LGBTI in Sport

clear thinking

Interesting article here and particularly damning of Irish sports culture toward gays.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/revealed-ireland-the-second-worst-offender-when-it-comes-to-homophobia-in-sport-31210431.html

I'd like to think that Athletics isn't as bad as the other sports, and that's my experience anyway.

My own view is if you're a team, you want the best players so why would you give a damn.

Similalrly in athletics, club and country should want the best athletes and who you go out with should have no place in determining if you can participate without fear or favour.

Obviously the article is timed with the referendum but maybe the mods can keep an eye that it stays on topic.

libelula

In athletics I've never ever seen an issue, but speaking as a self confessed GAA head I would suggest that it's not as much of an issue in athletics as it would be in your large team sports such as football/hurling/soccer etc. Athletics just doesn't have the same level of intolerance that other sports are working so hard to stomp out.
It's only in the past few years that I've gotten to know and been in the company of a lot of runners, but have found them on a whole to be the most encouraging, open-minded, non-judgemental, and all round lovely group of sportspeople I've met. Couldn't see a gay person having an issue whatsoever in my local club. Unless they were leading the intervals too fast of course :pac:

Purely my own experience though

Dubgal72

Two women I used to train with in the eighties/early nineties came out as a couple around the early-mid nineties. No one batted an eyelid in the running community. I don't want to generalise but most of the runners I know seem to be open-minded and tolerant (unless they're keeping their bigotry in the closet ).

rom

Irish society is pretty unaccepting of everything. It was only easter time this year that the practice the a teacher could not be sacked for being gay as it did not adhere to the ethos of a school rule was removed though it would hard for it to be acted on. Then again http://www.thejournal.ie/equality-tribunal-ruling-1889466-Jan2015/

I had a guy at work that is about 40 say that he moved to Cork to raise a family as their were too many foreigners in Dublin claiming benefits off the state. When I told him there are lots of Irish claiming benefits he didn't have an issue with them.

On topic team sports are going to be more of a place that this is going to be an issue compared to an individual sport where they can answer the haters by beating them. In a team environment there is going to be a herd mentality so the leaders views are going to be given more voice.

I think people only care about the results in athletics and I think if Panti Bliss turned up at any club and could run a good 10k time no one would bat an eyelid. I heard one guy in the club comment to me about he presumed a guy in the club was gay due to what he posted on FB. I just said to him "What does it matter to you?" I think this sort of thing simply doesn't happen normally.

rovers_runner

Ah yes, so the flavor of the month has reached sports now......
Robbie Keane, Tipperary hurlers, everyone has to have an opinion or else......

When people look back on the lead up to the vote in the future I'm sure the aggression on the Yes side will become apparent, however the bandwagon must roll on....

Gay marriage for some, miniature American flags for others.

cjt156

...so apparently it's not just team sports...

walshb

rovers_runner wrote: »

Ah yes, so the flavor of the month has reached sports now......
Robbie Keane,.

.

At least we didn't have to listen to Robbie deliver his plea!

Every cloud........

average_runner

rovers_runner wrote: »

Ah yes, so the flavor of the month has reached sports now......
Robbie Keane, Tipperary hurlers, everyone has to have an opinion or else......

When people look back on the lead up to the vote in the future I'm sure the aggression on the Yes side will become apparent, however the bandwagon must roll on....

Gay marriage for some, miniature American flags for others.

So over the top.

PaulieC

walshb wrote: »

At least we didn't have to listen to Robbie deliver his plea!

Every cloud........

There is no way on earth that Robbie wrote that 'heartfelt' letter himself.

average_runner

PaulieC wrote: »

There is no way on earth that Robbie wrote that 'heartfelt' letter himself.

You think his wife did it for him, don't you?

Greenmachine

Never occurred to that intolerance would be any different in sport, then again I don't play any team sports.

ThisRegard

average_runner wrote: »

You think his wife did it for him, don't you?

I haven't read his letter, but Dave Fanning now reads her pieces from the Saturday paper instead of that other empty headed vessel that he used to, and from hearing what she wrote on Saturday and what I heard about this letter, I'd be surprised if she wrote it.

DocQismyJesus

rovers_runner wrote: »

Ah yes, so the flavor of the month has reached sports now......
Robbie Keane, Tipperary hurlers, everyone has to have an opinion or else......

When people look back on the lead up to the vote in the future I'm sure the aggression on the Yes side will become apparent, however the bandwagon must roll on....

Gay marriage for some, miniature American flags for others.

Not really they'll just look back and laugh at the bigots.

