FTP question.

Amprodude

Just wondering with boardsies here that have powermeters, In a race what do you do if you hit a point you are exceeding your FTP value? Do you try to reduce your effort as quick as possible or do you monitor it and be aware that you will soon burn out if you exceed the value for too long? I haven't raced with a powermeter yet but just interested in few opinions here.

wirelessdude01

Are you Chris Froome in disguise?

Those in my club that have them tend to not use or just ignore them in races, they seem to be used primarily as a training aid.

Amprodude

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Are you Chris Froome in disguise?

Those in my club that have them tend to not use or just ignore them in races, they seem to be used primarily as a training aid.

I know of a rider who was on one of the Irish cycling teams in the past saying he never uses a HR monitor or powermeter ever. He says he would ignore them in the race. I think it would be handy going up a climb chasing someone down and knowing if you are going too hard or not and gauge it that way.

Beasty

In TTs I will constantly monitor my NP. In road races I will check periodically. Normally though for me it's largely a case of hanging on anyway, so the alternative to trying to stay in a group is being dropped. Hence I'll try and hang on even if clearly in the red in the hope I'll get some respite if the group slows a little

With the club league when we are in a handicap situation (I've not been in a club road race in over the past couple of years), it can be useful to assess whether I have much left and if so whether to push harder to close down the gaps

buffalo

Amprodude wrote: »

it would be handy going up a climb chasing someone down and knowing if you are going too hard or not and gauge it that way.

Would you not know from the feeling in your legs and your heart?

PS well done at the weekend!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

I ignore power whilst racing and only review it after the race. The only time I would look at it is if making a solo break or trying to bridge across.

Amprodude

buffalo wrote: »

PS well done at the weekend!

At what?

Amprodude

Nolan Wonderful Meteorologist wrote: »

I ignore power whilst racing and only review it after the race. The only time I would look at it is if making a solo break or trying to bridge across.

That's a good idea. I was thinking it would be useful if you are trying to catch a breakaway you could monitor your threshold without going too hard.

buffalo

Amprodude wrote: »

At what?

At racing!

niceonetom

Amprodude wrote: »

Just wondering with boardsies here that have powermeters, In a race what do you do if you hit a point you are exceeding your FTP value? Do you try to reduce your effort as quick as possible or do you monitor it and be aware that you will soon burn out if you exceed the value for too long? I haven't raced with a powermeter yet but just interested in few opinions here.

You should probably inform the riders around you - I mean not everyone has a PM and they won't want to blow up either.

Amprodude

niceonetom wrote: »

You should probably inform the riders around you - I mean not everyone has a PM and they won't want to blow up either.

Niceonetom

Lusk_Doyle

How long have you been cycling competitively? I'm interested in the progress that you have made.

Amprodude

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

How long have you been cycling competitively? I'm interested in the progress that you have made.

I'm into my 2nd year racing. Raced 4 times as an A4 last year. That was my intro to racing. This is my third year cycling in total. I would love to be an A1 one day but must get stuck in and get out of A3 first. May never get there but il try to make progress along the way. Il try and step up the training and il keep racing and try and keep everything positive.

Amprodude

What would be the average Ftp for A1s/A2s?

I know it will vary from rider to rider and it may be a stupid question as every rider is different but would it have to be better than 302watts? This is my max threshold at present but working on trying to increase this over time. I ordered that book training and racing with powermeter too so looking forward to finding out more with training with power.

Bahra12

Amprodude wrote: »

What would be the average Ftp for A1s/A2s?

I know it will vary from rider to rider and it may be a stupid question as every rider is different but would it have to be better than 302watts? This is my max threshold at present but working on trying to increase this over time. I ordered that book training and racing with powermeter too so looking forward to finding out more with training with power.

Power to weight ratio would be a better way of quantifying the differences in standard. For a1 riders I have heard 5 watts per kilo is ballpark figure so for an 70kg rider that's an FTP of 350 watts. Again only a ball park estimate - could be a bit lower or higher.

joey100

When you say max threshold is 302 watts, what do you mean? The longest you can hold for 20 mins? 1 min? 1hr ?

While weight to power isn't everything how heavy are you?

