Bible in polling station - acceptable?

zagmund

Does anyone know whether it's acceptable to have a bible sitting on the desk where you get your ballot papers at the polling station? It may well be a requirement (for the officers to swear in) for all I know, I'm just checking.

In previous years I've noticed that people behind the desk had brought along a book to read, but this year when getting my ballot papers I saw that the person had a copy of the new testament with them.

I know it's not *officially* propaganda, but let's just say that it might jog the memory/conscience of the occasional undecided elder voter into voting a certain way.

So, are there guidelines on what can/can't be on the desks? I know they can't just hang out any old poster that they want, but what else is covered?

z

BoJack Horseman

I don't think there is any issue.
Its just a rip-roaring piece of period fiction.

death1234567

No it's not acceptable to have a cult's propaganda material lying around a polling booth but this is Ireland so it's okay.

zagmund wrote: »

It may well be a requirement (for the officers to swear in).

If true that's not acceptable either.

zagmund

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I don't think there is any issue.
Its just a rip-roaring piece of period fiction.

A piece of fiction which has reasonably strong things to say about at least one of the matters being voted on today.

z

happyoutscan

zagmund wrote: »

A piece of fiction which has reasonably strong things to say about at least one of the matters being voted on today.

z

Still fiction.

zagmund

happyoutscan wrote: »

Still fiction.

Still has things to say about the matter being voted on. You could argue that many of the posters & flyers that have been circulating are also fiction, but they aren't acceptable.

z

blindside88

AFAIK if you don't have your polling card or id and no one in the poling station can verify you are who you say you are you can still vote by swearing an oath on the bible that you are who you say you are

Alf Veedersane

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I don't think there is any issue.
Its just a rip-roaring piece of period fiction.

Rip-roaring?

There's just so much pointless waffle in it. Admittedly the parts witrh the fire and the pestilence annd the rage and the divil himself are pretty good, they're just too few and far between for me.

BoJack Horseman

zagmund wrote: »

Still has things to say about the matter being voted on.

I'm confident it has little to say regarding the age of potential presidential candidacy.

To contextualise:

- Its got 3 verses vaguely refering to homosexuality, out of 8,000 verses!
- All 3 were written by a single individual (St Paul) & none ascribable to either God or Jesus, merely the musings of 1 elderly guy.

The bible also expresses no opinion on either the spirit or wording of the constitutional amendment regarding SSM!

Mention it to the polling officer in charge if you see it, but I think its harmless & an overreaction to worry about it...... As you said, it may be for swearing purposes.

BoJack Horseman

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

There's just so much pointless waffle in it. Admittedly the parts witrh the fire and the pestilence annd the rage and the divil himself are pretty good, they're just too few and far between for me.

And the way that every sticky situation was solved by the arrival of giant eagles......

..... No, wait..... That was 'Lord of the Rings'.

Santa Cruz

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I don't think there is any issue.
Its just a rip-roaring piece of period fiction.

SPOILER ALERT. He gets killed in the end

Alf Veedersane

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

And the way that every sticky situation was solved by the arrival of giant eagles......

..... No, wait..... That was 'Lord of the Rings'.

The bible has eagles too.

Or yokes like lions with the wings of an eagle.

Like spider pig only a bit more malevolent.

BoJack Horseman

Santa Cruz wrote: »

SPOILER ALERT.

He gets killed in the end

Fixed for you!

foodaholic

The bible is supplied to all tables. If someone forgets their poll card and/or ID they can swear on the bible as to their ID

There is also a non religious oath people can take

thehamo

Surely the point is not the actualy content of the bible its the context of it being there. Could have a subconcious effect on someone who is still undecided. Also somebody could feel intimidated by it.

Personally I couldn't give a sh*te

Alf Veedersane

I can't imagine the the number of people who'd be going in to vote 'Yes' would be swayed to a 'No' vote by the sight of the bible would be very high.

Riskymove

zagmund wrote: »

Does anyone know whether it's acceptable to have a bible sitting on the desk where you get your ballot papers at the polling station? It may well be a requirement (for the officers to swear in) for all I know, I'm just checking.

as others have pointed out it is a required part of the system for swearing if needed.

Many people think this is out of date but it remains in our legal system. It is not the fault of the people operating polling stations.

I know it's not *officially* propaganda, but let's just say that it might jog the memory/conscience of the occasional undecided elder voter into voting a certain way.

tbh the idea that the mere presence of a bible would make "an elderly" or any other person vote a certain way is pretty much propaganda in itself.

Most people couldn't care less I'm sure

I, like most people I assume, vote in a catholic school. I am confronted by statues of Mary and Jesus as I enter the school and there are other religious pictures etc. None of these things influence me or bother me.

nc19

zagmund wrote:

A piece of fiction which has reasonably strong things to say about at least one of the matters being voted on today.

