Electric shower - what am I missing?

VandC

So I want to install a second electric shower in the house. Couple of notes;

I don't need both showers to be able to run at the same time. One shower at a time is more than enough! People just have to be patient and wait :-)

The bathroom that I want to install the shower in currently has no shower in it.

The shower will be installed over existing bath.

Bathroom is already tiled.

Wall that it will be installed on has tiles on plasterboard, i.e. not solid wall. (Showing my lack of knowledge here but think this is called a stud wall)

Water tank is in attic directly above where intend to install shower.

So my shopping list is as follows:

Mira/triton shower, cable, isolator, RCBO, priority switch, pipe work & fittings

Labour to include: route cold sully to shower, route cable from distribution board, mount shower, wire & plumb

Obviously I'm missing the right (qualified) people to do the job, but would appreciate if anybody could tell me if I'm missing anything from my lists above (pm if recommending anybody in Dublin area to do this job) and if anybody also has a rough idea of what this work would cost?

Apologies if this would sit better in electric forum and TIA for advice

Sleeper12

I don't understand why you are suppling the materials. It'll work out much more expensive that way.

Your plumber / electrician claim back the high rate of VAT on materials if they are suppling them. Then they only change you the low rate on the whole job as it is considered a service.

I strongly suggest pricing a proper shower installation company and compare it to the way you are doing it.

VandC

I will be getting a company to do it and purchase materials but one has quoted me over 1400 for it which can't be right. I'm trying to understand the work required as labour surely shouldn't be costing me over a thousand euro. It seems plumbers are willing to do the a-z of the job at half the price with materials included but my concern is that they aren't qualified on the electrics part. So I just want to understand full scope of job and not be some idiot that has been robbed blind which is what that quote from the shower company to is making me feel! BTW I am trying to get a better breakdown from this company but they're not very forthcoming with the info.

dodzy

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I don't understand why you are suppling the materials. It'll work out much more expensive that way.

Your plumber / electrician claim back the high rate of VAT on materials if they are suppling them. Then they only change you the low rate on the whole job as it is considered a service.

I strongly suggest pricing a proper shower installation company and compare it to the way you are doing it.

Text in bold to be "taken with a pinch of salt".

Sleeper12

That's simply not true. It'll be on the invoice 13.5%.

€400 labour is a good start for a basic installation. This would be for a standard surface installation. If you want the walls chased etc you can expect the price to increase accordingly.

Average price in Dublin for a proper shower installation company is between €600 & €700 supplied & fitted running everything surface.
Try doing a Google search. Anyone doing other stuff on their site heating, bathrooms, other electric work stay away from. You need a dedicated shower installation company.

Flood

Op you dont need a dedicated shower installation company to do your job, shower installation companies will scaremonger you into thinking that but two separate tradesmen is all you need maybe even one.
I dont know why chasing walls are being mentioned as its a stud wall which the shower can be very easily fitted to as its an upstairs bathroom. I have successfully managed to do these installations at great ease and no kango needed. Who uses a kango on a stud wall anyway?

Sleeper12

Flood wrote:

Op you dont need a dedicated shower installation company to do your job, shower installation companies will scaremonger you into thinking that but two separate tradesmen is all you need maybe even one. I dont know why chasing walls are being mentioned as its a stud wall which the shower can be very easily fitted to as its an upstairs bathroom. I have successfully managed to do these installations at great ease and no kango needed. Who uses a kango on a stud wall anyway?

The reason to go to a dedicated shower installation company is because they are factory trained engineers by the likes of Triton, Mira, Aqualisa.
They do this all day every day. A plumber or electrician might only do a few per year. I've never seen an electrician test water pressure when fitting a mains fed shower for example.
Also a dedicated shower installation company should not cost any more (& in fact should be cheaper even with 2 qualified tradesmen). Remembering this is all they do all day every day. I believe OP has already been quoted over 1000 euro from a tradesman quoting for the job. Most Shower installation companies actually have their prices on the websites and you won't see quotes like that on them.
Regardless of what road you go down you should insist on seeing proof of insurance & they have to give you a cert for the work carried out on the fuseboad.

Flood

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The reason to go to a dedicated shower installation company is because they are factory trained engineers by the likes of Triton, Mira, Aqualisa.
They do this all day every day. A plumber or electrician might only do a few per year. I've never seen an electrician test water pressure when fitting a mains fed shower for example.

