right of way across neighbours field

noddyk

Hi
For the past 80 or more years, I , and my father before me have been crossing a neighbours field (walking only) to get to our field. There is another way for tractors but it is much longer.

However now the neighbour is old and is going planting the field we walk across, and has already errected a big fence all around the field.
What right of way entitlements do I have ? There is nothing on paper about this right of way.

The owner of the field is not talking to me , or in fact any of his neighbours ! That type of guy!!

What shud I do?

Username John

noddyk wrote: »

Hi
For the past 80 or more years, I , and my father before me have been crossing a neighbours field (walking only) to get to our field. There is another way for tractors but it is much longer.

However now the neighbour is old and is going planting the field we walk across, and has already errected a big fence all around the field.
What right of way entitlements do I have ? There is nothing on paper about this right of way.

The owner of the field is not talking to me , or in fact any of his neighbours ! That type of guy!!

What shud I do?

Is the way for tractors a proper lane / access?
Can you not just use this?

Cattlepen

I would take op's advice and get over it. There was an auld farmer in meath who's neighbours weren't that nice to him and he left his land to an ethnic minority that tow their houses behind their vans. He certainly had the last laugh

noddyk

Username John wrote: »

Is the way for tractors a proper lane / access?
Can you not just use this?

It's an old bog road . . . And much much longer than the right of way route. As in about a mile longer

noddyk

Cattlepen wrote: »

I would take op's advice and get over it. There was an auld farmer in meath who's neighbours weren't that nice to him and he left his land to an ethnic minority that tow their houses behind their vans. He certainly had the last laugh

Don't see the relevance there, sorry!!

What's that got to do with my question?

The neighbours and i have been nothing but nice to this man all his life . . .but people "change" wit old age!!

Username John

noddyk wrote: »

It's an old bog road . . . And much much longer than the right of way route. As in about a mile longer

I know - but if you have a right of way there, could you not use that?

I know it's maybe not what you want to hear - but what use is a 'walking only' right of now?
Also - what would you expect the man who owns the land to do - I don't know if he has to fence all round any plantation - which might mean more fencing for him, to accommodate you?

If you want to pursue it - I am sure a solicitor would take some money off you to help you
There was something about registering rights of way there last year, but the deadline for this was extending for another few years, the easiest way to get the right of way registered was to get everyone to agree. In your case thisay not happen, so it would be a court job. Again - I'd have to wonder would it be worth it just for walking access only?

This mentions the new date
http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/agribusiness/rights-of-way-claim-can-be-made-up-to-2021-215370.html

_Brian

noddyk wrote: »

It's an old bog road . . . And much much longer than the right of way route. As in about a mile longer

wow, a mile, on a tractor, to one field, and through a bog..:rolleyes:

Ye have been lucky this neighbor has been helpful up to this point. Its his land and he has a new use which doesn't include you trooping across it when you feel the need..
He's not talking to ye, well if this sense of entitlement spans any further than this thread I'm not too surprised..

Be best call in and wish him luck with the forestry, thank him for the path ye had used, and be a neighbor - ask him is there anything YOU can do in return.

Genghis Cant

It sounds more like a shortcut than a right of way to me. I can't see you having any claim over it.

noddyk

_Brian wrote: »

wow, a mile, on a tractor, to one field, and through a bog..:rolleyes:

Ye have been lucky this neighbor has been helpful up to this point. Its his land and he has a new use which doesn't include you trooping across it when you feel the need..
He's not talking to ye, well if this sense of entitlement spans any further than this thread I'm not too surprised..

Be best call in and wish him luck with the forestry, thank him for the path ye had used, and be a neighbor - ask him is there anything YOU can do in return.

Ha . . .u think u know it all Brian. U obviously haven't a clue. Please don't post on any more of your useless comments on my thread.

Kovu

I'm afraid you also don't get to dictate on thread. Please don't backseat mod.

noddyk

Kovu wrote: »

I'm afraid you also don't get to dictate on thread. Please don't backseat mod.

Wev bent over backwards for this man in the past . . .and no thanks. Brian is making assumptions , and advising on how to be a good neighbour, which has nothing to do with my query

Base price

noddyk wrote: »

Don't see the relevance there, sorry!!

The neighbours and i have been nothing but nice to this man all his life . . .but people "change" wit old age!!

