As Christians how do people feel about David Quinn's response to yes vote?

JohnBee

Not sure if people have heard David Quinn comment on the yes vote but just wondering how Christians feel?

Basically his attitude was that they had an uphill battle, that their tactics failed and that they started their campaign too late.

I found this very patronizing. It almost suggests that the outcome of the referendum, in his view, is that it represents the outcome of the best campaign. To me this is quite small minded of him. Why can he (and Iona) not just accept that this is a sign of the will of the people and that his views (and that of the mothers and fathers group) are minority views that are out of place in 2015?

smokingman

I would be more curious to know what your average christian thinks of the other head of iona describing good people who were prominant catholics that voted yes, as some sort of monsters.

Manach

Given the invective & demonisation hurl at Mr. Quinn by the tolerant classes of Ireland, it was hardly likely that any form of concession that did not involve a form of his auto-proskynesis would have been accepted. :rolleyes:
The electoral defeat is likely to one of many such, with the anti-clericalism coming in to bloom as is the fashion, but just as the eve of Pentecost approaches, so to does the enduring message of the Church's message and that hopefully will continue to be heard.

katydid

JohnBee wrote: »

Not sure if people have heard David Quinn comment on the yes vote but just wondering how Christians feel?

Basically his attitude was that they had an uphill battle, that their tactics failed and that they started their campaign too late.

I found this very patronizing. It almost suggests that the outcome of the referendum, in his view, is that it represents the outcome of the best campaign. To me this is quite small minded of him. Why can he (and Iona) not just accept that this is a sign of the will of the people and that his views (and that of the mothers and fathers group) are minority views that are out of place in 2015?

Considering the amount of people involved in the NO side, they got more than their fair share of coverage in the media.

PopePalpatine

Manach wrote: »

Given the invective & demonisation hurl at Mr. Quinn by the tolerant classes of Ireland, it was hardly likely that any form of concession that did not involve a form of his auto-proskynesis would have been accepted. :rolleyes:
The electoral defeat is likely to one of many such, with the anti-clericalism coming in to bloom as is the fashion, but just as the eve of Pentecost approaches, so to does the enduring message of the Church's message and that hopefully will continue to be heard.

His side gave as good as they got:

galljga1

Manach wrote: »

Given the invective & demonisation hurl at Mr. Quinn by the tolerant classes of Ireland, it was hardly likely that any form of concession that did not involve a form of his auto-proskynesis would have been accepted. :rolleyes:
The electoral defeat is likely to one of many such, with the anti-clericalism coming in to bloom as is the fashion, but just as the eve of Pentecost approaches, so to does the enduring message of the Church's message and that hopefully will continue to be heard.

David Quinn is poisonous and he and his ilk have used spurious and insulting arguments to derail every debate in which they have had representation. He should bow down and beg forgiveness for his blinkered, bigoted views.
And yes, the country is in the process of lessening the church's influence on the day to day lives of those of us who have no interest in what they preach and rightly so.

Manach

galljga1 wrote: »

David Quinn is poisonous and he and his ilk have used spurious and insulting arguments to derail every debate in which they have had representation. He should bow down and beg forgiveness for his blinkered, bigoted views.
And yes, the country is in the process of lessening the church's influence on the day to day lives of those of us who have no interest in what they preach and rightly so.

New Ireland: so forgiving and so sure of its moral superiority. What a brave new world that has such people in it.

Penny Tration

Manach wrote: »

New Ireland: so forgiving and so sure of its moral superiority. What a brave new world that has such people in it.

So, rather than address what's in the posts you've responded to, you're just going to condescend to people?

Okay then.

ziedth

Manach wrote: »

New Ireland: so forgiving and so sure of its moral superiority. What a brave new world that has such people in it.

Makes a welcome change from the churches moral superiority to be honest

Manach

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

So, rather than address what's in the posts you've responded to, you're just going to condescend to people?

Okay then.

Seriously, really seriously. The bland and recycled cliches anti-clericism get a pass it is the opinions that diverge from the new norm (well the current one, I'm sure there is another one coming so if you do like it) that one gets to critique. So very surprised, or not.

galljga1

Manach wrote: »

New Ireland: so forgiving and so sure of its moral superiority. What a brave new world that has such people in it.

