Help: Parking in drive illegal??

jasmin22

Hi,

I am living in an estate and park my camper van in my drive off the public road since I got it last August.
Now I received a letter from the county re: alleged unauthorized long term storage of a campervan.

I don't use the camper very often but is parking it illegal??

Many thanks for any advice!
Jasmin

cerastes

Might depend on the council but my understanding is that anything that is kept in place over 9 months is not allowed.

jasmin22

cerastes wrote: »

Might depend on the council but my understanding is that anything that is kept in place over 9 months is not allowed.

Hi Cerastes,

thanks for the fast reply. I used it at least once since August where it was not parked at my home for 1 week. Would that still be considered 'long term' storage?

Cheers

niloc1951

jasmin22 wrote: »

Hi,

I am living in an estate and park my camper van in my drive off the public road since I got it last August.
Now I received a letter from the county re: alleged unauthorized long term storage of a campervan.

I don't use the camper very often but is parking it illegal??

Many thanks for any advice!
Jasmin

The clue is in your post.

It's not in storage, it's your vehicle parked on your driveway.

Are there any regulation governing the long term parking of vehicle owned by the occupier on his/her property, I think not. If there are perhaps you should consider removing it for a day:D

Littlehorny

Unless your blocking your neighbours view of the road when they are reversing out of their drive i.e causing a danger then i don't see what the problem is. Ring the council and tell them to send someone out to you face to face and explain the point of their letter.

Duvetdays

Neighbour across from me got a camper van and guy next door to her complained directly to her. Apparently she could only keep in garden for 9mth of year it had to be gone for 3. It used to be there for at least 11mth so he mustn't have made his complaint official to council. It sounds like one of your neighbours didn't have nerve to say anything to your face just complained directly to council.

jasmin22

Duvetdays wrote: »

Neighbour across from me got a camper van and guy next door to her complained directly to her. Apparently she could only keep in garden for 9mth of year it had to be gone for 3. It used to be there for at least 11mth so he mustn't have made his complaint official to council. It sounds like one of your neighbours didn't have nerve to say anything to your face just complained directly to council.

Yes, it looks just like it.

Did it have to go for the full 3 months? Or is it not enough to use it for a week and then back. Its a camper so who has the time to go camping for 3 months in a row? (Would love to though)

cerastes

Maybe you could park it at a relatives for 3 months and a day and then return it to yours, in my opinion so long as its clean and kept on a persons driveway I wouldn't be bothered, but if its left go to ruin and looks like a pile of scrap or is on the road, I'd be more inclined to consider it an eyesore myself. I thought the 9 month stay was widespread and well known.

jasmin22

cerastes wrote: »

Maybe you could park it at a relatives for 3 months and a day and then return it to yours, in my opinion so long as its clean and kept on a persons driveway I wouldn't be bothered, but if its left go to ruin and looks like a pile of scrap or is on the road, I'd be more inclined to consider it an eyesore myself. I thought the 9 month stay was widespread and well known.

Wasn't aware of the 9 month stay. So thanks for that!

niloc1951

jasmin22 wrote: »

Hi,

I am living in an estate and park my camper van in my drive off the public road since I got it last August.
Now I received a letter from the county re: alleged unauthorized long term storage of a campervan.

I don't use the camper very often but is parking it illegal??

Many thanks for any advice!
Jasmin

What regulation is quoted in the letter, i.e. what are the council basing their objection on?
What law or bye-law are they quoting your action is contrary to ?

Can you attach a scan of the letter, with your personal details blanked out.

ShaunieVW

If it's in a private driveway I do see what it's got to do with anybody else?

alias no.9

Park it on the street every Saturday after using it to go and buy the newspaper

jasmin22

niloc1951 wrote: »

What regulation is quoted in the letter, i.e. what are the council basing their objection on?
What law or bye-law are they quoting your action is contrary to ?

Can you attach a scan of the letter, with your personal details blanked out.

It's section 152 of the Planning and Development Act, 2000.

Duvetdays

jasmin22 wrote: »

Yes, it looks just like it.

