Ballyhoura trails?

xxyyzz

rizzodun wrote: »

That's counter productive, it seems people expect Coillte to develop and maintain the trails, they just provide the land. The local club here have access to the woods and build and maintain the trails themselves, with no funding from Coillte, they communicate with Coillte regularly and any new trails they check with them first. Plenty of great trails have been built and maintained for all types of riding. The last local XC race had some people saying that they couldn't believe it wasn't a round of the NPS.

I think that if more clubs dealt with Coillte rather than just trying to build some trails in the hope they aren't destroyed there would be a lot more trails and riding areas all over the island.

If people want places to ride they may well have to be prepared to engage in fundraising and volunteering with trail builds, too many people expect to have everything handed to them it seems.

The problem is that it depends on the good will of the local Coillte manager.My local club couldn't get the time of day from Coillte. They had most of their trails destroyed and were banned from riding on Coillte land and this would be considered a very responsible club. Coillte are primarily a timber company who just happen to manage the land where mtb takes place. They have no joined up thinking or strategy for the promotion of mtb.

xxyyzz

There's huge scope for private mtb enterprises in this country imho. Look at the massive success of bikepark Ireland with a relatively small hill. They've done a fantastic job and they'll host the xc nationals this year also. There are so many farms in this country with wooded hillsides lying idle, it would just take some entrepreneur spirit to get them off the ground.

Tenzor07

xxyyzz wrote: »

The problem is that it depends on the good will of the local Coillte manager.My local club couldn't get the time of day from Coillte. They had most of their trails destroyed and were banned from riding on Coillte land and this would be considered a very responsible club. Coillte are primarily a timber company who just happen to manage the land where mtb takes place. They have no joined up thinking or strategy for the promotion of mtb.

Absolutely spot on there xxxyyyzz!

And just because the lads up in Union Wood in Sligo have a good arrangement with the local Coillte forestry manager it doesn't mean they can go around accusing other clubs/MTB'ers of being lazy/layabouts!

Although I hear that the big cheese at Coillte is due for mothballs soon, so hopefully someone without a vendetta against MTB'ers will takeover at the top of the organization!

Eamonnator

In the last century, I ran races, including Irish XC and DH Championships in a Coillte forest. I had a reasonable relationship with the local forest manager. As long as forest was left litter free and with no artificial jumps, he was happy.
He retired. I approached his successor, who told me, that there would be no further races in that forest. I attempted to go go above his head, by approaching head office. I was told, basically, that as long as the local manager had objections, I was on a loser. As far as I know, since then, no Coillte sanctioned event has taken place in that wood.

rizzodun

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Absolutely spot on there xxxyyyzz!

And just because the lads up in Union Wood in Sligo have a good arrangement with the local Coillte forestry manager it doesn't mean they can go around accusing other clubs/MTB'ers of being lazy/layabouts!

Although I hear that the big cheese at Coillte is due for mothballs soon, so hopefully someone without a vendetta against MTB'ers will takeover at the top of the organization!

I wasn't accusing of other clubs/MTB'ers being lazy/layabouts, and I am most certainly not speaking on behalf of any club, only pointing out that they do have a good relationship here with Coillte.

You yourself posted that you wished Coillte would fund maintenance of the trails of Ticknock or Ballinastoe, but why don't the locals maintain it?

I'm sure there are probably Coillte managers that may be still behind the times, but I don't see that as a reason to moan and complain about the areas that have made progress.

These managers may well not want to deal with local people, but maybe if enough people got behind it and included some local politicians they might get more traction?

rizzodun

Eamonnator wrote: »

In the last century, I ran races, including Irish XC and DH Championships in a Coillte forest. I had a reasonable relationship with the local forest manager. As long as forest was left litter free and with no artificial jumps, he was happy.
He retired. I approached his successor, who told me, that there would be no further races in that forest. I attempted to go go above his head, by approaching head office. I was told, basically, that as long as the local manager had objections, I was on a loser. As far as I know, since then, no Coillte sanctioned event has taken place in that wood.

Just on this Eamon, did you approach yourself or as part of a club? Do you think that if you had formed some sort of group and maybe included local government you might have gotten further with this? When was the last time you approached him? Do you think you may get a better response now?

Eamonnator

rizzodun wrote: »

Just on this Eamon, did you approach yourself or as part of a club? Do you think that if you had formed some sort of group and maybe included local government you might have gotten further with this? When was the last time you approached him? Do you think you may get a better response now?

