Running an ethernet cable in a mains conduit

Irish Stones

I need to run two lengths of ethernet cable from two different locations of the house to the same room, and unless I dismantle the house there's no way to hide them, so I am thinking of running them into the mains conduits (or whatever the plastic pipes inside the walls are called).
I think I have enough room into the conduits to reach the spot I need.
Are there any problems with this idea?
I'm talking ethernet cable Cat6, UTP, at least this is stamped on the cable.
Thanks!

liamo

Hi

The general recommendation is to keep ethernet cables and mains cable apart - some say 10cm, some say 30cm.

My own experience is that I have had success where ethernet and mains cable ran alongside each other for a short distance. I have also experienced a situation where a customer's network would randomly drop out for short periods of time. I traced it to recent work where they cable-tied their ethernet cables in the ceiling to a new power cable in the ceiling.

So ... it's probably worth giving it a go and seeing how you get on but if you experience poor network performance and/or loss of comms you know what's probably behind it.

Regards

Liam

Irish Stones

Thanks Liam!
I had that suspect, I just wanted to have a tip from someone who had tried it before.

My second chance is to convert the signal from this ethernet device to a wireless one.
Does such a device exist?
I'm looking for something that can handle the signal coming out from the RJ45 port of an IP cam and convert it to wireless so that my router can receive it.
Even better if the wireless signal is received by a dedicated receiver that then throws it out on a RJ45, I will wire it to my router.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated!!!

degsie

Look for Wireless Ethernet Bridge, Amazon have a few.

dr.fuzzenstein

Have you considered ethernet over power lines?
http://www.techradar.com/news/networking/powerline-networking-what-you-need-to-know-930691

Irish Stones

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Have you considered ethernet over power lines?
http://www.techradar.com/news/networking/powerline-networking-what-you-need-to-know-930691

Yes, I have...
I purchased a kit from TP-LINK, TL-PA4010 Kit, two powerline modules in a box.
They worked perfectly for two months, then I had the idea to extend the network and purchased a second kit. It all worked for about 5 hours, then none of them saw the others modules.
I emailed TP-LINK and they explained me how to proceed to reset and restore the kit, but nothing worked and I now I have four modules that don't see one other...
I ended up with the opinion that it's not a reliable system to transfer the signals from two IP Cam to a router.
So I am considering to convert the RJ45 signal to a wireless signal.
I have found this item on several websites
http://www.amazon.co.uk/BrainyDeal-Wireless-Ethernet-Adapter-Dreambox/dp/B005N6WHQ6
but its utility is controversial, some say that it's perfect, some say that it doesn't work at all.
Do you know anything better. It has to be compact, if possible.

Irish Stones

I also found this ethernet bridge
http://www.amazon.co.uk/NetGear-WNCE2001-100PES-Netgear-WNCE2001-WLAN-client/dp/B003D0WZKC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431492060&sr=8-1&keywords=wnce2001

that it's still compact and I think it's of a better brand than the previous one, so it could be more reliable. What do you think?

Just in case the distance between my IP Cams and my router is too long to be covered by this bridge, I am considering this range extender, that should fill the gap in the transmission. Do you think it's a good choice?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/NETGEAR-EX2700-100UKS-Wi-Fi-Extender-Booster/dp/B00NIUHAG6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431491788&sr=8-1&keywords=ex2700

Thanks so much!

dr.fuzzenstein

Irish Stones wrote: »

Thanks so much!

Shouldn't your username be pietre irlandesi?

Irish Stones

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Shouldn't your username be pietre irlandesi?

Amazing!
You know Italian well , very good.
Yes, it should be, but there is a good reason for it being in English.
I leave to you the pleasure to find it out :P

As for my request, any tip?

dr.fuzzenstein

In my case, Google Translate has good Italian, I only have good German, that would be Irische Steine.
No suggestions yet, I'll think about it.

Irish Stones

I do hope that any of you experts will tell me something, I need to solve this problem out as soon as possible and I have 6 hours left to order and have them tomorrow morning!

dr.fuzzenstein

Irish Stones wrote: »

I do hope that any of you experts will tell me something, I need to solve this problem out as soon as possible and I have 6 hours left to order and have them tomorrow morning!

Yes. It's better to wait a week and order the right thing than to order the wrong thing now.

Irish Stones

OK, now I know that I won't be home tomorrow morning, but I will be on Friday, so I have 24 hours left now

Cuddlesworth

I wouldn't run a IP camera over a wireless bridge, it will severely limit the bandwidth on the main routers wireless.

Irish Stones

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I wouldn't run a IP camera over a wireless bridge, it will severely limit the bandwidth on the main routers wireless.

Could you please explain it better?
Do you mean that the wireless bridge would eat up all the bandwidth of the router? Why should it do that? Isn't it like any other wireless device (tablet, smartphone, another wi-fi smart device around the house)?

mass_debater

Irish Stones wrote: »

Could you please explain it better?
Do you mean that the wireless bridge would eat up all the bandwidth of the router? Why should it do that? Isn't it like any other wireless device (tablet, smartphone, another wi-fi smart device around the house)?