Did it have to go for the full 3 months? Or is it not enough to use it for a week and then back. Its a camper so who has the time to go camping for 3 months in a row? (Would love to though)

No not for a full 3mths at once just in total I think. I didn't go that often as the neighbour only complained to her not the council but he's the type to do his homework with the facts before he confronted her so even though I've never seen it officially anywhere I believe it. We're DLRCOCO area. It never bothered anyone else that I know of, my opinion is it's her garden she can do what she wants.

It does look like one of your neighbours made a complaint to council. Also I wonder how anyone could prove it's there for longer than 9mths other then going out with the day's newspaper everyday and taking a picture of it with it.

*Kol*

I think the same rule applies to keeping a caravan too. To be honest I wouldn't fancy even looking at my own MH out in the front garden.

cerastes

ShaunieVW wrote: »

If it's in a private driveway I do see what it's got to do with anybody else?

That doesnt put it out of the reach of laws or bye laws, while an extreme example, I couldnt not dispose of my rubbish and just keep it on my drive or garden, it would be a health hazard and contrary to some law or bye law, just because its on a driveway doesnt make it exempt, it might seem different but the principle is the same, ie its against some law or bye law, thats just how it is.

HereAndThere

jasmin22 wrote: »

It's section 152 of the Planning and Development Act, 2000.

This act has nothing to do with parking?

If someone is taxing, insuring and having their campervan/motorhome certified road worthy each year then the same parking laws apply as other M class vehicles (I.e passenger vehicles). People in this country really piss me off sometimes, I don't complain about some awful looking cars parked on roadway or peoples own driveway because its none of my business.

savagethegoat

I would have thought that the 9 month would only apply if the vehicle wasn't taxed. If it is road legal, I don't see the Law differentiating between it and any other vehicle

niloc1951

jasmin22 wrote: »

It's section 152 of the Planning and Development Act, 2000.

This is the relevant definition in The Act, it explains what 'development' means as quoted in Section 152

Development.

3.—(1) In this Act, “development” means, except where the context therwise requires, the carrying out of any works on, in, over or under land or the making of any material change in the use of any structures or other land.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) and without prejudice to the generality of that subsection—

(a) where any structure or other land or any tree or other object on land becomes used for the exhibition of advertisements, or

(b) where land becomes used for any of the following purposes—

(i) the placing or keeping of any vans, tents or other objects, whether or not moveable and whether or not collapsible, for the purpose of caravanning or camping or habitation or the sale of goods,

(ii) the storage of caravans or tents, or

(iii) the deposit of vehicles whether or not usable for the purpose for which they were constructed or last used, old metal, mining or industrial waste, builders' waste, rubbish or debris,

The definition of 'park' in The Road Traffic Act 1961 is:
“park”, in relation to a vehicle, means keep or leave stationary

Does leaving the vehicle stationary beyond a certain time change it from being 'parked to 'stored', there is no guidance in Planning and the Development Act, 2000 on that issue. So I would ask for that in response to the letter.

Taxburden carrier

Assume it's ok to drive it to work Monday to Friday ?

jasmin22

niloc1951 wrote: »

This is the relevant definition in The Act, it explains what 'development' means as quoted in Section 152

Development.

3.—(1) In this Act, “development” means, except where the context therwise requires, the carrying out of any works on, in, over or under land or the making of any material change in the use of any structures or other land.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) and without prejudice to the generality of that subsection—

(a) where any structure or other land or any tree or other object on land becomes used for the exhibition of advertisements, or

(b) where land becomes used for any of the following purposes—

(i) the placing or keeping of any vans, tents or other objects, whether or not moveable and whether or not collapsible, for the purpose of caravanning or camping or habitation or the sale of goods,

(ii) the storage of caravans or tents, or

(iii) the deposit of vehicles whether or not usable for the purpose for which they were constructed or last used, old metal, mining or industrial waste, builders' waste, rubbish or debris,

The definition of 'park' in The Road Traffic Act 1961 is:
“park”, in relation to a vehicle, means keep or leave stationary

Does leaving the vehicle stationary beyond a certain time change it from being 'parked to 'stored', there is no guidance in Planning and the Development Act, 2000 on that issue. So I would ask for that in response to the letter.

