Crossbreed ram

Youngshepherd

Doing a project for young scientist and I was just wondering does anyone have any experience using a crossbreed ram and what your thoughts on them are? I have a Suffolk x ram lamb that I'll be using.

Willfarman

Youngshepherd wrote: »

Doing a project for young scientist and I was just wondering does anyone have any experience using a crossbreed ram and what your thoughts on them are? I have a Suffolk x ram lamb that I'll be using.

I have no qualms about using crossbred Rams. I wouldn't be a fan of pedigree Suffolk sheep for eg.

Cran

Youngshepherd wrote: »

Doing a project for young scientist and I was just wondering does anyone have any experience using a crossbreed ram and what your thoughts on them are? I have a Suffolk x ram lamb that I'll be using.

Are you testing hybrid vigor? That would be reduced on a crossbred ram, bit less if crossbred after 2 pedigree sheep. Only other concern would think is inconsistency in offspring type, wouldn't be an issue if factory all lambs but if selling live be hard to get consistent bunch.

rangler1

Cran wrote: »

Are you testing hybrid vigor? That would be reduced on a crossbred ram, bit less if crossbred after 2 pedigree sheep. Only other concern would think is inconsistency in offspring type, wouldn't be an issue if factory all lambs but if selling live be hard to get consistent bunch.

Does cross breeding not increase hybrid vigour.
On using crossbred rams, you have to ensure the dam is a good sheep and comes from a line of good sheep because if you use a ram lamb that the mother is of unknown origin, ''sods law'' ( anything that can go wrong will go wrong) will ensure that the worst of the breeding will come through

Cran

rangler1 wrote: »

Does cross breeding not increase hybrid vigour.
On using crossbred rams, you have to ensure the dam is a good sheep and comes from a line of good sheep because if you use a ram lamb that the mother is of unknown origin, ''sods law'' ( anything that can go wrong will go wrong) will ensure that the worst of the breeding will come through

I believe hybrid vigor impact is depleted each cross done. So while say a first cross ram Texel x Charollais as an example gets full Hybrid vigor impact, its off-spring would have some but it would be depleted compared to first cross.

Must check out if thats correct been a long time since I read it.......

orm0nd

Cran wrote: »

I believe hybrid vigor impact is depleted each cross done. So while say a first cross ram Texel x Charollais as an example gets full Hybrid vigor impact, its off-spring would have some but it would be depleted compared to first cross.

Must check out if thats correct been a long time since I read it.......

I reckon you would have to go with a third breed on the cross, at least that's what recommended for cattle at some stage

ganmo

Cran wrote: »

I believe hybrid vigor impact is depleted each cross done. So while say a first cross ram Texel x Charollais as an example gets full Hybrid vigor impact, its off-spring would have some but it would be depleted compared to first cross.

Must check out if thats correct been a long time since I read it.......

First cross is best, and drops with the introduction of each breed(after the 7th breed not much changes)

As regards a crossbred ram...what he passes on to the next generation will not be as good as he is due to his hybrid vigor

rangler1

orm0nd wrote: »

I reckon you would have to go with a third breed on the cross, at least that's what recommended for cattle at some stage

Found this definition in plain English which would confirm that
Hybrid vigor :Increased vigor or other superior qualities arising from the crossbreeding of genetically different plants or animals. Also called heterosis.
heterosis:=the increase in growth, size, yield, or other characters in hybrids over those of the parents

Willfarman

A mongrel dog couldn't be killed with a cannon there that healthy compared to a pedigree dog.

Username John

Willfarman wrote: »

A mongrel dog couldn't be killed with a cannon there that healthy compared to a pedigree dog.

I am not sure what to say to that statement - its not that its untrue, but I dunno will it help a lad when he's looking at his miserable lambs in the field in Nov after feeding em creep for 2 months and they have all gone backwards...

I think cross breeds can be ok - but surely its the consistency that might catch you?
When you buy a ram you are trying to reduce the occurrence of certain things, and increase the occurrence of other good traits.
With a Pedigree, I would have though that rams breed for certain aspects, will have a lesser risk of their lambs not inheriting the good traits, as in theory - the good traits should come from their linkage and not just them...

At least that's how I always thought of it...

But - each to their own...

Green farmer

I've a very good crossbreed ram that I've been lucky with. I've also a pedigree ram that I'm equally as delighted with and feel he was worth every penny. Unfortunately I've had a pedigree that was a load of s***e, and a different cross breed ram that wasn't much better.

