Labours next push: Abortion

am946745

I was struck last night that Sky news mentioned twice the possibility that Ireland might have a referendum on abortion. Sad they linked gay marriage with abortion, but such is life.

I know many Catholics who while had some unease voting for gay marriage, they wanted their gay friends and family to feel included. so they voted in favour of the civil inclusion.

Now if there had been a referendum on abortion, that would have been a whole other issue. Voting to allow doctors kill children in Irish hospitals would be simply unpalatable for many.

The problem is all the political parties seem to be in bed together, we need a Christian democratic party to stand up for us.

curioser

am946745 wrote: »

I was struck last night that Sky news mentioned twice the possibility that Ireland might have a referendum on abortion. Sad they linked gay marriage with abortion, but such is life.

I know many Catholics who while had some unease voting for gay marriage, they wanted their gay friends and family to feel included. so they voted in favour of the civil inclusion.

Now if there had been a referendum on abortion, that would have been a whole other issue. Voting to allow doctors kill children in Irish hospitals would be simply unpalatable for many.

The problem is all the political parties seem to be in bed together, we need a Christian democratic party to stand up for us.

Sky wouldn't have mentioned an aborton referendum unless they were briefed by Government figures, specifically those in the Labour Party.

Labour sees an opportunity to strike while the iron is hot i.e having achieved one leg of its "liberal" agenda they can now go on to achieve their ambition on abortion, which is to have abortion on demand made available. They may have difficulty in bringing Fine Gael along but they certainly have almost unanimous support on the independent benches and in Sinn Fein.

Expect to see Anne Ferris to lead the charge, possibly as early as next week.

Agree with you on the need for a Christian democratic party - almost 40% of those who voted on the SSM issue were not represented by a political party in Leinster House.

K4t

curioser wrote: »

Agree with you on the need for a Christian democratic party - almost 40% of those who voted on the SSM issue were not represented by a political party in Leinster House.

Nonsense, of course they were. However, their political representatives disagreed with them on this issue and put equality before politics.

am946745

K4t wrote: »

Nonsense, of course they were. However, their political representatives disagreed with them on this issue and put equality before politics.

If they had clarified surrogacy and adoption there would not have been such a divide. If the vote was just about gay couples it would have passed with a higher majority.

eviltwin

am946745 wrote: »

If they had clarified surrogacy and adoption there would not have been such a divide. If the vote was just about gay couples it would have passed with a higher majority.

You can't argue with the will of the people. Yesterday showed that irish people are tolerant. If you want to have a faith that is judgemental towards gay people that's your choice. Just don't get upset if other people don't share it.

am946745

eviltwin wrote: »

You can't argue with the will of the people. Yesterday showed that irish people are tolerant. If you want to have a faith that is judgemental towards gay people that's your choice. Just don't get upset if other people don't share it.

Killing a child at any level is wrong, no matter how many people approve.

lazygal

am946745 wrote: »

Killing a child at any level is wrong, no matter how many people approve.

Is it wrong to kill a child when a woman's life is at risk?

eviltwin

am946745 wrote: »

Killing a child at any level is wrong, no matter how many people approve.

If the people vote to change it that's not up for discussion. You can disagree with it of course but don't expect everyone to share your views. It's already considered a given that most voters would allow abortion in the case of rape/incest and for fatal abnormalities. I don't think that would have been the case ten years ago. The country is changing.

traprunner

i couldn't agree more. Killing a child is wrong. Killing a foetus is up to the woman who's body it's living off. Obviously best international practice standards should apply.

fits

Eighth amendment has to go. Its causing terrible uncertainty and awful situations where people have to travel in extremely difficult circumstances. Im not loiking forward to the rhetoric and abuse of the campaign however.

am946745

lazygal wrote: »

Is it wrong to kill a child when a woman's life is at risk?

When trying the save a mother.. the intention is to save the mother not to kill the child.

Its the intention of the action that matters, you can't let the mother die. Most people get the distinction between doing everything to save both lives which sometimes means the child dies. To intentionally targeting the child, (for example when they discover it has downs syndrome or some other defect )

am946745

fits wrote: »

Eighth amendment has to go. Its causing terrible uncertainty and awful situations where people have to travel in extremely difficult circumstances. Im not loiking forward to the rhetoric and abuse of the campaign however.

What situations? When is it justified to kill a child that is living?

lazygal

fits wrote: »

Eighth amendment has to go. Its causing terrible uncertainty and awful situations where people have to travel in extremely difficult circumstances. Im not loiking forward to the rhetoric and abuse of the campaign however.

I didn't realise how stressed and nervous I was until mid morning on Saturday when it was clear there was a decent majority in favour of equality. I don't want to think about how different and difficult repeal of the abortion ban will be.

eviltwin

am946745 wrote: »

When trying the save a mother.. the intention is to save the mother not to kill the child.

Its the intention of the action that matters, you can't let the mother die. Most people get the distinction between doing everything to save both lives which sometimes means the child dies. To intentionally targeting the child, (for example when they discover it has downs syndrome or some other defect )

That's your opinion. It's not mine. I'm 38 and I've never had a say in Ireland's abortion laws. I think we should put it to a public vote. Let the people decide what's acceptable or not.