Amprodude

joey100 wrote: »

When you say max threshold is 302 watts, what do you mean? The longest you can hold for 20 mins? 1 min? 1hr ?

While weight to power isn't everything how heavy are you?

Yeah I have done four 20min tests in total over last 6 weeks. I weigh about 73kg.

Pawlie

Is 302 the average watts over the 20 min tests, if yes you need to calculate it further......... 302 x 92% will give you a truer ftp as the test is only over 20 mins and not 60 mins.

Having the correct numbers is hugely important so you dont end up over doing it too wrong numbers and blowing up.

Use the power numbers in races if you like but dont let it put you off trying to bridge or attack if you want too :-)

Amprodude

Pawlie wrote: »

Is 302 the average watts over the 20 min tests, if yes you need to calculate it further......... 302 x 92% will give you a truer ftp as the test is only over 20 mins and not 60 mins.

Having the correct numbers is hugely important so you dont end up over doing it too wrong numbers and blowing up.

Use the power numbers in races if you like but dont let it put you off trying to bridge or attack if you want too :-)

You are correct I haven't multipled that figure in the garmin by 0.95 (GCN recommendation) and that would give me a proper reading of 287watts. I have ordered that book training and racing with a powermeter, And I want to build a bit more power. I weigh 73kg. My trainer said to me that I'm short of a bit of power on the flat but have plenty for climbing. So taking that advice I am now going to try and build some power over next few weeks/months.

duffyshuffle

Amprodude wrote: »

You are correct I haven't multipled that figure in the garmin by 0.95 (GCN recommendation) and that would give me a proper reading of 287watts. I have ordered that book training and racing with a powermeter, And I want to build a bit more power. I weigh 73kg. My trainer said to me that I'm short of a bit of power on the flat but have plenty for climbing. So taking that advice I am now going to try and build some power over next few weeks/months.

Did you do the 20 mins on a turbo/road/hill? It'll likely give different results for each.

The 95% multiplication is usually after you've done a 5 minute all out 5 minutes before starting the 20 minute test or else it'll be over-estimated, thats why people would use 92% instead.

Its about getting the right figure to train with, not having the largest figure you can get through maths

I'd use a powermeter in a race but only look at it if in a breakaway, its great to review surges after the race.

tunney

duffyshuffle wrote: »

Did you do the 20 mins on a turbo/road/hill? It'll likely give different results for each.

The 95% multiplication is usually after you've done a 5 minute all out 5 minutes before starting the 20 minute test or else it'll be over-estimated, thats why people would use 92% instead.

Its about getting the right figure to train with, not having the largest figure you can get through maths

I'd use a powermeter in a race but only look at it if in a breakaway, its great to review surges after the race.

even after the 5 minute all out the multiple to use ranges from 0.88 to 0.97 depending on the individual. In my experience most are closer to 0.9 than 0.95

Inquitus

302 * 0.92 is the right calculation here giving an ftp of 277 @ 73kg or 3.80 W/Kg, not bad but not going to get you any points in A3 I wouldn't think. Consensus seems to be you want to be north of 4W/Kg to make inroads at that level.

niceonetom

FWIW, the whole question of FTP is not very illuminating when it comes to predicting results. Cycling is not a steady-state sport and being able to truck along at Xw/kg for 60 mins is no guarantee you'll survive having to do 10 mins at X+50 in the gutter or over a nasty drag.

In my experience the guys who do well in cycling are guys who have a decent ftp (obviously) and a much more impressive CP30sec up to maybe CP10mins. They're the guys who can move up at will when others have to hide, they don't really feel the pain when it gets lined out, can recover very quickly without needing the bunch to stall, and can jump to get into breaks, and then finish it off with some kind of kick. All that plus the smarts to put it together. It's a ridiculously tough sport.

So, yes, establish your FTP for use as a guide in training, but focusing your training on raising your FTP can leave a lot of riders unable to handle the actualities of racing.

Amprodude

Inquitus wrote: »

302 * 0.92 is the right calculation here giving an ftp of 277 @ 73kg or 3.80 W/Kg, not bad but not going to get you any points in A3 I wouldn't think. Consensus seems to be you want to be north of 4W/Kg to make inroads at that level.

