Kids in commercial vehicles

P_Cash

Kids in front of commercial vehicle, can u get points?

What's the law on this?

CiniO

P_Cash wrote: »

Kids in front of commercial vehicle, can u get points?

What's the law on this?

There's no laws in Ireland prohibiting kids or infants to travel in front seats of any vehicle...

All you need to do is to ensure they are strapped in appropriate child seat.
And in case of rear facing child seats, that airbag is not active.

Gumbo

CiniO wrote: »

There's no laws in Ireland prohibiting kids or infants to travel in front seats of any vehicle...

All you need to do is to ensure they are strapped in appropriate child seat.
And in case of rear facing child seats, that airbag is not active.

+1

You can leave the rotunda hospital tomorrow with your new born and put them straight into the front seat of a transit if you want. As long as they are in the appropriate seat for the weight/age, and the airbag is switched off.

Nody

CiniO wrote: »

There's no laws in Ireland prohibiting kids or infants to travel in front seats of any vehicle...

All you need to do is to ensure they are strapped in appropriate child seat.
And in case of rear facing child seats, that airbag is not active.

Except commercial vehicles are to only be used for that; the business so unless the OP works at a creche chances are it's quite relevant...

Dtp1979

kceire wrote: »

+1

You can leave the rotunda hospital tomorrow with your new born and put them straight into the front seat of a transit if you want. As long as they are in the appropriate seat for the weight/age, and the airbag is switched off.

Are you sure? I thought a while back guards were warning us that's it's not allowed? I bring my old child in my van but I'm usually weary of it. Is there any issue with insurance?

CiniO

kceire wrote: »

+1

You can leave the rotunda hospital tomorrow with your new born and put them straight into the front seat of a transit if you want. As long as they are in the appropriate seat for the weight/age, and the airbag is switched off.

Airbag only needs to be switched off for rear facing seats, which generally are only seats for small children up to 9kg and about 12 months of age.

r3nu4l

I was going to ask about this actually as in the last week I've been dropping my daughter off at her school (very rural) and noticed that some of the Mummy's are using what are quite clearly commercial vehicles.

Dtp1979

r3nu4l wrote: »

I was going to ask about this actually as in the last week I've been dropping my daughter off at her school (very rural) and noticed that some of the Mummy's are using what are quite clearly commercial vehicles.

And still can't reverse them :pac:

Bpmull

r3nu4l wrote: »

I was going to ask about this actually as in the last week I've been dropping my daughter off at her school (very rural) and noticed that some of the Mummy's are using what are quite clearly commercial vehicles.

Well they are technically breaking the law but realistically how many people have actually been done for this offence Id say not many most likely the worst that would happen is you get told off you'd want to get a very bad gaurd on a very bad day for him to fine/ summons you for it.

Tony Beetroot

Bpmull wrote: »

Well they are technically breaking the law but realistically how many people have actually been done for this offence Id say not many most likely the worst that would happen is you get told off you'd want to get a very bad gaurd on a very bad day for him to fine/ summons you for it.

What law are they breaking?

Bpmull

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

What law are they breaking?

A commercially taxed vehicle must only be used for commerical use not social domestic pleasure. If it is taxed privately it can be used as a car for any purpose but I mean finding a commercial vehicle taxed privately is a rare thing. Anyway as I said the chance of being caught are tiny but still possible.

jlm29

All the rules and regs are on the rsa website. I read somewhere recently that if found transporting an infant in a rear facing seat where there is an active airbag, points and fine can be given.
Otherwise, once in the right seat, the front seat is grand

CiniO

Bpmull wrote: »

A commercially taxed vehicle must only be used for commerical use not social domestic pleasure.

That's not an answer to question which was asked - "What law are they breaking?"

I claim there is no law stating what you said above. If you believe otherwise, I'd be delighted to see it.

Tony Beetroot

Bpmull wrote: »

A commercially taxed vehicle must only be used for commerical use not social domestic pleasure. If it is taxed privately it can be used as a car for any purpose but I mean finding a commercial vehicle taxed privately is a rare thing. Anyway as I said the chance of being caught are tiny but still possible.

