Naval EU Mission to mediterranean - The great migrant disaster

sparky42

Reports on IMO that Aoife is going to the Maltese while Emer has been taken over by the Nigerian navy.

roundymac

Yes Simon Coveney has confirmed in the Examiner (19th Feb) that the Aoife is to be transfered to the Maltese navy to help them with the current situtation in the Med regarding refugee's etc.

Savage93

roundymac wrote: »

Yes Simon Coveney has confirmed in the Examiner (19th Feb) that the Aoife is to be transfered to the Maltese navy to help them with the current situtation in the Med regarding refugee's etc.

That's fantastic, we are so well off and our naval service is so well equipped that we can give away ships. Maybe i DREAMT THE LAST 7 YEARS , IMF, EU TROIKA, austerity etc.

source

Savage93 wrote: »

That's fantastic, we are so well off and our naval service is so well equipped that we can give away ships. Maybe i DREAMT THE LAST 7 YEARS , IMF, EU TROIKA, austerity etc.

Aoife has come to the end of its service life, is not capable of continuing service in the rough north Atlantic. A few years pootling around the med looking out for refugees won't be as taxing on her.

Savage93

source wrote: »

Aoife has come to the end of its service life, is not capable of continuing service in the rough north Atlantic. A few years pootling around the med looking out for refugees won't be as taxing on her.

No issues with that whatsoever but that's no reason why she should be given away for free. Even if she made €50,000 scrap it should go back into DF

Morpheus

were helping another EU country defend its borders and consequently the borders of europe, of which we are a part. unless you have your head buried in the sand, you may have noticed that isis is on the southern mediterranean coasts and a few hundred miles from europe.

Malta is a very small country with a small GDP and dependent on other countries to help them out and now we share interests in handling the refugee flow and humanitarian crisis along with the risk of ISIS from north africa and syria, we have very close military ties with them and their officer corps trains in the curragh with our own cadets.

IrishTrajan

Jawgap wrote: »

The question is not really about modernising, it's about whether our resources and capacities match our security needs - and possibly with the exception of bits of the NS, they do. ISIS is not a threat to this country, despite what certain papers might be suggesting.

The refugees dying in the Mediterranean also doesn't affect us, but we just gave away LÉ Aoife to the Maltese.

And ISIS may not pose a direct threat to us at the moment, but it will pose an existential threat in the future, if left unchecked. But I'm sure you know better than the Western policy makers.

Jawgap wrote: »

Yeah, but those Bears are not a threat - they're monitored as soon as they depart Engels, they don't carry any outward ordinance and they broadcast in the clear.

Plus even if we procured 20 squadrons of fast jets would that stop them?

The Yanks have the most advanced air force in the world, the best radar coverage and a robust approach to dealing with incursions - and it doesn't stop the Russians giving them a poke around Alaska and the Aleutians (and even California) every now and again so what makes people think they'd stop the flights just because Paddy gets a few jets.

Plus there's the cost of developing and maintaining a QRF capacity - you'd need at least 24 jets and 2 or 3 tankers. There's no point in having only a part time response or not having the capacity to stay on station with them if they do arrive into air space controlled by Ireland.

The Tuploves were a threat. Not because they had onboard weapons (the nuclear warhead aside, even inactive it poses a significant risk), but because radar wouldn't see them and a plane just plow right into them.

The fast jets would allow us to shadow them/escort them, and our aircraft would have transponders on, so they can.. You know, be seen by civilian aircraft. It's not about stopping them, it's about ensuring that we don't need to rely on Britain to do it for us.

IrishTrajan

Savage93 wrote: »

No issues with that whatsoever but that's no reason why she should be given away for free. Even if she made €50,000 scrap it should go back into DF

I disagree. Keeping European markets stable is a core interest of the Irish State. If migrants start flooding through Europe, and ISIS does cause instability in Italy/Europe, Irish exports will suffer.

It's best for everyone if the E.U. remains stable, and if that means giving a ship away (the other one only sold for €300,000 at auction).

shanered

IrishTrajan wrote: »

The refugees dying in the Mediterranean also doesn't affect us, but we just gave away LÉ Aoife to the Maltese.

And ISIS may not pose a direct threat to us at the moment, but it will pose an existential threat in the future, if left unchecked. But I'm sure you know better than the Western policy makers.




The Tuploves were a threat. Not because they had onboard weapons (the nuclear warhead aside, even inactive it poses a significant risk), but because radar wouldn't see them and a plane just plow right into them.

