Thinking of quitting psychoanalysis

LegacyUser

Hi,

I need some advice on my counselling which seems to be going wrong – it is not as I expected.

To summarise, I've been to a number of counsellors in the last 10+ years for fixed number of sessions. My issues are primarily around social anxiety, confidence, loneliness/isolation, depression and passive aggressiveness.

It is now at the stage whereby I've exhausted most possibilities in the fields of CBT and IPT etc. within the Health Service. Currently I'm am attending a private psychoanalyst who charges me approx €90 per session.

My problem is that since starting these sessions, my mood has become lower, much lower. I resent my analyst (she would not (could not) give me any details of time span required and nor could/would she tell me if she was able to help anyone in my situation before). Afterwards, a few sessions later when I challenged her about this (when stating that I resented her) she gave viable reasons for her answers, but it seems that in my mind the damage is done and I am struggling to shake off this resentment/anger for her refusing to answer questions that I obtained from a psychology website detailing how to pick your analyst.

Now, my moods are low and I believe I have slipped back into depression. There are one or two other things happening in my life too and combined I'm beginning to feel a bit swamped.

I try to engage in my sessions, but for some reason I just can't talk. She asks me what I am thinking, but I can't speak. Last night it was the same story, but after asking the question and me not being able to respond, we sat in silence for 25 minutes. This really annoys me. I know I should speak up and that is part of my problem. However, I strongly feel that by paying her €90 per hour that she should earn her money and try to coax something out of me. I really don't think that sitting in silence is acceptable and as the silence went to my anger and frustration got to the point whereby I walked out 5 minutes before end time without acknowledging her. I feel that I'm paying too much for her to sit in silence literally earning money for nothing for such a period of time. This is a bit commitment mentally and financially to me. I'm not being silent for a joke. I'm getting really annoyed at how long these silences are going on for and it is breaking down the relationship/trust between me and the analyst.

I have problems – yes I admit that, many of them. But I'm not sure if this is the start of things getting better or if I should just cut my losses (approx €1,000) and move on. She is apparently a well known and respected analyst, but I'm just not getting what I want out of this. Or maybe, this is how it all works and is part of the process. I've asked about this and she says it is not a game. If I leave now I've wasted €1,000. If I stay on I could potentially waste another €2,500 - €4,000.

The silences (and her lack apparent lack of interest getting the info from me) have worn me down – now to the point whereby I see them as a challenge to see how long I can remain silent. Surely this cannot be a healthy situation? I always go into all my counselling sessions with some degree of optimism but now I'm wondering if this chapter is irreversibly damaged.

I really don't see what I'm paying €90ph for here. Am I being unreasonable to expect someone who earns this amount of money to work a bit harder for it?

In my view there has been little or no progress since starting. I'm more depressed than I have been in a long time. I've no energy for the gym – numerous times now I go, but leave without having done any exercises. I'm grumpy. I'm continually angry. I get no enjoyment from anything. I have lost the drive to continue learning a foreign language – something I used to enjoy doing. Yes, there are other issues in my life, but the common factor in all this are the sessions with the analyst.

Am I being unreasonable? Is this how analysis works? Should I tough it out (at €90ph) or should I cut my losses and try another analyst (back to square one again...)?

LegacyUser

psychopatient wrote: »

Hi,

I need some advice on my counselling which seems to be going wrong – it is not as I expected.

1.To summarise, I've been to a number of counsellors in the last 10+ years
2. there are other issues in my life, but the common factor in all this are the sessions with the analyst

The common factor is not the therapist, it is you.

To be honest, if you went to the best psychotherapist in the world, they're not going to be able to tell you they can help you, they can only hope that they'll be able to help you - no guarantees.
You cannot lay the blame at her door.
You've been with so many professionals in a decade, that speaks for itself.
Either they're all useless or you need to take a different direction.Perhaps you need to take medication to control the depression? A decade is too long to be battling the same issue without resolve.Don't you think?

Why not show your post to the therapist, it clearly says what you cannot seem to say to her face.

Saralee4

I don't know really know anything about psychoanalysis but there are a few lines in your post that might suggest that you are directing your pain or anger towards your analyst. I don't think it sounds like she is playing a game, it sounds like you are turning the sessions into a power game.

"The silences (and her lack apparent lack of interest getting the info from me) have worn me down – now to the point whereby I see them as a challenge to see how long I can remain silent."

I understand that it must be annoying to have to pay that amount of money. You have to want to be there though. It is her job to guide you but you have to be willing to open up and really want to change.

Your focus is on the relationship with the analyst rather than the relationship with yourself which is what you are trying to improve. The analyst can only help you to a certain extent. Whether or not she has had other successful clients is not going to make a difference to your case. Let her listen to you. Tell her how you genuinely feel about things even if they are bad.

The only way you can help yourself is if you come to terms with the fact that you are stuck with some bad habits i.e passive aggression, blaming etc. You need to look internally and stop focussing externally on your problems. It is easier to blame the analyst when there is no quick fix. Passive aggression is one of the worst things because you end up ashamed of your own actions, then in order to feel better and give yourself some comfort, you blame someone else as a reason for the passive aggression. All this brings more shame and self deceit and you end up in a vicious circle.

Try not to think about the analyst in your session. use the time and the money spent to focus on yourself. Forget about whether or not her motives are correct or not in your eyes and be determined and look to your own motives for the treatment. You are depressed, you are angry etc, and you are trying to find a way to deal with those emotions the best you can and learn new ways to express and deal with those emotions. That is what you need to be concerned with here. Being quiet with the analyst is not working, so open up. Tell her what is bugging you that day. Tell her that you get annoyed having to pay. Tell her that you find it so difficult to open up to anyone. That sometimes you don't understand. Give her examples of times when you have reacted badly and ask her, how should I have dealt with that? explain the emotions you felt at the time and why you felt justified in your actions. You need to learn to connect with her and trust her more.

I'm currently seeing a psychoanalysist for various reasons right now - it's a low cost one, so they're a trainee. Anyway regarding the silences, she explained this to me that she often would go quiet, mainly because it was a tactic to let everything I might have said sink in, for me to think about what I've said, and for the emotions to come. It's not their job to talk about everything. It's up to you to do the work. And maybe you're misunderstanding their not being interested as their being professional.

Are you doing anything else alongside your sessions? Get out more, join a gym, exercise more, look at your diet. Join up to meetup.com and go to things that interest you.

Therapy sessions should never be your only means of getting better.

blatantrereg

Don't see the point of spending that much money on something that's not helping you. I think people put too much faith in counselling as a whole to be honest. Some people respond well to it, some people don't at all. Personally the occasional time I've tried it I found it annoying at best.

Being grumpy constantly can be a result of frustration. I reckon you're too hard on yourself, and that that results in frustration. I think people generally are more likely to lose interest in things like the gym and learning a foreign language than they are to sustain a continual focus on them.

Use the money to do something you think you might enjoy. A holiday to the country whose language you've been learning for example.

LegacyUser

OP, everything you have ranted on about in your opening post (and many previous posts in another thread) you should be discussing with your therapist. It is your responsibility to get better, not your therapist's to "make" you better. It's your job to tell her what you expect from her, from the sessions, from life, from yourself. Her job is to help you understand yourself - what you will do with this understanding is completely up to you (this is the goal of psychoanalysis, if you want more practical tools, then you'd need to look at different types of therapy).

Therapy is the perfect place to spill all the rage, anger and resentment you feel for your psychoanalyst, but it's up to you to do this. Right now you choose to be passive and you choose to blame the therapist for not trying harder. Start taking responsibility for your therapeutic process by telling your therapist what you think of what's been happening so far and what you think of her, and see where you go from there. If you keep passively waiting for a therapist to fix your problems you have with yourself, you will be waiting forever!

MrWalsh

Did you post about this here recently OP?

Personally as far as the medical community is concerned I have a 6 week threshold for all treatments, both physical and mental. If there is no improvement within 6 weeks then I would move on.

I must ask you why you choose to sit in silence though? Thats your own choice. You are paying the counseller for her expertise, not so you can choose to be silent and fume about how she isnt doing her job by trying to get information out of you. It just sounds counterproductive.

As far as counselling goes (Ive only personally experienced group therapy) you have to be willing to try to help yourself - sitting in silence is not going to achieve that. Id be talking the hind leg off a donkey, blurting out each and every feeling, thought and notion I had in there if I were paying someone 90 euro an hour to listen!

Dark Phoenix

Op I was going to ask the same thing - did you already have a lengthy thread a while ago about the exact same thing? Personally I think after ten years, if you genuinely want to get better you have to take accountability and responsibility for yourself. if you have had 10+ years of therapists / analysts and none have worked then to be blunt the problem is you. yet ten years down the line instead of being desperate to help yourself and throwing yourself into this latest attempt, you are sitting in silence and wasting money on therapy that cant possibly work because you wont participate.

read your original post - you are still effectively blaming the analyst yet the problem is most likely to be due to your lack of participation. You are the problem but unless you can acknowledge that and let go of these boundaries and frustrations and actually open up to your analyst, you wont be the solution

Penny Tration

Op, you posted a pretty much identical thread not long ago.

Did you take any of the advice you were given?

Because you're back, repeating the exact same things, to be blunt.

If you refuse to speak to your psychoanalyst, how can you expect her to do her job properly?