To be fair people can change their opinions, work,religion, way of life, farming practices etc and it has nothing to do with old age.
I am sure that you and your neighbours have been good to this man over the years, that is what we call in these parts - been neighbourly.
I am also sure that when you walked across his fields and saw a cow calving, ewe yeaning or a sick animal that you would let him know and even helped him, that is what we call in these parts - been neighbourly.
It is his prerogative to do what he wants with his land, simple

_Brian

noddyk wrote: »

Wev bent over backwards for this man in the past . . .and no thanks. Brian is making assumptions , and advising on how to be a good neighbour, which has nothing to do with my query

Actually it has, your query is about going to be a bad neighbour , one who won't let a man have his land private but instead wants to bully access across the land of an elderly neighbour.

Miname

noddyk wrote: »

Wev bent over backwards for this man in the past . . .and no thanks. Brian is making assumptions , and advising on how to be a good neighbour, which has nothing to do with my query

I think Brian is pointing out you've your own access and don't need to use his land but he's been pretty accommodating letting you cross it, so it saves you a mile. I don't think you've a case.

Kovu

noddyk wrote: »

Wev bent over backwards for this man in the past . . .and no thanks. Brian is making assumptions , and advising on how to be a good neighbour, which has nothing to do with my query

You also have no right of way on paper, correct? Ergo, none appear to exist except for your word against your neighbours.
You've got a right of way which may be out of the way but actually exists and as Genghis said above, what you use now sounds more like a shortcut which your neighbour has let ye use. It's his land and it's up to him how he wants to work it.
Just because you've helped him in the past doesn't mean you can dictate what he does with it now....

noddyk

Base price wrote: »

To be fair people can change their opinions, work,religion, way of life, farming practices etc and it has nothing to do with old age.
I am sure that you and your neighbours have been good to this man over the years, that is what we call in these parts - been neighbourly.
I am also sure that when you walked across his fields and saw a cow calving, ewe yeaning or a sick animal that you would let him know and even helped him, that is what we call in these parts - been neighbourly.
It is his prerogative to do what he wants with his land, simple

My thread is a question as to my entitlements under the"right of way" act. Not a question on how to be a good neighbour.

ABlur

If the forestry exceeds 2.5 hectares then it must be notified in local papers. As far as I know there is an opportunity at that point to make a submission/objection. Regarding the right of way it would be worth consulting a solicitor as you and your family appear to have used it unhindered up to now.

noddyk

Kovu wrote: »

You also have no right of way on paper, correct? Ergo, none appear to exist except for your word against your neighbours.
You've got a right of way which may be out of the way but actually exists and as Genghis said above, what you use now sounds more like a shortcut which your neighbour has let ye use. It's his land and it's up to him how he wants to work it.
Just because you've helped him in the past doesn't mean you can dictate what he does with it now....

Again, my query is " what are my entitlements" if any. Why are you assuming I'm dictating? Is that something you do yourself?

noddyk

ABlur wrote: »

If the forestry exceeds 2.5 hectares then it must be notified in local papers. As far as I know there is an opportunity at that point to make a submission/objection. Regarding the right of way it would be worth consulting a solicitor as you and your family appear to have used it unhindered up to now.

Thank you very much Ablur, for the first informative answer relating to my query

noddyk

_Brian wrote: »

Actually it has, your query is about going to be a bad neighbour , one who won't let a man have his land private but instead wants to bully access across the land of an elderly neighbour.

What are you talking about?/??? My query asks what are my entitlements. How is this bullying??

Kovu

noddyk wrote: »

Again, my query is " what are my entitlements" if any. Why are you assuming I'm dictating? Is that something you do yourself?

You are complaining because the farmer has started work on planting his field which means you can't use it as passage any more. So you are looking for some entitlement in order to hinder his plans? In other words, you want to try and change what he has already decided upon.

And no, I do not dictate, thank you for asking.

This may help you. From here.

The person claiming the Right of Way is referred to as a Dominant Owner. If the claim of the Dominant Owner is contested then the Property Registration Authority will not proceed with the application of the Dominant Owner. In such a scenario the Dominant Owner will have to apply for an order of the court for recognition of his Right of Way and to have this registered subsequently in the Property Registration Authority. As well as that the Property Registration Authority will not proceed with the Application of a Dominant Owner even if uncontested where the Property Registration Authority is of the view that the Dominant Owners claim is unsubstantiated.

Miname

noddyk wrote: »

What are you talking about?/??? My query asks what are my entitlements. How is this bullying??

You don't have entitlements no more than I don't have entitlements over your land. You have your own access all be it a bit longer and this other man is planting his ground which as far as I am aware requires it to be fully fenced.

noddyk

Miname wrote: »

You don't have entitlements no more than I don't have entitlements over your land. You have your own access all be it a bit longer and this other man is planting his ground which as far as I am aware requires it to be fully fenced.