You are insulting alot of plumbers and electricians with that statement anyway.

Also a dedicated shower installation company should not cost any more (& in fact should be cheaper even with 2 qualified tradesmen). Remembering this is all they do all day every day.

What is it with pushing a dedicated shower installation company and you? does a factory trained so called engineer drill a hole better than a plumber or install a pipe better? You do realise you are well misusing the word engineer.

Most Shower installation companies actually have their prices on the websites and you won't see quotes like that on them.

Are shower installation companies magic or something that they can have quotations on jobs that they havent seen?

Regardless of what road you go down you should insist on seeing proof of insurance & they have to give you a cert for the work carried out on the fuseboad.

This is only common sense.

freddyuk

No one has mentioned the fact you are proposing to install a shower on a plasterboard wall which has been tiled for a bathroom ie. possibly just stuck to the wall enough to hold them on.
Having a shower over this is likely to lead to grief unless the wall is properly prepared for a constant wetting from a shower.

Sleeper12

Flood wrote:

You are insulting alot of plumbers and electricians with that statement anyway.

Flood wrote:

What is it with pushing a dedicated shower installation company and you? does a factory trained so called engineer drill a hole better than a plumber or install a pipe better? You do realise you are well misusing the word engineer.

A factory trained shower engineer will be either a plumber or an electrician.

The worst showers installed in this country were installed on behalf of the ESB. All The ESB cared about was that the electrical end was up to standard. They didn't care if the electrictricans used plastic screw on fittings. These fittings leaked when moved so when the shower way being replaced years later this causes a major headache for the homeowner or the poor unfortunate changing the shower.
They didn't care that the shower might be installed too close to the wall not thinking that future versions of the shower may not be to replace it without opening the wall.
They didn't care when showers were placed too close to the side of a bath. A year later & the homeowner wants a glass bath screen but can't because the shower is in the way.
Or the showers that are stuck on with silicone because they can't be bothered drilling through porcelain tiles.
There's a lot more to fitting a shower properly than being able to screw a screw into a wall. Most tradesman can't even get the shower pole straight. If NEVER seen an electrician put a pressure gauge on the water to test if it is suitable for a mains fed shower. Very few qualified plumbers bother to do it. What happens then is the homeowner discovers that they can only get a hot shower after midnight when the pressure increases. They also find out that water pressure in not covered by the manufacturer warranty.
There's a lot more to fitting showers correctly than being able to drill a hole for a screw.
Like I said earlier I don't believe it was a shower installation company that quoted over 1000 euro.
The reason a shower installation company can advertise their prices on their website is because it's what they do for a living. They do it every day, not once or twice a year.
While there are plenty of good plumbers & electricians out there I suggest to the OP a shower installation company so he knows he is getting quality instead of taking a chance on a tradesman. I'm also trying to steer him away from the cash in hand, guy on the dole job.

Flood

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A factory trained shower engineer will be either a plumber or an electrician.

A seperate plumber and electrician is equal to a factory trained so called engineer so.

While there are plenty of good plumbers & electricians out there I suggest to the OP a shower installation company so he knows he is getting quality instead of taking a chance on a tradesman.

You are unbelievable insulting professional trademen like that. You a so called shower engineer me hole.

Sleeper12

Flood wrote:

You are unbelievable insulting professional trademen like that. You a so called shower engineer me hole.

I do believe that it's you that is being insulting here.

Do you honestly believe that a plumber or electrician who has trained specially in shower installation & repair (the correct title IS shower engineer) & continues to train on an annual basis wouldn't be better at shower installation & repair? That they wouldn't know more about the showers they are installing?
Sure why bother doing any training course if that is the case. Why shouldn't any plumber install & repair gas boilers? How many plumbers will tell you that there is nothing to a boiler service? Sure all they do is clean them? (obviously this is not the case. There is a lot more to a boiler service)

A shower installed by a trained shower engineer statistically gives less trouble & has a longer lifespan than a shower that a non engineer installs. How often do you hear plumbers saying that the tritons are louder than a mira even though they use the same motor. An engineer knows it's down to the acoustics of the wall. They learn how to compensate for this.

I find it insulting that you belittle someone who goes to the trouble of bettering their knowledge on something & specialises in something. With your attitude you might as well say but sure you don't need to train to be a plumber. Once you can use a shifter & a grips your on the pigs back.

