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DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread

18990929495272

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 271 ✭✭Kander


    Hey peeps, just got a question for ya's.

    My current effort I'd like to run the marathon at is 20ish sec slower per km than my optimist finishing time. Is it possible to get faster by that amount in the time left or is it worth being more realistic.

    Tl;dr Can I get faster by 20 per km in the time we have left?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    Kander wrote: »
    Hey peeps, just got a question for ya's.

    My current effort I'd like to run the marathon at is 20ish sec slower per km than my optimist finishing time. Is it possible to get faster by that amount in the time left or is it worth being more realistic.

    Tl;dr Can I get faster by 20 per km in the time we have left?

    Hi Kander, the more information we have about your running background, the better. There are some questions at the end of the very first post in this thread and any other information you think relevant would be helpful. You're a triathlete? Anything is possible so ;) but a bit more context incl marathon target time and current training paces/frequency would be useful. TIA :)*







    *Just so's ya know, we deal in both currencies here but the imperialists are more noisy numerous ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭Toulouse


    I can definitely empathise with wanting to eat all around me and I have really bad cravings for cake and buttercream :(

    I've definitely been hungrier than usual despite upping the amount of food that I eat so this morning I'm trying something new.

    Instead of my normal porridge, chia and banana this morning I had smoked mackerel and an egg (with hot pepper sauce) and a pint of water. Made it the whole way to 11am break without feeling hungry which is a first since I've started training. For break, instead of fruit or a cereal bar, I've taken one scoop of protein (chocolate flavour to help with the cravings) and I'll have my normal lunch (wholewheat wrap with chicken and spinach).

    Then about 3:30 I'll have a banana before my run. I have some dark chocolate stashed but am hoping that upping the protein will help with the cravings and hunger pangs. Will still stick to porridge on mornings before LSRs though but just not every morning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    araic88 wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply dubgal :-)

    Feeling a little out of place, I was surprised to read you recommend being able to run 20 miles by June for the DCM but I'll not run away yet ;-)

    About me:
    1.I did a small amount of running a few years ago and got back to it properly last Spring. I had never entered races before (had previously been a run/walker just to enjoy it. Last April I ran my first 5k race, in June my first 10k, in October first 10 mile and in December my first half marathon. So I'm pretty new to it! I've since done another half marathon & 10 mile race and the idea of a full marathon fascinates me.
    2.5k PB was 25.25 a few weeks ago, my second half marathon was quicker by 10 mins than my first, but still a super-slow (eh "steady") 2.17. I hope to get under 2.10 next month but had been ill before the last one so couldn't train as much as hoped.
    3.Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training ? (No problem if you do) No usually not.
    4.How much training do you currently do incl cross training? Distances, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
    At the moment, a long run at the weekend (adding a mile a week for the next few weeks, then two half marathon races in September, aiming to get to 20-22 miles by end of September). Then 3 days during the week, an 'easy' one of about 5 miles, another of similar distance but focusing on sprints/intervals, and another incorporating hills. I do one 'cross training' day of spinning, walking or pilates but try to do some of the pilates exercises every day.
    5.How many days a week do you run only? 4 but think I should increase it to 5?
    6.What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
    Mostly just complete it un-injured and not horribly put off!! I was trying for a time in my first half and it was a disaster. I missed the time by loads and struggled the whole way. I'd be pleased with a time between 4.40 and 4.59 ;-)
    7.What marathon programme are you following/intending to use?
    Sounds ridiculous but what got me into running last year was the book "Run Fat Bitch! Run!" and I've modified the marathon plan in that a bit.

    Hi araic88, welcome aboard :) Chops is right, 20 miles total mileage per week is ideal before starting the plan, not a lsr of 20 miles. So you're grand!

    Well done on your consistent progress over the last year and of course on your latest 5k pb.

    I wouldn't recommend two halves in September. The risk (race) versus reward (gain in training) is simply not worth it at this stage in marathon training. The taper and recovery is too much of an interrupt to your training, plus you will be aiming to achieve your highest mileage lsrs in this month too, so just not worth it. Pick one (preferably the earlier one) and focus on that.