Faith

OP, you can start all the threads you like on this issue, but unless you actually take the replies on board and implement the changes recommended, then it's totally pointless.

Anyway, the below sentences stood out to me:

psychopatient wrote: »

She asks me what I am thinking, but I can't speak.

I know I should speak up and that is part of my problem.

However, I strongly feel that by paying her €90 per hour that she should earn her money and try to coax something out of me.

I really don't think that sitting in silence is acceptable

Your problems are all your own, but you refuse to take responsibility for them. You can't speak, you can't answer her questions, yet in your head, it's her fault for not "earning her money" and "coaxing" you. The transference is strong in this one. The feelings you're having about your therapist are reflections of the feelings you have about yourself. You're frustrated with your therapist because you can't make yourself speak. Can you see that all of the power is locked up inside your own mind?

In your first thread that I recall, we guided you towards how to react when those silences occur. It seemed like you took the guidance on board, but you clearly didn't. On an intellectual level, you're well aware of what your issues are, but you lack the insight to translate this into action.

What might work well for you is to set yourself goals for each session. Small ones, like "If there is a silence, I will fill it by telling the therapist how much I resent these silences". Another goal could be "I'll aim to speak for several minutes about why these silences anger me so much", or "In the next silence, I'll just start talking about whatever comes to mind, be it the weather or any issue I'm having or anything in between". You're not gaining anything from your sessions because you're not engaging in them. You're sitting there being challenging and resentful, deliberately not saying anything. You think you're hurting your therapist by acting like this, but you're only hurting yourself.

However. The therapeutic relationship is the most important element of therapy. If you're not gelling with your therapist, and you totally refuse to let her in even a crack, then you're wasting both of your time. You either need to change, or you will stay as you are forever. It's totally up to you which one you choose, but I'm going to be blunt: The problem is not the type of therapy or the therapist, it's you. You have to engage in therapy for it to work.

Finally, one last thought. I'm not diagnosing or offering any medical advice, but has anyone ever suggested a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder to you? A therapy called Dialectical Behaviour Therapy (DBT) is the most effective treatment for BPD and similar disorders. If you do choose to find a new therapist, I'd encourage you to try DBT. It's a much more active therapy than psychoanalysis, and it's much closer to CBT. It may be beneficial for you if you can't make things work with this current therapist.

LegacyUser

Tell her that you get annoyed having to pay. Tell her that you find it so difficult to open up to anyone. That sometimes you don't understand.

OP, everything you have ranted on about in your opening post (and many previous posts in another thread) you should be discussing with your therapist.

Why not show your post to the therapist, it clearly says what you cannot seem to say to her face.

I have told her all this - the fact that I resent her, the fact that I stay quiet on purpose, that I feel like I wasting money and not getting my expectations - I told her it all.

A decade is too long to be battling the same issue without resolve.Don't think?

Yes, I do think it is too long. I told her this and that I don't believe that all my previous counsellors were not capable of helping me and her reply was that I've had no counselling as my previous counselling sessions were bounded to a certain number of seesions and that it can take years to resolve issues. It can't be done in 10 - 20 sessions. I asked her if I should just accept this and she asked me if I was happy. I said 'No'.

Let her listen to you. Tell her how you genuinely feel about things even if they are bad.

Id be talking the hind leg off a donkey, blurting out each and every feeling, thought and notion I had in there if I were paying someone 90 euro an hour to listen!

I'm well aware of this and it frustrates me that I can't do this even after talking to her about it. I really find it difficult to talk to her. We did discuss the silences in depth, but nothing has improved.

Are you doing anything else alongside your sessions?

I now have little energy or enthusiasm for anything. I struggle at the gym - I can hardly lift the weights that I was previously able to lift. I've now got negativity in my mind that I can't lift them and I can't break the circle. Light weights feel so much heavier now.
In regards to socialising - I have no friends and no social life. I rarely/never go out. I used to like going to the cinema, but not any more. I've become more reclusive with the exception of the gym.

I must ask you why you choose to sit in silence though?

I didn't choose to sit in silence. She would say to me (and still does) 'What's on your mind?'. I didn't understand what she meant. I asked her what she meant. She repeated the question. I got frustrated. I told her I didn't undertand what she wanted me to say. She rephrased the question slightly. I still didn't understand. I got pissed off with her. We sat in silence for a while. I didn't know what to say. I waited for her to try another tact. she didn't. I got more frustratred irritated with the silence and decided that I was not going to speak until she did.
We talked about it. I told her all the above about the silence. How I hate it. How I don't know what to say. I get frustrated and when the silence goes on I get angry and stay silent until she speaks. Nothing has improved since.

to be blunt the problem is you

Do you seriously think I don't know this? Really?

because you wont participate.

Can't not won't. Big difference.

Did you take any of the advice you were given?

Yes, I did speak to her about it. You are all focusing on one issue. Things have expanded now to bring in a big increase in depression, bad thoughts, anger, lack of drive/energy and withdrawal.
If it was as easy as your post suggest, then mental health issues would not be as big an issue as they are. You are totally dismissive/blasé of the struggles I have and deeply ingrained thoughts and issues. Everything is easy if you are good at it.

has anyone ever suggested a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder to you?

Nope. Never heard of it. I'll look it up. Might give me something to talk to her about.

Penny Tration

Op, you quoted my post and said "Everything is easy if you are good at it," and mentioned us dismissing your struggles.

I'm dismissing nothing, and no, everything isn't easy. I have mental health issues and have been in therapy on and off for ten years, since I was a teenager.

The fact of the matter is, you're not opening up to the psychoanalyst, then in another breath you throw all the blame onto her.

Do you have a habit of passing the blame back to the therapists you've seen that didn't help? Because tbh, there's only one common denominator.

If you're so busy being angry and self pitying, that you won't (not can't, refusing to speak is a choice) speak to her, you should stop seeing her and find someone who will help you, or speak to a psychiatrist about medication combined with therapy.

MrWalsh

You gave a very long response OP but I'm just going to specifically address the sitting in silence bit.

It IS your choice. Please believe that. It's true. She asks "what's on your mind?", the opener is there for you to talk about whatever you want. What is there to understand about that question? The context is that you are paying a professional to help you resolve mental health issues, so in that context, the question means "talk about your problem".

What do you envisage as "how it should be"? What is your expectation?

What does she say when you tell her you feel things have become worse?

As an aside, are you on any meds for your depression?

Faith

The more I read your posts, the clearer it is that there's a chasm between your brain and your mind, so to speak. They're not talking to each other. You are intelligent and articulate and you can say "X is my issue, and yes I'm aware I'm in control of it and I know it's my problem" but you can't translate that into action. Psychoanalysis requires a lot of self-awareness, and I don't think you have the capacity for that yet.

Out of curiosity, are you aware of the negativity in your most recent post? Are you aware that you cherry picked sentences from posts that you almost exclusively challenged? You ignored any helpful direction and focused on what you didn't agree with. You also have only reported negative outcomes from your sessions. Has anything positive happened?

I'm not sure I personally see a point in you continuing with psychoanalysis because you don't seem able to engage with it at all. You're totally closed off. And as you said yourself, it's increasing negative symptoms in you. However, I do think the appropriate therapy is crucial for you to begin to allow yourself to open up, and to bridge that gap I mentioned between your brain and mind. How did CBT work for you?

I'd strongly recommend that you seek out a qualified professional with training in DBT, preferably one who specialises in the area. Meet with them and just have a consultation about whether they feel that DBT would be a useful approach for you. It focuses heavily on areas like distress tolerance and emotional regulation. It also takes the approach that the therapist explicitly acknowledges that you're doing your best, but that you lack certain skills needed to function appropriately. I feel like that reinforcement and support would be more beneficial, given your frustration with being tasked to take on all the responsibility for sessions. DBT therapists take the position of an ally, and accept and indeed validate all emotions that the client feels, while also identifying to the client when those thought patterns are harmful or maladaptive and guiding them towards more positive approaches. Psychoanalytic therapy can be really useful in certain cases, but it may not be the best for you.

no.panic neva.panic

OP, after reading your last message, I really don't think that psychoanalysis is the right type of therapy for you. It's not for everyone and not for every type of a problem, and in my opinion it's a lousy option for someone with low energy and depression. Having studied psychoanalysis (and other types of therapy) in University I strongly believe that psychoanalysis can be a good self-development tool for people who are relatively emotionally and mentally well, but it is not a good tool for addressing issues caused by old, unresolved trauma.

If you are not excited (or even able) to say "what's on your mind", then psychoanalysis is the last thing you should be spending your money on.

You need an eclectic therapist. Someone who is able to transition from one type of approach to another, based on your current goals and needs. If you are not aware of your goals and needs, you need someone who will help you figure it all out. You need to learn some coping strategies, learn to release anger and soothe yourself, you need to start working on changing your thought patterns, address your social issues, and so on - all these goals require different therapeutic approaches.

Wise, eclectic therapists and counselors are out there. I'd recommend that you look for one of those - not a CBT specialist, not an IPT therapist, not another psychoanalyst - an "eclectic therapist" should be your keyword. All the best!

Est28

I think this really just is what these people in these professions do.

To me, it's all snake oil. Just personal opinion though, to some people, the placebo effect seems to make them feel better.