Twilight is a piece of fiction that has strong things to say also.......

Berserker

Of course it is acceptable. To not allow it there would be an inequality towards those who believe in it.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Maybe we should have a big poster up with the Preamble the Constitution

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/en/constitution/

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

We, the people of Éire,

Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,

And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,

Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

Because a lot of people are under the impression that the Constitution is a secular document.

seamus

Yeah, it's definitely a practice that needs to be updated. Swearing on a bible is not a good method of ascertaining someone's identity, and is wide open to voter fraud. In fact one could say it encourages voter fraud by making it obvious how to commit it.

zagmund

Riskymove wrote: »

tbh the idea that the mere presence of a bible would make "an elderly" or any other person vote a certain way is pretty much propaganda in itself.

It could well be propaganda on my part, or on your part, but that's fine because we are not running a polling station so we are free to propagandise as we see fit.

From some of the more sane comments above it appears that it's required so that some people can swear on it to assert their identity - this is a valid explanation and it makes sense to me. I just hadn't noticed it being present for other votes.

z

Abihsot

A bit of an over reaction at this stage. I assume people who have come out and vote have made their decision and won't be swayed by it. Just leave it go.

overshoot

Berserker wrote: »

Of course it is acceptable. To not allow it there would be an inequality towards those who believe in it.

as long as we also have the Qu'ran/buddist scripts/bible with the new testament ripped out for the Jews (Tanakh)/Hindi scripts and a boxset of Star Wars for the few Jedis then all will be equal!

How is it an inequality? you are voting on a civil matter. It should have nothing to do with religion. Swearing on a bible as to your identity is a weak point at it is only relevant to those who actually hold it as their sacred text. It only becomes an inequality when you represent one portion of society.

Dinner

The Bible comes with the ballot box, and every polling station as one. As was mentioned by someone else, it can be used by an individual to swear an oath of identity if required.

There is also a non-religious oath that can be taken if someone doesn't want to swear on the bible.

Yes, it's ridiculous to have it. But it's not a conspiracy, or an attempt to get someone to vote against particular way. It's the same as it is for every election and referendum held in this country.

Wanderer78

no

Riskymove

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/why-are-there-bibles-in-polling-stations-1.2222157

Berserker

overshoot wrote: »

Swearing on a bible as to your identity is a weak point at it is only relevant to those who actually hold it as their sacred text. It only becomes an inequality when you represent one portion of society

By removing the Bible you are not allowing the subsection of society who consider the Bible to be an important document, to exercise their right to use it to validate their identity at polling stations. To act equally in this case, you give people who wish to validate their identity using the Bible the option to do so by having one presenting and you give those who do not view the Bible as important another method to do so.

overshoot

Berserker wrote: »

By removing the Bible you are not allowing the subsection of society who consider the Bible to be an important document, to exercise their right to use it to validate their identity at polling stations. To act equally in this case, you give people who wish to validate their identity using the Bible the option to do so by having one presenting and you give those who do not view the Bible as important another method to do so.

thus my point, if you want equality, you appease all religions or none.
Why should you (especially if its a right - when did that happen) have a bible and a muslim cant have a Qu'ran?
if the non religious method is fine for non christians it should be fine for christians too.

robinph

So will it be acceptable to have the bible there when the referendum is held in the future to remove the bits about god from the preable of the constitution? It would surely count as being propaganda for one side in that instance.

Mrs OBumble

Riskymove wrote: »

I, like most people I assume, vote in a catholic school. I am confronted by statues of Mary and Jesus as I enter the school and there are other religious pictures etc. None of these things influence me or bother me.

They might even inspire you to be merciful and compassionate in casting your vote, if you're you're of the more average-Irish-Catholic persuasion rather than the hierarchical sort.



'Tis an interesting thought though: should a referendum vote really be taken in the premises of an organisation which has expressed strong views on the topic being voted on. I guess we'll hear more of this if the no'es win!

FreudianSlippers

Santa Cruz wrote: »

SPOILER ALERT. He gets killed in the end

Use spoiler tags, I'm still not finished the first book!

FreudianSlippers

robinph wrote: »

So will it be acceptable to have the bible there when the referendum is held in the future to remove the bits about god from the preable of the constitution? It would surely count as being propaganda for one side in that instance.

I will demand a bowl of pasta be placed on each table, for I have been touched by His Noodly Appendage.

Ramen.

Berserker

overshoot wrote: »

thus my point, if you want equality, you appease all religions or none.
Why should you (especially if its a right - when did that happen) have a bible and a muslim cant have a Qu'ran?
if the non religious method is fine for non christians it should be fine for christians too.