Hi Niloc1951,

thanks for your answer!

Good point, I will try to find out. A friend who is a layer basically advised to move it. I already checked storage places near by and will move it so.

Your point is well made, when does parking end and when does storage start? So does that mean although it will now permenantly be parked somewhere else, can I still keep it for a few days in the drive e.g. to clean, repair, etc?

J

Irishgoatman

I would have thought that the 9 months referred to continous (un-moved) parking, therefore a fresh 9 month period would start after every trip, be it 1 day or 1 week.

reelkidmusic

This may seem a little naive but presumably if you take it out and drive and go for a short spin and come back, this would mean it being moved and no longer stored.

I think whoever reported you for parking your camper on your own property is probably a little jealous. Or else they just want you to start using your camper more often. Go on use it.... that's what its for!!!!!!

Somebody started a thread on here lately about a camper being parked on their street and deciding that they didn't like the look of it. I wonder if these two incidents are related?

Lemming

niloc1951 wrote: »

This is the relevant definition in The Act, it explains what 'development' means as quoted in Section 152

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) and without prejudice to the generality of that subsection—

(b) where land becomes used for any of the following purposes—

(i) the placing or keeping of any vans, tents or other objects, whether or not moveable and whether or not collapsible, for the purpose of caravanning or camping or habitation or the sale of goods,

Bold quote is mine for emphasis. The important word in all tthe above would appear to be "caravanning", which means to actively use for its intended purpose in your driveway. If it's parked up, it's parked up. I think someone's been hasty in their interpretation of the legislation.

seamus

jasmin22 wrote: »

Your point is well made, when does parking end and when does storage start? So does that mean although it will now permenantly be parked somewhere else, can I still keep it for a few days in the drive e.g. to clean, repair, etc?

J

Irishgoatman wrote: »

I would have thought that the 9 months referred to continous (un-moved) parking, therefore a fresh 9 month period would start after every trip, be it 1 day or 1 week.

reelkidmusic wrote: »

This may seem a little naive but presumably if you take it out and drive and go for a short spin and come back, this would mean it being moved and no longer stored.

Reading the relevant piece of legislation, it's not the caravan itself that's in breach but the use of the land.
That is, by having a caravan parked there, you are deemed to have changed the purpose of the land from a driveway to a place where caravans are stored.

In that context, taking it out for a day trip and bringing it back again won't "reset" the clock, as ultimately you are still using the driveway as a place for storing a caravan.

The 9 months probably comes from some court ruling, so I would reckon that a court would decide it doesn't mean "nine continuous months", but rather "9 months out of the last 12". In other words, if you ordinarily park a caravan in your driveway, then you have changed the use of that land. So it doesn't matter if you take it out for a few hours every day or go camping every second weekend. The fact that you keep the caravan ordinarily on your driveways means that you are storing it there, and as such may be breach of planning laws.

I'm not sure if motorhomes fall into the same category, though I suspect they do.

Lemming

seamus wrote: »

The 9 months probably comes from some court ruling, so I would reckon that a court would decide it doesn't mean "nine continuous months", but rather "9 months out of the last 12". In other words, if you ordinarily park a caravan in your driveway, then you have changed the use of that land. So it doesn't matter if you take it out for a few hours every day or go camping every second weekend. The fact that you keep the caravan ordinarily on your driveways means that you are storing it there, and as such may be breach of planning laws.

I'm not sure if motorhomes fall into the same category, though I suspect they do.

But Seamus, the explicit reference to using the campervan/motorhome for its intended purpose is a sort of captain obvious thing to say unless it means that you intend to use it for its purpose ON the land (i.e. driveway in this case) in question, no? Otherwise why put such a clause into the legislation?

jasmin22

seamus wrote: »

Reading the relevant piece of legislation, it's not the caravan itself that's in breach but the use of the land.
That is, by having a caravan parked there, you are deemed to have changed the purpose of the land from a driveway to a place where caravans are stored.