It's really the same thing with them all... you go to them with a problem, promise you the world if you are their client.
But once you "sign up" it's just as you said. If you confront them about the lack of progress or things like the sitting in silence, they'll all have excuses to convince you this is their "method" but basically they have no method at all. What sort of a job could you sit there and do nothing for 25 minutes? None! But it's just allowed with these people, you can't argue with them because they'll have some schpiel about how it's all "part of the process" which is BS really, all this "letting it sink in", "letting you think it over". I mean, if you didn't answer for a minute fine, she should realize somethings going on in your head and change her question or approach or whatever to make progress....

... however, it's easier for her to take your money for doing zip, blame you for lack of progress then be happy to take your money next time for the same.

Just be warned if you try to leave they also play a lot of mind games to try make you feel bad, like you have major problems and only THEY have the answers, if you'd only come back one more time... lol. Jedi mind trick stuff there.

I went to a councellor when I was in college, nothing major but a bit stressed with a bunch of stuff. Up to about 2 years ago she was still emailing me, that was about 10 years since I first met her. And to that day every email was the same story. "You're not dealing with your issues, you're life will be nothing if you don't come back to me".... it was like dealing with a manipulative ex who can't let go.

Just be prepared for that side of things. If you find it's helping, stay and work with them. If it's not, what's wrong with moving on to something/someone else?

LegacyUser

Thanks all for the replies.

My last counsellor left me with the option of returning to her for a chat if I thought things were not working out. I might have to take her up on that offer .

Out of curiosity, are you aware of the negativity in your most recent post? Are you aware that you cherry picked sentences from posts that you almost exclusively challenged?

No, I was not initally aware of any negativity. Re-reading it, yes there is a bit, but mostly it is just truth/opinion. I didn't set out with the aim of being negative.

How did CBT work for you?

It varied from counsellor to counsellor. I'd feel positive at the start, but then things would stagnate and then as the session count got near the end, i'd throw in the towel. Soemtimes I got on well with the counsellor, but other times we just did not hit it off. Most times it was okay. However, my present analyst is adamant that I've 'never been in counselling before' because of the low number of sessions assigned with each professional.

I'd strongly recommend that you seek out a qualified professional with training in DBT, preferably one who specialises in the area.

I've done a quick google and there doesn't seem to be (m)any in my area. I could ask my previous counsellor if this falls by the wayside.

What do you envisage as "how it should be"? What is your expectation?

Not sure what you are quoting here. Do you mean "Is this how analysis works?"? If so I don't know. I'm frustrated and angry with myself that I can't speak my mind with her. It is costing me money - a lot of money - and I just can't force myself to speak. Do you not think this crap is continually spinning through my mind during the silence? Do you realise just how daft, angry, awkward, embarrassed, and foolish I feel for not being able to speak? I'm not a big talker. I don't open up to anyone. Our family doesn't talk/converse much. I've told her this.

What does she say when you tell her you feel things have become worse?

It really has only plummeted in the last number of days. I was depressed before, but it was a gradual decline so I didn't really appreciate what it was until it fell off a cliff at our last session when I walked out in frustration/protest.

As an aside, are you on any meds for your depression?

Nope, and I really don't want to. I want to sort myself out, not bury it under prescription drugs.

you can't translate that into action.

!!!
This is what I keep telling all my recent counsellors/analysts - I know what is wrong, I need help sorting out why I can't/won't do anything about it. I know I need to get out more. Inteact more. Join clubs. Go to classes. Show an interest in people/things. Find an interest. But I can't. But I won't. Why? As the years roll by, the rut gets deeper and more difficult to get out of. I keep saying this. I keep saying this. I keep telling them this. Soooo frustrated.


Part of me knows that I'll continue going to this counsellor until the cows come home. I go in the vague hope of something chaning to make my life better - a life and not an existance. To live and not be waiting to die. Even though there is no progress, I always have that same hope that someone has when they buy a lottery ticket - maybe next week... It is like I'm now addicted to counselling. I make no progress and promise myself no more. Next thing you know I'm attending someone else. Difference now is that it comes out of my pocket. Although the financial side itself is not motivation enough for me to progress.

I don't know how to progress. I've not really had any friends in 40 years. No real social life. The bar is set quite low here.

I don't know how to live. I don't know if I can now after so many years in this place that I exist. I don't like where I am, but I'm totally scared and unable to move out.

I want this analyst to work out for me - in the same way that I had so much hope and energy at the start of all my other sessions. But, nothing changes. Why? I'm not lazy - I am a regular at my gym and am in good shape. I can converse - I get on well and chatty with work colleagues. I have some level of intelligence - 3rd level education. But there is something stopping me socially. Something that stops me going out into the world. The longer it continues, the more difficult it becomes - the deeper the stain soaks. Do I give up and accept that this is me? Do I continue trying to find a solution? Why do I continue looking for a solution if I can't/won't be open to it? I don't even think I have seen a solution.
Why can't I talk to my analyst like this?
I feel like crying, like I'm a stupid child.

Faith

Firstly, I'm not a huge promoter of medication to deal with a lot of mental health issues. I feel, like you, that it just papers over the cracks a lot of the time. But sometimes, when you're very low, medication can be really useful to get to to a point where you're capable of dealing with your issues. In that situation, you use medication and psychotherapy concurrently until the therapy is successful enough to allow you to taper off the medication. Given you describe being so low, I think it would be a good idea to speak to your GP about a low-dose antidepressant.

Secondly, psychotherapy falls into two main categories:

1. Regressive, where the therapy aims to go back to the past and uncover what caused the root of your issues, and deal with it from there forward
2. Progressive, where the past doesn't matter; all that matters is the future. The past is left in the past and you just learn new strategies to move forward with your life.

Which sounds more appealing to you?

On the mutism thing - what happens for you internally when you can't speak? You said you feel a lot of emotions because you can't speak, which is one thing, but what are the feelings that stop you speaking in the first place? Is it fear? Shame? Embarrassment? Guilt? Try to identify what it is that's getting in your way. That's step 1.

You write very clearly and eloquently. How would you feel about writing down some of your feelings? Think about those feelings that are stopping you from speaking - could you write them down? Could you read them to your counsellor? If you feel that reading things in the sessions would be possible, maybe you could work that in to them. Jot your thoughts down over the course of the week and read them out in sessions. By the sounds of it, you're basically developing a phobia and you need to overcome that.

For reference, here's a link to the HSE's DBT services in Ireland: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/Mental_Health_Services/dbt/proj/

I still feel that that would be a good avenue for you to explore.

MrWalsh

When you're sitting there in silence, why don't you bring a notebook and paper and write down what's in your head rather than speak it?

Why don't you show her this thread?

Why don't you consider meds as a short term assistance that will enable you to reach a breakthrough point with therapy? Seems madness not to consider it when you've been trying to use therapy unsuccessfully for 10 years.

I had a friend who, like you, had unsuccessfully tried therapy for years. She felt the therapists weren't doing their job either. She got worse and worse, head spinning, suicidal thoughts etc... Eventually I more or less forced her to make a medical appointment. Much resistance. Much not wanting to hide it under drugs. Much false starts claiming the drugs didn't work and stopping taking them. Eventually, maybe out of sheer exhaustion more than anything!, she stayed on the drugs for a few months and the difference was incredible. She looks back and wonders why she resisted it so hard for so long and just suffered! This story isn't to pretend it works for everyone, but to illustrate that it's worth a try.

Samp943

Est28 wrote: »

I think this really just is what these people in these professions do.

To me, it's all snake oil. Just personal opinion though, to some people, the placebo effect seems to make them feel better.

It's really the same thing with them all... you go to them with a problem, promise you the world if you are their client.
But once you "sign up" it's just as you said. If you confront them about the lack of progress or things like the sitting in silence, they'll all have excuses to convince you this is their "method" but basically they have no method at all. What sort of a job could you sit there and do nothing for 25 minutes? None! But it's just allowed with these people, you can't argue with them because they'll have some schpiel about how it's all "part of the process" which is BS really, all this "letting it sink in", "letting you think it over". I mean, if you didn't answer for a minute fine, she should realize somethings going on in your head and change her question or approach or whatever to make progress....

... however, it's easier for her to take your money for doing zip, blame you for lack of progress then be happy to take your money next time for the same.

I think you're being a bit disingenuous. I've been speaking with my psychologist on and off since I was about 16/17 (I'm going on 27). I have stopped on occasion and picked it back up when I felt I needed help to sort out my head. The only times that I haven't been helped in therapy, it was MY fault, not my psychologist's. I was the one refusing to speak, not taking her suggestions for how to help myself and pretty much setting fires around me which dominated the conversations meaning we could never actually discuss and try to sort my original underlying problems. Since I've actually copped on in the last few years, I find her to be incredibly helpful in terms of dealing with my problems.

OP - I know when there are silences with my psychologist, she doesn't try to fill them. There are a few reasons for this and it's possible that your psychoanalyst may be doing the same thing. 1.) I use silence as an evasion tactic. If I don't want to answer the question I tend to shrug and say "I dunno" and then be silent. My psychologist knows to just wait because I will eventually become uncomfortable with the silence and will begin to honestly answer the question so she can help me. 2.) Sometimes I really need to talk to her about something but it's very uncomfortable and difficult so I start to say something and stop. My psychologist waits as long as I need until I can actually start talking about things. She waits in silence instead of coaxing it out of me because she knows if she tries to push I'll clam up further and the session is pretty much done. I don't know why, but I can't deal with people pushing me to talk about things. Is it possible that your counsellor may be reading the same things in you which is causing her to stay silent during those times?