My test out on the road was 302w on the garmin . I have done 3 tests on the turbo at 300w before multiplting by 0.92. At the moment I'm at 277 going on my road figure, I'm hoping to have a ftp of 307watts some day. I will work hard to get there. I must increase this to 30watts. Surely its achievable with hard work? Would I be able to hang with the A3 bunch with current ftp of 277w and race smartness obviously?

DirkVoodoo

Amprodude wrote: »

My test out on the road was 302w on the garmin . I have done 3 tests on the turbo at 300w before multiplting by 0.92. At the moment I'm at 277 going on my road figure, I'm hoping to have a ftp of 307watts some day. I will work hard to get there. I must increase this to 30watts. Surely its achievable with hard work? Would I be able to hang with the A3 bunch with current ftp of 277w and race smartness obviously?

You should really listen to niceonetom. Unless all you plan to do is ride TTs, there is a bit more to racing than simply a numbers game. It's important not to lose sight of that.

Do you have a coach? Someone who could analyse your data and align it with your goals would be money well spent.

tunney

Amprodude wrote: »

My test out on the road was 302w on the garmin . I have done 3 tests on the turbo at 300w before multiplting by 0.92. At the moment I'm at 277 going on my road figure, I'm hoping to have a ftp of 307watts some day. I will work hard to get there. I must increase this to 30watts. Surely its achievable with hard work? Would I be able to hang with the A3 bunch with current ftp of 277w and race smartness obviously?

Build a power profile. 5s, 10s, 30s, 1m, 5m, 10m, 20m, 30m and 60m tests
Plot them, compare to what good road racers are.

duffyshuffle

tunney wrote: »

Build a power profile. 5s, 10s, 30s, 1m, 5m, 10m, 20m, 30m and 60m tests
Plot them, compare to what good road racers are.

How relevant is w/kg vs absolute watts for 5 sec 30 sec etc... Compared to FTP do you think?

Lumen

I found when starting racing that doing a couple of races a week didn't leave much time or spare recovery for anything but commuting, and even then I was pretty much done by late May (a couple of months of pre-season prep and a couple of months of actual racing).

I am a bit pathetic though.

Inquitus

duffyshuffle wrote: »

How relevant is w/kg vs absolute watts for 5 sec 30 sec etc... Compared to FTP do you think?

Niceonetom nails it in his assessment. FTP, W/Kg are all guidelines, but as he states road racing is about guile, recovery and ability to put out high numbers for shorter periods of time than FTP. That said W/Kg is a pretty good guideline for any of our hillier races which have climbs of 10mins+.

For Irish racing in general I'd go with Niceonetom, ability to put out good numbers in the range up to 10 minutes is far more important than FTP, as is ability to recover.

kumate_champ07

I think its very early to be using a powermeter. Id wait till you have done 2 full race seasons and build a good foundation and understanding of how it feels under different racing conditions. you'll improve alot just by hard work, then you can bring in science later.

if you are set on getting one Id recommend using it for training, but ignore it in a race. you can analyze your power data afterwards

Amprodude

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I think its very early to be using a powermeter. Id wait till you have done 2 full race seasons and build a good foundation and understanding of how it feels under different racing conditions. you'll improve alot just by hard work, then you can bring in science later.

if you are set on getting one Id recommend using it for training, but ignore it in a race. you can analyze your power data afterwards

Need to make my investment work as soon as I can. Going to be huge part of my training from now on.

Amprodude

Did another ftp test today on garmin normalised and avg power 323 watts, up from 302watts. Increase in ftp. 277watts up to 297watts when calculated.

Question I have now is I also did a 5min flat out test and I avg and normalised 354watts for that in garmin and I did this 10mins after the 20min ftp test. I want to know is this 5min test of value to me in calculating my ftp or do I have to go with just the 20min test. I was feeling good at the time and decided to do the 5min test eventhough it was after my 20min test. Can I use it in my ftp calculation or is it not valued?

Thanks

BennyMul

Amprodude wrote: »

Did another ftp test today on garmin normalised and avg power 323 watts, up from 302watts. Increase in ftp. 277watts up to 297watts when calculated.

