Should we bring back college fees and student loans?

steddyeddy

We're very lucky in Ireland in that the government pays the large majority of our college fees for us. This was originally intended to encourage students from disadvantaged backgrounds into third level education. This didn't work IMHO and participation from disadvantaged backgrounds hasn't increased hugely. In my opinion this is because these students aren't being encouraged to go to college by their school or family and this is compounded by the sub standard schools they attend.

So if free fees aren't doing their job should be bring in fees and introduce a loan system? A lot of students I see don't appreciate the fact that the taxpayer is paying for their education. We could even raise fees and introduce a loan system to better fund our universities. This puts everyone in the same boat and a loan could be increased to cover living expenses. Some students have their parents pay for their rent, masters ect and I think a loan system would introduce personal responsibility.

silverfeather

Been there done that / thread. No no no no nononononononoonononononononooooooooooo

Tony Beetroot

Give them butter vouchers.

silverfeather

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Give them butter vouchers.

They practically give booze vouchers on freshers week.

Atlantic Dawn

For students engaged in studies that are going to roles oversubscribed in this country yes. Complete waste of money educating multiples of the numbers we will require ever for certain roles in this country, pure export of resources and a waste.

Mr_Muffin

Yeah make each year of college 50k. With the money we make we can build more colleges and get more students to pay. Before we know it everyone in the country will be a student and we will be booming again.

Tony Beetroot

sugarman wrote: »

Why does it work so well for Germany then?

We need angas to answer that.

silverfeather

sugarman wrote: »

Why does it work so well for Germany then?

German public universities are usually free for students. As far as I know..

Mint Aero

More sh*te I see eddy :rolleyes: Where are you getting this notion that students don't appreciate the tax payer paying? :rolleyes: Have you asked them? or were ya hoping young 18/19 impressionable students would show their "gratitude" to the big tax paying man like your good self whenever you click your fingers? :rolleyes:

steddyeddy

I'm not hearing a lot of reasons why this would be a bad idea?

steddyeddy

Mint Aero wrote: »

More sh*te I see eddy :rolleyes: Where are you getting this notion that students don't appreciate the tax payer paying? :rolleyes: Have you asked them? or were hoping young 18/19 impressionable students would show their "gratitude" to the big tax paying man like your good self whenever you click your fingers? :rolleyes:

Because I spent four years teaching them as a PhD giving tutorials and lab demonstrations and a lot of them don't give a sh1t. They're being funded by the taxpayer to party. If a loan system were brought in people would think more carefully about the degree they picked and they might even take it more seriously.

Tony Beetroot

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not hearing a lot of reasons why this would be a bad idea?

Posting in wrong forum, is there any collage forums?

osarusan

If anything, this would probably lead to even fewer students from disadvantaged areas going to university, wouldn't it?

And fewer students in general going to university?

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

If anything, this would probably lead to even fewer students from disadvantaged areas going to university, wouldn't it?

And fewer students in general going to university?

Why would it? I don't see why it would. A disadvantaged student and a not disadvantaged student would both be in the same position.

Witcher

You're fairly fond of this topic;

Students: Should they get free fees and do they benefit society?

Free college fees? Should they be scrapped?

Is the student grant funding fair?

Abolishing free fees in university?

Mint Aero

steddyeddy wrote: »

Because I spent four years teaching them as a PhD giving tutorials and lab demonstrations and a lot of them don't give a sh1t. They're being funded by the taxpayer to party. If a loan system were brought in people would think more carefully about the degree they picked and they might even take it more seriously.

Yeah kinda some truth to it but ye know college is about partying too. I think even with fees ya'd still get the same types but sure they pass anyway at the end of the day and get jobs don't they?

Tony Beetroot

Strider wrote: »

You're fairly fond of this topic;

Serious hard on for sure :pac:

osarusan

steddyeddy wrote: »

Why would it? I don't see why it would. A disadvantaged student and a not disadvantaged student would both be in the same position.