The fast jets would allow us to shadow them/escort them, and our aircraft would have transponders on, so they can.. You know, be seen by civilian aircraft. It's not about stopping them, it's about ensuring that we don't need to rely on Britain to do it for us.

For some reason i would be more inclined to think that the russian pilots would be able to manouever aroimd a commercial airliner if there was one coming their way.

IrishTrajan

shanered wrote: »

For some reason i would be more inclined to think that the russian pilots would be able to manouever aroimd a commercial airliner if there was one coming their way.

Ah, Shanered comes out of the woodwork because someone might agree with him.

Humans make mistakes, friend.

Ren2k7

shanered wrote: »

For some reason i would be more inclined to think that the russian pilots would be able to manouever aroimd a commercial airliner if there was one coming their way.

You know, if those Ruskies really wanted to ensure commercial liners didn't plow right into them they would, you know, keep their transponders on and file a flight plan with the Irish Aviation Authority. Ah but yeah, sure the pilots of those Bears could just fly around civil airliners right? :rolleyes:

Ren2k7

roundymac wrote: »

Yes Simon Coveney has confirmed in the Examiner (19th Feb) that the Aoife is to be transfered to the Maltese navy to help them with the current situtation in the Med regarding refugee's etc.

I'm glad we can help out in anyway possible. Given how little we got for Emer I don't mind if we donate the Aoife to a country that faces huge pressures in illegal migrant crossings.

Though ideally the EU would have created a dedicated European Border Guards Force by now that had full authority to detain and return vessels to Libya. And not merely a force full of seconded naval/coast guard vessels and servicemen from member states either.

IrishTrajan

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I'm glad we can help out in anyway possible. Given how little we got for Emer I don't mind if we donate the Aoife to a country that faces huge pressures in illegal migrant crossings.

Though ideally the EU would have created a dedicated European Border Guards Force by now that had full authority to detain and return vessels to Libya. And not merely a force full of seconded naval/coast guard vessels and servicemen from member states either.

I would disagree. It's easier for countries in the Mediterranean to provide already experienced sailors as part of an EBGF, rather than starting from scratch.

Britain would also be quite like to block the proposal.

Jawgap

IrishTrajan wrote: »

The refugees dying in the Mediterranean also doesn't affect us, but we just gave away LÉ Aoife to the Maltese.

And ISIS may not pose a direct threat to us at the moment, but it will pose an existential threat in the future, if left unchecked. But I'm sure you know better than the Western policy makers.




The Tuploves were a threat. Not because they had onboard weapons (the nuclear warhead aside, even inactive it poses a significant risk), but because radar wouldn't see them and a plane just plow right into them.

The fast jets would allow us to shadow them/escort them, and our aircraft would have transponders on, so they can.. You know, be seen by civilian aircraft. It's not about stopping them, it's about ensuring that we don't need to rely on Britain to do it for us.

Bears have a radar profile equivalent to side of a barn - their transponders weren't on so they couldn't be identified by the ATC software but they could certainly be seen. Not to mention that they are tracked as soon as they leave Engels by RNoAF before - usually - being handed off to the RAF.

Plus they broadcast in the clear so no one in the RNoAF or RAF (or the NATO air control centre) gets twitchy about what they're up to - encrypted comms would be a sign of something sinister.

....and ISIS will never be a threat to us - it may inadvertently attack Irish interest abroad - but that's as far as it will go.

Tabnabs

Well, she'll be going after illegal emigrants and people traffickers rather than pirates, and it looks like the Med is as far as she'll get, but the Eithne is off over the horizon for a while.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0505/698756-mediterranean-migrants/

roundymac

Yes, saw her at the oil warf yesterday, seemed to be a lot of activity for a bank holiday.

Larbre34

The best of luck to her and her crew, its bound to be a very challenging mission, from a human tragedy point of view.

Its a good thing for Ireland to be involved in these sorts of missions, if we have the capability. No doubt they will represent the defence forces and the nation with exemplary effort, hopefully they will all come back safe and sound at the end of the deployment.

IrishTrajan

Eithne is most likely candidate to be sent to the Mediterranean

expectationlost

It is no time for heel-dragging - lives are waiting to be saved http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/it-is-no-time-for-heeldragging-lives-are-waiting-to-be-saved-31209776.html Eoghan O Neachtain

As the crisis is outside our jurisdiction, international law means officials from the Departments of Defence, Justice and Foreign Affairs must agree a memorandum of understanding with the Maltese and Italian authorities regarding the exact nature and conduct of Ireland's humanitarian response.

who is dragging heels?

descision by cabinet on tuesday

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0509/700001-le-eithne-migrant/

The Minister for Defence Simon Coveney has said it would be ready by Friday

thought he said that last week

Morpheus

new thread to consolidate posts on this issue

Larbre34

The EU has petitioned the UN to allow EU forces to engage the traffickers boats, in Libyan waters. The Libyan Government (this week's Govt at any rate) has said it will oppose the move, and of course the Russians and Chinese might block it anyway for the craic.