That is a politicians answer.

Bpmull

CiniO wrote: »

That's not an answer to question which was asked - "What law are they breaking?"

I claim there is no law stating what you said above. If you believe otherwise, I'd be delighted to see it.

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

That is a politicians answer.

I know people have argued that there are loopholes but ultimately by filling out this form which you have to to tax a vehicle commercially if you then use it for SDP you have made a false declaration to a garda which is illegal. Anyway I'm not trying to argue for or against it.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,23874,en.pdf

There is also a law which states that vehicles should always be taxed at the highest applicable rate so a van used for commercial and private use if the private tax is higher that's whats used.

Nobody really cares about using commercial vehicles for private use. Out my way nearly every house has a commercial of some form or other and private use is an everyday thing for them all with loads only ever being used privately and for commuting. Plenty of crew cabs being used for family cars etc also, you would be looked at like you had 10 heads of you taxed a commercial vehicle privately (and thus spend way more on tax).

Tony Beetroot

Bpmull wrote: »

There is also a law which states that vehicles should always be taxed at the highest applicable rate so a van used for commercial and private use if the private tax is higher that's whats used.

No there isn't.

CiniO

Bpmull wrote: »

I know people have argued that there are loopholes but ultimately by filling out this form which you have to to tax a vehicle commercially if you then use it for SDP you have made a false declaration to a garda which is illegal. Anyway I'm not trying to argue for or against it.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,23874,en.pdf

Indeed, if someone signed such declaration, then usage of vehicle for private purposes is out of the question.
Thing is - what is the base for motortax offices to request customers to sign such declaration? As there surely isn't any law covering that.

There is also a law which states that vehicles should always be taxed at the highest applicable rate so a van used for commercial and private use if the private tax is higher that's whats used.

Another interesting thing - could we have a link please?

galwaytt

Bpmull wrote: »

I know people have argued that there are loopholes but ultimately by filling out this form which you have to to tax a vehicle commercially if you then use it for SDP you have made a false declaration to a garda which is illegal. Anyway I'm not trying to argue for or against it.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,23874,en.pdf

There is also a law which states that vehicles should always be taxed at the highest applicable rate so a van used for commercial and private use if the private tax is higher that's whats used.

I'd like to see the law compelling you to make that declaration.

Gumbo

CiniO wrote: »

Airbag only needs to be switched off for rear facing seats, which generally are only seats for small children up to 9kg and about 12 months of age.

Hence the link to the Rotunda Hospital and new borns

Tony Beetroot

Pity there isn't a law to stop insubstancial laws being talked about.

pippip

galwaytt wrote: »

I'd like to see the law compelling you to make that declaration.

CiniO wrote: »

Indeed, if someone signed such declaration, then usage of vehicle for private purposes is out of the question.
Thing is - what is the base for motortax offices to request customers to sign such declaration? As there surely isn't any law covering that.

You have to sign it in order to commercial tax a vehicle for the first time. Its one of the requirements from the Motor Tax office.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_tax_rates.html


IF you did happen to get caught you also could have revenue after you for BIK, its not much you'd owe them but possibly more hassle.

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, what's the position on being on the way to a job and dropping the kids off at school?
Surely that would come more under the employer's policy on carrying passengers rather than commercial vs private usage as defined by the state?

pippip

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, what's the position on being on the way to a job and dropping the kids off at school?
Surely that would come more under the employer's policy on carrying passengers rather than commercial vs private usage as defined by the state?

This is where it is a stupid rule but your still using it for personal use. I think I read somewhere that commuting to and from work is actually classed as personal use, doesn't fall under commercial tax use.

Tony Beetroot

pippip wrote: »

This is where it is a stupid rule but your still using it for personal use. I think I read somewhere that commuting to and from work is actually classed as personal use, doesn't fall under commercial tax use.

Isn't going to lunch during the day personal use also.

pippip

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Isn't going to lunch during the day personal use also.

Possibly, haven't seen anything mentioning lunch journeys?