Whether it is 1968 and Tommie Smith raising his fist on the podium or now- people having the courage to stick up for others who've been previously denied rights and persecuted ain't flavour of the month/ it's just being a decent human

walshb

ThisRegard wrote: »

other empty headed vessel that he used to, .

Who was that?

Hannibal Smith

rovers_runner wrote: »

Ah yes, so the flavor of the month has reached sports now......
Robbie Keane, Tipperary hurlers, everyone has to have an opinion or else......

When people look back on the lead up to the vote in the future I'm sure the aggression on the Yes side will become apparent, however the bandwagon must roll on....

Gay marriage for some, miniature American flags for others.

I hope they do. No matter how the vote goes, I'll look back and know i fought my damn hardest for what was right. The fact that there is a no 'campaign' is sickening enough.

Anyhow not the place. On with the running talk

tayto lover

Why do people think that the Gay issue is at the forefront of everyone's thoughts?
I played most sports but now only play golf and 5-a-side football and I have never heard mention of it from anyone. I don't honestly think people care if someone is gay or not. We seem to be inundated with threads on it recently but maybe this is because of the upcoming Referendum.

libelula

tayto lover wrote: »

We seem to be inundated with threads on it recently but maybe this is because of the upcoming Referendum.

First thread I've seen in this forum, and it's not a debate on the referendum.

tayto lover

libelula wrote: »

First thread I've seen in this forum, and it's not a debate on the referendum.

I was talking about Boards.ie in general.

walshb

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

The fact that there is a no 'campaign' is sickening enough.

That is nonsense!

Clearlier

tayto lover wrote: »

Why do people think that the Gay issue is at the forefront of everyone's thoughts?
I played most sports but now only play golf and 5-a-side football and I have never heard mention of it from anyone. I don't honestly think people care if someone is gay or not. We seem to be inundated with threads on it recently but maybe this is because of the upcoming Referendum.

Obviously the upcoming referendum has it in people's minds. IMO most people don't give it a second thought. Those that do are the ones that for whatever reason have an issue with it. As an aside the biggest concern for the yes campaign is that because most people simply don't care about other people's sexuality they'll not be exercised enough to vote.

I think that athletics is fine with LGB but might have issues with T and I. There were some pretty hateful statements made about Semenya. Tolerance was not top of everybody's agenda while that saga was being played out. Most people are fine when they're not being threatened but when they are it can be a different story.

I'm not aware of any high level Transgendered runner but I'd be concerned about how they would be treated, particularly someone who has transitioned from male to female. I can and do hope that there will be tolerance and understanding when it happens but my expectations are maybe a little lower.

ThisRegard

walshb wrote: »

Who was that?

Georgia Salpa I think it was. He used to read extracts from her column when doing the paper reviews for the laugh.

ThisRegard

tayto lover wrote: »

We seem to be inundated with threads on it recently but maybe this is because of the upcoming Referendum.

You never visit this forum, but pop up on all threads on this subject.

rovers_runner

DocQismyJesus wrote: »

Not really they'll just look back and laugh at the bigots.

Whether it is 1968 and Tommie Smith raising his fist on the podium or now- people having the courage to stick up for others who've been previously denied rights and persecuted ain't flavour of the month/ it's just being a decent human

I wouldn't compare it to the civil rights movement especially given that it's evident that with all the recent cop vs young black male incidents in America things really haven't changed in the eyes of many there.
How many rights acts were passed in America before anything changed?


My point about the media (INM in particular) is that there is a campaign being run by people with an agenda (DOB -> FG) who want a certain result to "send out the right message" to paraphrase Robbie Keane.
These sportspeople/musicians/celebrities are just vessels and for them it's the latest thing to be quoted on.
You honestly think Robbie Keane, Cian Healy or Kieran Bergin will lose a minute of sleep over this?

It should be left to people directly linked to both sides to put forward their arguments, i.e. people who actually campaign for gay rights year in year out.

tayto lover

ThisRegard wrote: »

You never visit this forum, but pop up on all threads on this subject.

It caught my eye as yet another new thread on the same subject.
There's one on the Farming Forum too.
Impossible to miss them all.

DocQismyJesus

rovers_runner wrote: »

I wouldn't compare it to the civil rights movement especially given that it's evident that with all the recent cop vs young black male incidents in America things really haven't changed in the eyes of many there.
How many rights acts were passed in America before anything changed?


My point about the media (INM in particular) is that there is a campaign being run by people with an agenda (DOB -> FG) who want a certain result to "send out the right message" to paraphrase Robbie Keane.
These sportspeople/musicians/celebrities are just vessels and for them it's the latest thing to be quoted on.
You honestly think Robbie Keane, Cian Healy or Kieran Bergin will lose a minute of sleep over this?