However, if the task force were to receive a mandate to pro-actively destroy craft and hobble the traffickers, that puts Ireland between a rock and hard place. Even if Eithne is not involved in action to destroy craft, it will be part of the combined force, it will have to be armed for defensive purposes, and it will be a big fat grey target in the Med, for any sort of islamic militant crack pot, or disgruntled trafficker with a surplus RPG on his dinghy.

I can imagine this is causing some difficulty at Cabinet level, as the anti-war / pro-neutrality crowd will be straight out to oppose it.

Larbre34

Eithne to sail for the Med on Saturday apparently. James Joyce due to arrive on Sunday. Interesting times.

source

Larbre34 wrote: »

Eithne to sail for the Med on Saturday apparently. James Joyce due to arrive on Sunday. Interesting times.

Source?

BoJack Horseman

source wrote: »

Source?

http://www.thejournal.ie/ship-le-eithne-help-north-africa-europe-2099026-May2015/

THE CABINET TODAY confirmed that it would be sending an Irish Navy vessel to the Mediterranean on a humanitarian patrol.

The LÉ Eithne will be assisting with the ongoing migration crisis in the region that has seen hundreds killed in major drowning incidents in recent weeks.

Minister for Defence Simon Coveney gained cabinet approval for deploying the ship earlier today.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Eithne to sail for the Med on Saturday apparently. James Joyce due to arrive on Sunday. Interesting times.

Don't think we'll see JJ that soon, she's only getting out on the 17th I thought, I would have thought the Navy would demand another shakedown trial before they took her?

sparky42

I see in the news that Coveney expects our commitment to last until September, with Eithne deployed for 2 months and then replaced with another ship. Should be a good learning experience for both the crews and the Navy as a whole.

KingBrian2

In other "related" news French, Italian, British and Maltese Navies are doing a great job in saving thousands of lives off the European Continent. Long may their good work be remembered for what it is. Helping people lost and see. This is heroic work and more countries should be proud to help save these migrants in the sea or by processing and eventually finding sanctuary for these new arrivals.

BoJack Horseman

KingBrian2 wrote: »

finding sanctuary

Sanctuary from what?
These are all economic migrants.

KingBrian2

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

KingBrian2 wrote: »

finding sanctuary /quote]

Sanctuary from what?
These are all economic migrants.

Their looking for a home a place to lie their head.

BoJack Horseman

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Their looking for a home a place to lie their head.

Which would be Africa I guess.

roundymac

The Brits intend to send them back and so should we We can't even provide house's for our own people FFS.

Larbre34

roundymac wrote: »

The Brits intend to send them back and so should we We can't even provide house's for our own people FFS.

You're missing the point of this thread, this is about a naval deployment by Ireland.

There is no question of bringing refugees directly back to Ireland on the ship anyway, they will be taken to reception centres in Italy and Malta. The EU proposals for member states to accept a quota of refugees after they have been received at their landing point is an entirely different argument for the politicians to get into.

donvito99

roundymac wrote: »

The Brits intend to send them back and so should we We can't even provide house's for our own people FFS.

The "Brits" don't intend to do anything at the moment. And the EU has as its ultimate objectives the goal of preventing these people from making the crossing in the first place.

The matter at hand is not sending them back but from preventing hundreds from drowning.

mikeym

roundymac wrote: »

The Brits intend to send them back and so should we We can't even provide house's for our own people FFS.

The refugees wouldnt be able to hack the Eithne

Boreas

The real issue here is that according to the UN the current population of Sub-Saharan Africa is 950,000 and they project it will grow to between 1,575,000 - 1,850,000 by 2040. If economic growth in the region doesn't at least match that rate of expansion it is inevitable, and perfectly understandable, that a large number of people will want to leave the area to find better economic opportunities elsewhere.

Not all of the people leaving Sub-Saharan Africa will want to come to Europe, it's likely that economic growth in India, China, etc. will make those countries attractive destinations but many people will want to come to the EU.

The EU needs to plan now for how it will handle that situation. I know some people advocate allowing fairly large scale migration into the EU but no matter how many people we allow in there will be a huge number of people without a legal route into Europe and desperate people will still risk their lives to make it in by illegal means.