Question I have now is I also did a 5min flat out test and I avg and normalised 354watts for that in garmin and I did this 10mins after the 20min ftp test. I want to know is this 5min test of value to me in calculating my ftp or do I have to go with just the 20min test. I was feeling good at the time and decided to do the 5min test eventhough it was after my 20min test. Can I use it in my ftp calculation or is it not valued?

Thanks

the 5min blowout is to be done 10min before the 20min effort (sorry) not after.
also I suspect if you were able to do a 5min effort of them numbers after the test then you did not kill your self during the 20min.

Pawlie

You certainly didn't do a proper 20 min test if you could go on and do a 5 min one after

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Testing protocol i use is
15 minutes easy
5x30sec build, 30sec easy (build means start each rep easy but finish hard)
5 min TT - (dont hold back)
10 minutes easy
20 min TT
cool down

Use between 90-95% of this number

Or else just do a straight hour....they are fun, not:)

Amprodude

BennyMul wrote: »

the 5min blowout is to be done 10min before the 20min effort (sorry) not after.
also I suspect if you were able to do a 5min effort of them numbers after the test then you did not kill your self during the 20min.

Just about at my limit but like you said I may have been able to kill myself a bit more.

Amprodude

Nolan Wonderful Meteorologist wrote: »

Testing protocol i use is
15 minutes easy
5x30sec build, 30sec easy (build means start each rep easy but finish hard)
5 min TT - (dont hold back)
10 minutes easy
20 min TT
cool down

Use between 90-95% of this number

Or else just do a straight hour....they are fun, not:)

Good point, I thought I wouldnt be able to do the 5min test after but will do it first next time and follow your instructions.

Amprodude

For the moment I will use 323w x 0.92 = ftp 297W and base my training zones on that. I think I need to hide my powermeter reading while doing the test. Think I may be able to increase it over 300watts on next test. Should be well able to stay with A3s on todays reading even if it's underestimated.

Beasty

Nolan Wonderful Meteorologist wrote: »

Or else just do a straight hour....they are fun, not:)

A 25 mile flattish TT is pretty effective (although power may be slightly down due to the position adopted on a TT bike)

Beasty

Amprodude wrote: »

I think I need to hide my powermeter reading while doing the test.

The benefit I find of seeing how things are going is it helps reduce lulls or surges by facilitating much better pacing. If you have a pretty good idea of what you are capable of go for it and a little more

Amprodude

Beasty wrote: »

The benefit I find of seeing how things are going is it helps reduce lulls or surges by facilitating much better pacing. If you have a pretty good idea of what you are capable of go for it and a little more

Exactly that's why I like to see the effort and to see if it's a smooth output of constant power. Sometimes if I hit 360w or over, mentally it's telling me I'm going too hard and need to drop the power.

Amprodude

Nolan Wonderful Meteorologist wrote: »

Testing protocol i use is
15 minutes easy
5x30sec build, 30sec easy (build means start each rep easy but finish hard)
5 min TT - (dont hold back)
10 minutes easy
20 min TT
cool down

Use between 90-95% of this number

Or else just do a straight hour....they are fun, not:)

How do you get the ftp of using the 5min TT and the 20min TT? Do you add both watts from the two tests then divide by 2 and multiply the figure by 0.95?

Beasty

The 5 minute TT is simply preparation for the test. You than take 95% of the 20 minute figure

joey100

I'd suggest doing a bit more reading around power before using the power meter for basing your training around. Or get a coach who knows how to use it properly. No point basing your training off numbers that aren't your FTP, will either be too hard or too easy. Just do some training, leave the power meter numbers until after the session and then have a look at them to see how your getting on. Until you know how to do an FTP test properly I'd say your better off not using power. I know you want to get the power meter working for you as soon as possible but for it to work you need to understand some of the basic enough stuff like testing FTP.

I'm not having a go, just think you don't seem fully up on using a powermeter (either am I, have a coach to look at them for me and then decide my training from that).

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Amprodude wrote: »

How do you get the ftp of using the 5min TT and the 20min TT? Do you add both watts from the two tests then divide by 2 and multiply the figure by 0.95?

No the 5min is used to give an accurate and honest 20min effort. With the 5min effort you are trying to exhaust the anaerobic contribution of the 20 minute test.

Over time you will find out if .95 is to be used on the 20min effort, some including myself would be closer to using .90-.92 of that number.