    Your training should be race specific: i.e., you will be running a long 26 miles on relatively flat road surface so your training should reflect this. You don't really need intervals and hill sprints at this stage, long slow miles will get you over the line. We have a few new novices this week so I will link to all relevant posts this evening but for now, a quick look over the links in my post above to JMSE covers the theory behind the long slow miles in training.

    Have a look at the HHN1 plan in the google docs sheet, I think it would be perfect for you. Four days is grand, five days even better. You could even include some strides or hill sprints every now and then as you are used to them, but not at the expense of the miles (these are what will get you over the line on the 26th).
    Best of luck and fire away with any questions. The team and all the novices uave an answer to anything you might need to know!

    HHN1
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X4ruB5STPrJP1UXONBsWM-WTXFJQreeZbHiO6XHxohc/htmlview#

    Strides
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96006214&postcount=1087

    Hill sprints
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96159713&postcount=1605


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    Am off out for the afternoon (being whisked off to Powerscourt) so week T-11 (holy feck not long now til single figure countdown :eek: ) post will be along much later (tonight). In the meantime, for our new novices - welcome! - and anyone else wants to do a bit of homework, have a look over the following posts:

    T-17 Now is the time
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96051326&postcount=1207

    T-16 slowing down to go faster
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96145807&postcount=1565

    T-15
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96220837&postcount=1790

    T-14 links blank :(
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96308236&postcount=2037

    T-13
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96395413&postcount=2294

    T-12 back to the start
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96485492&postcount=2534


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 271 ✭✭Kander


    Okay so a little more detail.

    This is my first year doing set programs for training for both Triathlon earlier in the year and now for running only. I'm running 5 days a week doing 60km and recovery week at 30km. My conditioning work is non existent at the moment sadly.

    I did Dcm 2014 and got a PB of 4hr:30 and that optimistic goal is 3hr:15. I know this seems like a massive drop but I did have a great year of training for tri's so I lost a lot weight and improved cardio. Currently at 77kg and 19% body fat.

    I know the 3hr:30 is possible for me but I don't know if I should or if it's wise to push for that little bit more.

    I'm still full of newbie questions though cos I've come on so much in the last year and lucked out with the consistent training but I'll admit lacking the experience on the finer details. :o

    I've never actually used imperial measurements please don't hate me :P


    *Edit on this plan


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭ZV Yoda


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    You're aiming for a sub-4 hour marathon (around 9m/mi pace) which means your lsrs should be between 9:45 and 10:30m/mi pace. You say 'you can't' go slower, but you can.
    Marathon training isn't about training fast to race fast. That = burnout. You won't recruit the slow twitch fibres Myles Splitz refers to and you're not graduallly extending your lactic threshold as the Hadd article discusses. The Hadd article is linked to in Clearlier's post. Please read it, it makes so much sense. It's long but is really accessible.

    Marathon training is all about discipline and if you apply that discipline to slow down in training, you will succeed. It's that simple. (Counter-intuitive I know, but still simple ;) )

    I've definitely bought into the "slow down" mantra. I'm managing to slow down, but I'd like to double check my pacing if that's OK. Apologies, I work in new money, so bear with me on min/km!

    I'm doing HHN1 & also targeting a sub 4hr DCM. Per above, that's 9 min/mile or 5:35/km race pace.

    So this means I should be running my lsr between 9:45-10:30 (or 6:00-6:30 min/km)? I'm averaging lsr around 5:45/km (previously it was 5:20), so I need to slow down to at least 6/km. That'll be my target pace for my 12 mile / 20k this week-end.

    How should I pace my non lsr runs? Based on feedback here, I usually run at conversational pace (anywhere from 5:20-5:40/km). Once in while, I'll run a fast (e.g. close to 5:00/km) 3 mile/5k just to shake off the cobwebs. Are these non lsr paces OK, or should I do something different?

    Having said all of the above, as my training progresses, I'm becoming less concerned about my finish time, and more concerned about staying injury free and actually completing DCM on the day!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 313 ✭✭araic88


    Ah thanks dubgal & chops, ha ha I was baffled alright about the 20 miles in June thing, blonde moment!!
    I think you're right about the two half marathons in September, I just can't pick which to do! One is local, lots of relatives have said theyd come out to support, but the other is in a town I'll happen to be in that weekend anyway! I was thinking of running the first as a race ie try for a personal best but the second just as a leisurely 13 mile run?!
    Glad to hear the DCM course is quite flat so I won't worry so much about hills etc
    Thanks so much again!


  • Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    How's that hip today missus and did you get out at all today? Any feedback from physio? Hope you had a glass of that bubbly for me :D

    Hip is absolutely grand, a lot of tightness in my lower back though, which is the cause/effect of the sciatica/hip pain.

    I have to just take it handy, basically. I didn't run yesterday as being at the ironman all day just made it very stiff.

    Today was a rest day, and tomorrow was an easy run. So I decided to get 10 miles in this morning instead. Not ideal, but better than nothing. This morning was extremely tough though, I found it really really difficult, I had to stop a few times during it, and apart from a hill early on, it's not a tough route at all.

    Ye are talking about food, and I'm just struggling with it so much. I ate yesterday (lunch in the same cafe we met on Saturday!!) at 2pm, I had a decent lunch there and I had a cake I was so full I felt sick. I had eaten breakfast at 9am. I had a starbar around 4pm (I know, not the healthiest day of food ever), and I that was all I ate yesterday. Saturday I had a bowl of porridge before I met with ye, the cake with coffee after, and dinner.

    So I'm almost missing a meal a lot of days. I should say the cake/starbar combo is not normal for me at all, so when I'm missing out on meals I'm missing out on a lot of calories and they're not being replaced by junk. Maybe that's why my run this morning was a struggle when it really shouldn't have been. I'm just finding food a real battle.

    I'm also in a total tizzy about my plan, as you know - I run for time, not distance. I've naively just tried to go week by week with my plan and not get myself too worked up about a run that's a few weeks away. My friend (who lives far away) text this morning to ask the dates of my really long tough runs so that she could organise to run with me (yes, she is the awesomest person on the planet), and I studied my plan a bit more closely than before. I noticed that my Half Marathon on 13th September may well be the first time I run that distance, my plan doesn't really make any sense. The weekend just gone is the longest time on my current plan which takes me to the Great North Run. That leaves 6 weeks (or THREE if you take tapering into account, which I had done) to get my miles up.

    I'm in full on panic mode. I've mailed my running plan guy letting him know of my state of panic. Waiting for his reply :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    Kander wrote: »
    Okay so a little more detail.

    This is my first year doing set programs for training for both Triathlon earlier in the year and now for running only. I'm running 5 days a week doing 60km and recovery week at 30km. My conditioning work is non existent at the moment sadly.

    I did Dcm 2014 and got a PB of 4hr:30 and that optimistic goal is 3hr:15. I know this seems like a massive drop but I did have a great year of training for tri's so I lost a lot weight and improved cardio. Currently at 77kg and 19% body fat.

    I know the 3hr:30 is possible for me but I don't know if I should or if it's wise to push for that little bit more.

    I'm still full of newbie questions though cos I've come on so much in the last year and lucked out with the consistent training but I'll admit lacking the experience on the finer details. :o

    I've never actually used imperial measurements please don't hate me :P


    *Edit on this plan

    The more we know about your running history the better the recommendations we can make.

    Any idea how many km's you've run since the beginning of the year? How many since you just focused on running and when was that?

    Any PB's at shorter distances?

    What kind of sessions have you been doing?

    Where did you get the plan that you're following at the moment?

    Edit to add that it is possible for some people to improve by 20 seconds per km between now and the marathon however it depends on a number of factors only some of which will apply to you. Best to do the training, run a shorter race before the marathon and take your best shot on the day.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    TheBazman wrote: »
    I hear you...I suppose I felt so demotivated after the last LSR that I felt it was the pace that was the problem and needed to do another long run where I felt fairly upbeat afterwards. I'll be aiming to slow it down again on the next one and hopefully feel okay afterwards.

    I did a 10k race last Sunday and followed it up during the week with 3 x 10ks at around 1min/km slower than race pace so just need to extend it to the longer runs.