Pedigree rams should be better as long as you buy from a breeder that culls heavily and only sells the rams that are fit for purpose. What's a pedigree ram with bad genes, but covered up with meal going to leave behind after themselves ?

Dickie10

i have a texel ram with a touch of charrolais in him! anyone ever here this? leaves good texel type lambs but with a little bit of pink in ears and around eyes like a charrolais

Willfarman

Dickie10 wrote: »

i have a texel ram with a touch of charrolais in him! anyone ever here this? leaves good texel type lambs but with a little bit of pink in ears and around eyes like a charrolais

Be a great cross onto big Suffolk cross ewes? It is true what rangler said.if using a crossbred ram you need to see both his parents and I do run pedigree Rams too because if not the flock would get out of hand with all the mixes.. I keep my own replacement mostly.

farming93

The farmer I done placement with used to buy in a load of store lambs every year 500-1000 of them. He kept the fastest growing ones as rams to run with the ewe lambs I thought this was a very good idea especially after seeing some of the older rams he had kept. I asked him at the start why he done it and he said he went out and paid something like 700 euro for a p.b.r ram and didnt see the difference in the prices for the grades of lambs as you do with cattle so wouldnt do it again.

serfspup

well done youngshepherd and good luck with your project.
you may need to give us more information on your thesis

there are crossbreds and there are crossbreds .

there would be a huge variation if you used a mule ram (blue faced leicesterXblackface) on mule ewes some progney will have horns some will have pearl wool etc by comparison a ram like a suffolk charollais cross would have less variation in his progney out of mule ewes.

the obsession with pedigree is not universal the kiwi's have altered their romneys by introducing other breeds/traits and culling hard.

a large proprotion of the worlds sheep are relitively new'breeds'
polwarths,corridales,perendales,columbia,meatlinc,highlander,cambridge....belclare etc

there are a lot of 'pure bred' animals that are not what it says on their 'pedigree'

I am old enough to have seen suffolks that had a good shot of oxford down in them and remember when blue faced leicesters were blue,and I am sure texels are going to go through some 'selective breeding' that will look a lot like a cross with charollais(resulting in longer fleshier sheep (alas smaller headed and loss of the black teardrop that is worth thousands)

so much of pedigree breeding is just reproducing what went before and feeding the result even more than is good for it and then try to blow smoke up your ass about the great bloodlines which is just a euphimism for some other breeders paid a fortune for its ancestors.

it is interesting to see the number of crossbred/hybrid rams sold in Kelso (report is available online)and the rise of breeders like Logie Durno (look it up OP),Paul Slater etc in the UK.

Green farmer

The cross bred ram that I've been lucky with is home bred. I put all the ram lambs born that spring into a pen one august day and picked the one who turned out the best and weighed the most. The logic was if his genes weren't good , he wouldn't have grown as well.

Youngshepherd

Thanks lads, not sure what breed the ewe is shes definetly a suffolk crossed with a white face ewe, all lambs would be going to the factory but id be interested to keep a ewe lamb and see how she does i read that ewes off of cross rams have a higher milk yield? This could be wrong but i thinks its what it said! Im testing for everything the idea is ill have 30 ewes with a pb ram and 30 with the x ram all ewes will be fed the same amount of meal and theyll all be body scored from tupping through till lambing ones with the same body score(hopefully all of them)will be tested on one another so the pb rams offspring vs the crossbred rams. Ill be testing birth weight and weight through to weaning and finishing weight. Finally ill be asking the two farmers who are supplying the ewes(have my own but i thought i might be biased with the result)if theyve seen any diffrence in them. Doesnt matter one bit what the result is im just doing this because ive an interest in it plus it makes for a good project!

serfspup

Green farmer wrote: »

The cross bred ram that I've been lucky with is home bred. I put all the ram lambs born that spring into a pen one august day and picked the one who turned out the best and weighed the most. The logic was if his genes weren't good , he wouldn't have grown as well.

didn't you just pick the one with the best head?