I even tried to get Cycling Ireland involved, nothing worked.
I'm afraid my interest has waned. I cannot imagine the situation, where I would bother again.

JBokeh

rizzodun wrote: »

You yourself posted that you wished Coillte would fund maintenance of the trails of Ticknock or Ballinastoe, but why don't the locals maintain it?

I had a few nice trails made in one of the local forestry's to me years ago, I'd say they started by deer and we started riding it on scramblers, a few weeks later went in with a quad, MTB and shovels built up a few medium berms, a couple of dips and a jump over the space of a couple of evenings, I think the loop was 7 Km of downhill, 4 of which was single track and 13 of a forest road climb back to the top.

We got about 6 months use out of it, and brought another one of the lads out to it, he is the type that slows down by locking the back wheel and just dragging it down the trail, the damage that one guy did in 2 runs of it, was worse than the wear 6 of us had put on it in 6 months. A few trees came down on it that bad winter 2 years ago, and we didn't really want to bring in chainsaws in case that was frowned upon.

If Coiltie were to pay people to maintain a heavily trafficked area of MTB trail it would be a full time job for them, thats why the ballyhoura trails are pretty much gravel that has been flattened down with a whacker plate, fairly low maintenance for them, but a bit boring for someone that has a bit of a taste for natural trails made of mud and roots.

Theres some built around cork city too, I think they were made by a club down there with permission from the land owners, provided they keep within a set of rules that were agreed on. I think they have a day or two where the members go out and repair to trail

danceswithwolf

Coiltie badly need to put a bit of effort into the Ballinastoe trails. They've really worn down over the last couple of years.

C3PO

rizzodun wrote: »

Why don't the local clubs approach Coillte about fund raising for maintenance?

Because the local clubs have no interest in riding the Coillte trails other than as a route from one area of proper mountain biking to another!

Biopace

Eamonnator wrote: »

In the last century, I ran races, including Irish XC and DH Championships in a Coillte forest. I had a reasonable relationship with the local forest manager. As long as forest was left litter free and with no artificial jumps, he was happy.
He retired. I approached his successor, who told me, that there would be no further races in that forest. I attempted to go go above his head, by approaching head office. I was told, basically, that as long as the local manager had objections, I was on a loser. As far as I know, since then, no Coillte sanctioned event has taken place in that wood.

Hmmm, sounds almost identical to what is currently happening in Clare/Limerick right now.

booooonzo

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I hope you(Coillte?) have learned a lot from Ballinastoe.

Linking B'stoe to Djouce should be quite interesting, first i've heard of it.

Anyways, as i've said I hope they get the funding for Coolaney, will be great for tourism in the region

Nope, i'm definitely not Coillte but have been dealing with them a lot in recent times and like others it's never too easy.

However you have to remember they are a timbre logging company only at the moment. also they are 'allowing' a lot of land to be used (1500ha in our case) for biking.

maintenance wise, trails should either pay for themselves (showers/bikewash/car park) or use community schemes or have an active bike club willing to keep them in good nick.

However this is based on the trails being good enough in the first place to warrant interest in maintenance i guess

xxyyzz

booooonzo wrote: »

However you have to remember they are a timbre logging company only at the moment.

I think this is the biggest part of the problem, there doesn't seem to be a realisation at the top level in this country about the potential of adventure tourism which is massive imho. New golf courses seems to be about as far as their imagination extends. If we are good enough to host a round of the enduro world series then we should be promoting the sh*t out of mtb in Ireland. Wales and Scotland are absolutely light years ahead of us. Coillte aren't equipped to do this, I get the impression that mtb is more of a hassle for them than anything else.

Having said all that, I'm not a big trail centre fan myself anyway. Ballyhoura does nothing for me, its very sterile and dumbed down. There are miles and miles of quiet natural trails near me with plenty of tech sections and I'd head to bikepark Ireland for sh*ts and giggles the odd weekend.

ford2600

booooonzo wrote: »

However you have to remember they are a timbre logging company only at the moment. also they are 'allowing' a lot of land to be used (1500ha in our case) for biking.

They are the largest land owner in state; other than mtb they have a massive responsibility for preserving habitat for out wildlife, amentities for the general public etc

Through weak willed politicians they have been left get away with not managing their huge land bank to the benefit of the state in general.

A private company when it comes to selling of road frontage for sites at height of boom(or entire land bank to Chinese if they got away with it) and a state company when it comes to cosy protected jobs.

That so semi state manager can, at a whim, inhibit the responsible development of outdoor activities is a national disgrace.