Yeah, bring back John Charles, all is forgiven. Lets start throwing young girls into slavery again and take their children to be dispensed to 'good' couples. How about raping children? Should we return to that?

There is a lot to forgive "the church" for but until such time as they admit their sins and seek forgiveness, it will not be forthcoming from me.

Manach

ziedth wrote: »

Makes a welcome change from the churches moral superiority to be honest

Well, so long as one kowtows to whatever the prevailing orthodoxies (TBD) I'm sure one will get on fine.

galljga1

Manach wrote: »

Well, so long as one kowtows to whatever the prevailing orthodoxies (TBD) I'm sure one will get on fine.

The thing is, we have given up kautauing. We make up our own minds. It's kind of the modern thing to do.

Manach

galljga1 wrote: »

Yeah, bring back John Charles, all is forgiven. Lets start throwing young girls into slavery again and take their children to be dispensed to 'good' couples. How about raping children? Should we return to that?

There is a lot to forgive "the church" for but until such time as they admit their sins and seek forgiveness, it will not be forthcoming from me.

As opposed to the State's own crimes both here and other ones abroad which made the previous century such a joy to live through. Given the bankrupcy of the state at the time of its foundation and its nationistic posturing that squandered what remain of the monies, it was at to the credit of the Church that it provided some form of institualtion structure to preserve people. Both here and abroad for the immigrants that had to leave this country. Strangely this is never taken as a historical mea culpa from the anti-clericists, a strange case of annesia there especially in light of the numerous apologies given by Church members, in total and by individual members.

galljga1

Manach wrote: »

As opposed to the State's own crimes both here and other ones abroad which made the previous century such a joy to live through. Given the bankrupcy of the state at the time of its foundation and its nationistic posturing that squandered what remain of the monies, it was at to the credit of the Church that it provided some form of institualtion structure to preserve people. Both here and abroad for the immigrants that had to leave this country. Strangely this is never taken as a historical mea culpa from the anti-clericists, a strange case of annesia there especially in light of the numerous apologies given by Church members, in total and by individual members.

Blinkered nonsense.

Manach

galljga1 wrote: »

The thing is, we have given up kautauing. We make up our own minds. It's kind of the modern thing to do.

Given the multiplicities of various competing lobbying groups that determine how public opinion is formed from both judiciation, executive and legislative levels (from my reading focusing on Jurisprudence) that statement is ether incredible naive or ironic.

PopePalpatine

By your logic, we should stop prosecuting abusive parents because they've put a roof over their children's heads and kept them fed and watered.

Manach

galljga1 wrote: »

Blinkered nonsense.

Crushed by that fine retort. Surely the classic rheotorics of the groves of Athens would have hailed such sophistic mastery.

PopePalpatine

Manach wrote: »

Crushed by that fine retort. Surely the classic rheotorics of the groves of Athens would have hailed such sophistic mastery.

Remove the log from your own eye first.

galljga1

Manach wrote: »

Given the multiplicities of various competing lobbying groups that determine how public opinion is formed from both judiciation, executive and legislative levels (from my reading focusing on Jurisprudence) that statement is ether incredible naive or ironic.

It is good to get the opinion of someone so indoctrinated, s(he) cannot contemplate that maybe loosening the stranglehold of the church may just be a progressive step.

Not a NSA agent

PopePalpatine wrote: »

His side gave as good as they got:

He cant look like the victim or blame it on "anti-clericism" so will be ignored.

Im just thankful cultural marxism hasnt been brought in yet.

ziedth

Manach wrote: »

Well, so long as one kowtows to whatever the prevailing orthodoxies (TBD) I'm sure one will get on fine.

One will be just fine thanks,the prevailing orthodoxies at the very least don't have decades of covering up child abuse within thier own organisation and accumlating untold anounts of wealth. if the church ever does fall you can always follow the word of the BBC i guess

alias no.9

Manach wrote: »

Well, so long as one kowtows to whatever the prevailing orthodoxies (TBD) I'm sure one will get on fine.

So your main issue is that catholic dogma is no longer the prevailing orthodoxy?

galljga1

Manach wrote: »

Crushed by that fine retort. Surely the classic rheotorics of the groves of Athens would have hailed such sophistic mastery.