Willfarman

Youngshepherd wrote: »

Thanks lads, not sure what breed the ewe is shes definetly a suffolk crossed with a white face ewe, all lambs would be going to the factory but id be interested to keep a ewe lamb and see how she does i read that ewes off of cross rams have a higher milk yield? This could be wrong but i thinks its what it said! Im testing for everything the idea is ill have 30 ewes with a pb ram and 30 with the x ram all ewes will be fed the same amount of meal and theyll all be body scored from tupping through till lambing ones with the same body score(hopefully all of them)will be tested on one another so the pb rams offspring vs the crossbred rams. Ill be testing birth weight and weight through to weaning and finishing weight. Finally ill be asking the two farmers who are supplying the ewes(have my own but i thought i might be biased with the result)if theyve seen any diffrence in them. Doesnt matter one bit what the result is im just doing this because ive an interest in it plus it makes for a good project!

That's a cracking project. Keep us posted!

serfspup

good project best of luck thats a lot of comitment
I think an equipment company should sponsor a weighing scales or a tag reader for an enterprising idea like this

Youngshepherd

Sponsership doesnt sound like a bad idea! If im going to do it i might aswell do it big!

Youngshepherd

What do ye lads think of a suffolk x cheviot ram? Have the option to use one of these but i dont know if his offspring would be consistent enough

rangler1

Youngshepherd wrote: »

What do ye lads think of a suffolk x cheviot ram? Have the option to use one of these but i dont know if his offspring would be consistent enough

Can I be devils advocate here, but if you have an expert at the interview, I'd imagine you'll be quizzed on this.
Do you not think you need more information on the parentage.
for a reliable conclusion, do you need more information on the dam in particular of the crossbred.
For instance, if you're using a four star purebred and the crossbred is bred by a four star sire and ,even though you don't know it, a four star dam and you prove that the crossbred out performs the purebred, ( which is highly likely due to hybrid vigour)
Then I, joe farmer, accept your findings and go and source a crossbred ram out of the best looking ewe in the place, but she could be a one star, which would blow your findings out of the water,
I'd imagine there's too many unknowns in your project

BTW, do you know the star rating of the purebred ram

Youngshepherd

Its only a small scale project that ill be using for young scientists and possibly my leaving cert ag science project but i will be able to find how many stars the ram that sired the dam has and also how many stars the suffolk ram used has. Ive heard of plenty of people saying the star system is pure sh*te though! Theyve seen rams with 5 stars but just dont look the part and should of been culled rather than kept so does the amount of stars they have really affect it? I would have thought a ewe with good conformation with a good ram would be bound to have good offspring? The dams is a pb wicklow cheviot and the ram a pb suffolk

rangler1

Youngshepherd wrote: »

Its only a small scale project that ill be using for young scientists and possibly my leaving cert ag science project but i will be able to find how many stars the ram that sired the dam has and also how many stars the suffolk ram used has. Ive heard of plenty of people saying the star system is pure sh*te though! Theyve seen rams with 5 stars but just dont look the part and should of been culled rather than kept so does the amount of stars they have really affect it? I would have thought a ewe with good conformation with a good ram would be bound to have good offspring? The dams is a pb wicklow cheviot and the ram a pb suffolk

Anyway you'll be ready for the question if its asked
Don't believe the stars either, but the ''experts'' preach it.
If the stars were dependable, the rams would be judged on their figures like in other countries
Good idea to use two purebreds in the crossbred, at least there'll be good breeding from both sides.
Best of luck anyway, whatever you do

Youngshepherd

Thanks

Willfarman

The ram bred out of a cheviot suffolk wouldn't be a great terminal sire but would be interesting to see does it show any differ on the overall flock profitability broadsheet compared to a good vendeen for eg.. Have you sourced a pb ram lamb as well? You need to jan February born ideally. You will need two batches of similar ewes ideally. In age and type.

MayoAreMagic

The star ratings mightn't be up to much, but the fact is it will add to your project to have them, and to be honest, that should be your concern, rather than having a nice looking animal or whatever. You wont get marks in a science project for the opinions of random farmers, with no scientific proof behind it. They may be right, but that doesn't come into it. The star rating gives your project a recognised baseline to start from that is used in farming today, and in an analytical project like that, it is definitely a bonus to have that, rather than random ewe A and random ram B with no real consideration given as regards their quality - or at least nothing an examiner can go off.

Making a point of getting an animal that comes from star rated stock, gives a far more polished and professional impression of your project. Basically, it would be a big addition on your project and you would probably get more marks.

Rangler, if I am reading you correctly, I think you have misunderstood how hybrid vigour works. The first cross will get the most vigorous response. Introducing a third cross wont increase it further, it actually starts to decrease. It is actually more to do with the crossing of two sets of genes that are very similar to themselves but very different to one another. The crossbred ram has already varied his genes once so the reaction isn't as strong. Maybe I misread your point and you understand that already? Either way, that's how it works.