In that context, taking it out for a day trip and bringing it back again won't "reset" the clock, as ultimately you are still using the driveway as a place for storing a caravan.

The 9 months probably comes from some court ruling, so I would reckon that a court would decide it doesn't mean "nine continuous months", but rather "9 months out of the last 12". In other words, if you ordinarily park a caravan in your driveway, then you have changed the use of that land. So it doesn't matter if you take it out for a few hours every day or go camping every second weekend. The fact that you keep the caravan ordinarily on your driveways means that you are storing it there, and as such may be breach of planning laws.

I'm not sure if motorhomes fall into the same category, though I suspect they do.

There more I read and hear now, the more it seems to be exactly as you describe it.

seamus

Lemming wrote: »

But Seamus, the explicit reference to using the campervan/motorhome for its intended purpose is a sort of captain obvious thing to say unless it means that you intend to use it for its purpose ON the land (i.e. driveway in this case) in question, no? Otherwise why put such a clause into the legislation?

The second part of that clause specifically mentions storage

(b) where land becomes used for any of the following purposes—

(i) the placing or keeping of any vans, tents or other objects, whether or not moveable and whether or not collapsible, for the purpose of caravanning or camping or habitation or the sale of goods,

(ii) the storage of caravans or tents, or

I guess the reason that these are separate is that if someone was living out of a caravan on their driveway, you could probably complain about it after a week or two. But qualifying it as being "stored" there takes a bit longer.

db

OP, I would look for storage for 3 months less the time you are using your campervan. This will keep you within the legislation. If you bought it last August you are just past the 9 months allowed for and it looks like one of your neighbours has reported you. You are allowed 9 months in any year but it doesn't say whether that is a 12 month period or a calendar year. You could always write back and say that it has only been stored on your driveway for 5 months this year.

From Department of Environment

CLASS 8
The keeping or storing of a caravan,
campervan or boat within the curtilage of a
house.
1. Not more than one caravan, campervan
or boat shall be so kept or stored.
2. The caravan, campervan or boat shall not
be used for the storage, display,
advertisement or sale of goods or for the
purposes of any business.
3. No caravan, campervan or boat shall be
so kept or stored for more than 9 months
in any year or occupied as a dwelling
while so kept or stored.

niloc1951

Please remember that what is at issue here is a motor caravan which is a mechanically propelled vehicle, same as a car, a motorbike, a van, etc. etc.
It is not a caravan which is a trailer and is not capable of movement without assistance.

The letter the OP received also opens the question about keeping a trailer (like one for taking the garden rubbish to the tip) for example, but that's a story for elsewhere.

If parking a motor caravan is contrary to The Act then also is parking a car. If the vehicle is on a driveway which has planning permission then unless the PP contains a condition that limits how long a vehicle may be parked on it there is no regulation being broken.

This issue really looks like yet another attempt by some jobs-worth trying to shoehorn a motor caravan into a piece of legislation which has nothing to do with such vehicles.

niloc1951

db wrote: »

OP, I would look for storage for 3 months less the time you are using your campervan. This will keep you within the legislation. If you bought it last August you are just past the 9 months allowed for and it looks like one of your neighbours has reported you. You are allowed 9 months in any year but it doesn't say whether that is a 12 month period or a calendar year. You could always write back and say that it has only been stored on your driveway for 5 months this year.

From Department of Environment

Jees, that document has 387 pages any help as to where to find the piece quoted.

I note there is no mention of any other category of motor vehicle in the piece. Remember motor caravans are subject to VRT, Road Tax, compulsory insurance, and roadworthiness testing, caravans and boats are not.

One thinks immediately of discrimination against the owners of motor caravans, after all why should the owner of a motor caravan be subjected one rule for his/her motor vehicle and the owners of for example a car, or a 7.5 tonne box van or a motor horse box, etc. etc. not be subject to the same rule.

db

Niloc, the legislation specifically mentions campervan, caravan or boat. It does not mention trailers, horseboxes etc. It also mentions storing which would imply that the vehicle is not moved regularly during the time it is there.