The obvious solution is higher levels of economic growth in Africa but this will be extremely difficult to achieve given the ongoing governance issues and that's without thinking about the environmental impact. Some countries are doing better than others of course.

We could think about discussing population control but that basically comes down to white people telling black people to have fewer children and that is a politically impossible conversation to even try to have. For some people even mentioning it sounds racist.

So, what we are seeing in the Mediterranean this year isn't some aberration, it's the new normal.

Larbre34

Yes, all an issue, but this is just the naval discussion, the rest is politics and/or economics

ectoraige

Hopefully the crew all stay safe and are well supported, large scale recovery operations can be very traumatic.

expectationlost

LÉ Eithne to assist in Mediterranean operations http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0512/700656-le-eithne/ "The LÉ Eithne was built in Ireland as Helicopter Patrol Vessel." but doesn't use em anymore? says wikipedia, would a helicopter be any use now?

Heraldoffreeent

expectationlost wrote: »

LÉ Eithne to assist in Mediterranean operations http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0512/700656-le-eithne/ "The LÉ Eithne was built in Ireland as Helicopter Patrol Vessel." but doesn't use em anymore? says wikipedia, would a helicopter be any use now?

We don't have a Heli capeable of shipboard operations, and I'm thinking that it would be a hindrance more than a help in this case.
As it is the free deck space is better utilised for locating the PAX,were a chopper embarked, you couldn't have civis anywhere near it.

For pickups the Germans and italians seem to be using fastboats or RHibs, and the brits are using LC's rather than choppers.

For eyes over the Horizon, it might be a benefit, but the benefits wouldn't outweigh the extra hassle.

Theres a lot of ships down there now, and the Italian and Maltese choppers can provide a lot of the Intel needed.

sparky42

expectationlost wrote: »

LÉ Eithne to assist in Mediterranean operations http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0512/700656-le-eithne/ "The LÉ Eithne was built in Ireland as Helicopter Patrol Vessel." but doesn't use em anymore? says wikipedia, would a helicopter be any use now?

We don't have the skill set on board or in the Air Corps, the helicopter that's navalised (no folding rotors, crash rated fuel tanks etc), the deck now has a crane permantly mounted (and now has another Rib based on the deck). So no, if different decisions were made when she was made along with the follow ons getting built things would be different but that's missed us.

Larbre34

And she's off. Best of luck to them with the mission.

roundymac

Coming down towards the North West coast of Spain right now, doing 14.3 knots.

roundymac

This was bound to happen.
ww.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32771210

mikeym

roundymac wrote: »

Coming down towards the North West coast of Spain right now, doing 14.3 knots.

The people smugglers will be able to find the ship handy enough.

Heraldoffreeent

mikeym wrote: »

The people smugglers will be able to find the ship handy enough.

Ireeesh Guys neeeeer Span? Qweeeeeek qweeeeek!!!

roundymac

Just passed through the Straits of Gibralter.

sparky42

roundymac wrote: »

Just passed through the Straits of Gibralter.

Did she stop off for tax free shopping?:D

But serioursly, good to see this going ahead, given where she's meant to be operating I guess we won't see much sinking actions but I hope we see something...

Larbre34

sparky42 wrote: »

given where she's meant to be operating I guess we won't see much sinking actions but I hope we see something...

Huh? She will be under EU NAVFOR command for the humanitarian deployments presumably, but she hasn't been tasked with sinking traffickers boats and I couldnt imagine her being used in an offensive capacity in a million years.

The EU proposal will probably be vetoed by the UN SC and then it will be a matter for non-neutral countries within the EU to decide to approach Libya and take on the smugglers at source, probably with attack helicopters rather than littoral boats and RHIBs

Could you imagine the outcry from the lefties here if Eithne started shooting up fibreglass skiffs with the 20mm's!

Heraldoffreeent

Larbre34 wrote: »

Huh? She will be under EU NAVFOR command for the humanitarian deployments presumably, but she hasn't been tasked with sinking traffickers boats and I couldnt imagine her being used in an offensive capacity in a million years.

The EU proposal will probably be vetoed by the UN SC and then it will be a matter for non-neutral countries within the EU to decide to approach Libya and take on the smugglers at source, probably with attack helicopters rather than littoral boats and RHIBs

Could you imagine the outcry from the lefties here if Eithne started shooting up fibreglass skiffs with the 20mm's!

It's a bilateral arrangement with the Italians, nothing to do with EU navfor or FRONTEX.

Tabnabs

Not often (enough) an Irish ensign is seen here

Tabnabs

https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/603946935469342722

That didn't take long!