Thanks. Why didn't u just say that the first time ?

Deepsouthwest

noddyk wrote: »

Thank you very much Ablur, for the first informative answer relating to my query

I think ur thanking him for the first glimmer of hope that u've got so far. I honestly think ur neighbour has a stronger case against u for trespassing than u have for a right of way! Forget about it Id say.

Base price

ABlur wrote: »

If the forestry exceeds 2.5 hectares then it must be notified in local papers. As far as I know there is an opportunity at that point to make a submission/objection. Regarding the right of way it would be worth consulting a solicitor as you and your family appear to have used it unhindered up to now.

Difficult to establish proof
We had a somewhat similar situation some years ago (before my Uncle died) but in our case an individual tried to claim a right of way through our bank of bog to an exit route that was closer to the road than his right of way to the same road. His mapped right of way was a lot further to the same road via a different route through the bog.
Since before my time there was never a problem with this individuals grandfather or father using our right of way. The same family helped my family to hand cut/save turf as likewise my Grandfather and Uncle did.
The crunch came when this individual drove his large 4wd tractor through our right of way during very wet weather rendering it useless to us. He got his turf out of the bog by the trailer load however my Uncle who only had a MF168 had to box it out in a transport box to the road to load the trailers.
My Uncle had words with him and told him not to come that way in future. A few months later my Uncle received a solicitors letter from the individual claiming a right of way.
My Uncle consulted his solicitor with maps of the bog showing our and another family member's inclusive right of way on our route. The same map also showed 3 other rights of way, one of which this individual was entitled to use.
My Uncle's solicitor sent a letter to the other solicitor and at the time I think it cost us IR£50. Case closed

ihavenoname3

If the "right of way" was the only way you could access your land, you would have a strong case, but it is not so you don't in my opinion. Also your Neighbour is an old man so you say, do you really want to be causing him stress and be fighting with him at this stage of his life over such a matter?

saor19

It's possible to acquire a right of way through long use of such a route, as well as some other criteria. It's known as prescription. The Acts you are looking for are the Prescription Act 1832 and the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009. This area of the law is quite complicated (as one poster mentioned above about various time limits and a court order) so you might be best going to see a solicitor.

Addle

As above.
http://www.prai.ie/registration-of-easements-and-profits-a-prendre-acquired-by-prescription-under-section-49a/
Legal advice required.

Base price

I am not versed with the law but I thought that the claimant has to establish by agreement and consent from the landowner of continues use (12 years) of the proposed right of way under the Land and Conveyancing Act of 2009??

frazzledhome

Op, there's only one way to get a definitive answer to your question and that's a trip to your solicitor.

kollegeknight

Hi op,

We had a similar situation except the neighbour sold to the forestry company. We bought the width of a road off the company and built it. No hassle.

Maybe the neighbour might sell the width of a road to you

tomieen jones

Property registration authority would request a signature from this man to agree your right of way! As you already have access I doubt you had a verbal agreement of right of way through his land only as stated a short cut! If you wanted to pursue this it would be a long and costly route through the courts! So in fact this short cut could cost you very dearly!! And that's in the remote chance a court would rule in you're favour! Buy a bike cycle the extra mile and leave this man farm his lands as he so wishes

dialer

If the right of way is shown on land registery maps, then anyone can use that walkway of land. He then cant fence this off or obstruct it.
Id check if it actually is right of way or just an old agreement between farmers.

howdee

Op you have 3 options imo,
1, Go see a solicitor and see what your rights are challenge your neighbours
obstruction of a row.
2, Forget about it
3, Wait for it to be sold and buy it.

stephenl15

I don't understand your complaint? The land is not yours, I don't see why you think you have a right to use his field as access. It sounds like a courtesy that you were being allowed to use his field in the first place.

saor19

Consent can actually defeat a claim. The old law (& time limits) work in conjunction with the 2009 act until 2021.
People are also getting confused between public rights of way and private ones. The law is completely different for both.
If I was you, I'd be going to see a solicitor. They'll put you straight!

kowtow

In any event the right of way you seek is a right of way on foot only, in other words a footpath. I doubt that your neighbours consent went any further than that, so that is what you have enjoyed.

From memory new rights of way rules / procedures (which are 2010 I think) require a more formal registration of rights of way than in the past - i.e. register it or lose it. They are very cumbersome and operate by voluntary written consent of all affected (neighbours). It does not sound as if this is going to be easily given, so you would need to ask for a ruling.

And (again from memory) the principal circumstances in which a ruling is given under the 2010 rules are when there is no other access to a property, in other words to prevent contrary neighbours turning well used but unregistered easements into ransom strips. This doesn't apply in your case as by the sounds of it you have an established access already.