LegacyUser

Which sounds more appealing to you?

The latter option. Delving into my past will only bring out things about my family and it might feel as if they are to blame for my situation due to how they brought me up. This has been commented on before. Time goes forwards, not backwards. I'd rather not have to bring it up unless I really have to.

On the mutism thing - what happens for you internally when you can't speak? You said you feel a lot of emotions because you can't speak, which is one thing, but what are the feelings that stop you speaking in the first place? Is it fear? Shame? Embarrassment? Guilt?

I stampede through my mind wondering what I should say. Do I say this, that, the other. What is she asking me to say. Why won't she help me out here. I'm struggling and she is watching me. It is embarrassing. I don't know what to say - I just don't know what to say. There is an element of fear but it is mostly embarrassment and bewilderment as to what we should be talking about.
On one of the frist nights there was silence. She asked what was on my mind - one of the first times she asked this. I sat in silence for a while and then I heard birds chirping outside. I mentioned that I could hear birds outside. I can't remember what she said in return, but to me it felt like she was internally ":rolleyes:". Only just remembering this now. It made me feel awkward.

For reference, here's a link to the HSE's DBT

Thanks, but I'm in NI.

When you're sitting there in silence, why don't you bring a notebook and paper and write down what's in your head rather than speak it?

I might try it, but probably next time I'll have to confront her again about this debacle during the silences.

Why don't you show her this thread?

I might do this.

Why don't you consider meds as a short term assistance that will enable you to reach a breakthrough point with therapy? Seems madness not to consider it when you've been trying to use therapy unsuccessfully for 10 years.

I was previously on Fluoxetine and didn't feel much better on it.

Is it possible that your counsellor may be reading the same things in you which is causing her to stay silent during those times?

It is possible. She did mention the silences at last session. She said she didn't know whether to intervene or let me just sit and figure it out in my own head.


Funny thing is, ever since I got the replies from second post last night, I've felt a lot better. I went to the gym. The weight which I couldn't look at, I was now able to lift. I felt stronger and one of my lifts surprised me at how much progress I made. So I left there feeling much better as I was slightly cautious when I went there.

MrWalsh

Just on the gym, I often have to force myself to go, but I've never yet felt worse for going! If I get there any my motivation is really awful I do something easy. Just doing something is better than nothing.

beks101

OP I think what's happening in your therapy sessions is a microcosm of what is happening in your life.

All of the issues you seem to be dealing with are there - the perpetual state of victimhood, the passive aggressiveness (sitting in stubborn silence and then sulking when your therapist doesn't cajole you into talking), the sense of isolation and loneliness (you are alone in this and no-one, not even your counsellor, can help you), the social anxiety.

Ten years is a long, long time to sit through weekly therapy sessions with no real improvement or change in your life. Everybody needs to talk about things, and I've always abided by the notion that we could all benefit from a bit of therapy, but I think in your case it has led to this paralysis by analysis situation where you've learned to talk and talk - and exemplified by the multiple PI threads and long, winding posts - write and write about your issues, to the detriment of actually taking any real ACTION to change things.

It's not up to a counsellor, or ten counsellors, to fix your problems. I understand a symptom of depression is the sense of powerlessness and indecision that you exude, but if you're not willing to take responsibility for leading the cause of recovery in your own life, I don't see how you can expect things to change for you. If that means medication to ratchet up your moods temporarily so you can be more proactive - then so be it. If that means quitting the counselling and investing that time and money to develop some social activities and meet some new people - so be it. Be analytical here and cast the emotions aside. Your current situation is not working for you. The previous didn't work either. Or the previous to that, or it seems the previous to that. Why? What aren't you getting? What aren't you doing? Which personal needs are you neglecting?

To quote a wise man - the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

I expect you could line up five more counsellors, but you'd just sit and stew in front of each one of those for not fixing your problems for you. You need to change your approach. You need to take responsibility for your own life.

I went to psychotherapy for a short period in my early 20s. It was great and allowed me a freedom to talk about some very personal issues and figure things out without the (unintended of course) judgement and pressure you'd feel from family and friends.

But I left after a few months because I was "all talked out". When I think about things now, I was still very much a kid, but I knew that talking talking talking around in circles and digging into casual everyday events and feelings in my life was leading to over-analysis, rumination and a degree of stress in my life where everything that was said or done had to "mean" something, or "hint" at something deeper in my childhood...and it all got a bit headfcuky so I called it a day.

Therapy is great, but it's functioning as a crutch for you. It's allowing you to indulge yourself and preventing you from investing in the normal emotional friendships and relationships that most other people have.

Blue Iris

It appears as if your brain has got wired to think mainly negatively and having tried to get experts to help you, you are growing in despair as nothing is helping. Maybe Beks is right and you are all talked out.

I'd recommend a book to you called Rewiring your Brain. It's by John B Arden. It's really excellent and covers the neuroscience aspect as well as offering practical techniques for making real changes in how you think. If you commit yourself to implementing the changes he suggests you will find your life will start to improve. The whole area of brain plasticity is truly fascinating.

LegacyUser

So what do I do? There is something stopping me going out. You might say laziness or using counselling as a crutch, but I struggle to go out. It is totally out of my comfort zone and I rarely if possible go there.

I understand what you are sayign about it being a crutch, but left to my own devices I just bumble along. I've not been in constant counselling over the last ten years. When I'm not in counselling, I just carry on as normal - same routine. It then gets me down that I'm not progressing so I go back to counselling. I'm not sure that drugs will helpe as during many of these times I felt lonely rather than depressed.

As I'm nearly forty now, my chances of having a family are rapidly declining. There is too much distance to cover from where I am currently to a place whereby I could have a family.

There are people on this thread telling me to carry on with this analyst; others telling me to try something else and now I'm being told to go it alone. It is confusing me and although individually each reasoning seems sensible together they are confusing me.

I don't know what way to turn.

no.panic neva.panic

pyschopatient wrote: »

There are people on this thread telling me to carry on with this analyst; others telling me to try something else and now I'm being told to go it alone. It is confusing me and although individually each reasoning seems sensible together they are confusing me.

I don't know what way to turn.

What do you want to do, OP? People are sharing their opinions with you, but it is up to you to look at each of these options, sit with them, see how they feel, and choose the one that makes most sense to you. We are all confused at times about what our next step should be in life. The important thing is to keep moving forward, to keep making and evaluating our decisions. You are the only person who is competent to make the right decision on your behalf here. Trust that on a very basic level you know what is best for you, you just need to find a way to figure it out.

Make a decision to stick with the psychoanalyst, and sit with it for a while - how does it feel? Then make a decision to find a different therapist - how does that feel? Then do what feels right.

LegacyUser

What do you want to do, OP?

I want to leave all this behind me and live my life - it is quite late in the day as it is, without mucking about any longer. However, I seem to be incapable of getting out and getting on in life.

I see what beks is saying. Maybe it is true, but like I said, left to my own devices, I just coast along waiting for life to visit me. I know what I need to do. But I've little or no interests and fear/laziness/routine stops me from helping myself. Hence why I think I might need some coaxing to get out. However, nothing has worked over all the years and it can't be that all my counsellors were poor. The problem is me - I know this. However, I also think that I am not capable of sorting this out myself unfortunately.

Rock and hard place.

beks101

pyschopatient wrote: »

So what do I do? There is something stopping me going out. You might say laziness or using counselling as a crutch, but I struggle to go out. It is totally out of my comfort zone and I rarely if possible go there.

I understand what you are sayign about it being a crutch, but left to my own devices I just bumble along. I've not been in constant counselling over the last ten years. When I'm not in counselling, I just carry on as normal - same routine. It then gets me down that I'm not progressing so I go back to counselling. I'm not sure that drugs will helpe as during many of these times I felt lonely rather than depressed.

As I'm nearly forty now, my chances of having a family are rapidly declining. There is too much distance to cover from where I am currently to a place whereby I could have a family.

There are people on this thread telling me to carry on with this analyst; others telling me to try something else and now I'm being told to go it alone. It is confusing me and although individually each reasoning seems sensible together they are confusing me.

I don't know what way to turn.

Stop waiting for someone else to take control and take responsibility for your next move. It's simply not going to happen. PI is an advice board in the ever-expanding world that is the internet, you'll get a lot of different voices here. Not the Voice of God bestowing you with the One Sacred Answer you're looking for. There is no one "right" answer; everyone lives and copes with life their own way. It's up to you to figure out which way is right for you.

Read the replies and evaluate the advice based on how it makes you feel. The issue is you're so far down this road of disempowering yourself through your own negative thinking, that you can't see yourself as the solutions to your own problems. You think well "left to my own devices I'll just bumble along, someone HAS to step in here and sort me out."

Can't you see how that trail of thinking means that progress or change is literally IMPOSSIBLE? It means that anything you use - therapy, PI advice threads - is by definition just a crutch to get you through life, because you have absolutely no belief in your own capabilities? You actually believe that you can't stand alone, you can't be trusted to fix anything yourself, to affect any change no matter how tiny? Left unchallenged that mentality is going to keep you exactly where you are for the next ten, twenty years.