AnFeirmeoir

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Rangler, if I am reading you correctly, I think you have misunderstood how hybrid vigour works. The first cross will get the most vigorous response. Introducing a third cross wont increase it further, it actually starts to decrease. It is actually more to do with the crossing of two sets of genes that are very similar to themselves but very different to one another. The crossbred ram has already varied his genes once so the reaction isn't as strong. Maybe I misread your point and you understand that already? Either way, that's how it works.

So, in the standard commercial flock, with suffolk X Ewes , is there nothing to be done to increase hybrid vigour?
I think a lot try to keep a ewe thats not too white and not too black, thinking this is using hybrid vigour. ( put a black ram on a whiteish ewe and visa versa) is this not using hybrid vigour?

Also if you were to throw a third breed that is never used before in for a year, sureley the new genes that would bring would add to the offspring ?

rangler1

AnFeirmeoir wrote: »

So, in the standard commercial flock, with suffolk X Ewes , is there nothing to be done to increase hybrid vigour?
I think a lot try to keep a ewe thats not too white and not too black, thinking this is using hybrid vigour. ( put a black ram on a whiteish ewe and visa versa) is this not using hybrid vigour?

Also if you were to throw a third breed that is never used before in for a year, sureley the new genes that would bring would add to the offspring ?

Copied from a teagasc report:
I think they always promoted the third cross in suckling too, which confirms what you're saying

''The Blackface ewe forms the basic for producing replacement stock for many lowland producers. They are crossed regularly with Bluefaced Leicesters, Border Leicester, Cheviot and Belclare to produce highly prolific ewes that are compact and easily maintained. Research completed at Teagasc Athenry, rated the Mule and the Greyface second and third of all breeds on prolifacy , with the Belclare rated first. The blackface ewe plays a major role in contributing to the success of both the mule and greyface as a highly productive and hardy ewe. This first cross ewe in turn should be crossed with a meat sire to produce an ideal lamb for the French market or the light trade, while availing of the hybrid vigour of the three way cross''

Youngshepherd

I have a pb suffolk organised star rated and everything also have the x ram organised aswell he looks more suffolk than cheviot to be honest hes a good muscled lamb born in February. Would i be better off having them lamb in January? I was planning on lambing them in late February and early march as it suits the system we have on farm also all ewes are more or less same age and breed

AnFeirmeoir

Youngshepherd wrote: »

I have a pb suffolk organised star rated and everything also have the x ram organised aswell he looks more suffolk than cheviot to be honest hes a good muscled lamb born in February. Would i be better off having them lamb in January? I was planning on lambing them in late February and early march as it suits the system we have on farm

If the project is about "performance at grass", i'd lamb later when grass will be available for them, if not then whatever suits.

Youngshepherd

Yeah all lambs will be grass fed only. Also hoping that with the cheviot blood in the ram lambs will be up suckling quicker but with same weight gains as suffolk lambs would this happen or will i just get some cheviot looking lambs and some suffolk?

MayoAreMagic

rangler1 wrote: »

Copied from a teagasc report:
I think they always promoted the third cross in suckling too, which confirms what you're saying

''The Blackface ewe forms the basic for producing replacement stock for many lowland producers. They are crossed regularly with Bluefaced Leicesters, Border Leicester, Cheviot and Belclare to produce highly prolific ewes that are compact and easily maintained. Research completed at Teagasc Athenry, rated the Mule and the Greyface second and third of all breeds on prolifacy , with the Belclare rated first. The blackface ewe plays a major role in contributing to the success of both the mule and greyface as a highly productive and hardy ewe. This first cross ewe in turn should be crossed with a meat sire to produce an ideal lamb for the French market or the light trade, while availing of the hybrid vigour of the three way cross''

It doesn't, it just reads poorly. I read the very same thing and made the exact same mistake.
There is hybrid vigour in a 3 way cross, which the above takes advantage of. But hybrid vigour will be most prevalent in the initial 2 way cross from purebred stock. So just to give an example on a makeshift measure of HV, a 2 way purebred cross on both sides gets 10 out of 10 for HV. A 3 way cross is 9/10, 4 way cross is 8/10 etc etc. So hybrid vigour does exist in 3 or 4 way crosses, and you can take advantage of it, as in the above, but it isn't where it is most effective. However, that is strictly speaking in terms of HV. Putting the terminal sire on the mule will produce a better lamb etc, but that is a different from hybrid vigour.