    10k pace + 1min/km is about marathon pace i.e. too fast!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭donglen


    donglen wrote: »
    The 12 miler scheduled on Saturday in the heat has me a little worried because of this, at the moment I'm thinking I'll probably scale it back a bit to be safe. Either way I think I'll have to set the alarm for a 5am start and try to locate some water vending machines on route. Also, I think I'll need to seriously up my water intake each day. I'll do another slow 4/5 miler before the LSR to see how that one goes.
    It's one for me to ponder further over a cool San Miguel.

    Just checking in from Majorca. Missed my LSR on Sat due to a combo of a late night/overslept. Did get in 6 miles though.
    Got my 12 miler in this morning, despite coming up with every reason in the book to postpone/cancel. Set a new personal record for the longest time on my feet at just over 2-1/2 hours so am happy with that progress. I must admit though that it is a struggle and and I had plenty of aches and pains as the minutes ticked by. Up and out the door at 5:15 am to get it done....wife thinks I'm in a mid-life crisis, but "at least it's not a sports car"!!
    The thoughts of needing to spend an additional 2-1/2 to 3 hours on my feet on top of today is quite intimidating, there's most definitely a mental battle to be fought also.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    LSR done at 9 am this morning after
    Meeting friends for dinner last night,
    Late night, so was expecting to feel
    Tired this morning.
    But 14.2 miles done avg 9.17, I know
    On high end of scale for LSR, miles
    Where comfortable & was able to chat
    All the way, splits where all within few
    Seconds of each other so consistent,
    On the up side, had watch set for 9.55
    Pace, so was surprised at split times
    When finished as running bud had mapped
    Out run with 4-5 miles of a drag uphill.
    Will make conscious effort to dial back
    Pace next week.
    Nice to meet all novices yesterday, thanks
    To PJD & Dubgal for making it all happen &
    Going smoothly.
    45 miles completed this week & still feeling
    Good after run today & looking forward to
    Weeks ahead.

    Another good solid week, G. Remind me what the target is again? 3:45?

    45 miles on a week that had 36 scheduled. I hope the extras were very slow recovery miles.

    We will have to get you on Strava to keep an eye on you :pac::pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    donglen wrote: »
    Just checking in from Majorca. Missed my LSR on Sat due to a combo of a late night/overslept. Did get in 6 miles though.
    Got my 12 miler in this morning, despite coming up with every reason in the book to postpone/cancel. Set a new personal record for the longest time on my feet at just over 2-1/2 hours so am happy with that progress. I must admit though that it is a struggle and and I had plenty of aches and pains as the minutes ticked by. Up and out the door at 5:15 am to get it done....wife thinks I'm in a mid-life crisis, but "at least it's not a sports car"!!
    The thoughts of needing to spend an additional 2-1/2 to 3 hours on my feet on top of today is quite intimidating, there's most definitely a mental battle to be fought also.

    Or a young wan...or a young wan in a sports car :D

    Holiday running is always that little bit tougher. Fairplay for getting up and out.


  • Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm marathon training and got a sports car :o

    Oh god.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭KingMambo26


    I'm marathon training and got a sports car :o

    Oh god.

    You're too young for life crises! Leave it for the old foggies like myself. I'm actually having an agonising time trying to decide whether to get a new VW Passat or a BMW 3 Series. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭donglen


    FBOT01 wrote: »
    Or a young wan...or a young wan in a sports car

    As if I'd have the energy with all this training!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭HelenAnne


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    Care to join us for some/all of it tomorrow?!

    Sorry, didn't see this! I was away at the weekend, but glad it went so well!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    FBOT01 wrote: »
    Or a young wan...or a young wan in a sports car :D
    donglen wrote: »
    As if I'd have the energy with all this training!!!

    The response I got from the Missus was "Don't be kidding yourself. Sure no young wan would have you and the only sports car you could afford would be as old as yourself and probably need as much work done!" :D


  • Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    donglen wrote: »
    As if I'd have the energy with all this training!!!

    Effort of it like.
    You're too young for life crises! Leave it for the old foggies like myself. I'm actually having an agonising time trying to decide whether to get a new VW Passat or a BMW 3 Series. :rolleyes:

    I'm older than I look I'll have you know.