I would say if you use your campervan regularly you are OK but if you leave it there between trips you are in trouble after 9 months.

I often see caravans and campervans parked in driveways all year without any complaints but I also know of a couple where neighbours have complained to the council and they had to go to storage.

savagethegoat

post 29 specifically mentions a campervan

Can you not just park it in your drive for 9 months, and then park it at the side of the road for 3 months? Rinse, repeat?

Or leave it at a different house for three months (a friend or non-complaining neighbour?).

ianobrien

In relation to post #29, is there a legal definition of a "campervan"? As much as I know there is no legal definition of a " campervan". They are defined as Motor Caravans by Revenue, classified as special purpose vehicles by the EU.

My response is to write back asking why am I being asked to move it as the leglislation does not mention Motor Caravans for 9months storage, as that is what its defined as by Revenue.

I assume there is no legislation imposing a max duration that any legal (taxed, insured etc) private vehicle can be parked on your property.

Irishgoatman

It's always possible of course that individual councils have their own bye-laws for Housing estates, both private and council, when it comes to parking.

niloc1951

Why should there be a difference between ONE OF THESE and ONE OF THESE and ONE OF THESE

The first is a motor caravan (or campervan if you want) an EU Category M1 vehicle, the second is a light commercial an EU Category N1 and the third is a car and EU category M1.

So there are restrictions on how long you can park the first one at your home but no restrictions on the other two.

In fact two and three could be one of these or one of these

A load od B@ll@x :rolleyes:

Crumbs868

niloc1951 wrote: »

Why should there be a difference between ONE OF THESE and ONE OF THESE and ONE OF THESE

The first is a motor caravan (or campervan if you want) an EU Category M1 vehicle, the second is a light commercial an EU Category N1 and the third is a car and EU category M1.

So there are restrictions on how long you can park the first one at your home but no restrictions on the other two.

A load od B@ll@x :rolleyes:

Wow talk about totally missing the point of the legislation which was not aimed at the vehicles you have chosen to compare

niloc1951

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Wow talk about totally missing the point of the legislation which was not aimed at the vehicles you have chosen to compare

The first one is a campervan

There nothing in the regs. that I saw which mentioned size.

savagethegoat

yeah but noone is likely to complain about that one to force the Council to apply the Law. Obviously someone did about the OPs van.

My own camper lives at the back of my Car port.....hardly visible and I doubt anyone will ever complain about it.

niloc1951

savagethegoat wrote: »

yeah but noone is likely to complain about that one to force the Council to apply the Law. Obviously someone did about the OPs van.

My own camper lives at the back of my Car port.....hardly visible and I doubt anyone will ever complain about it.

Visible or not, your still breaking the same stupid law, and so am I for that matter some years.

But the real issue is why is a motorhome discriminated against and not other vehicles.
Why should the owner of a motorhome be required to seek storage away from his/her home (at an expense) while owners of other vehicles can keep theirs at their homes indefinitely.
Are not all citizens supposed to be treated equally.

savagethegoat

because they can be unsightly parked in someone s front garden, especially in a City estate, and there has to be some kind of control

niloc1951

savagethegoat wrote: »

because they can be unsightly parked in someone s front garden, especially in a City estate, and there has to be some kind of control

So can lots of other stuff that's not a motor caravan, how about a rusty old Transit or an old heap that wouldn't have a chance of passing its NCT.
But many motorhomes are shiny like new and the pride of their owners.

Ever seen a house and garden that's like a landfill site in the middle of well maintained houses, I'm sure the neighbours get really pi$$ed off in such situations but they have no on to go crying to.

IMHO the OP is probably suffering from the usual anti-motorhome sentiment of those who have not and begrudge those who have.

savagethegoat

If I lived in a small semi in the suburbs and my view from my from window was dominated by a camper or a caravan (or anything else unsightly such as you mention) I'd be objecting too.

Irishgoatman

If I were in this position I would be arguing that there is a hell of a difference between something being Kept or Stored as opposed to being parked between trips.

digger58

savagethegoat wrote: »

If I lived in a small semi in the suburbs and my view from my from window was dominated by a camper or a caravan (or anything else unsightly such as you mention) I'd be objecting too.