I'll say it again, I suggest to the OP that he uses a shower installation company. My reasons for this are, they are much more knowledgeable about electric showers be it installation or repair. (Flood has proved my point with his belief that all you need to know is how to drill & screw a shower to the wall. Hands up who wants someone with that attitude working in their home)
They should work out cheaper than a plumber or electrician who only fits one or 2 electric showers per year. They advertise their rates online so you have a good idea on the cost before you even ring them.
They will be insured (I've seen some with their insurance certificate on the site). You will get a cert for electrical work carried out on fuseboad. You might need this for insurance company at a later stage.

17larsson

A priority unit will also need to be fitted so that both showers aren't on at the same time

al22

Buying an electric shower in my ex country one will get instruction leaflet how to install it yourself. And most people will DIY.
I myself ex-electrician, I see it all very simple to do with a basic installation instructions provided. There are instructions and videos on the Internet DIY too.

Sometimes wondering what is the fuss to be trained for years to perform a basic work later?


Fix shower to the wall - basic
Connect to a pipe with water - basic
Plug in/connect to electricity - basic work also

DGOBS

@ Sleep12 and Flood, keep it civil please.

al22: In this country this type of electrical works are controlled. Period.

cerastes

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I don't understand why you are suppling the materials. It'll work out much more expensive that way.

Your plumber / electrician claim back the high rate of VAT on materials if they are suppling them. Then they only change you the low rate on the whole job as it is considered a service.

I strongly suggest pricing a proper shower installation company and compare it to the way you are doing it.

These days, you need to have a qualified electrician to do the electrical connection. Ive a trade myself but Im not an electrician. It is (or was) possible to install yourself, I did my own years ago, but Id a lot of experience gained working on electrical equipment in a non domestic environment and some experience doing calculations on current carrying capacity, I think industrial installations are still not governed by regulations covering domestic installations (open to correction).
I enquired about having a second, one person told me that the supply to a domestic house wouldnt be sufficient if both were ran, I carried out a calculation at the time an low and behold, they were right, it was above the amperage of the main fuse/breaker. I left it be as I think its more benefit to have a pump and heat the water with the gas boiler and use the electric shower infrequently or far a backup when there isnt the time to heat the water.

Prior to doing the install, Id made enquiries off some shower installation places and the quotes were outrageous. On top of that a relative was getting an instal done recently and the person was going to fit an insufficiently suitable size of wiring, which wouldnt allow for upgrading to a larger rating of shower and although I didnt do a calculation may not even have been suitable due to the length of the run from the consumer unit, I advised the relative to insist on a larger diameter cable while the work was being done as the cost difference was negligble compared to the hassle of rewiring later. The dolt that did the job still ended up ducting the installed bathroom fan into the attic space, either he was a moron, didnt care or was just cutting corners.

That said Triton supplied almost step by step instructions with their showers, Im sure others do, fitting up and running wiring, pipes to the shower is the greater hassle I think, depending on the location of a suitable access to the water and consumer unit, maybe the OP can agree on the route and run certain parts or drill out holes themselves depending on their ability, not sure how an electrician would feel about that as they are still probably going to charge a minimum amount and they may need to check the wiring to ensure it hasnt been damaged in the install if they didnt route it, plus you're more paying for their skills and ability to sign off as much as the work. Im not sure if they test the insulation on their own work or prior installs either.

Im not convinced about the whole cheaper VAT argument though, I thinks it may work out in the end as I dont know that the difference is passed on and you may be charged for the item differently than it can be purchased at by them as the supplying individual has to collect and supply it too, Ive read item plus x percent.
On that point Id have thought the full benefit should be required to be passed on to the customer to encourage use of tradespeople but that may depend on if they are VAT registered or not.

al22

Controlled electrical works - means you need an electritian to plug your TV into the electric socket?

I do not see big factories here? so it may be a problem to find an electrician etc. I used to work as an electrician at te factory with over 10?000 employees and thousands of machinery/ ll training is usually not longer than 2-3 months part-time doing the job at the same time/ And in 1-2 months was no problem to fix any issues - empoyer would be not able to afford half a year training for anybody for a basic general work -
I laugh if requests in Ireland a 5 years experience required to help to make beds - read last week this announcement for B&B in Cork.