It should be left to people directly linked to both sides to put forward their arguments, i.e. people who actually campaign for gay rights or year in year out.

Homosexuality was a criminal act in Ireland as recently in 1993 so I think the civil rights comparison is abt. US dynamics regarding class/race and the police are a subject I have a huge amount of knowledge about actually but that is a whole different thread, in a whole different forum.

I think its a huge sign of progress that sports- in many ways the biggest bastion of testosterone and passive homophobia has started to realise equality is important. Still an awful long way to go there as how many football/ rugby/ athletics stars can you name who have come out but still many sports (including athletics) have made some positive progress over the last few years

As far as how this all plays out in Athletics- I can only say from a personal view that I think runners tend to be a mostly tolerant sort. That said homophobic "banter" while out on a run with a group of other lads does happen but I would say hopefully is gradually dying out with better education/ changing social attitudes...

rom

The whole thing kind of reminds me of this way social media bandwagon has gone on.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/04/15/dublin-girl-cant-believe-it-has-been-1-year-since-her-bring-back-our-girls-status-got-130-likes/

Posting about it on facebook/changing your profile photo etc is not going to change someones mind.

The fact that there is a no 'campaign' is sickening enough.

I am going to vote yes but this kind of thing annoys me. We live in a democracy where people are allowed to express conflicting views even if it offends you. I am offended that you think people should not have that right.

desertcircus

rovers_runner wrote: »

My point about the media (INM in particular) is that there is a campaign being run by people with an agenda (DOB -> FG) who want a certain result to "send out the right message" to paraphrase Robbie Keane.
These sportspeople/musicians/celebrities are just vessels and for them it's the latest thing to be quoted on.
You honestly think Robbie Keane, Cian Healy or Kieran Bergin will lose a minute of sleep over this?

It should be left to people directly linked to both sides to put forward their arguments, i.e. people who actually campaign for gay rights or year in year out.

I don't see any reason to doubt that the celebrities involved are sincere in their support. Does Cian Healy lose sleep over it? Doubtful; I'd suspect he sleeps like the dead given the amount of physical work he goes through. Does Cian Healy feel that gay couples should have equal rights to straight couples? I see no reason to doubt his sincerity.

As for the idea that the campaign should be fronted by longstanding campaigners - the whole point of the Yes campaign has been about trying to convince people to reexamine their reasons for leaning towards the No side. A rugby fan who leans towards No may reflexively dismiss an appeal from Panti as obviously biased; it's a lot harder to do that when it's a married father and general hero like Brian O'Driscoll. Same for football fans and Robbie Keane. The entire point is to illustrate that voting Yes isn't the preserve of gay people; it's something that lots of people feel passionately about even though it'll never effect them directly.

Clearlier

rovers_runner wrote: »

These sportspeople/musicians/celebrities are just vessels and for them it's the latest thing to be quoted on.
You honestly think Robbie Keane, Cian Healy or Kieran Bergin will lose a minute of sleep over this?

It should be left to people directly linked to both sides to put forward their arguments, i.e. people who actually campaign for gay rights or year in year out.

Like the rest of society some will care deeply and most won't care one way or the other. It's pretty insulting to suggest that they can't think for themselves and are just vessels for others though.

daydorunrun

rom wrote: »

The whole thing kind of reminds me of this way social media bandwagon has gone on.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/04/15/dublin-girl-cant-believe-it-has-been-1-year-since-her-bring-back-our-girls-status-got-130-likes/

Posting about it on facebook/changing your profile photo etc is not going to change someones mind.


I am going to vote yes but this kind of thing annoys me. We live in a democracy where people are allowed to express conflicting views even if it offends you. I am offended that you think people should not have that right.

+1
I will be voting No but feel as though I'd be lynched for mentioning it anywhere.

ThisRegard

daydorunrun wrote: »

+1
I will be voting No but feel as though I'd be lynched for mentioning it anywhere.

I think the reason is that most people on the Yes side feel that they have yet to see a logical reason as to vote No, other than one based on religious beliefs.

Clearlier

rom wrote: »

The whole thing kind of reminds me of this way social media bandwagon has gone on.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/04/15/dublin-girl-cant-believe-it-has-been-1-year-since-her-bring-back-our-girls-status-got-130-likes/

Posting about it on facebook/changing your profile photo etc is not going to change someones mind.


I am going to vote yes but this kind of thing annoys me. We live in a democracy where people are allowed to express conflicting views even if it offends you. I am offended that you think people should not have that right.