Timberrrrrrrr

am946745 wrote: »

What situations? When is it justified to kill a child that is living?

Should a pregnant 14 year old who has been raped be forced to carry a child to term and give birth?

lazygal

am946745 wrote: »

What situations? When is it justified to kill a child that is living?

When a woman's life is at risk, apparently. Even when this involves direct removal of the foetus from the uterus. It's dancing on the head of pins Jesuit nonsense to pretend abortion isn't abortion if it's killing a child to save a woman's life. Some countries don't allow abortion at all. Should Ireland do the same?

am946745

eviltwin wrote: »

That's your opinion. It's not mine. I'm 38 and I've never had a say in Ireland's abortion laws. I think we should put it to a public vote. Let the people decide what's acceptable or not.

Why should the right to life be dependent on peoples opinion? Its an objective reality.

lazygal

am946745 wrote: »

Why should the right to life be dependent on peoples opinion? Its an objective reality.

Why don't we follow the example of countries that don't ever allow the killing of the unborn even when women's lives are at risk?

am946745

lazygal wrote: »

When a woman's life is at risk, apparently. Even when this involves direct removal of the foetus from the uterus. It's dancing on the head of pins Jesuit nonsense to pretend abortion isn't abortion if it's killing a child to save a woman's life. Some countries don't allow abortion at all. Should Ireland do the same?

Sorry its not killing the child, its delivering the Child, big destination. Most mothers who are caught will always try and save the child, but when there is not option there is no option. Its morally right to deliver the child to save the mother, nobody intended to kill the child. Doctors did everything in the power. We always had legislations to save a mothers life.

eviltwin

am946745 wrote: »

Why should the right to life be dependent on peoples opinion? Its an objective reality.

Well that all comes down to if you think a foetus should have a right to life. I don't. Why would you be so reluctant to have a referendum? Worried it might be defeated?

Mr. teddywinkles

eviltwin wrote: »

You can't argue with the will of the people. Yesterday showed that irish people are tolerant. If you want to have a faith that is judgemental towards gay people that's your choice. Just don't get upset if other people don't share it.

Read his post its nothing to do with gay marriage Jesus. Yad wonder who is the homophobic people the people who vote for yes due to fear of seeming homophobic or the outright homophobic. Its pissing me off reading this on here.

am946745

eviltwin wrote: »

Well that all comes down to if you think a foetus should have a right to life. I don't. Why would you be so reluctant to have a referendum? Worried it might be defeated?

The Foetus is already alive. Medical fact. its a baby ( I sound like someone from Twilight movies here. ) But its the truth. Its not an opinion.

lazygal

am946745 wrote: »

Sorry its not killing the child, its delivering the Child, big destination. Most mothers who are caught will always try and save the child, but when there is not option there is no option. Its morally right to deliver the child to save the mother, nobody intended to kill the child. Doctors did everything in the power. We always had legislations to save a mothers life.

What's the difference between that and me requesting a child be delivered early because I don't want to be pregnant? Why is the child's right to life gone when someone else's life is at risk?

nc6000

There is no chance of Fine Gael touching this subject before the next election and Labour won't be part of the Government after the next election so it's a non-runner IMO.

traprunner

am946745 wrote: »

The Foetus is already alive. Medical fact. its a baby ( I sound like someone from Twilight movies here. ) But its the truth. Its not an opinion.

Nope. It is a parasite. It can't survive on its own so is not exactly alive. Do you think that malignant tumors should not be removed if the person with them wants to? They are living too.

eviltwin

am946745 wrote: »

The Foetus is already alive. Medical fact. its a baby ( I sound like someone from Twilight movies here. ) But its the truth. Its not an opinion.

Until its born I don't believe it has to right to stay in the womb against a woman's will. But as I say that's just my own opinion, let's see what the rest of the country think.

am946745

nc6000 wrote: »

There is no chance of Fine Gael touching this subject before the next election and Labour won't be part of the Government after the next election so it's a non-runner IMO.

Of course they will after the next election. If its not labour in Government its SF who are worse.

eviltwin

am946745 wrote: »

Of course they will after the next election. If its not labour in Government its SF who are worse.

Why are you against a referendum?

traprunner

am946745 wrote: »

Of course they will after the next election. If its not labour in Government its SF who are worse.

So a party that stands up for those who wanted to get back at the government for the bank situation, water charges etc?

EoghanIRL

am946745 wrote: »

Killing a child at any level is wrong, no matter how many people approve.

Christians before the referendum and some now continue to believe that two homosexual people getting married is wrong at any level , no matter how many people approve it.
The people have spoken. If abortion goes to a public vote then the people will speak again.

The opinions of Christians are not in touch with modern life. That's what happens when you base your beliefs on a book thousands of years old and make up the rest as you go along.
A Christian party would fail because they wouldn't represent the views of the general public.