For all the reasons you mentioned in your OP, and adding the fact that they'd now have to pay for it.

steddyeddy

Mint Aero wrote: »

Yeah kinda some truth to it but ye know college is about partying too. I think even with fees ya'd still get the same types but sure they pass anyway at the end of the day don't they?

Yep they do pass but with more funding for the university and less burden to the taxpayer if we switched to loans.

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

For all the reasons you mentioned in your OP, and adding the fact that they'd now have to pay for it.

They pay for it only after they make a certain amount a year like the UK system.

steddyeddy

Strider wrote: »

You're fairly fond of this topic;

Students: Should they get free fees and do they benefit society?

Free college fees? Should they be scrapped?

Is the student grant funding fair?

Abolishing free fees in university?

Yep 8 years in science will do that to you.

peekachoo

I'm a college student. I already have a student loan, I get the SUSI grant and I still have to scrape by to survive.
I don't ask my parents for money cause they already had 2 kids in college which was a struggle - we're not disadvantaged but not well off either - and I know they can't afford to do things like pay my rent etc.
And you want to reintroduce fees? The only reason I, and many others, get the chance to better ourselves, get a college education etc is because the fees are covered. I also think its a great motivation for students knowing that if they fail and have to repeat, they probably have to drop out because they can't afford the fees to repeat.

osarusan

steddyeddy wrote: »

They pay for it only after they make a certain amount a year like the UK system.

They'll still have to pay for it in that case (which you didn't mention in your OP).

I'm not sure who this is going to help.

University students?
Universities?
The taxpayer?

Who benefits?

silverfeather

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not hearing a lot of reasons why this would be a bad idea?

A lot of important professions for example don't have the earning potential to repay them. Teachers and nurses for example.

They are a drain on the younger economy.

A lot of students actually have no prior financial history of repaying loans. And therefore it's harder to prove ability to pay it back. Banks tend to take the risk.

It would give rise to private loan companies. They sometimes raise the rate without notice. Younger people don't know what they are getting into. They can sometimes require underwriting. They accept cosigners as proof of ability to pay. Since that would usually be a parent it's not a good sign of someone's ability to actually repay. Cosigners will be putting their credit at risk.

Students will be putting their credit at risk at a young age.

Lau2976

Bringing in college fees would just discourage people from going to college. 18/19 year olds are short sighted. They aren't going to see the benefit of college unless they're particularly mature until they're older. Having free fees benefits society, by ensuring that it isn't just the wealthy, who may not be suited, getting into courses because they are the only ones who can afford it.

A kid from a lower class family is going to see not only 4 years they can't be in full time employment but years of paying the tax payer on top of their own taxes.

silverfeather

Strider wrote: »

You're fairly fond of this topic;

Jesus....

steddyeddy

peekachoo wrote: »

I'm a college student. I already have a student loan, I get the SUSI grant and I still have to scrape by to survive.
I don't ask my parents for money cause they already had 2 kids in college which was a struggle - we're not disadvantaged but not well off either - and I know they can't afford to do things like pay my rent etc.
And you want to reintroduce fees? The only reason I, and many others, get the chance to better ourselves, get a college education etc is because the fees are covered. I also think its a great motivation for students knowing that if they fail and have to repeat, they probably have to drop out because they can't afford the fees to repeat.

Actually I would want to introduce a loan to pay for both fees and living expenses. The same for everyone. I know right now there are families that would be comfortable but they don't receive a grant based on their income. Those families are often worse off.

Under my proposed system everyone would get the same and it's up to the student to pay it off when he/she earns over a certain amount.

silverfeather

Lau2976 wrote: »

Bringing in college fees would just discourage people from going to college. 18/19 year olds are short sighted. They aren't going to see the benefit of college unless they're particularly mature until they're older. Having free fees benefits society, by ensuring that it isn't just the wealthy, who may not be suited, getting into courses because they are the only ones who can afford it.