My experience of depression and of mental health issues is that it's all about comfort zones. Being stuck in a rut where's you're simply existing, not living, in pain and misery, but you're somewhat comfortable there because the alternative is far too fearful to contemplate. That's exactly where you are now - stuck and fed up and hurting and stagnating there, not looking beyond your nose.

Focus on one problem at a time here. So you feel you absolutely cannot go outside the house and develop some sort of a hobby or social life for yourself. Break that thought down. What is it that's holding you back? What scares you about leaving the house and what sort of support do you need in order to change that? Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? A ten step plan to get you out the door? Starting small and setting one small goal a day? In your ten year experience of counselling and therapy, what has worked for you? What has absolutely not worked for you? Take out a pen and paper and write those things down.

Eat well. Make sure you are getting three solid meals including lots of fresh fruit and vegetables. Sleep eight hours a night, on a regular sleep schedule. Drink loads of water and get at least 30 minutes of exercise a day. These things alone will energize you and empower you. Without these basics, everything else flounders.

Est28

Samp943 wrote: »

I think you're being a bit disingenuous

Disingenuous: "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."
I was about to take that as an insult but it sounds like you were actually complimenting me on my knowledge. Cheers.

Samp943 wrote: »

I've been speaking with my psychologist on and off since I was about 16/17 (I'm going on 27). I have stopped on occasion and picked it back up when I felt I needed help to sort out my head. The only times that I haven't been helped in therapy, it was MY fault, not my psychologist's. I was the one refusing to speak, not taking her suggestions for how to help myself and pretty much setting fires around me which dominated the conversations meaning we could never actually discuss and try to sort my original underlying problems. Since I've actually copped on in the last few years, I find her to be incredibly helpful in terms of dealing with my problems.

Well we're all entitled to our opinions so I gave mine. Here's the trouble I see. If my car broke down when I was 16/17. Would my mechanic still be in business if he never fixed the car, just kept you coming back every week for a test drive for 10 years, then tell you it was really MY fault for not driving it properly?
What if my doctor told me to come back week after week for 10 years for the same issue, never resolved? We';d be thinking twice about their qualificiations.

Now, fair enough, mental health is not something you fix in one session. But you sort of prove my point here. This individual has had you coming back to them for 10 years(!?!?!?!?!?!) without a solid fix the whatever you've been suffering. But they have made you feel that's YOUR fault?!?!?! You visit someone every, what, week? Month? for 10 years and they have been unable to help, yet they manipulate the situation to say it was your fault, you didn't "follow their plan", you missed a session (which I'm sure as the MOST important one ever where they would have told you things they couldn't in the rest of those 10 years!?!?). Yet, you see, because they are "professionals" we are conditions to take their "professional" word that this is how it should be. Keep paying them, keep going to them, year after year after year and they don't fix anything, they just make you feel that all the money and effort you spend on them is never enough, you are too broken. Its mad. We are only on earth for so long. I could understand a few weeks or months with one of these people, but it no progress after that.. I'd really be looking elsewhere.

See... it's just snake oil. Similar to a placebo effect. The very nature of which, it's all in the head, a placebo DOES work for some people, because they believe they are getting the help they need.

Samp943 wrote: »

OP - I know when there are silences with my psychologist, she doesn't try to fill them. There are a few reasons for this and it's possible that your psychoanalyst may be doing the same thing. 1.) I use silence as an evasion tactic. If I don't want to answer the question I tend to shrug and say "I dunno" and then be silent. My psychologist knows to just wait because I will eventually become uncomfortable with the silence and will begin to honestly answer the question so she can help me. 2.) Sometimes I really need to talk to her about something but it's very uncomfortable and difficult so I start to say something and stop. My psychologist waits as long as I need until I can actually start talking about things. She waits in silence instead of coaxing it out of me because she knows if she tries to push I'll clam up further and the session is pretty much done. I don't know why, but I can't deal with people pushing me to talk about things. Is it possible that your counsellor may be reading the same things in you which is causing her to stay silent during those times?

Again, my point proven. They have TOLD you this is their method, to sit in silence, burn away your Euro's as they do nothing, and they'll gladly have you back next week to take more money.

Why is a tactic like this acceptable? It's NOT! In ANY other profession, but these people are trained in one thing. How the mind works!!! And they would go out of business if they helped you there and then.

Now, ok, I get the silence thing. Sit there for 30 seconds, a minute, then if YOU don't know where to go with things, you are PAYING this PROFESSIONAL to do or say something to move on with the issue, not sit there. That's insane. What other profession, could I literally SIT IN SILENCE with the client and do NOTHING, while managing to convince them the lack of service was THEIR fault. I just think it's madness, but sadly a lot of people put their trust in many of these professionals. I'm sure there's plenty who care, but I've never managed to encounter one.

See, life's not fair, business is business. The BEST therapist in the world would be the most broke! They would just help people and let them on their way. How much have you paid this person over 10 years (again.... !?!?!?!?! 10!?!?!?!) to not help here? They've made a FORTUNE off you and KNOW how to make you come back. Tell you you need more help and didn't do as they said last time.

It's the equivelent to me of an insurance company. In theory they are there to hellp you right? You have a car accident and they are there to repay the costs for a tiny premium each month. But the reality is, they do not loose, ever. They are not in the business of doling out money. They are big companies who make money in the greater scheme of things. It's about making money at the end of the day.

LegacyUser

beks101 wrote: »

Stop waiting for someone else to take control and take responsibility for your next move.

I've tried over the years - joining various clubs, nightclasses, courses, events, etc but nothing has stuck for me. Outside of the gym, I don't have any real interests. I go to the gym regularly and I enjoy it. I know some people there - but the friendships I've made there seem to want to stay there. These are people who are married with a few kids who talk about getting out for an hour before going back to do x, y & z. There has never been any indication from them of socialising outside of the gym environment. Adding to this, none of them appear to meet up with tohers outside of the gym. There are a few but they attend as friends. At the classes etc I find that unless you go for the purpose of the class then there is no benefit of being there. Not everyone goes there with the same agenda as myself so if you don't meet people and you don't like the class then it will naturally be a struggle.

You think well "left to my own devices I'll just bumble along, someone HAS to step in here and sort me out."

I think it is quite clear the for 20+ years I've just bumbled along with and without intervention. I'm now well aware that only I can help myself, but I don't know how to do it. I've made a mess of my life so far and I take responsiblty for it. I have no interests apart from the gym. I have no friends to call out and visit. I used to enjoy the cinema, but would attend on my own - I have no interest in joining cinema clubs and dissecting the merits and shortcomings of movies. It is escapism for me for 1.5hrs only.

Can't you see how that trail of thinking means that progress or change is literally IMPOSSIBLE? It means that anything you use - therapy, PI advice threads - is by definition just a crutch to get you through life, because you have absolutely no belief in your own capabilities? You actually believe that you can't stand alone, you can't be trusted to fix anything yourself, to affect any change no matter how tiny? Left unchallenged that mentality is going to keep you exactly where you are for the next ten, twenty years.

Left alone I will, like I have done previously, sit in my house with minimal social interaction. I have done this in the past outside of counselling.
To quote your quoting of a wise man - the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
What gives?

Focus on one problem at a time here. So you feel you absolutely cannot go outside the house and develop some sort of a hobby or social life for yourself. Break that thought down. What is it that's holding you back? What scares you about leaving the house and what sort of support do you need in order to change that? Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? A ten step plan to get you out the door? Starting small and setting one small goal a day? In your ten year experience of counselling and therapy, what has worked for you? What has absolutely not worked for you?

I'll think about this in more detail.

Eat well. Make sure you are getting three solid meals including lots of fresh fruit and vegetables. Sleep eight hours a night, on a regular sleep schedule. Drink loads of water and get at least 30 minutes of exercise a day. These things alone will energize you and empower you. Without these basics, everything else flounders.

I do this. There are very few people out there who eat more healthy than me. I sleep well every night and exercise vigoursly every 2nd day.

El_Dangeroso

OP what would success look like to you? Would it be to be a social butterfly with loads of friends and an extremely active social life? Or 1-3 meaningful relationships with people you see maybe once every one to two weeks?

I ask because it's something to ponder because the first step is to imagine where you want to be and then you can work out steps to move in that direction, no matter how small those steps are.

You strike me as a very methodical logical person would that be correct to say? Then perhaps psychoanalysis is too unstructured for you. I'm not too au fait with different methods of counselling but there's probably something more structured that might suit you better.

You come across an intelligent person with a great deal of self-discipline, but you have gotten increasingly stuck into a negative pattern that I assure you is not as concrete as you think it is.

LegacyUser

Focus on one problem at a time here. So you feel you absolutely cannot go outside the house and develop some sort of a hobby or social life for yourself. Break that thought down. What is it that's holding you back? What scares you about leaving the house and what sort of support do you need in order to change that? Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? A ten step plan to get you out the door? Starting small and setting one small goal a day? In your ten year experience of counselling and therapy, what has worked for you? What has absolutely not worked for you?

I have often thought about this. I'm not sure what is holding me back. Sometimes I think I am scared, other times I think I am lazy. However, I know I'm not a lazy person, so I just can't square the circle here. More than likely fear - fear of the unknown, rejection and not fitting in.