MikeCairo78

Most commercial vehicles, in the main vans etc, can be used for Social Domestic &Pleasure purposes - it will not the same on the certificate.

dr.fuzzenstein

pippip wrote: »

This is where it is a stupid rule but your still using it for personal use. I think I read somewhere that commuting to and from work is actually classed as personal use, doesn't fall under commercial tax use.

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Isn't going to lunch during the day personal use also.

Awesome. Does that mean if a Gard is having a bad day, he could potentially nab you for driving to your first job or outside the Spar or Centra when you're getting a sandwich?
That's if there are any laws preventing this, rather than company policy on carrying passengers and personal use.
When I had a work van, I simply didn't care, went to the beach, shopping on the weekends, up to Belfast when the Ikea opened there, going out and so on and so forth. No Gard ever said a thing, I guess because it's so hard to nail down what is allowed and what's not? Would be typical Ireland, don't bother your hole coming up with useable laws, just quickly whip 'em up and go to the pub. Now it's the problem of the Gardai and the courts.

pippip

MikeCairo78 wrote: »

Most commercial vehicles, in the main vans etc, can be used for Social Domestic &Pleasure purposes - it will not the same on the certificate.

But thats the insurance side, were talking tax. Someone on here said SD&P has always been on their commercial insurance.

Tony Beetroot

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Awesome. Does that mean if a Gard is having a bad day, he could potentially nab you for driving to your first job or outside the Spar or Centra when you're getting a sandwich?

He can act the big man and nab you but for what is the question?

pippip

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Awesome. Does that mean if a Gard is having a bad day, he could potentially nab you for driving to your first job or outside the Spar or Centra when you're getting a sandwich?

In theory yes they can, thats the stupid thing about it.

In reality you are never going to be done for it unless you have really pissed them off and they add it in while you are being done for something else like speeding or a crash.

I'm not defending the law in anyway, its ridiculous, I just find it annoying how many of these threads have appeared recently relating to commercial tax where people are stating there is NO law you are breaking and its perfectly legal.

mickmmc

What about insurance?

From memory many years ago a Bread van was
involved in accident at 8pm on Saturday. The insurance
company refuse to pay out on the claim. The Bread company
could not prove that employee was using the van for commercial
purposes.

I saw a sticker on a utility company van driver's door a few years ago:
"Carrying of passengers in this vehicle will lead to dismissal"

pippip

mickmmc wrote: »

What about insurance?

From memory many years ago a Bread van was
involved in accident at 8pm on Saturday. The insurance
company refuse to pay out on the claim. The Bread company
could not prove that employee was using the van for commercial
purposes.

I saw a sticker on a utility company van driver's door a few years ago:
"Carrying of passengers in this vehicle will lead to dismissal"

This is where there are probably different commercial insurance packages. Some would have more restrictions than others. My mother in laws partner has an eircom van and he can never use it for anything personal, and is never allowed passengers unless Eircom employees.

You can still have a commercial vehicle with commercial insurance but taxed private so you can legally use it for SD&P.

dr.fuzzenstein

pippip wrote: »

In theory yes they can, thats the stupid thing about it.

In reality you are never going to be done for it unless you have really pissed them off and they add it in while you are being done for something else like speeding or a crash.

I'm not defending the law in anyway, its ridiculous, I just find it annoying how many of these threads have appeared recently relating to commercial tax where people are stating there is NO law you are breaking and its perfectly legal.

I can't seem to find any reference to the specific law that would prevent carrying passengers in an N1 type vehicle. Just curious.

edit:
I have a feeling that might be a separate issue from personal use (weekends and so forth)

pippip

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I can't seem to find any reference to the specific law that would prevent carrying passengers in an N1 type vehicle. Just curious.

Sorry, should that have quoted my last post rather than that one?

If so, I'm not saying there is a law, just saying the different insurance packages would have different restrictions, in a fleet the size of Eircoms, it probably saves them a fair amount.

But on a side note, the person was allowed keep his eircom van at his house. I'm assuming because he had to log into work on the system for his first call so in theory if you are paid from the moment you leave your house your not commuting anywhere so commercial tax would work in that situation.