A kid from a lower class family is going to see not only 4 years they can't be in full time employment but years of paying the tax payer on top of their own taxes.

Here here.

steddyeddy

Lau2976 wrote: »

Bringing in college fees would just discourage people from going to college. 18/19 year olds are short sighted. They aren't going to see the benefit of college unless they're particularly mature until they're older. Having free fees benefits society, by ensuring that it isn't just the wealthy, who may not be suited, getting into courses because they are the only ones who can afford it.

A kid from a lower class family is going to see not only 4 years they can't be in full time employment but years of paying the tax payer on top of their own taxes.

You don't understand what I'm suggesting.

steddyeddy

silverfeather wrote: »

A lot of important professions for example don't have the earning potential to repay them. Teachers and nurses for example.

They are a drain on the younger economy.

A lot of students actually have no prior financial history of repaying loans. And therefore it's harder to prove ability to pay it back. Banks tend to take the risk.

It would give rise to private loan companies. They sometimes raise the rate without notice. Younger people don't know what they are getting into. They can sometimes require underwriting. They accept cosigners as proof of ability to pay. Since that would usually be a parent it's not a good sign of someone's ability to actually repay. Cosigners will be putting their credit at risk.

Students will be putting their credit at risk at a young age.

The loans would be automatically issued similar to a UK loan system.

silverfeather

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually I would want to introduce a loan to pay for both fees and living expenses. The same for everyone. I know right now there are families that would be comfortable but they don't receive a grant based on their income. Those families are often worse off.

Under my proposed system everyone would get the same and it's up to the student to pay it off when he/she earns over a certain amount.

Well that is a silly silly plan...

Life is not like that. Students don't find jobs right away..or they don't earn as much or never will you never know.

You know who pays in the states if students default on fed loans?? The fed govt. :rolleyes:

steddyeddy

silverfeather wrote: »

Well that is a silly silly plan...

Life is not like that. Students don't find jobs right away..or they don't earn as much or never will you never know.

You know who pays in the states if students default on fed loans?? The fed govt. :rolleyes:

No they don't but they wouldn't pay the loans back until they do find jobs.

silverfeather

I find it Ironic the OP asks us to support the science education forum!

osarusan

steddyeddy wrote: »

The loans would be automatically issued similar to a UK loan system.

The loan would be forced on them? They would have no choice about it?

silverfeather

steddyeddy wrote: »

No they don't but they wouldn't pay the loans back until they do find jobs.

Hampers liquidity.

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

The loan would be forced on them? They would have no choice about it?

Or pay the full fees through some other means!

Sheldons Brain

It is easy to say not to have fees, but will you pay the taxes to support the system? In Ireland even people with 3 or 4 children in education will think the government is screwing them and the person with the degree and the good job as a consequence will go to the US because taxes are lower.

Tony Beetroot

silverfeather wrote: »

Well that is a silly silly plan...

Have you 8 years in science to be calling it silly?

peekachoo

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually I would want to introduce a loan to pay for both fees and living expenses. The same for everyone. I know right now there are families that would be comfortable but they don't receive a grant based on their income. Those families are often worse off.

Under my proposed system everyone would get the same and it's up to the student to pay it off when he/she earns over a certain amount.

Taxes are spent on worse and stupider things. Your proposed system, like the one in the UK can leave anyone crippled in debt as soon as they're seen fit to afford it - basically giving all Irish students a looming tens of thousands of euros to owe before they even finish college. If anything its off putting and will decrease the number of students - not everyone will want to commit to that kind of money at such a young age when they have no perception of how much money it actually is that they owe. The fees system works, leave it alone.

osarusan

steddyeddy wrote: »

Or pay the full fees through some other means!