I've tried CBT in the past a few times. As the tasks would get more difficult and then it was all fall apart. For example, my last CBT kept asking me to join a group - to try. I couldn't think of anything I was remotely interested in to join. Still can't think of an activity I would like to try. I could manage going to movies on my own and silly things like that, but things at weekend or where interaction was required, then I just could not bring myself to do it.

I've got a cycle of going home at weekends because there is nothing for me to do in the city. But there is nothing for me to do in the city because I go home. Chicken and egg scenario.

what has worked for you?

Good question. I think when I am talked to(at) it tends to go in one ear and out the other. When I am forced to talk and my thoughts challenged then it works better for me. However, in all of this, I really can't think of one which has made an impact outside of the counselling room. So, I really think that the only viable answer here is that none of the approachs have worked.

OP what would success look like to you?

I don't expect to be a social butterfly like Paris Hilton. In reality success would be anywhere further down the line to where I am now. In my mind I think I would be eternally happy with a small group of close friends and maybe some acquaintances to meet with on a regular but not excessive basis - so yes, maybe every 1 - 2 weekends and/or the odd night to movies or something every 2 - 3 weeks during working week. That would be what success would look like to me.

You strike me as a very methodical logical person would that be correct to say?

Yes, that would be my background.

rompecabeza

I read this and wonder if you are still sitting in silence with your analyst. I have been in analysis for three years and have spent a lot of time in silence. I suspect that whatever is keeping you from talking, is keeping you back in your life. Could be many things and not just one thing. Anger. Entitlement. Shame. Lack of experience identifying and expressing emotions. Could be a lot of things. Too much pressure on yourself to talk and 'perform.' A very controlling part of your personality. Eventually, I imagine you would blow up in anger or start crying. I used to jump up and leave. Sometimes I still do. That is really all part of it. Although it is called 'the talking cure,' the not talking is important.

I feel like the therapy has improved my self acceptance and empathy for others, as well as accepting certain losses and realities: I feel more connected with others and understand myself better -- yet, at times, it has sent me reeling and feeling worse for a time. And, look, it is really expensive and time consuming. If you aren't experiencing any curiosity about the process or your own thoughts, feelings, or dreams...even in passing...or getting some sign of encouragement from your analyst, or curiosity on her part...then you might find another approach better...or another analyst. They are all pretty different. I think it is pretty typical for patients to find it a total waste of time. That is something to talk about, I suppose...feeling like it is a total waste of time, but why are you there again? Again, if none of it is interesting to some part of you...then it may not be for you and I don't think it is better than other ways...we are all so different.

Ave Sodalis

Hi OP.

I know exactly how you feel. I can't talk. I have never been able to talk. I bottle and bottle and bottle and I've been through a lot that I had to bottle. For many years, I didn't have a choice in this. I became very good at bottling. So much so that I can detach myself emotionally when I'm talking about the past so I can talk about it without it having any effect on me. I'm also good at distracting and changing topic when it comes to talking about myself and that's exactly what I did when I tried therapy. However, being aware of it doesn't make it easier to overcome. Its been going on so long that I'm now physically incapable of speaking about my past. It's like a protective mechanism my body has come up with so it doesn't have to relive the pain. When I open my mouth, the words won't come out unless I detach myself from them which won't actually do any good.

I got a lot of the same responses as you when asking people (not here). The "oh you're just not trying hard enough" and "that's not the job of therapy" and "you have to do it yourself". To be honest, I think that's complete rubbish. I know fully well that what's inside me is doing me harm. It hasn't manifested itself yet and I tried therapy before it did but it didn't work. I want to help me because I'm afraid of what will happen if I don't but I can't talk. What I need, and what you need by the sounds of it, is someone who will see through the bullsh*t distractions and make me talk. Not only make me talk but make me emotionally connect with what I'm saying. Unfortunately, this doesn't exist. I've searched high and low but this type of therapy is nonexistent, as far as I can tell. However, if I find anything I'll let you know.

In terms of advice, the only thing I can say is just to hold on. Find something worth doing. Get a dog or start working with horses. Both of these animals are naturally very successful with neutralising emotion which is why they're often used in therapy.

Sunflower 27

Hi OP

I am really sorry to hear about the difficulties you are having with therapy.

I am a psychotherapist and work with clients with many of the issues you posted about.

A couple of things struck me from your post. Firstly, I don't think you feeling as if you are falling into depression (although it sounds like you may already be there) and the negative feelings you have towards your therapist is a coincidence.

Have you ever done any reading on the therapeutic alliance or working alliance? It is the relationship between a client and a therapist and it is absolutely vital to positive outcomes in therapy. In fact some believe it to be the most important factor.

Your resentment towards your therapist is clear. You don't respect them and you seem annoyed at paying for a service that you are getting no benefit from - and that is entirely understandable. You are paying this person a lot of money and you are getting nowhere.

Therapists are not going to tell you what to do. They can provide you with the tools necessary to help yourself, but you have to be prepared to do the work - and that means opening up in session. Obviously in your case this is not happening because you don't have much faith in the person sitting opposite you.

As someone else rightly said, a counsellor will often sit with silence. It does not mean the counsellor is being lazy, it is a proven therapeutic technique that allows clients to process what they are saying (sometimes clients will verbalise something for the first time in their lives in a session and that is something they may need to take stock of before proceeding). Likewise, they could suddenly have an 'aha' moment where things become clear to them for the first time. This is something a therapist will allow a client to foster, not quickly gloss over.

The relationship you have your with your therapist is clearly not benefitting you and only you can know if it is possible for this to be rectified.

Can I ask what you believe the role of a therapist is? What exactly are you looking for?

What is clear though is that what you have been doing is not working. If you suffer from social anxiety have you tended to avoid most social gatherings? Have you ever really pushed yourself to go to social events, talk when you feel really uncomfortable?

I ask this because I was an incredibly shy child, teenager and through a good deal of my 20s. I never went to therapy (I didn't have the money then and there was no such thing as low-cost counselling), but I pushed myself time and time again (even though at the time it was terrifying). Eventually, speaking up for myself became the norm and today I would be considered very sociable and outgoing. But I did the work, that was the key.

Finally, losing interest in the things you previously enjoyed is a significant sign of depression. Have you ever been on anti-depressants? Often times clients that are depressed will take ADs and also enter into therapy.

You have hopes and dreams for your future like everyone else and they are within your reach. Believing you are 'not able/can't be fixed' can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I hope this has helped and things do start to improve for you soon.

LegacyUser

rompecabeza wrote: »

I read this and wonder if you are still sitting in silence with your analyst.

Hi, apologies for the delay in replying. I just stumbled across this thread again by accident.
To answer your question, no. I am now talking to her and conversing well. I can't quite remember how it happened, but my recollection of it is that she asked me a few questions and it seemed to go from there. There have been no silences for about 4-5 sessions now - which would have been approxiamtely when I last posted here.

I suspect that whatever is keeping you from talking, is keeping you back in your life. Could be many things and not just one thing. Anger. Entitlement. Shame. Lack of experience identifying and expressing emotions. Could be a lot of things. Too much pressure on yourself to talk and 'perform.' A very controlling part of your personality. Eventually, I imagine you would blow up in anger or start crying. I used to jump up and leave. Sometimes I still do. That is really all part of it. Although it is called 'the talking cure,' the not talking is important.

We haven't really got into this. In the intervening time I got made redundant and have some housing issues. This has been where the majority of our discussions/talk have been centered. Hopefully, now that there is talk we can get things steered back to the original problem.

If you aren't experiencing any curiosity about the process or your own thoughts, feelings, or dreams...even in passing...or getting some sign of encouragement from your analyst, or curiosity on her part...then you might find another approach better...or another analyst. They are all pretty different. I think it is pretty typical for patients to find it a total waste of time. That is something to talk about, I suppose...feeling like it is a total waste of time, but why are you there again? Again, if none of it is interesting to some part of you...then it may not be for you and I don't think it is better than other ways...we are all so different.

It is good to have someone to talk and discuss my redundancy and housing problems with. It seems to have built up some level of trust. I still don't know how it will help me in other areas of my life. There may be some minor changes in my awareness of my thinking and processing/analysis of situations.

Firstly, I don't think you feeling as if you are falling into depression (although it sounds like you may already be there) and the negative feelings you have towards your therapist is a coincidence.

My GP would agree with you. I went to speak to her, but decided against meds as I would need to take them for such a long time it was not appealing to me. She suggested I take up cycling...

Have you ever done any reading on the therapeutic alliance or working alliance? It is the relationship between a client and a therapist and it is absolutely vital to positive outcomes in therapy. In fact some believe it to be the most important factor.

Nope, but I'll take a look into it.

Your resentment towards your therapist is clear. You don't respect them and you seem annoyed at paying for a service that you are getting no benefit from - and that is entirely understandable. You are paying this person a lot of money and you are getting nowhere.

Yes, there was a lot of resentment, but now that we are talking it seems to be slowly ebbing away.

As someone else rightly said, a counsellor will often sit with silence. It does not mean the counsellor is being lazy, it is a proven therapeutic technique that allows clients to process what they are saying (sometimes clients will verbalise something for the first time in their lives in a session and that is something they may need to take stock of before proceeding). Likewise, they could suddenly have an 'aha' moment where things become clear to them for the first time. This is something a therapist will allow a client to foster, not quickly gloss over.