I can't accept that last sentence. Turn that logic around. If the Christian method is fine for Christians, who according to the last census in this country make up a sizable majority of the population then should it be fine for non-Christians? Is that ok?

I totally agree that Muslims should have a copy of the Qu'ran present etc. I personally wouldn't swear on a bible in a polling station and I don't even have a copy of it in my house but as someone who genuinely wants equality for all, I recognize and respect the right of Christians, Muslims etc to use their respective holy book in polling stations.

zagmund

Berserker wrote: »

I can't accept that last sentence. Turn that logic around. If the Christian method is fine for Christians, who according to the last census in this country make up a sizable majority of the population then should it be fine for non-Christians? Is that ok?

I totally agree that Muslims should have a copy of the Qu'ran present etc. I personally wouldn't swear on a bible in a polling station and I don't even have a copy of it in my house but as someone who genuinely wants equality for all, I recognize and respect the right of Christians, Muslims etc to use their respective holy book in polling stations.

I've no problem with it being there in the general vicinity. I have a problem with it being on the desk as you are being given your ballot papers. If someone needs one to swear on - then take it out and give it to them to swear on and then put it away again.

z

HandsomeDan

It's an obvious nonsense. Needs to gotten rid of. No I'D no vote. Simple.

barretsimpson

Riskymove wrote: »

as others have pointed out it is a required part of the system for swearing if needed.

Many people think this is out of date but it remains in our legal system. It is not the fault of the people operating polling stations.



tbh the idea that the mere presence of a bible would make "an elderly" or any other person vote a certain way is pretty much propaganda in itself.

Most people couldn't care less I'm sure

I, like most people I assume, vote in a catholic school. I am confronted by statues of Mary and Jesus as I enter the school and there are other religious pictures etc. None of these things influence me or bother me.

so why go on about them ?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

robinph wrote: »

So will it be acceptable to have the bible there when the referendum is held in the future to remove the bits about god from the preable of the constitution? It would surely count as being propaganda for one side in that instance.

That's a fair point, but presumably it would have been there when people were voting in 1973 to remove the references to the "special position" of the Catholic Church and references to other denominations.

Indeed, presumably many people cast their vote on that occasion in our overwhelmingly State-funded RC National Schools, passing a few decidedly Catholic religious symbols on the way.

But, as it stands, we don't have a secular Constitution. We have a Constitution that invokes the Holy Trinity as the only source of valid human authority.

Bodder1

I voted in St Mary's BNS, Rathfarnham this morning. I was shocked to see a bible placed just inside the door in a very prominent position on a table surrounded by a large statue of the Virgin Mary and fresh flowers.
It was set up like a shrine with the bible as the centrepiece. Everyone who votes there today will pass it. Given the subject matter we are voting on and the steadfast position of the Catholic Church on the issue then this religious display was HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE. I understand that the bible is meant to be on site at the polling station for oath swearing but to display it like a shrine for ALL to see before they vote is outrageous! The polling station is supposed to be a neutral venue no matter whether its a Catholic school or not. They could easily have the bible in a box somewhere to be taken out when needed but to display it in such a conspicuous manner adorned with statue and flowers is disgraceful!

barretsimpson

Bodder1 wrote: »

I voted in St Mary's BNS, Rathfarnham this morning. I was shocked to see a bible placed just inside the door in a very prominent position on a table surrounded by a large statue of the Virgin Mary and fresh flowers.
It was set up like a shrine with the bible as the centrepiece. Everyone who votes there today will pass it. Given the subject matter we are voting on and the steadfast position of the Catholic Church on the issue then this religious display was HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE. I understand that the bible is meant to be on site at the polling station for oath swearing but to display it like a shrine for ALL to see before they vote is outrageous! The polling station is supposed to be a neutral venue no matter whether its a Catholic school or not. They could easily have the bible in a box somewhere to be taken out when needed but to display it in such a conspicuous manner adorned with statue and flowers is disgraceful!

About as relevant as Buddha statue to me. If they can have no effect on anyone why are you so bothered ? Something is not adding up here.

FreudianSlippers

barretsimpson wrote: »

About as relevant as Buddha statue to me. If they can have no effect on anyone why are you so bothered ? Something is not adding up here.

Hello new poster!

barretsimpson

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Hello new poster!

Hey look ! suddenly I'm more important than the subject !

Breadwoman

Bodder1 wrote: »

I voted in St Mary's BNS, Rathfarnham this morning. I was shocked to see a bible placed just inside the door in a very prominent position on a table surrounded by a large statue of the Virgin Mary and fresh flowers.
It was set up like a shrine with the bible as the centrepiece. Everyone who votes there today will pass it. Given the subject matter we are voting on and the steadfast position of the Catholic Church on the issue then this religious display was HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE. I understand that the bible is meant to be on site at the polling station for oath swearing but to display it like a shrine for ALL to see before they vote is outrageous! The polling station is supposed to be a neutral venue no matter whether its a Catholic school or not. They could easily have the bible in a box somewhere to be taken out when needed but to display it in such a conspicuous manner adorned with statue and flowers is disgraceful!