Do a proper test as above and base your training off that. There should be no need to be testing as much as you have been unless you are starting to find sessions like 5x5min at 120% easy or threshold feels that little too easy. Cycling and training with power is a learning curve.

For the racing you are doing i would be looking closely at your 5sec power up to 10mins. No point having a decent threshold number if you are getting dropped when the hurt is put on.

Have you got a copy of that book yet?

doozerie

It has been a while since I've tested it but I still work off my FTP being 220W - it may even have dropped. At 58kg that gives me a W/kg of 3.79, I was competitive in A4 with those relatively modest numbers.

I've only recently been upgraded and the SHA3 was my third A3 race. In the first 2 races (Des Hanlon, Stamullen GP) I was dropped early on. In the SHA3 I hung on by the skin of my teeth to finish in what I think was the second chasing group on the road. I was *not* competitive in that race, it was a war of attrition for me, but I finished ahead of quite a few people whose FTP is much higher than mine I reckon.

Obviously at my weight, climbs gives me an opportunity to gain an advantage over bigger and stronger riders, but it's just another demonstration of the fact that FTP is only one part of the picture, and in some races it is arguably of minimal importance. I'm just repeating what others have said, basically knowing your FTP is great for targeted training, but it's not a good predictor of race performance in itself.

Beasty

doozerie wrote: »

Obviously at my weight, climbs gives me an opportunity to gain an advantage over bigger and stronger riders, but it's just another demonstration of the fact that FTP is only one part of the picture, and in some races it is arguably of minimal importance. I'm just repeating what others have said, basically knowing your FTP is great for targeted training, but it's not a good predictor of race performance in itself.

Think that's why it's a measure that triathletes do look at quite a lot closer than road cyclists. It is though very also useful for anyone focussing on TTs (non-hilly ones anyway)

Beasty

This clearly is not a training log, although it's a very useful discussion that warrants a place in the main forum, which is where I am therefore moving it

Amprodude

Did my first A3 race today. It was 95km. I was dropped at 86km but I enjoyed the thrill of racing in an A2/A3 race. Nearly hung on but didn't have the legs after 86km. I went in with the aim of hanging on for as long as I can and did my best. I hope I can finish in the bunch on next race.

Here is my data:

Distance 95.1km
Avg speed 38.0km/h
Max speed: 58.2km/h
Avg power 223 watts.
Normalised power 294 watts.
Max power 1041 watts.
Power Intensity Factor 1.060
Power Training Stress Score 277.8
Avg cadence 98rpm
Max cadence 154rpm
Avg Heart rate 173bpm
Max Heart rate 196bpm

Advice appreciated.

Thanks

wirelessdude01

Amprodude wrote: »

Did my first A3 race today. It was 95km. I was dropped at 86km but I enjoyed the thrill of racing in an A2/A3 race. Nearly hung on but didn't have the legs after 86km. I went in with the aim of hanging on for as long as I can and did my best. I hope I can finish in the bunch on next race.

Here is my data:

Distance 95.1km
Avg speed 38.0km/h
Max speed: 58.2km/h
Avg power 223 watts.
Normalised power 294 watts.
Max power 1041 watts.
Power Intensity Factor 1.060
Power Training Stress Score 277.8
Avg cadence 98rpm
Max cadence 154rpm
Avg Heart rate 173bpm
Max Heart rate 196bpm

Advice appreciated.

Thanks

That avg heart rate would indicate you were on the rivet for most of the race, was that the case?

Hilly race?

JK.BMC

Inquitus wrote: »

Niceonetom nails it in his assessment. FTP, W/Kg are all guidelines, but as he states road racing is about guile, recovery and ability to put out high numbers for shorter periods of time than FTP. That said W/Kg is a pretty good guideline for any of our hillier races which have climbs of 10mins+.

For Irish racing in general I'd go with Niceonetom, ability to put out good numbers in the range up to 10 minutes is far more important than FTP, as is ability to recover.

I would also agree with this- lumpy lads with race smarts nearly always trump those looking at wattage as the break goes up the road, no matter how skinny they are.
Having said that, training with power can be very helpful. Maybe your long term future is in Time Trialling.