I think you will find planning laws do not entitle you to a nice view! A camper is an MPV within the RTA, if it i used for a weekend then surely the clock starts ticking again when it returns? I think the main idea of this legislation is to prevent people living in campers/caravans outside houses. I would test them anyway and seek answers from the sender of the letter.

*Kol*

niloc1951 wrote: »

The first one is a campervan

There nothing in the regs. that I saw which mentioned size.

That's true Niloc. Though a little Romahome is easier on the eye than a 25 foot long 10 foot high campervan or a large caravan shoehorned into the front garden of a house.

savagethegoat

digger58 wrote: »

I think you will find planning laws do not entitle you to a nice view! A camper is an MPV within the RTA, if it i used for a weekend then surely the clock starts ticking again when it returns? I think the main idea of this legislation is to prevent people living in campers/caravans outside houses. I would test them anyway and seek answers from the sender of the letter.

well that's quite true, but that's not the regulation you could object under..... it's why the one i question exists

Mellor

niloc1951 wrote: »

What regulation is quoted in the letter

Planning and Development Act.
The reason a caravan/campervan or motor home is affected, and not cars, vans etc, is because they are able to be lived in, and is consided developement - along with caravans for example

ShaunieVW wrote: »

If it's in a private driveway I do see what it's got to do with anybody else?

The same reason you need permission to build a second house in your driveway, or build an extension beyond set limits.

Without this restriction, somebody who owns any site, could open it up and let 20 campervans or caravan move into without control (read between the lines here).

niloc1951 wrote: »

Please remember that what is at issue here is a motor caravan which is a mechanically propelled vehicle, same as a car, a motorbike, a van, etc. etc.
It is not a caravan which is a trailer and is not capable of movement without assistance.

Motor caravan is covered by campervan. Not sure why you ignored that bit.

digger58 wrote: »

I think you will find planning laws do not entitle you to a nice view! A camper is an MPV within the RTA, if it i used for a weekend then surely the clock starts ticking again when it returns? .

No. The regulations state 9 months total out of a year, not continuously.

Here is the exact regulation.

CLASS 8
The keeping or storing of a caravan,
campervan or boat within the curtilage of a
house.
1. Not more than one caravan, campervan
or boat shall be so kept or stored.
2. The caravan, campervan or boat shall not
be used for the storage, display,
advertisement or sale of goods or for the
purposes of any business.
3. No caravan, campervan or boat shall be
so kept or stored for more than 9 months
in any year or occupied as a dwelling
while so kept or stored.

Now here's the good news.
The above is the requirement for exempt development, which means you can store a caravan on your land for 9 months without seeking permission (similar to building an small exempt exempt shed or extension). However, that doesn't mean that storing it beyond this is illegal - it simply means that in order to do so you need to get permission.
(When somebody is carrying out major renovations or building new, they often moving into a caravan on the site for a short while. Then need to get council permission also)

So, the best solution from here would be to apply to the council for permission imo.


Reply to the council's letter, or call down in person and speak to them.
Tell them that you got the campervan last august, used it a few times and have stored in on your drive for, so far for <9 months, in accordance with SCHEDULE 2, PART 1: Exempted Development, Class 8, of the Planning and Development Act.
Explain that you intend to apply for planning permission, to store the campervan at your home when it is not it use. State that the campervan will at no time be occupied as a dwelling and you are happy for the permission to be conditioned as such and that you will remove the campervan until after permission is granted.

db

niloc1951 wrote: »

Jees, that document has 387 pages any help as to where to find the piece quoted.

Just use Search - Ctrl-F


The key thing here is what is permissible is covered under an exemption to planning laws. The exemption specifically deals with storage which would imply that it is being left there and not used regularly. Staying in a caravan, campervan or boat is dealt with in a different section.

You may have a point with the definition of a campervan but as this is planning law I don't think the vehicle classifications apply. They just need to rely on the dictionary definition.

digger58

Is it a calendar year or a period of 12 months?