No offence - people are clever enough everywere to get a short training and do the job. Just request to be experienced/trained/diploma/etc for sweeping a floor... ?

VandC

freddyuk wrote:

No one has mentioned the fact you are proposing to install a shower on a plasterboard wall which has been tiled for a bathroom ie. possibly just stuck to the wall enough to hold them on. Having a shower over this is likely to lead to grief unless the wall is properly prepared for a constant wetting from a shower.

Perhaps this is the most stupid question/statement in the world but I thought that the fact that the wall was tiled would be enough to be prepared for constant wetting. Is there a way to tell?

anthonyos

1400 is far to expensive I would say 800 is more realistic you would also need a bath screen. Is the other electric shower upstairs aswell

VandC

anthonyos wrote:

1400 is far to expensive I would say 800 is more realistic you would also need a bath screen. Is the other electric shower upstairs aswell

1400 is daylight robbery. Have spoken to a few shower installation companies and they quoted between five and six hundred for full installation, including parts. Both showers will be upstairs. I've since found out a priority switch is not legally required but I think I will get one anyway, just in case but that adds to the quote. Will be going shower rail and curtain route for now. Will consider shower screen in future when doing up the bathroom.

Sleeper12

VandC wrote:

1400 is daylight robbery. Have spoken to a few shower installation companies and they quoted between five and six hundred for full installation, including parts. Both showers will be upstairs. I've since found out a priority switch is not legally required but I think I will get one anyway, just in case but that adds to the quote. Will be going shower rail and curtain route for now. Will consider shower screen in future when doing up the bathroom.

I can't speak for the rest of the country but in Dublin a proper shower installation company usually works out cheaper than a plumber or electrician, assuming said tradesmen are insured and paying their taxes. They can do this because they are geared up for showers all the time. They buy showers by the dozen so get them cheaper. As you have found out these shower installation companies DO pass on these savings to their clients. They could do 2 or 3 installations per day where most tradesmen install a few showers per year.

K.Flyer

Approx 600.00 sounds about right, but that's for a relatively straightforward install, and subject to a site visit.. The only legal obligations is that a RECI electrician completes the connection at the fuse board.
Every house is different, and the variables in cost are usually dictated by the location of the fuse board in relation to the bathroom and the routing of the cable. Other things that can affect the cost is if the wall where the shower unit will go is a stud wall or solid, tiled or un-tiled.
The priority switch is to prevent two showers being used at the same time. The reason is if both are running together the total current demand can be greater than the main fuse and it will trip. (As explained to me by a sparks)
Have the priority set for whoever is using the shower first.
A lot of shower screens are useless. But I found this one to be an ideal solution to complement a shower curtain.

Argos Short Shower Screen

anthonyos

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I can't speak for the rest of the country but in Dublin a proper shower installation company usually works out cheaper than a plumber or electrician, assuming said tradesmen are insured and paying their taxes. They can do this because they are geared up for showers all the time. They buy showers by the dozen so get them cheaper. As you have found out these shower installation companies DO pass on these savings to their clients. They could do 2 or 3 installations per day where most tradesmen install a few showers per year.

give it a break get a good plumber that's not going to rip you of get them to do there end of things and ask them to recommend an electrician to wire and sign of on it

Sleeper12

anthonyos wrote:

give it a break get a good plumber that's not going to rip you of get them to do there end of things and ask them to recommend an electrician to wire and sign of on it

OP tried that and was quoted over 1000 Euro. OP was quoted 500 to 600 supplied and fitted by proper installation company with vat receipt and fully insured. Most plumbers and electricians change much more than this. OP is only dealing with one company and not two. Shower installation company has parts for the shower with them. If in the unlikely case the new shower has a faulty part they will replace it there and then. Plumber or electrician says its covered by the warranty and expect client to phone triton and wait a week for them to repair the shower.

There's a lot to be said for a business that advertises its price on its site. A set price for all. Take the good with the bad. No need to go out to look at the job first. Keep things simple.

K.Flyer

That's all fine, but I wonder do they send an electrician to do all the work, or two people.
But I do think that you are being a bit unfair in your comments towards honest tradesmen who can and will do a perfectly good job at fitting an electric shower for a reasonable price.

Sleeper12

K.Flyer wrote:

That's fine, I wonder do they send an electrician to do all the work, or two people.