fanadman1

My belive of the crossing of the mule to a terminal was that you were hopeong to get the best qualitys of both rather than the hybrid vigor lambs that would get up wuickly and finnish quickly i never thought this as hv mabey im wrong

MayoAreMagic

fanadman1 wrote: »

My belive of the crossing of the mule to a terminal was that you were hopeong to get the best qualitys of both rather than the hybrid vigor lambs that would get up wuickly and finnish quickly i never thought this as hv mabey im wrong

Id agree. Mixing the qualities of different breeds is different to HV. A lamb out of a terminal sire will have a better carcass because his father is a texel rather than because of hybrid vigour. That isn't to say that there wont be an amount of hybrid vigour present, there will be. But speaking strictly in terms of HV, you will get a stronger response in the first cross. I know it is kind of counter intuitive, you would expect introducing even more genes would increase the HV factor even more but that isn't how it works.

Think about it, if the introduction of more and more breeds increased hybrid vigour, then the sheep to have would be ones with about 30 different breeds in the mix, wouldn't it?

ganmo

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Think about it, if the introduction of more and more breeds increased hybrid vigour, then the sheep to have would be ones with about 30 different breeds in the mix, wouldn't it?

i was told 7 breeds works the best

MayoAreMagic

ganmo wrote: »

i was told 7 breeds works the best

For hybrid vigour? Why would that be?

The scientific description of hybrid vigour was given earlier in the thread. With the effects dissipating with each cross until, at the 16th cross, no effect is noticeable. When you consider that, then how can it be anything other than the first cross being the strongest?

ganmo

no i ment for a multiple breed mix

the most hybrid vigor is always the first cross, but plateaus out after 7, the numbers i gave earlier were just an example to help explain the effect and i don't know the sums that says 7 breeds should be the limit

Youngshepherd

Would using a ram lamb as the crossbred and 2 year old ram as the pb be ok or would i need to use the same age ram for the best results?

MayoAreMagic

While I've heard it said that a ram will breed best when he is young, I dont think you need the rams to be the same age. Just as long as the ram lamb has the ewes to himself, i.e. they arent run together, it should be ok

Youngshepherd

Anyone know if I could get an ebv scan done on the crossbred lamb? Want it to make my project look a little better and I might also get a fertility test done,also what kind of price would these be?

Arrow in the Knee

Youngshepherd wrote: »

Anyone know if I could get an ebv scan done on the crossbred lamb? Want it to make my project look a little better and I might also get a fertility test done,also what kind of price would these be?

If there is a Lambplus breeder scanning near you could bring the ram. Ultrasound scan for Muscle and Fat depth and the weight of the ram but it's pointless when you have no pedigree of the crossbred ram, no siblings to compare it to.

Also you won't get EBVs

Youngshepherd

Would it not look good on the project? Not doing it for the sake of doing it I just need anything I can get to make the project look the best it can

fanadman1

I think if you done it on the rams you would need to do it on the lambs to show if it pass's on to his projeny

Arrow in the Knee

Well what project are you at?

Is it Leaving Cert or thesis for a Masters?

Youngshepherd

Young scientist and also possibly leaving cert ag science

Lambman

How'd this ever pan out youngshepard

charolais0153

Lambman wrote: »

How'd this ever pan out youngshepard

He hasn't been active in over a year so I wouldn't tount on a response

farmerjoe50

Crossbred rams lead to large variations in the offspring. Some small, some big, some white face some black. It makes your end product come out poorily, like you have no understanding of how genetics work. If youre seeking just a big ram than maybe youre ok with say a texel
cross suffolk but if it has any blood that will throw out small lambs like belclare or blackface mountain then you have a serious problem

Youngshepherd

Lambman wrote: »

How'd this ever pan out youngshepard

Unfortunately I didn't go through with the project although the ewes were still put in lamb to both Rams,would you believe the crossbreed Rams off Spring were born easier, up and suckling quicker,out in the field faster,and there was less illness compared to the purebred? The only down side to them was after three months they stopped gaining as much weight as the lambs from the pb lamb but still finished within 5 months off of just grass. I lost more of the lambs off of the pb ram than the crossbreed I'd like to do it properly next year and see was it just a fluke? All the crossbreed lambs also had a lovely light brown coloured head even kept some of the ewe lambs.