Perhaps the OP did mean it in the way you interpreted it but I don't think that finding a campaign sickening is the same as saying that it shouldn't be allowed. It's perfectly possible to find someone's position to be utterly ridiculous and abhorrent whilst defending their right to hold it.

daydorunrun

ThisRegard wrote: »

I think the reason is that most people on the Yes side feel that they have yet to see a logical reason as to vote No, other than one based on religious beliefs.

Very true- in fact anti church sentiment feeds into the Yes campaign.

I am not anti gay or gay rights. I am not religious.
For me it's about family-

Under natural circumstances 2 men or 2 women cannot conceive a child- I didn't decide that nature made us that way.

Are we really better judges than mother nature?

desertcircus

daydorunrun wrote: »

+1
I will be voting No but feel as though I'd be lynched for mentioning it anywhere.

I don't bear any ill will to No voters as a group; I think they're wrong, but the speed of the move to LGBT equality has been much more rapid than in other countries, and I find it hard to truly vilify someone for having difficulty adjusting at the same pace.

As for the No campaign, though, I despise them. They've produced nothing but barefaced lies, mendacity and poison in a desperate effort to prevent the fundamental decency of Irish people from kicking in and voting marriage equality into the constitution.

All that is, admittedly, a little off topic.

desertcircus

daydorunrun wrote: »

Very true- in fact anti church sentiment feeds into the Yes campaign.

I am not anti gay or gay rights. I am not religious.
For me it's about family-

Under natural circumstances 2 men or 2 women cannot conceive a child- I didn't decide that nature made us that way.

Are we really better judges than mother nature?

Presumably you think that sterile people should be banned from marrying, and that women past the menopause should be banned from marrying as well.

DocQismyJesus

daydorunrun wrote: »

Very true- in fact anti church sentiment feeds into the Yes campaign.

I am not anti gay or gay rights. I am not religious.
For me it's about family-

Under natural circumstances 2 men or 2 women cannot conceive a child- I didn't decide that nature made us that way.

Are we really better judges than mother nature?

How exactly does gay marriage have any effect on your life?

Also if Mother Nature knows best, why did she make homosexuals at all?

Also- do you wear running shoes? I mean since Mother Nature made us barefoot surely this is the best/ most effective way to walk around/ run?

ThisRegard

daydorunrun wrote: »

Very true- in fact anti church sentiment feeds into the Yes campaign.

I am not anti gay or gay rights. I am not religious.
For me it's about family-

Under natural circumstances 2 men or 2 women cannot conceive a child- I didn't decide that nature made us that way.

Are we really better judges than mother nature?

But you're buying into the religious belief of what marriage is. Mother nature didn't define marriage either, the church did, followed by the state. Incidentally, not all married couples choose to have children, should their marriage be declared null and void as a result ?

It's the religious definition that says that the main reason you get married is to have kids.

For someone who says they're not religious, your beliefs in this are defined by religion.

Hannibal Smith

rom wrote: »

The whole thing kind of reminds me of this way social media bandwagon has gone on.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/04/15/dublin-girl-cant-believe-it-has-been-1-year-since-her-bring-back-our-girls-status-got-130-likes/

Posting about it on facebook/changing your profile photo etc is not going to change someones mind.


I am going to vote yes but this kind of thing annoys me. We live in a democracy where people are allowed to express conflicting views even if it offends you. I am offended that you think people should not have that right.

Conflicting views do not offend me. People saying one person shouldnt have the same options as another offends me. Claiming that is democracy offends me.

daydorunrun

desertcircus wrote: »

Presumably you think that sterile people should be banned from marrying, and that women past the menopause should be banned from marrying as well.

Of course not. Marriage isn't all about kids you know. I'm married 12 years and we don't have kids.

I believe gay couples should have every legal right that a married couple have. I just don't see why that can't be legislated in other ways.
I also believe that every child has the right to a mother......not 2 mothers ......not 2 dads.

ThisRegard

daydorunrun wrote: »

Of course not. Marriage isn't all about kids you know. I'm married 12 years and we don't have kids.

I believe gay couples should have every legal right that a married couple have. I just don't see why that can't be legislated in other ways.
I also believe that every child has the right to a mother......not 2 mothers ......not 2 dads.

You know it's nothing to do with referendum, right ? And you also contradict yourself.

Your real objection seems to be to same sex couples with kids, something that's already been legislated for.

annapr

daydorunrun wrote: »

Of course not. Marriage isn't all about kids you know. I'm married 12 years and we don't have kids.