What he means is, wireless is one way traffic. A wireless router can only talk to one device at a time, in one direction at a time, it cannot send and receive at the same time like a cable. Having one static device continuously talking will drastically slow the wireless routers performance, especially video which is a lot of talking.

BigEejit

If there is no other option you could try using some really well shielded network cable. Normally this means using cat6a or cat 7 SSTP (aka S/FTP). And importantly make sure it has metal connectors at each end like below:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Data%C2%AE-CAT6A-600MHz-Network/dp/B00DGS05Q2/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431686218&sr=8-1-fkmr2

The metal connectors are connected to the outside foil/braid, so hopefully your switch or router will then ground that (I suppose you could connect that to ground yourself). Also the pairs internally in the cable have a foil shield. All this of course leads to a stiff cable (fnarr fnarr) that may be difficult to bend around sharp corners.

As was mentioned earlier, it is strongly discouraged running network alongside power and even using properly terminated SSTP, your mileage may vary.

dr.fuzzenstein

I would say that shielded cable or Ethernet via powrline are the best options. If the routers you have are not working, its a problem with setup, these things work reliably in millions of homes.

oppenheimer1

You should never run power and comms in the same duct. It's dangerous and the risk of shorting is too great never mind interference. Two buildings should not be connected with Ethernet since they will be at different electrical potentials. The easiest and safest way to do this is to run fibre or do it wirelessly.

I've done this already, and used fibre for the job. Pre-terminated cable and media converters are not particularly expensive.

dr.fuzzenstein

I get what you're saying, but its not two different buildings. Connecting up two different rooms in a house with fibre might be overkill.
Cat 6e shielded cable should be up for it. But from what people say, if you can find an alternative, you'll be better off.

Irish Stones

Thanks a million everybody.
Now, running a shielded and stiff cable might be a serious problem, I have no guarantee that all my conduits allow me to do that, one single conduit with a problem would kill the project entirely!
My powerline modules (TP-Link PA4010) have failed me, I have written to TP-Link and they told me to run some tests, I did as they asked me to do, no success, I reported them all my results and they concluded that their modules are faulty and adviced me to give them back to the local shop where I bought them.
I could do that, even though I doubt that all the four modules broke down at the same time.

At the moment I worked the problem out with a range extender and two wireless bridges. All of them from Netgear (EX2700 and WNCE2001).
The two IP Cams have turned to wireless IP Cams, the range extender extends the wireless coverage of my router to the farthest corner of the house where one Cam is. I tested the coverage with my notebook and it says "excellent signal" where until a few minutes ago it would say "very poor signal".
I can see the two Cams, and I can say that at the moment I'm happy... until next failure...

Thanks to you all, without your tips I wouldn't have come up to this solution!

mass_debater

Good luck with that, when someone in the house streams YouTube or something else bandwidth intensive your cameras will stutter. Range extenders are the worst possible way you could do it because a range extender cuts your bandwidth in half, fine if you just want to browse but you're sending continuous video over it.

dr.fuzzenstein

Sometimes its all about compromise and sometimes the right solution can't be achieved all in one go. Maybe open a thread about the IP over power line modules, because 4 of them don't fail at the same time, unless there was a power surge and they got fried. Are you sure the wiring is OK?

If you are going down the mains line route, get one of these:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winner-Mains-Polarity-Tester-Plug/dp/B002QW3SL8

Irish Stones

mass_debater wrote: »

Good luck with that, when someone in the house streams YouTube or something else bandwidth intensive your cameras will stutter. Range extenders are the worst possible way you could do it because a range extender cuts your bandwidth in half, fine if you just want to browse but you're sending continuous video over it.

The tests I ran yesterday were good.
In the house I'm the only PC and web user, generally I just browse and I have to say that with the notebook I didn't notice any problem around the house.
The coverage, of course, has improved a lot.
At the moment being, this was the best solution I could find.

Irish Stones

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sometimes its all about compromise and sometimes the right solution can't be achieved all in one go. Maybe open a thread about the IP over power line modules, because 4 of them don't fail at the same time, unless there was a power surge and they got fried. Are you sure the wiring is OK?

If you are going down the mains line route, get one of these:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winner-Mains-Polarity-Tester-Plug/dp/B002QW3SL8

That's a very interesting item! I didn't know they exist.
The mains in the house is good, and I am very positive about this because I did it myself when the house was built and I did more than the best it was possible to do at those times.
The inspector who came to release the certification said he had never seen anything laid out better that mine.
Of course it as about 22 years ago and almost nothing was known about ethernet and probably nobody would have laid out a network in their house in th aerly 1990's. Internet was far from coming.
If I were to do the same thing now I would lay more conduits and, probably, in a different way, with more options for future needs.

ArseBurger

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You should never run power and comms in the same duct.

While this ^^ is generally true.

Be careful throwing comments like this:

It's dangerous and the risk of shorting is too great never mind interference.

And especially this:

Two buildings should not be connected with Ethernet since they will be at different electrical potentials.