    And so is my beautiful 21 year old car :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    FBOT01, you probably won't read this :pac:

    Tea drinker? Finding it hard to 'flush out' before your lsr? Have a read of this ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    FBOT01, you probably won't read this :pac:

    Tea drinker? Finding it hard to 'flush out' before your lsr? Have a read of this ;)

    Your right, DG. I'll pass :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭Toulouse


    Is Wk 8 up on the spreadsheet? Am accessing from my phone so can't tell if it's not there or I just can't see it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭This Fat Girl Runs


    Hi guys, well I'm back from my holiday and I had a brilliant time visiting my friend in Sweden. I confess I didn't do any running while I was away, even though I had brought my running gear and had planned to get some miles in. We did a ton of walking though!

    I don't feel guilty about not running, as I think the break did me good physically and mentally. I started marathon training at the beginning of April so have been going at it for 4 months pretty much non-stop. I was feeling a bit drained after the half and this rest, while unplanned, has done me a world of good. Things will be pretty intense from now until the marathon and I'm back to a place where I'm excited about it.

    So tomorrow it's back to my usual work, life, training routine. Biggest priority is to find a physiotherapist or even a sports massage...ist (?) for some work on my legs. I think my calves and achilles could use loosening up!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    Did 5 recovery on Monday 10.30 pace
    & did 8 with misses on Wednesday
    9.45 avg. was not expecting to do
    So many on Saturday, about 8, but
    Got to park earlier than expected to,

    What else to do but run around playing
    Hide & seek after early arrivals.

    Will dial back pace for most of run
    FBOT01 wrote: »
    Kennyg71 wrote: »



    next Sunday, as we have 6 at race
    Pace, was a bit sore after last week
    LSR as only did about 10 miles before
    Run, so though recovery run would help.

    All good today apart from usual. Booked
    In for Physio Tuesday before 10 mile race

    Intend going with 4 hr pacer & if 20 mile
    Warm up goes well, seeing what have in
    tank, all going according to plan over next
    11 weeks��


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,462 ✭✭✭TheBazman


    Clearlier wrote: »
    10k pace + 1min/km is about marathon pace i.e. too fast!

    I have been thinking that adding 1min/km to each distance race pace (ie)running 10k distance at 10k race pace + 1min. So in reality what I should be doing is all my training runs at my LSR pace? I would have thought that the shorter non LSR runs should be a bit faster than the LSR runs?

    (I see ZV Yoda is asking a similar question)

    Cheers


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    TheBazman wrote: »
    I have been thinking that adding 1min/km to each distance race pace (ie)running 10k distance at 10k race pace + 1min. So in reality what I should be doing is all my training runs at my LSR pace? I would have thought that the shorter non LSR runs should be a bit faster than the LSR runs?

    (I see ZV Yoda is asking a similar question)

    Cheers

    Standard easy runs and LSRs should be done at more or less the same pace. I would generally do the LSRs a bit faster in fact (I tend to run a very slow first mile or two which skews the pace of shorter runs downwards).

    Depending on your programme you could always do one of your shorter runs a bit faster than LSR pace (that's if you don't have a pace run or a tempo run in your programme). But nly one I would say. You'd get more advantage from doing an extra easy run per week than doing the majority of your easy runs at faster than LSR pace.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭Mrs Mc


    FBOT01 wrote: »
    Another good solid week, G. Remind me what the target is again? 3:45?

    45 miles on a week that had 36 scheduled. I hope the extras were very slow recovery miles.

    We will have to get you on Strava to keep an eye on you :pac::pac:

    Oh Oh G looks like you are in trouble with FBOT !!!:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    Mrs Mc wrote: »
    Oh Oh G looks like you are in trouble with FBOT !!!:)
    I know, previous post was outlining extra miles. Made
    Bags of it, it linked to previous post, hence messed up
    Scrubbing some out.

    Feel in better shape end of this Week, than last, back to
    routine. So hide & go seek and recovery run paying dividends
    Lucky he did not see Runkeeper app on phone, or he would
    Think I am trying to qualify for olympics��


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    I know, previous post was outlining extra miles. Made
    Bags of it, it linked to previous post, hence messed up
    Scrubbing some out.

    Feel in better shape end of this Week, than last, back to
    routine. So hide & go seek and recovery run paying dividends
    Lucky he did not see Runkeeper app on phone, or he would
    Think I am trying to qualify for olympics��

    Dumped that runkeeper and come join the Strava crew:cool:


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