Which means that it doesn't really level the playing field and a disadvantaged student and a not disadvantaged student aren't really in the same position.

steddyeddy

I was a disadvantaged student and I can't see how this would put me off. I would be trained in an area of science that I love and I wouldn't have to pay for it until I got a good job. That's not exactly unfair is it?

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

Which means that it doesn't really level the playing field and a disadvantaged student and a not disadvantaged student aren't really in the same position.

Well you won't exactly level the playing field and the loan system wouldn't exclusively be about that. I would hope that this would improve university funding. If we raise the fees slightly I can't imagine there's too many families in Ireland that would pay for them,

osarusan

steddyeddy wrote: »

I was a disadvantaged student and I can't see how this would put me off. I would be trained in an area of science that I love and I wouldn't have to pay for it until I got a good job. That's not exactly unfair is it?

But now you don't have to pay for it at all!

It's not better for anybody, and worse for some.

Again I'll ask you, who is supposed to benefit from this? What's its aim?

Flood

https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3288/2961175776_b341ca0fc5.jpg

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

But now you don't have to pay for it at all!

It's not better for anybody, and worse for some.

Exactly. I don't pay for it now. That's not exactly fair is it?

Lau2976

steddyeddy wrote: »

You don't understand what I'm suggesting.

I do. Your suggesting the British system of fee and living expenses loans. My point is perfect reasonable on your suggestion.

These loans give favor to kids from wealthy homes as they don't need a loan. How many parents will let their kids take big loans at 18 if they can afford to pay for it?

Kids from lower class families are going to see the 4 years getting their undergrad where they aren't available to work full time an the years they'll be paying it back and most will decide it isn't worth it.

If we average out 4 years at college at €9000 a year, that's €36000 without living expenses. Even having these loans be interest free, which would mean the system isn't paying for itself anyway, paying back €100 a month, which for many right now is impossible if they arent in a higher paying job anyway, only works out at €1200 a year.

That means 30 years of paying back at that rate.

So you honestly want to turn to kids already disadvantaged and tell them that they'll have 30 years of repayment ahead if them.

Many are going to take their chances without a degree

peekachoo

steddyeddy wrote: »

Exactly. I don't pay for it now. That's not exactly fair is it?

You're kinda paying for it in taxes, one could say. Others paid for you in their taxes and now its your turn?
Just a thought.

The Backwards Man

I was a fully subsisdised student and I learned fcuk all, including how to spell subsidised. I went to college to doss and avoid full time work like many did, if amybody really wants to learn, charge the fcukers plenty!

steddyeddy

Lau2976 wrote: »

I do. Your suggesting the British system of fee and living expenses loans. My point is perfect reasonable on your suggestion.

These loans give favor to kids from wealthy homes as they don't need a loan. How many parents will let their kids take big loans at 18 if they can afford to pay for it?

Kids from lower class families are going to see the 4 years getting their undergrad where they aren't available to work full time an the years they'll be paying it back and most will decide it isn't worth it.

If we average out 4 years at college at €9000 a year, that's €36000 without living expenses. Even having these loans be interest free, which would mean the system isn't paying for itself anyway, paying back €100 a month, which for many right now is impossible if they arent in a higher paying job anyway, only works out at €1200 a year.

That means 30 years of paying back at that rate.

So you honestly want to turn to kids already disadvantaged and tell them that they'll have 30 years of repayment ahead if them.

Many are going to take their chances without a degree

How many families in Ireland would pay 12 thousand a year if their child could get a no interest loan instead and low rates of payback?

osarusan

steddyeddy wrote: »

How many families in Ireland would pay 12 thousand a year if their child could get a no interest loan instead and low rates of payback?

Where does the 12 grand a year come from? Who lends it?

Lau2976

steddyeddy wrote: »

How many families in Ireland would pay 12 thousand a year if their child could get a no interest loan instead and low rates of payback?

Where did you get 12000 a year? I said 9000.

Did you read my post at all it?

Why would a Parent allow their child to take that on if they didn't have to?