We discussed that and she said something similar. It is time to allow me to think about what was being said and to get some alone time.

Can I ask what you believe the role of a therapist is? What exactly are you looking for?

I'm looking for someone to help me figure out why I am unable to make friends and to socialise. Even though I am popular and chatty with my work colleagues it has not translated into my life outside of the workplace. It is almost too late for me to start the dating game, experiment, find someone I'd like to marry and have a family with; but I would like to make soem progress. Even if it was just getting out 2-3 times per month and maybe the occassional relationship/date. I don't see that as being massively overambitious.

If you suffer from social anxiety have you tended to avoid most social gatherings? Have you ever really pushed yourself to go to social events, talk when you feel really uncomfortable?

Yes, I don't like social gatherings and the fear/stress about them is snowballing with each passing week. No, I don't push myself because it makes me stressed and miserable - I am comfortable in my rut.

Finally, losing interest in the things you previously enjoyed is a significant sign of depression. Have you ever been on anti-depressants? Often times clients that are depressed will take ADs and also enter into therapy.

Yes, many years ago. Like I said previously, I seen my GP recently and she was reluctant to prescribe me any as it is not done without trying other routes first. I didn't like the period of time I would ahve to take them for anyway, so was not bothered by not getting them or the approach of the GP.

You have hopes and dreams for your future like everyone else and they are within your reach. Believing you are 'not able/can't be fixed' can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As long as they are realistic. No point having hopes and dreams if they are not achieveable. It only leads to disappointment.

Sunflower 27

Hi OP

I am not sure why you think you need to be on meds for a 'long time'. Many people use them as a necessary means to get them through a bout of depression, to get them thinking more positively and to then allow them to be more proactive and make positive choices that will improve their quality of life. I have seen many clients use them for this specific reason and then come off them when they are in a more positive frame of mind and more able to tackle the problems life throws up at them.

When people are depressed, they are not thinking rationally, they catastrophize everything which only sees them sink deeper and deeper.

You have been fighting this battle for 10 years. Is it not time to at least consider another way?

Here is a bit of info:

Antidepressants

Action: These are medications – that all, in some way – affect brain turnover of two chemicals serotonin and/or noradrenaline.

Selective Serotonin Re-Uptake Inhibitors:

Trade Name: Cipramil, Lexapro, Lustral, Flaverin, Seroxat, Effexor, Molipaxin, Anafranil
Chemical Name: Fluoxetine, Citalapram, Escitalopram, Sertraline, Fluvoxamine, Paroxetine, Venlafaxine, Trazodone, Clomipramine

Advantages:
•They can reduce social anxiety and in addition treat depressive symptoms that have occurred secondary to the anxiety symptoms.
•They are not dependence producing in the same way as Benzodiazepines
•They can be used for long-term treatment.


Important to note about this class of medications
•They can take up to nine weeks – or more – to exert their anxiety reducing effect. so patience and persistence is often required

Disadvantages:
•There is a distinct risk of the return of symptoms of social anxiety when they are discontinued.
•Treatment with medications alone does not specifically target the causes of the social anxiety symptoms.
• Individuals who have been prescribed a Selective Serotonin Re-Uptake Inhibitors can experience a temporary increase in anxiety in the first week of treatment.
• Some antidepressants – Paroxetine in particular – can produce a withdrawal syndrome if not discontinued gradually under medical supervision.

I emphasised the bit in bold because I want to stress that is why counselling is so important. You need to look at the root cause of why you feel the way you do about social situations and then work on changing the core values you hold around them. We all have core values. Some are positive "I am alive therefore I am capable of achieving anything I want," then there are negative core values "I don't offer much to people. Why would anyone want to spend time with me?"

It sounds from what you write that you have a core value around not being accepted from way back. What was it like for you growing up? Were you lacking in confidence and that made you shy away from making friends?

As you are able to chat in work with people, you don't appear to be lacking in social skills. The problem seems to be rooted in your own psyche that you are 'unable' to make friends and form lasting friendships.

If you don't push yourself to do things that will widen you social circle, how do you expect things to improve? People are not going to just turn up on your doorstep with two cinema tickets.

You sound defeatist, which in itself is another symptom of depression. People meet life partners at all ages of life and under all circumstances. Meeting a special person to share your life with is 100% realistic. I am not sure of your age, but men can father children well into old age.

You cannot change the past and what you wanted for it. You can, however, move towards a more optimistic future. These things are entirely within your grasp. I think being in the grip of depression for so many years, you are unable to see what myself and many others see - that there is a way forward for you.

cannotcope

Est28 wrote: »

Disingenuous: "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."
I was about to take that as an insult but it sounds like you were actually complimenting me on my knowledge. Cheers.



Well we're all entitled to our opinions so I gave mine. Here's the trouble I see. If my car broke down when I was 16/17. Would my mechanic still be in business if he never fixed the car, just kept you coming back every week for a test drive for 10 years, then tell you it was really MY fault for not driving it properly?
What if my doctor told me to come back week after week for 10 years for the same issue, never resolved? We';d be thinking twice about their qualificiations.

Now, fair enough, mental health is not something you fix in one session. But you sort of prove my point here. This individual has had you coming back to them for 10 years(!?!?!?!?!?!) without a solid fix the whatever you've been suffering. But they have made you feel that's YOUR fault?!?!?! You visit someone every, what, week? Month? for 10 years and they have been unable to help, yet they manipulate the situation to say it was your fault, you didn't "follow their plan", you missed a session (which I'm sure as the MOST important one ever where they would have told you things they couldn't in the rest of those 10 years!?!?). Yet, you see, because they are "professionals" we are conditions to take their "professional" word that this is how it should be. Keep paying them, keep going to them, year after year after year and they don't fix anything, they just make you feel that all the money and effort you spend on them is never enough, you are too broken. Its mad. We are only on earth for so long. I could understand a few weeks or months with one of these people, but it no progress after that.. I'd really be looking elsewhere.

See... it's just snake oil. Similar to a placebo effect. The very nature of which, it's all in the head, a placebo DOES work for some people, because they believe they are getting the help they need.




Again, my point proven. They have TOLD you this is their method, to sit in silence, burn away your Euro's as they do nothing, and they'll gladly have you back next week to take more money.

Why is a tactic like this acceptable? It's NOT! In ANY other profession, but these people are trained in one thing. How the mind works!!! And they would go out of business if they helped you there and then.

Now, ok, I get the silence thing. Sit there for 30 seconds, a minute, then if YOU don't know where to go with things, you are PAYING this PROFESSIONAL to do or say something to move on with the issue, not sit there. That's insane. What other profession, could I literally SIT IN SILENCE with the client and do NOTHING, while managing to convince them the lack of service was THEIR fault. I just think it's madness, but sadly a lot of people put their trust in many of these professionals. I'm sure there's plenty who care, but I've never managed to encounter one.

See, life's not fair, business is business. The BEST therapist in the world would be the most broke! They would just help people and let them on their way. How much have you paid this person over 10 years (again.... !?!?!?!?! 10!?!?!?!) to not help here? They've made a FORTUNE off you and KNOW how to make you come back. Tell you you need more help and didn't do as they said last time.

It's the equivelent to me of an insurance company. In theory they are there to hellp you right? You have a car accident and they are there to repay the costs for a tiny premium each month. But the reality is, they do not loose, ever. They are not in the business of doling out money. They are big companies who make money in the greater scheme of things. It's about making money at the end of the day.

est28. I am no defender of therapists and there are some scam artists there . But you do not seem to know much about psychoanalysi. The point is that the analyist is a focus for your thoughts and feelings. They do not speak much because they do not want to pre empt you. That is how psychoanalysis works. If you want guided therapy go to CBT or some 'in the present' therapy.

"you are PAYING this PROFESSIONAL to do or say something to move on with the issue, not sit there. " not in psychoanalysis. And I don't think he is seeing the same person for ten years

@OP you said you had read up on psychoanalysis. did you read about transference. The silence seems to be negative transference. You are not by the theory of psyhoanalysis angry with her but with someone from your past. The function of the therapis is to act as a blank wall. You throw your crap at the blank wall by talking and it begins to make sense to you. I think it is called realisations?

Also you are supposed to talk about the first thing that enters your head and follow with what ever follws not to try to figure out if it makes sense. Stream of concsiousness sort of way without caring how it sounds or if it makes sense

Even the best analysist agree that psychoanalysis is not ging to make anyone super happy. The most it achieves is goping from being neuoritic to ordinary unhappiness. And that can take years.

Google The Impossible Profession by Janet Malcolm.

I see from your latest post you are talking. Glad to hear that

LegacyUser

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Hi OP
I am not sure why you think you need to be on meds for a 'long time'.

When I spoke to my GP about this, she informed me that I'd need to be on the meds for a minimum of approx 1 year (possibly 9 months). This was the first thing she said to me. Hence, why she was trying to steeer me down different routes.

You have been fighting this battle for 10 years. Is it not time to at least consider another way?

I've tried them before in the past, but like I say, the GP was against giving them to me. My analyst was not willing to state an opinion on whether I should opt for them or not. However, she did not disagree with me when I said I was not getting them.

It sounds from what you write that you have a core value around not being accepted from way back. What was it like for you growing up? Were you lacking in confidence and that made you shy away from making friends?