Tony Beetroot

pippip wrote: »

If so, I'm not saying there is a law, just saying the different insurance packages would have different restrictions, in a fleet the size of Eircoms, it probably saves them a fair amount.

Using an eircom van for mass and going to weddings wouldn't go down well with most wives.

dr.fuzzenstein

pippip wrote: »

Sorry, should that have quoted my last post rather than that one?

If so, I'm not saying there is a law, just saying the different insurance packages would have different restrictions, in a fleet the size of Eircoms, it probably saves them a fair amount.

But on a side note, the person was allowed keep his eircom van at his house. I'm assuming because he had to log into work on the system for his first call so in theory if you are paid from the moment you leave your house your not commuting anywhere so commercial tax would work in that situation.

Not you in particular, but a some people seem to suggest that the law specifically prevents passengers being carried, I don't think it does.
As for taking the van on a Sunday pleasure cruise or going to the pub/on holidays, that could be different, but I never cared.
When I had a van, officially my work would start when I arrived at my first job or the office or depot to pick up supplies/get coffee. I guess that varies from company to company.

Markcheese

Think they're a lot stricter in the uk - if an employee takes a company van home the workplace must be able to prove he's "on call" and not just commuting -
I'd be feiced as I go shopping - collect kids from school and anything else I think of - mind you nobody would really drive my van for pleasure

dr.fuzzenstein

Markcheese wrote: »

Think they're a lot stricter in the uk - if an employee takes a company van home the workplace must be able to prove he's "on call" and not just commuting -
I'd be feiced as I go shopping - collect kids from school and anything else I think of - mind you nobody would really drive my van for pleasure

It's what it's there for! Drop the kids off on the way, swing by the shops on the way home and inbetween go to the post office, the bank, etc...
Imagine now constable plod trying to figure out what job you've been to, where you're going, is it OK to go the the bank on the way, are you allowed to go to McDonalds on the way home? is that a good use of time for him or the guy being stopped or the company he works for? Silly.
I understand that you shouldn't head off to a 48 hour rave with 17 friends in the back over the weekend, but trying to stop people to do buy a book of stamps inbetween calls is just being sh*tty for the sake of being sh*tty, a symptom of being so obsessed with rules and regulations in modern day Europe it would make the Nazis blush.
I always say it, there will come a time in Europe where we will have to fill out 17 forms 2 weeks in advance to be allowed to wipe our arse, that will be the day when China and India (who don't particularly care about a 50000 page document of rules and regulations dealing with the width of toilet paper) will spend 2% of their GDP to buy us all out and make us their bitches. Just for fun. Because they can. Just my Monday rant.

sword1

The law on this was altered to bring it in line with the rest of Europe, so I presume it is similar on the continent, there is no way there will be a clampdown on it with a general election on the horizon

dr.fuzzenstein

sword1 wrote: »

The law on this was altered to bring it in line with the rest of Europe, so I presume it is similar on the continent, there is no way there will be a clampdown on it with a general election on the horizon

That's the difference between Ireland and the rest of Europe, we have the same laws on paper, but it's just for a bit of a laugh.

MikeCairo78

How it is treated from a tax perspective - ie benefit in kind and how tightly that is regulated is completely different to whether you are allowed. The insurance follows the law, and as such all vans etc that can carry passengers will allow for social domestic and pleasure. As long as you are following legal requirements re passengers then there is no problem.

sword1

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That's the difference between Ireland and the rest of Europe, we have the same laws on paper, but it's just for a bit of a laugh.

The law was altered to allow n1 classed vehicles to be registered commercial, so I presume if anyone is considering getting one of these vehicles work away as they are unlikely to change it back in the near future and a rule where you are not allowed drive a vehicle home from work or drop your kids off at school is ridiculous and unenforceable

donegal.

pippip wrote: »

This is where it is a stupid rule but your still using it for personal use. I think I read somewhere that commuting to and from work is actually classed as personal use, doesn't fall under commercial tax use.

when i went to the guards to get the form signed i asked him about dropping the kids to school on the to work.
he asked me if i didnt use the van to drop the kids off, could i go to work?
no, therefore you're using your van for work.