sufferers are Trapped. The suffering of one is nowhere near comparable to the other.

But please, do feel free to be outrageously offended by this observation.

Yeah killing yourself to escape isn't a sign your trapped .
Just probably let the roast overcook and you decided ending your life is a fine solution.

Specialun

Bla bla will this now happen in ireland now ze gays have rights and stuff bla bla blaaaaa

folamh

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

That's like asking a straight person how a gay person feels...

Whenever I ask a trans person in virtue of what do they feel they're a woman, I usually get some variation of pink-and-emotions.

MrWalsh

folamh wrote: »

What does it mean to feel mentally that you're a woman? What kind of thought processes does that involve?

Youd have to ask a transgender person how it feels, I do not have access to other peoples feelings.

Tombi!

folamh wrote: »

Whenever I ask a trans person in virtue of what do they feel they're a woman, I usually get some variation of pink-and-emotions.

What about transgender men or have you never asked any?

MrWalsh

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I understand the concept and sympathise fully, it's the cringe-worthy amateur dramatics of people who describe it as being "Trapped" that annoys me. Transgender people are not "Trapped" Locked in Syndrome sufferers are Trapped. The suffering of one is nowhere near comparable to the other.

But please, do feel free to be outrageously offended by this observation.

So how would you describe it then? Oh wait, you described it as people "wishing they were different".

I wish I was an Olympic athlete or a super model all the time, its not the same as actually being one gender mentally and one physically.

Why do we need to have a top 10 of suffering in order to help people anyway?

folamh

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

What about transgender men or have you never asked any?

Usually some variation of I'm-so-rational-and-I-like-video-games.

It must be very hard to have your whole identity completely at odds with whats in the mirror and how you're related to. When everything lines up its not something you need to give my head space to, and when it's asunder it must be very discordant physically and mentally.

It's hard to imagine from the outside looking in but we should at least try to listen to those who are actually experiencing it, whether or not we can understand.

Zhane

Mint Aero wrote: »

I'm sure Ireland will be the first to show what great boys non gender specifics we are by voting yes :rolleyes:

Ireland :rolleyes: historic :rolleyes: great day :rolleyes:

Then loads of heart melt youtube videos with happy tunes :rolleyes:

You need to stop eating Lemons, they are really bitter.