I was isolated when growing up. Grew up in one town went to school in another town. Was the only boy from my school that went to my secondary school. There were others from my town, but from another primary school and were in a different class at secondary school.

If you don't push yourself to do things that will widen you social circle, how do you expect things to improve? People are not going to just turn up on your doorstep with two cinema tickets.

I don't expect things to change. But part of the problem is that I've now rolled over, lay down and quit.

You sound defeatist, which in itself is another symptom of depression. People meet life partners at all ages of life and under all circumstances. Meeting a special person to share your life with is 100% realistic. I am not sure of your age, but men can father children well into old age.

Defeatist and realist can be close to each other. I'm 38yo. I don't want to be an ancient dad too old to understand my child and their life. Old and in poor health / dead when they still need me.
I've not had the freedom of 'young love' - experiencing different people and personalities - physically and emotionally. That takes time and unless I manage to fasttrack this I can't see how it would be possible or wise to be in a position to marry until approx 45yo (few years of experimenting, 1-2 years to find someone, dating and then marriage). I know this is putting timeframes on something that happens organically and it might be my first date or last date or might never happen. However, I think that the point is still valid that I should not rush into something.
I'm also concerned that I'm not emotionally ready for relationships in that I think I could be easily manipulated and emotionally blackmailed into persisting with a relationship when I would prefer to end it. I feel sad when I see ads on datign sites for females who are looking for partners - I don't mean this in a condensending manner, but I'm aware of the biological clock and how it would feel to cross the bridge and not be able to have your own child. I feel that in a scenario similar to this, I could feel forced into continuing.

You cannot change the past and what you wanted for it. You can, however, move towards a more optimistic future. These things are entirely within your grasp. I think being in the grip of depression for so many years, you are unable to see what myself and many others see - that there is a way forward for you.

I'm not sure that there is, but I would just like to get out every now and again. I think I said in a previous post what I feel success woudl be for me.

@OP you said you had read up on psychoanalysis. did you read about transference. The silence seems to be negative transference. You are not by the theory of psyhoanalysis angry with her but with someone from your past. The function of the therapis is to act as a blank wall. You throw your crap at the blank wall by talking and it begins to make sense to you. I think it is called realisations?

I'll take a look into that. I just took a general look into analysis when my counsellor ended my sessions.

Google The Impossible Profession by Janet Malcolm.

I see from your latest post you are talking. Glad to hear that

Will do and thanks:)

John368

Perhaps the OP is just expecting too much from psychoanalysis. Even the person generally thought to have invented psychoanalysis, Sigmund Freud only claimed that psychoanalysis "turned your hysterical misery into common unhappiness".

MrWalsh

Its interesting that you categorise taking meds for 1 year as a "long time" yet you have been suffering for 10+ years.

Dont you think if you could turn the clock back to say 8 years ago, and take a year or so of meds, it would be preferable to being no further along now?

Its shocking (to me) that after suffering for 10+ years that you would still not be willing to try meds - I think you need to reconsider this.

Sunflower 27

After 10 years you say you don't want to try meds, you say you have given up.

You need to want to change if you want a different way of life.

If you do what you've always done, you will get what you've always got.

I really don't know what to suggest. You've been given a lot of advice here, whether you stay in this rut where you are comfortable or not is entirely up to you.

zeffabelli

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

After 10 years you say you don't want to try meds, you say you have given up.

You need to want to change if you want a different way of life.

If you do what you've always done, you will get what you've always got.

I really don't know what to suggest. You've been given a lot of advice here, whether you stay in this rut where you are comfortable or not is entirely up to you.

OP,

There's a game in transactional analysis called gotchya. It's when you offer solutions and the person keeps finding excuses not to try any of them.

It's a sign they dont want to change things, they just want to draw you into the drama, and basically an immature response to transition.

This is what I am seeing on this thread.

Do you want to change things or what?

John368

zeffabelli wrote: »

OP,

There's a game in transactional analysis called gotchya. It's when you offer solutions and the person keeps finding excuses not to try any of them.

It's a sign they dont want to change things, they just want to draw you into the drama, and basically an immature response to transition.

This is what I am seeing on this thread.

Do you want to change things or what?

If they behave like schoolboys and schoolgirls then treat them like schoolboys and schoolgirls? Will treating adults like some 11 year old who is giving excuses for not doing their homework really going to work? Especially adults who are paying clients.

LegacyUser

MrWalsh wrote: »

Its shocking (to me) that after suffering for 10+ years that you would still not be willing to try meds - I think you need to reconsider this.

After 10 years you say you don't want to try meds, you say you have given up.

I've said twice in my most recent two posts that I went to my GP and she refused to prescribe me AD's:

Like I said previously, I seen my GP recently and she was reluctant to prescribe me any as it is not done without trying other routes first.

When I spoke to my GP about this, she informed me that I'd need to be on the meds for a minimum of approx 1 year (possibly 9 months). This was the first thing she said to me. Hence, why she was trying to steeer me down different routes.

Do you want to change things or what?

Yes.

MrWalsh

psychopatient wrote: »

I've said twice in my most recent two posts that I went to my GP and she refused to prescribe me AD's:





Yes.

Is your GP aware you've been 10+ years exploring other routes?

You need a different GP, a second opinion.

I also question whether or not the GP simply relayed the info and you put the spin on it that she was trying to steer you away from meds. I'm not sure why any GP who sees a patient who has been trying therapies for 10+ years would not be happy to try out something else. From a purely financial perspective it'd be worth trying!

John368

psychopatient wrote: »

Hi,

Afterwards, a few sessions later when I challenged her about this (when stating that I resented her) she gave viable reasons for her answers, but it seems that in my mind the damage is done and I am struggling to shake off this resentment/anger for her refusing to answer questions that I obtained from a psychology website detailing how to pick your analyst.

The questions that she answered were about psychoanalysis. The questions that she refused to answer were about picking a service provider. You had had already chosen her to as your service provider.

LegacyUser

MrWalsh wrote: »

Is your GP aware you've been 10+ years exploring other routes?

Yes, I told her my history.

I also question whether or not the GP simply relayed the info and you put the spin on it that she was trying to steer you away from meds.

Nope. I am 100% certain that my story is correct. She refused me AD's and told me to join a cycling club. Meds need to tbe taken for a minimum of 9 - 12 months.

I'm not sure why any GP who sees a patient who has been trying therapies for 10+ years would not be happy to try out something else. From a purely financial perspective it'd be worth trying!

It would appear that they are trying to cut back. Reading between the lines here (my spin on things now) is that the AD's were handed out a bit too readily in the recent past and they are now clamping down by trying to steer patients down other routes. An alternative (and possibly more viable) reason could be that she was a young doctor and was going to rigidly by the rulebook.

LegacyUser

I just had another session with my analyst. In the previous session I was silent for approx 30 minutes out of the 50min session. Tonight, I barely spoke at all.

I just can't fathom why I can't engage with her. I really think it is something to do with not understanding the 'Tell me your thoughts' question she asks me at the start of each session. It pisses me off for some reason. However, there must be more to it than that.

I haven't gotten over the initial anger I had towards her for this question. I didn't understand what she was asking me about and I've built up resentment to her about it. I now deliberately refuse to engage with her in the sessions. Now that i've gotten into this rut of not speaking, I can't see a way out of it.

I've told her I'm thinking of quitting. She wasn't surprised. I don't feel as if any progress has been made, apart from on reducing my bank balance. I feel very down about this - like my life is now over. There are too many doors closing on me now.

I just feel like a tired gazelle who give up and just lies there as the lion rips her apart, no more energy to run or struggle. My live feels over and I've now moved into an existance. Eat, work, sleep whilst waiting to die.

I can't see any way back for me with my analyst. She is highly regarded and undertakes work for some very high profile court cases. It just seems like we have not clicked on a personal level. I'm not sure that I can envisage myself opening up to her about my innermost thoughts and insecurities. I don't want to change analyst. I have had so many that the last thing I want is to start over again.

I've got a lot of other things happening in my life now too. This is really not a good time for me on any level at present - I'm trying to juggle a number of big events in my life - none of which are particularly welcome.

Not sure what I'm posting here looking for. I've failed once again. Maybe this is me and I should accept myself and just accept that I'm a loner. Everything is becoming too much of an effort for me.

Is there any way I repair this damage with my analyst?

krankykitty

The only way to repair it is to engage with her - go in, say exactly what you've said here. Tell her that asking you what your thoughts are annoys you. Tell her you feel the resentment. Be open to working with whatever it brings up.

However, it may be that this therapist does not suit you, or that analysis isn't for you. That is NOT a failure on your part. It's simply one of those things. The work in talking therapy depends on the relationship. It doesn't mean you have to like the therapist - you simply have to be able to be open with them. That can be difficult if you don't click. Don't blame yourself. Many people have that experience.

You mentioned accepting yourself - sometimes when you truly accept yourself you find change happens (i know, sounds counterintuitive but it sometimes does). However I think you may need some support with this and unfortunately this may mean engaging with another therapist. However, no matter what therapist you go to, being open about how you feel, and about your reactions to the therapist, good and bad, are part of it.

I wish you all the best.

Penny Tration

If you're struggling to speak, have you considered writing down what you've posted here and giving it to her?

Tbh, after over three months, I'd suggest finding a new therapist. However, NO therapist will work for you if you refuse to speak. You are the one who should do the speaking here, not them.