I believe gay couples should have every legal right that a married couple have. I just don't see why that can't be legislated in other ways.
I also believe that every child has the right to a mother......not 2 mothers ......not 2 dads.

You are contradicting yourself, your first post referenced kids and family...

and again, if you believe gay couples should have every legal right that a married couple has... surely that includes the right to get married? another contradiction.

As for the right to mothers (and I assume fathers), that is completely irrelevant to the referendum.

desertcircus

daydorunrun wrote: »

Of course not. Marriage isn't all about kids you know. I'm married 12 years and we don't have kids.

I believe gay couples should have every legal right that a married couple have. I just don't see why that can't be legislated in other ways.
I also believe that every child has the right to a mother......not 2 mothers ......not 2 dads.

If marriage isn't all about kids, then what do kids have to do with whether people can get married? What does this referendum have to do with kids, given that the right of gay couples to adopt is dealt with under an entirely different law and this proposed amendment makes no changes to that law? If you think gay couples should have all the rights a married couple would have, why not just let them get married instead of engaging in ridiculous legal gymnastics?

Ososlo

it's ridiculous discussing this on an athletics forum ... unless you're sticking rigidly to discussing the topic raised on the OP (LGBTI in Sport)

DocQismyJesus

Ososlo wrote: »

it's ridiculous discussing this on an athletics forum ... unless you're sticking rigidly to discussing the topic raised on the OP (LGBTI in Sport)

Post reported (backseat modding)

tHE vAGGABOND

Interesting to see a totally level headed and reasonable discussion on this topic, and a lot of them resort to "your evil" "no...your the one who is evil"

The whole gay thing in sport is a bit of a mystery in running and by extension T&F. I totally understand why a soccer/Gaa/rugby player or player in a short like that would never come out due to the hate from crowds [if this means nothing to you, look up "footie chants" on twitter, some funny chants from football crowds, but if I said them to you in the pub, about your mum/dad/family/kids you would rightly want to punch me in the head]. But the fact I cant think of anyone openly gay at the top levels of running or T&F, I wonder if that culture exists within our sport?

Note, as we are here, given we are not allowed talk about anything but the most sterile running discussion on here these days, I really hope the mods let this totally reasonable thread open and going.

daydorunrun

ThisRegard wrote: »

You know it's nothing to do with referendum, right ? And you also contradict yourself.

Your real objection seems to be to same sex couples with kids, something that's already been legislated for.

That is true I suppose. It's probably an attachment to tradition. I am aware there are contradictions- I am still trying to figure out what is best for future generations. I suppose it's the fear of the unknown that has me more no than yes.
Before I cause a sh1t storm around here let me just say that I'm not a staunch No voter.
I do find it hard to know whats the best way to vote, consequently it's interesting to have my semi formed opinions critiqued.

libelula

DocQismyJesus wrote: »

Post reported (backseat modding)

:rolleyes:

DocQismyJesus

One of the best/ most multi talented athletes in US History Babe Dickerson Zaharias
http://drmirkin.com/histories-and-mysteries/babe-didrikson-zaharias-the-best-female-athlete.html

Also Bruce Jenner Gold Medal Decathlete would be representative of diverse communities within athletics

kit3

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Note, as we are here, given we are not allowed talk about anything but the most sterile running discussion on here these days, I really hope the mods let this totally reasonable thread open and going.

+1 - Just because we run doesn't mean we are one-dimensional people with no interest in what is going on around us & the position of sport in this is interesting.

DocQismyJesus

libelula wrote: »

:rolleyes:

FYI When I report a post I do it in the open as I'm not a believer in going and tattletaling to mods behind people's backs. Thats the only reason I wrote that post.

walshb

You gotta' love the no shame attitude of some!

desertcircus

Reactions differ between sports - there are pockets of bigotry and general idiocy in rugby, but by and large fans are fairly good. Nigel Owens is regarded more or less universally as the best ref in the world, and Gareth Thomas remains a legend in the game. I suspect that a major reason why we see so few out LGBTI athletes and sportspeople is that the biggest point of attrition in terms of participation - teenage years - is also the point in life at which a lot of LGBTI youth begin to identify, and also (certainly from my memory of school) the point when people are the most vicious and unpleasant to each other, and most cruel in putting down anyone different. The description from the guy who gave up rugby only to come back and play for the Warriors rings true - teenagers can be viciously unpleasant to anyone they perceive as different, and using "gay" as an insult is horribly familiar to anyone who went to a boy's school. If you were a gay teenager trying to decide whether to continue competing, would you really want to? It requires a mental resolve way beyond what a straight teenage athlete has to summon up.