It was an appropriate response to the nonsense you spouted. Although I have been to Athens, it was in the recent past. Unlike you, I live in the now, not in ancient Greece. I doubt you would appreciate some of the practices Plato and his compatriots got up to.

eviltwin

Manach wrote: »

Crushed by that fine retort. Surely the classic rheotorics of the groves of Athens would have hailed such sophistic mastery.

Nothing has changed for you. You are still free to go about your business as you were before yesterday. You're not a victim here. You would think if you can't be happy for gay people and their family you could at least have the good grace to accept the will of the people.

PopePalpatine

I don't think he'd be happy until this country turned into Franco's Spain with a crappier climate.

Manach

galljga1 wrote: »

It is good to get the opinion of someone so indoctrinated, s(he) cannot contemplate that maybe loosening the stranglehold of the church may just be a progressive step.

Progressive means I presume moving in some definiable direction. However without any deseriable roadmap beyond a relativism recycled anti-clerical agenda we might regard the 40 years spend in the desert as a w/e break. At least until the social stresses of such progress to the breakdown of familial societal structures as happening in the UK.

PopePalpatine

Engaging in apologetics whenever pressed about what the RCC has inflicted on this country sounds a lot like "relativism" to me.

galljga1

Manach wrote: »

Progressive means I presume moving in some definiable direction. However without any deseriable roadmap beyond a relativism recycled anti-clerical agenda we might regard the 40 years spend in the desert as a w/e break. At least until the social stresses of such progress to the breakdown of familial societal structures as happening in the UK.

Why do you need a roadmap? You are here for a short time. Ask questions. Live life. Wear sunscreen.

uck51js9zml2yt

PopePalpatine wrote: »

His side gave as good as they got:

So we have a typed up document without any reference to its author attributed to david Quinn.

Manach

If you pardon me, I need now step out of this thread. Given the lack of the Church's power to shape Ireland over the past generation, perhaps there is a bright new dawn being hearld with this vote or perhaps Catholicism, where it once was the English, will continue be a convinient scapegoat for a the failure to reach the progressive paradise.

galljga1

Adriel Unsightly Witchcraft wrote: »

So we have a typed up document without any reference to its author attributed to david Quinn.

Where does it say that?

marienbad

Manach wrote: »

Progressive means I presume moving in some definiable direction. However without any deseriable roadmap beyond a relativism recycled anti-clerical agenda we might regard the 40 years spend in the desert as a w/e break. At least until the social stresses of such progress to the breakdown of familial societal structures as happening in the UK.

Anyone that believes in progress in Ireland had to adopt an anti-clerical agenda . There was no other choice .

campingcarist

JohnBee wrote: »

Not sure if people have heard David Quinn comment on the yes vote but just wondering how Christians feel?

Basically his attitude was that they had an uphill battle, that their tactics failed and that they started their campaign too late.

I found this very patronizing. It almost suggests that the outcome of the referendum, in his view, is that it represents the outcome of the best campaign. To me this is quite small minded of him. Why can he (and Iona) not just accept that this is a sign of the will of the people and that his views (and that of the mothers and fathers group) are minority views that are out of place in 2015?

The will of the people yes; but not the will of God. The same goes for divorce.

henryporter

Adriel Unsightly Witchcraft wrote: »

So we have a typed up document without any reference to its author attributed to david Quinn.

Splitting hairs tbh. We can attribute actions like asking Dil Wickremasinghe who the father of her child was on a public forum to David though, nasty little toe rag that he is.

Stheno

henryporter wrote: »

Splitting hairs tbh. We can attribute actions like asking Dil Wickremasinghe who the father of her child was on a public forum to David though, nasty little toe rag that he is.

But who wrote that letter and to whom?

Penny Tration

Stheno wrote: »

But who wrote that letter and to whom?

Dunno who, it was sent to Una Mullally iirc

galljga1

campingcarist wrote: »

The will of the people yes; but not the will of God. The same goes for divorce.

Many many masses were said in support of a no vote, probably none for a yes vote
Many many people prayed for a no vote, probably a huge amount less for a yes vote.
Yes vote prevailed. God is omnipotent. Logic would suggest that this is the will of God.

henryporter

Whoever wrote it has some serious issues, not just with gay people, but people in general. Una Mulally was the undeserving recipient

henryporter

galljga1 wrote: »

Many many masses were said in support of a no vote, probably none for a yes vote
Many many people prayed for a no vote, probably a huge amount less for a yes vote.
Yes vote prevailed. God is omnipotent. Logic would suggest that this is the will of God.