Where I use mtb, usually solo or with one or two others I have to compete for space with deer hunters(in season) who aren't too happy to see me. Typically they pay 10,000 per annum for the right to hunt; guess who'll get squeezed out when bikers and hunters comes into conflict.

Tenzor07

ford2600 wrote: »

They are the largest land owner in state; other than mtb they have a massive responsibility for preserving habitat for out wildlife,

Based on what I've seen and heard, I don't think Coillte have any responsibility for preserving habitat for wildlife.
They practice clear cutting, and leave forests looking like the aftermath of World War 3! There's a lot of logging in the Ticknock area right now so they've been busy widening the fireroads and adding a lot of hardcore for the heavy trucks and machinery..

I'm pretty sure it's the National parks and Wildlife service(Npws) who look after anything outside of commercial forestry.

ford2600

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Based on what I've seen and heard, I don't think Coillte have any responsibility for preserving habitat for wildlife.
They practice clear cutting, and leave forests looking like the aftermath of World War 3! There's a lot of logging in the Ticknock area right now so they've been busy widening the fireroads and adding a lot of hardcore for the heavy trucks and machinery..

I'm pretty sure it's the National parks and Wildlife service(Npws) who look after anything outside of commercial forestry.

Most of the country's farmers are signed up to environmental proetection schemes, but the company managing state lands get a free pass? Of course they have a massive responsibility; the disgrace is the politics that allows they to walk away from it.

NPWS look after national parks

CramCycle

Who Coillte claim to be:

About Coillte
Coillte's core purpose is to enrich lives locally, nationally and globally through the innovative and sustainable management of natural resources
Coillte is a commercial company operating in forestry, land based businesses, renewable energy and panel products.
The company employs approx 1,000 people and was established in 1988. It owns over 445,000 hectares of land, about 7% of the land cover of Ireland.
Coillte manages its forests to deliver social, economic and environmental benefits.
One of the key areas where Coillte has a positive, measurable impact is in the provision of public goods. Public goods are “non market services” that cannot be traded but are enjoyed by many. These include contributing to national biodiversity, providing extensive recreation opportunities, protecting cultural heritage and improved water quality.
The value of these Public Goods can be measured:
Coillte and the Heritage Council commissioned research which found that Nature and Biodiversity, Landscape and Cultural Heritage together have a value of over €500m per annum in benefit to the Irish people.
Separate research commissioned by Coillte and the Irish Sports Council estimated that forest recreation makes a public goods contribution of €97m per annum.
It was also estimated that the economic activity generated by these visits is in the order of €270m annually – a significant contribution to rural economic development.

Plastik

To bring this back to a discussion in terms of the general merits of Ballyhoura as a MTB venue, as someone that has only a passing interest in MTB outside of the road season I think that Ballyhoura is a fabulous resource and have traveled to it from Wicklow on day trips a few times - and will continue to do so. Plus there are enough combinations of short and long loops for people that are only trying it out and for younger kids.

I was there again on Saturday with my 11yo and we have built up to 30km through a combination of the Brown, Green and technical loops. Next trip down we'll head for the 35km White Loop. He's delighted with this. Where else would be be able to ride trails of that sort of length without having to resort to mind numbing loops of the same.

From a layman, casual user perspective, I can't speak highly enough of the place.

xxyyzz

Plastik wrote: »

To bring this back to a discussion in terms of the general merits of Ballyhoura as a MTB venue, as someone that has only a passing interest in MTB outside of the road season I think that Ballyhoura is a fabulous resource and have traveled to it from Wicklow on day trips a few times - and will continue to do so. Plus there are enough combinations of short and long loops for people that are only trying it out and for younger kids.

I was there again on Saturday with my 11yo and we have built up to 30km through a combination of the Brown, Green and technical loops. Next trip down we'll head for the 35km White Loop. He's delighted with this. Where else would be be able to ride trails of that sort of length without having to resort to mind numbing loops of the same.

From a layman, casual user perspective, I can't speak highly enough of the place.

It's grand but TBH it is pretty dumbed down to cater for beginners. There's kms and kms of singletrack with no variation. Ideally there should be sections with options e.g. a descent with a green line for beginners up to a black line for experienced MTBers. More imagination is needed.

booooonzo

I totally agree with the adventure tourism being missed currently
(i lived in Queenstown New Zealand and seen it first hand how huge it can be and how to do it right)

However, even though we are behind Scotland, Wales and NI in MTB terms they also had the same issues with the forestry in their beginnings.

It won't change overnight, unfortunately.