Seems an expensive and aggressive route to take for such a limited access.

noddyk

ihavenoname3 wrote: »

If the "right of way" was the only way you could access your land, you would have a strong case, but it is not so you don't in my opinion. Also your Neighbour is an old man so you say, do you really want to be causing him stress and be fighting with him at this stage of his life over such a matter?

I'm not going to "fight" anyone . . . Why is that the first thing that came to everyone's mind. I was questioning my entitlements considering the route was used with past 80 years

noddyk

stephenl15 wrote: »

I don't understand your complaint? The land is not yours, I don't see why you think you have a right to use his field as access. It sounds like a courtesy that you were being allowed to use his field in the first place.

Again . . . Who's complaining? My question asks what are my entitlements, if any???

High bike

noddyk wrote: »

Again . . . Who's complaining? My question asks what are my entitlements, if any???

I doubt you have any entitlements as such,but if you want clarification see a solicitor

AnFeirmeoir

if you look at it from hes point of view, because he has been a good neighbour for 80 years, you now have a say in what he does with his land !! Wether this is true or not in law, its wrong.

Time to return the favour I think.

We have they exact same set up. We access our land by crossing 2 neighbours fields for generations. Its not a right of way. Its a short cut. The neigbours can tell us to stop if they want.

MayoAreMagic

noddyk wrote: »

I'm not going to "fight" anyone . . . Why is that the first thing that came to everyone's mind. I was questioning my entitlements considering the route was used with past 80 years

If he doesn't want you in his land, and you want to go against that wish - even considering legal advice to do so, then you are fighting him. This stuff about 80 years doesn't come into it. He said no, you want to keep going anyway. You are fighting him.

stephenl15

noddyk wrote: »

Again . . . Who's complaining? My question asks what are my entitlements, if any???

Why would you have any? It's his land, therefore, if he does not grant you permission, you are tresspassing.

saor19

stephenl15 wrote: »

Why would you have any? It's his land, therefore, if he does not grant you permission, you are tresspassing.

The law can state otherwise. The OP may have an entitlement. The only way they will know is if they get legal advice.

Miname

saor19 wrote: »

The law can state otherwise. The OP may have an entitlement. The only way they will know is if they get legal advice.

What's the legal thing and what's the right thing to do may be too different matters. He done the decent thing by letting you use his ground for a while now do the decent thing and leave him be even if he's gone bad tempered in his old age. What's that saying an eye for an eye and everyone goes blind.

MayoAreMagic

Miname wrote: »

What's the legal thing and what's the right thing to do may be too different matters. He done the decent thing by letting you use his ground for a while now do the decent thing and leave him be even if he's gone bad tempered in his old age. What's that saying an eye for an eye and everyone goes blind.

It isn't even an eye for an eye. The guy done them a favour for 80 years to let them cross through his land. He cant do that any more, and to thank him they want to basically lessen his rights on the piece they were crossing on. It is the equivalent of letting someone in to use the bathroom in your home, and they take the sink with them. The only thing I can take from this is, don't bother your backside helping people. If he had been awkward and told them to go around, he would have been better off.

stephenl15

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It isn't even an eye for an eye. The guy done them a favour for 80 years to let them cross through his land. He cant do that any more, and to thank him they want to basically lessen his rights on the piece they were crossing on. It is the equivalent of letting someone in to use the bathroom in your home, and they take the sink with them. The only thing I can take from this is, don't bother your backside helping people. If he had been awkward and told them to go around, he would have been better off.

Exactly my thinking

tomieen jones

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It isn't even an eye for an eye. The guy done them a favour for 80 years to let them cross through his land. He cant do that any more, and to thank him they want to basically lessen his rights on the piece they were crossing on. It is the equivalent of letting someone in to use the bathroom in your home, and they take the sink with them. The only thing I can take from this is, don't bother your backside helping people. If he had been awkward and told them to go around, he would have been better off.

I would say letting someone use you're bathroom in your house and then you convert the bathroom into a utility room but the guy still wants to come in and use that room to $#1t on the floor

noddyk

Just checked the land maps and the right of way is marked on it. . . . .so I shud be okay. Thanks for all the help lads

_Brian

sure it is :rolleyes:

moleyv

Landdirect.ie Log in as a guest, find on the map, a documented right of way will be shown in yellow on the map. Then you can get a pdf copy of the land registry for a fiver for each plot. This should detail the specifics of the right of way.

*This might not show all established and registered rights of ways.

And if you want to establish and record such a right of way you will need legal advice.