Mr. teddywinkles

It looks like this government is going to solve all our moral questions in its term in office. Going down in history with the greats

aaakev

I think we definitely need a referendum on it, we need to stop forcing woman to travel to the UK in what is already a very stressful time.

If you dont agree with abortion dont have one, its really quite simple and until you have been in the situation where you need one you cannot really comment. Woman make the decision for many different reasons and its a very hard decision to make but the best one for them at the time

am946745

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

It looks like this government is going to solve all our moral questions in its term in office. Going down in history with the greats

yeah. Its called the art of political distraction (have you seen any coverage of Water charges, property tax, USC, hike on medical insurance, pension levy, Increases in home/Car insurance???, of course not, they are fantastic, we just follow like good sheep.

lazygal

am946745 wrote: »

yeah. Its called the art of political distraction (have you seen any coverage of Water charges, property tax, USC, hike on medical insurance, pension levy, Increases in home/Car insurance???, of course not, they are fantastic, we just follow like good sheep.

Why are you opposed to holding a referendum? Surely it's up to the people to decide the issue.

am946745

aaakev wrote: »

I think we definitely need a referendum on it, we need to stop forcing woman to travel to the UK in what is already a very stressful time.

If you dont agree with abortion dont have one, its really quite simple

So a Childs life depends on peoples opinion?

lazygal

am946745 wrote: »

So a Childs life depends on peoples opinion?

In your opinion it's ok to.kill the unborn when someone's life is at risk. Why is that?

traprunner

If it doesn't affect you then why stress yourself? Stress is detrimental to health. Worry about yourself and let others worry about themselves.

Sheldons Brain

aaakev wrote: »

I think we definitely need a referendum on it, we need to stop forcing woman to travel to the UK in what is already a very stressful time.

Travel is a complete red herring, nobody is forced to travel, they choose to do so. And just because Britain has abortion doesn't mean we must, that's independence for you. If they allow child sex somewhere in the world, that doesn't mean we have to introduce it because people may travel there.

If you dont agree with abortion dont have one, its really quite simple

If it is was only one life involved this would be fine. You might as well say that if you don't wish to become pregnant don't have sex.

eviltwin

am946745 wrote: »

So a Childs life depends on peoples opinion?

Pretty much yeah if that's what they want. None of your business either way what women decide to do with their pregnancy

porsche959

am946745 wrote: »

The Foetus is already alive. Medical fact. its a baby ( I sound like someone from Twilight movies here. ) But its the truth. Its not an opinion.

It does not have independent viability separate from the mother, at least not before around 23 weeks (at the earliest.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability

EoghanIRL

am946745 wrote: »

So a Childs life depends on peoples opinion?

No.
The life of a foetus depends on the mother's choice to have or not to have an abortion.
People's opinion will decide whether the woman will have this right or not.

aaakev

am946745 wrote: »

So a Childs life depends on peoples opinion?

until a fetus is able to live on its own i dont consider it a child and have no problem with any woman deciding to have an abortion

Mr. teddywinkles

lazygal wrote: »

Why are you opposed to holding a referendum? Surely it's up to the people to decide the issue.

I'll be honest I don't think a referendum will ever answer some questions about life.

traprunner

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Travel is a complete red herring, nobody is forced to travel, they choose to do so. And just because Britain has abortion doesn't mean we must, that's independence for you. If they allow child sex somewhere in the world, that doesn't mean we have to introduce it because people may travel there.

Yes we are independent so let's vote on it and let us independently decide.

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

If it is was only one life involved this would be fine. You might as well say that if you don't wish to become pregnant don't have sex.

Abstaining is all well and good but what about victims of rape? For the rest of us what of contraception/protection fails? They are not 100%

Sheldons Brain

aaakev wrote: »

until a fetus is able to live on its own i dont consider it a child and have no problem with any woman deciding to have an abortion

And if I don't consider Black people or homosexuals as real people, can I decide to eliminate them?

EoghanIRL

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

I'll be honest I don't think a referendum will ever answer some questions about life.

Well it would undoubtedly answer this one.

EoghanIRL

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

And if I don't consider Black people or homosexuals as real people, can I decide to eliminate them?

Are you actually serious?

am946745

aaakev wrote: »

until a fetus is able to live on its own i dont consider it a child and have no problem with any woman deciding to have an abortion

Define live on its own?

lazygal

am946745 wrote: »

Define live on its own?

Outside the uterus I guess. I don't have the right to use anyone's body to sustain my life, why does a woman have to sustain a foetus against her wishes?

aaakev

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Travel is a complete red herring, nobody is forced to travel, they choose to do so. And just because Britain has abortion doesn't mean we must, that's independence for you. If they allow child sex somewhere in the world, that doesn't mean we have to introduce it because people may travel there.



If it is was only one life involved this would be fine. You might as well say that if you don't wish to become pregnant don't have sex.

Yes it is a choice, a choice a woman is forced to make if she needs to avail of the service

lazygal

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

And if I don't consider Black people or homosexuals as real people, can I decide to eliminate them?

This type of comment really won't win people over to supporting keeping the eighth amendment in place.