Most Shower installation companies in Dublin send a plumber and an electrician and one of these would be factory trained by at least one of the main shower manufacturers. Both arrive at the same time and finish the job together.

Having one company looking after the job usually works out cheaper. If the client has a problem with something they only have one number to ring. It's all down to them. The other way you could have the plumber calling to sort a problem and turns out its the electricians end so them homeowner has to sit in again waiting on the electrician. Or vice versa. It's just too messy.

anthonyos

Shower company's ain't that reliable in fact a few weeks ago I sorted out a job where one of the main shower companies in Dublins messed up and when contacted by the home owner they said it wasn't anything they had done and would not be returning.. The problem was the "factory trained engineer" mixed up the hot and cold supplies to the shower pump.

Sleeper12

But I do think that you are being a bit unfair in your comments towards honest tradesmen who can and will do a perfectly good job at fitting an electric shower for a reasonable price.

Sorry this part of your comment was missing before. If you read over my comments you'll see I suggested to OP that a dedicated shower company would be easier to deal with, they would know the work was up to standard & it would most likely work out cheaper. Flood said it would be dearer & started to slag off tradesmen who go on to further train & then specialize in something. He also suggested that shower installation companies try to con the homeowner saying that you need two tradesmen. He suggested that anyone with a drill can install an electric shower from scratch. This is obviously not true. I gave lots of examples of bad jobs & ways that tradesmen could leave a working shower & yet the installation would be all wrong. I also said that there are plenty of good tradesmen capable of doing the job. Its Harder for OP to find 2 insured, tax registered & good tradesmen than dealing directly with one company. Its much easier when shower companies have prices on their site rather than getting 3 or 4 tradesmen making appointments just to give quotes.

When a company is set up specializing in something its so much easier than dealing with individual tradesmen especially if the price for the dedicated company is as cheap or cheaper.

K.Flyer

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Both arrive at the same time and finish the job together.

If I have the job of fitting an electric shower I arrange the electrician to be there at the same time.

If the client has a problem with something they only have one number to ring. It's all down to them.

Yes, my number.

The other way you could have the plumber calling to sort a problem and turns out its the electricians end so them homeowner has to sit in again waiting on the electrician. Or vice versa. It's just too messy.

If, and it rarely ever happens (touches wood) I get a call back, a quick chat with with the customer can usually identify what the problem is and send the correct person out to deal with it. If there is uncertainty both go out and at a time that suits the customer.

K.Flyer

The point I am making is that you don't have to a company dedicated to a particular service sector to be able to offer and provide a quality service in that sector.

Sleeper12

K.Flyer wrote:

If, and it rarely ever happens (touches wood) I get a call back, a quick chat with with the customer can usually identify what the problem is and send the correct person out to deal with it. If there is uncertainty both go out and at a time that suits the customer.

Can you do it for 500 to 600 inc vat without even looking at the job?
Like I said shower installation companies can usually do it cheaper. They fit so many showers they buy them by the dozen.
It's just so much simpler for the homeowner.

K.Flyer

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Can you do it for 500 to 600 inc vat without even looking at the job?
Like I said shower installation companies can usually do it cheaper. They fit so many showers they buy them by the dozen.
It's just so much simpler for the homeowner.

Being honest, not for 500 without looking. But I always prefer to see the house first unless I am familiar with their layout.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

He suggested that anyone with a drill can install an electric shower from scratch. This is obviously not true. I gave lots of examples of bad jobs & ways that tradesmen could leave a working shower & yet the installation would be all wrong.

On this I completely agree with you.

Flood

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A shower installed by a trained shower engineer statistically gives less trouble & has a longer lifespan than a shower that a non engineer installs. How often do you hear plumbers saying that the tritons are louder than a mira even though they use the same motor. An engineer knows it's down to the acoustics of the wall. They learn how to compensate for this.

How does a so called shower engineer compensate for this oh wise one?

Sleeper12

Flood wrote:

How does a so called shower engineer compensate for this oh wise one?

Sometimes you can't and sometimes you can. The simplest one is use 5 screws instead of 2. 2 screws are usually fine on a concrete wall . The reason they have 5 holes for screws is not that it needs 5 screws to hold it two the wall but because sometimes 5 screws will change the frequency of the vibration.
Sometimes you can use a different wall in the shower. The Shower pole doesn't have to be on the same wall as the shower unit.