Coillte will say they fulfil their mission statement by providing access to walkers, families, hunters etc.. and very slowly bikers

They are stuck in their ways and need very high level (Governmental) direction and policy change if they are to change.

from what i have gathered the main fear is insurance and claims, it's this old irish, ingrained farmer attitude of 'keep off my land' purely due to fear and ignorance for the most part.

It's changing but means educating people on the benefits of what we do.

you'd be surprised the amount of people who presume you're talking about MX bikes until you spell it out for them

Tenzor07

booooonzo wrote: »

However, even though we are behind Scotland, Wales and NI in MTB terms they also had the same issues with the forestry in their beginnings.It won't change overnight, unfortunately.

While I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying...

I'll add the fact that mountain biking on Coillte lands has been going on for over 25 years in Ireland...And we are not much further in terms of progressing with the development of MTB'ing in that time...

booooonzo

With regards trail center Vs natural, you will always have that debate/preference.

Unfortunately(or not) due to our weather we need hard packed trails to be sustainable and viable (as previously mention, maintenance needs to be considered)

However, this shouldn't need to take away from flow and fun!
I personally don't think an irish trail center has achieved this perfectly yet but we hope to change that with a big focus on flow and fun and allowing the rider to dictate their own speed and beeing able to use the trail in exciting ways.

if you were at the EWS you would see how a good rider can make what appears like a boring bit of trail exciting.

Macy0161

danceswithwolf wrote: »

Coiltie badly need to put a bit of effort into the Ballinastoe trails. They've really worn down over the last couple of years.

I live local to Ballinastoe, and there is talk from the local politicians about further developing the trails, citing what's happening in the North, Scotland and Wales. Talk is cheap, but at least they're beginning to cop it for the potential it may have. In fairness to them, one of the other things there were pushing over the winter (a greenway around Vartry Reservoir) is progressing between the community council/ PURE/ tidy towns (not sure of the impact of the politicians).

I'm not doing it long enough to know how, or whether, Ballinastoe has declined - it seems ok to me as a beginner anyway, and over the winter/ spring any tree's that fell and blocked trails were cleared fairly quick!

Just to point out as it's been mentioned a few times, mountain biking (along with horse riding) is banned from Djouce woods. Actually, i think that stands for anything other than the specified recreation sites!

booooonzo

Tenzor07 wrote: »

While I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying...

I'll add the fact that mountain biking on Coillte lands has been going on for over 25 years in Ireland...And we are not much further in terms of progressing with the development of MTB'ing in that time...

sadly you're right but it has remained (been forced) underground for most of that time.

It's been like that because mountain bikers want to bike and not organise.
but we need to organise as a collective to show we're not just messers who love giving out.

Cycling Ireland have been useless for us.

Tenzor07

booooonzo wrote: »

sadly you're right but it has remained (been forced) underground for most of that time.
It's been like that because mountain bikers want to bike and not organise.
but we need to organise as a collective to show we're not just messers who love giving out.Cycling Ireland have been useless for us.

Would not say that at all, if you know the history of MTB'ing and access rights to the outdoors.

Anyways, it's a whole can of worms and best left to another forum..

booooonzo

we'll yes, it's a bit of a sweeping statement and I know a lot of work was put into negotiating that was thrown in peoples faces etc.. but i meant it targeted at bikers as a whole...

but yes ..off topic

Macy0161

Macy0161 wrote: »

I live local to Ballinastoe, and there is talk from the local politicians about further developing the trails, citing what's happening in the North, Scotland and Wales. Talk is cheap, but at least they're beginning to cop it for the potential it may have. In fairness to them, one of the other things there were pushing over the winter (a greenway around Vartry Reservoir) is progressing between the community council/ PURE/ tidy towns (not sure of the impact of the politicians).

Saved the free sheet from the recycling bin, if anyone's interested...

tipparetops

Coillte just want to cut down the trees and that is it.
Walkers,push bikes, quads, motorbikes, poachers, illegal dumping, they do not care.

The best thing cyclists can do is build your own tracks/paths, say nowt to Coillte, Coillte would prefer it that way.

rizzodun

tipparetops wrote: »

Coillte just want to cut down the trees and that is it.
Walkers,push bikes, quads, motorbikes, poachers, illegal dumping, they do not care.

The best thing cyclists can do is build your own tracks/paths, say nowt to Coillte, Coillte would prefer it that way.

Until someone injures themselves on those trails, takes Coillte to court, and they rip up all the work done, which brings us back to post #1 of this thread.

Tony Beetroot

Are these the same trails that munster 4x4 use?