You went to a Catholic school, that's like saying i went to a circus and they were clowns and magicians there and I couldn't believe it, what do you expect? what's all this anti Christian hatred about, if there were quran's on the table, would ye care or dare to question it? this is a non issue

mackerski

Berserker wrote: »

By removing the Bible you are not allowing the subsection of society who consider the Bible to be an important document, to exercise their right to use it to validate their identity at polling stations.

The flaw in your reasoning is that a bible doesn't validate their identity. It just allows them to vote without validating it.

RainyDay

Bodder1 wrote: »

I voted in St Mary's BNS, Rathfarnham this morning. I was shocked to see a bible placed just inside the door in a very prominent position on a table surrounded by a large statue of the Virgin Mary and fresh flowers.
It was set up like a shrine with the bible as the centrepiece. Everyone who votes there today will pass it. Given the subject matter we are voting on and the steadfast position of the Catholic Church on the issue then this religious display was HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE. I understand that the bible is meant to be on site at the polling station for oath swearing but to display it like a shrine for ALL to see before they vote is outrageous! The polling station is supposed to be a neutral venue no matter whether its a Catholic school or not. They could easily have the bible in a box somewhere to be taken out when needed but to display it in such a conspicuous manner adorned with statue and flowers is disgraceful!

Meanwhile, just down the road in Ballinteer, as I walked through the school (polling station) car park, I spotted and heard the Church prayer group at their outside grotto giving it all with the Ave Maria's, but if I try to put up a poster at that location, I'll be breaching the law.

Breadwoman wrote: »

You went to a Catholic school, that's like saying i went to a circus and they were clowns and magicians there and I couldn't believe it, what do you expect? what's all this anti Christian hatred about, if there were quran's on the table, would ye care or dare to question it? this is a non issue

I'm a pastafarian, so I expect my holy colander to be on the table at the next election for me to swear on. You're OK with that, right?

murphaph

All this religious mumbo jumbo needs removing from the constitution.

uck51js9zml2yt

blindside88 wrote: »

AFAIK if you don't have your polling card or id and no one in the poling station can verify you are who you say you are you can still vote by swearing an oath on the bible that you are who you say you are

You can also affirm if you are non religious of of another religion other than christian or if your Christian beliefs don't allow you swear on a bible.

Jim2007

overshoot wrote: »

thus my point, if you want equality, you appease all religions or none.

It is not the simple in the UK and Ireland because we have no definitive way of identifying people - all we can do is hope that when asked to take an oath/affirmation that people are sincere in doing so...

The better solution would be that we should establish a proper national identity system as it would reduce the cost of administration in a lot of situations - just like they use in most mainland European countries.

Bodder1

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is not the simple in the UK and Ireland because we have no definitive way of identifying people - all we can do is hope that when asked to take an oath/affirmation that people are sincere in doing so...

The better solution would be that we should establish a proper national identity system as it would reduce the cost of administration in a lot of situations - just like they use in most mainland European countries.

Don't be daft!! You polling card says BRING ID! NO ID....NO VOTE!! SIMPLE!

Delicia

The fact that there was a copy of the New Testament - not just on one but on every table - in the room did not bother me. If our collective vote as a country can be swayed by the sight of the bible then we have a long way to go. What bothered me was that I have never seen this before at any election/referendum so just exactly who thought that this was required today & what was their reasoning behind it? I don't believe swearing ID for one minute - you either have a voting card & provide photo ID or you don't...

Hotblack Desiato

Santa Cruz wrote: »

SPOILER ALERT. He gets killed in the end

It's set up perfectly for a sequel, but it's been stuck in development hell for the last 2000 years.

Ruby Fit Bark wrote: »

You can also affirm if you are non religious of of another religion other than christian or if your Christian beliefs don't allow you swear on a bible.

Why should anyone have to disclose what their religion is, or that they have no religion, in order to perform a function of the state ?

In a criminal trial, choosing to affirm rather than swear (or, choosing to swear on the 'wrong' book) could prejudice a jury against you.

Or even prejudice a judge - just today I read about that boxer John Joe Nevin's assault trial, the judge described him as 'a good Christian', the judge should neither know nor care what religion he is or is not. It is of absolutely no relevance to guilt or sentencing in a criminal trial. It is disgraceful that a judge would bring this up. Can a non-Christian, 'bad Christian' :rolleyes: or non-believer be confident that they will be treated fairly by this judge??