Around ,unless you are qualified to make such statements.

wrt two buildings and 'electric potentials' - you can have multiple potential points with deltas within the same building. This is why, for only one reason, you should have differentiated and separated earthing for computer and electrical circuits. Not to mention plumbing and passive circuits.

oppenheimer1

ArseBurger wrote: »

While this ^^ is generally true.

Be careful throwing comments like this:



And especially this:



Around ,unless you are qualified to make such statements.

wrt two buildings and 'electric potentials' - you can have multiple potential points with deltas within the same building. This is why, for only one reason, you should have differentiated and separated earthing for computer and electrical circuits. Not to mention plumbing and passive circuits.

I don't think I've stated anything controversial by advising the op to not use Ethernet in a mains conduit. Wireless or fibre are the only real solutions in this instance.

Advising the op to use shielded cable is far more risky and shows a poor understanding of the risks

ArseBurger

All I said was be careful.

The_Rev

what you want for cameras is POE whereby you power the camera and bring the data back to your switch all in one c5e cable.

for your particular situation:do not use cat6 (it's too stiff and bulky) !!! and do not use unshelded as you're running next to an interference source.

Get shielded Cat5e FTP cable (it's a little dearer), it will also be easier to work with than cat6
You will have no issues with running a short distance next to mains cables.
You can also get shielded rj45 connectors and keystone jacks etc and run the cables directly to your switch.

Irish Stones

The_Rev wrote: »

what you want for cameras is POE whereby you power the camera and bring the data back to your switch all in one c5e cable.

My cams aren't PoE...

You will have no issues with running a short distance next to mains cables.
You can also get shielded rj45 connectors and keystone jacks etc and run the cables directly to your switch.

The distance would have been several meters, I reckon around 25 meters at least...
Now I'm working with two ethernet-wireless bridges and a range extender and so fa it's doing fine.

The_Rev

what are the cameras?

sounds like a lot of extra hardware to save on your cabling... and you're still using wireless!

also, you can get POE injectors instead if the cameras aren't natively POE.
eg: http://www.irishwireless.net/poe-injectors-splitters/poe1a2l

Irish Stones

The cameras are two IP Full HD dome cameras that I bought from a local store.
Running two ethernet cables from them to the place where the recorder is was close to impossible.
I have four more IP cameras from Foscam. Two on another side of the house are wired to the recorder, it was easier for these, just a wall in the middle. Other two cams are wireless natively and stay inside the house.
They all work fine.

The_Rev

I find local stores to be dear enough when it comes to IP cameras. So just incase yours was dear too... here's what i'd recommend for any future installs...

dome camera:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hikvision-3MP-IP-cctv-POE-onvif-HD-1080P-security-cameras-ipcam-IP66-outdoor-mini-cam-video/1972003924.html

but the trouble with dome cameras and the IR for night time viewing is that you can get reflections from dirt/dust/spider webs. So I prefer these cameras which seem to work better at night:

Bullet camera:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hikvision-DS-2CD2032-I-3MP-Mini-Bullet-Camera-1080P-POE-power-supply-Network-IP66-HD-Outdoor/1871226963.html

might be worth considering upgrading the Foscams to these? they're 1080 etc. etc. and also accept POE

Irish Stones

I have had problems with AliExpress. I ordered items that never arrived. I was refunded, but I wasted my time waiting for something that wasn't even coming!
Then there are customs, taxes and VAT to be added to the prices.

The_Rev wrote: »

I find local stores to be dear enough when it comes to IP cameras. So just incase yours was dear too... here's what i'd recommend for any future installs...

dome camera:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hikvision-3MP-IP-cctv-POE-onvif-HD-1080P-security-cameras-ipcam-IP66-outdoor-mini-cam-video/1972003924.html

My dome cameras are these

http://www.gbconline.it/main.asp?L=3&COD_0=5&COD_1=110&COD_2=717&COD_3=715&ItmName=67.3795.41

Sorry, the description is in Italian, but I suppose that the meaning of most of the specifications is clear anyway
The price was 189 euro each. Very dear, I know, but they do what I was looking for.

but the trouble with dome cameras and the IR for night time viewing is that you can get reflections from dirt/dust/spider webs. So I prefer these cameras which seem to work better at night:

Bullet camera:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hikvision-DS-2CD2032-I-3MP-Mini-Bullet-Camera-1080P-POE-power-supply-Network-IP66-HD-Outdoor/1871226963.html

My choice was biased by the fact that my cameras have a very wide view angle, 120°, they are varifocal.
And they have a good vision at night, very detailed and with a long distance IR view.

might be worth considering upgrading the Foscams to these? they're 1080 etc. etc. and also accept POE

Though Hikvision is a very good brand, I think that Foscam has a good reputation.
More, they have an excellent customer support. And it's local, not on the other side of the world, with a gap of hours. The chat and the emails are real-time.
What I have outside are these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Foscam-FI9903P-Camera-Outdoor-Security/dp/B00P115MS8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1432041379&sr=8-1&keywords=9903

The price, considered VAT and customs, is the same