Hmm, dunno if it's more indicative of the fact that God doesn't actually exist?

mrsoundie

It must be frightening for David Quinn and his ilk. Their world is changing from something comforting (only to themselves) and changing into a world that other find exciting and inviting, where everyone is equal, regardless of colour, creed, race, gender or sexuality.

People are afraid of change. Some more than others.

Not a NSA agent

henryporter wrote: »

Hmm, dunno if it's more indicative of the fact that God doesn't actually exist?

Or if he does he doesnt really care about gay people getting married.

He could have done something so that the yes voters saw the truth and would vote no. Im sure he'll send an earthquake or hurricane to some area thats prone to them to let out his anger on some undeserving foreign children.

Peist2007

campingcarist wrote: »

The will of the people yes; but not the will of God. The same goes for divorce.

Absolutely. Unfortunately for those who believe in and follow the will of God, it aint the only show in town. You're free to follow the will of God yourself, if it gives you comfort in this life then good for you. What you cant do nor expect is that everyone must follow the will of God and it is completely ridiculous to expect the laws of a nation to reflect the will of God. That ship has sailed my friend. The show is over.

As for Quinn, what i find most galling is that he seems to genuinely believe that the yes vote yesterday was down to the yes campaign receiving favouritism of some sort from the media and government, thus influencing the people to vote yes. How delusional can you get? Someone needs to take the man aside and explain to him simply that his views were sidelined because voting yes and thereby giving gay people equal rights in terms of civil marriage WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

eviltwin

I've been wondering about Quinn and Co. Do you think they really felt it was going to be a No? If so it must have come as a real shock to them, I wonder what is going through their minds now and how its going to impact on them going forward.

foggy_lad

galljga1 wrote: »

Many many masses were said in support of a no vote, probably none for a yes vote
Many many people prayed for a no vote, probably a huge amount less for a yes vote.
Yes vote prevailed. God is omnipotent. Logic would suggest that this is the will of God.

Of all the masses and people in attendance we can be fairly sure that a large percentage of the normal catholic massgoers of the country listened to the message from the pulpit and either ignored it completely or decided it was just wrong and voted yes instead of following the church line.

eviltwin

campingcarist wrote: »

The will of the people yes; but not the will of God. The same goes for divorce.

And whose opinion matters more do you think?

Stheno

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

Dunno who, it was sent to Una Mullally iirc

Pretty vile

galljga1

henryporter wrote: »

Hmm, dunno if it's more indicative of the fact that God doesn't actually exist?

Don't go outside today. Lightning predicted in your area.

galljga1

foggy_lad wrote: »

Of all the masses and people in attendance we can be fairly sure that a large percentage of the normal catholic massgoers of the country listened to the message from the pulpit and either ignored it completely or decided it was just wrong and voted yes instead of following the church line.

That is what is so good about this result. People made a conscious caring decision to vote yes as it was the right thing to do. There is hope for this country. I was actually tempted to pop into mass last Sunday to see was there a message from the pulpit but thought better of it.

Allyall

PopePalpatine wrote: »

His side gave as good as they got:

Is that a real letter?
Why is the signature cut out? From reading the post it seems to point the finger anyway.


If it is real that is disgusting. Fairly serious accusation if it isn't.

foggy_lad

galljga1 wrote: »

That is what is so good about this result. People made a conscious caring decision to vote yes as it was the right thing to do. There is hope for this country. I was actually tempted to pop into mass last Sunday to see was there a message from the pulpit but thought better of it.

I see it as people reaffirming their faith in each other and in our own ability to be decent human beings while allowing for the Irish state to move even farther away from the current church and state collaboration.

I see in the near future an Ireland where the church has no control or influence over any state institution or body. It has started already with the church refusing to allow schools be used as polling stations so the state invited other groups and organisations to provide premises for use as polling stations. Voting/polling in any state election or referendum should never again be allowed in any property owned or run by any religious group or organisation.

In the near future I would love to see all national schools and second level schools taken(as compensation) into state ownership and having a non denominational ethos. Separate the church and state fully and completely.

There is still a huge place and a need for the church in Ireland but only as a separate and standalone entity rather than some kind of parasite on the back of the state that sucks a way at the will of the people.