Episode 5x04 - Sons of the Harpy - *HAVE* read the books [** Spoilers **]

Mr.Prodston

The last episode of the leak, so probably the last thread I'll have to start :pac: Spoilers after the cut line, turn back now etc etc

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What the actual F*CK??!

Um

Barristan

was very much not dead as last I recalled. I've tolerated and rather enjoyed this season and all the changes so far but I'm seriously pissed. If Greyworm is spared over him in the name of romance then well I have no words. I might have more proper discussion later.

Mickeroo

Don't think he's dead, his throat would have been slit at the end there if he was.

Also, they're definitely setting up Stannis to be offed I think, he'll be showing soldiers pictures of his daughter during the match to Winterfell next....

I enjoyed the chat between LF and Sansa in the crypt, they're laying some of the groundwork for R=L = J there imo.

Very enjoyable episode overall.

jones

I think he is dead which is annoying but grey worm will live. Some major departures from the books this season. Some I like, some I can understand and some I just hate

Mr.Prodston

I absolutely loved the scene with Stannis and Shireen, best scene of the season so far Stannis really has been cut some slack by the writers this season. I'd look at it as maybe Mel serving Shireen up to the fire rather than Stannis being killed. If I thought I was mad about this episode then wait til that happened.

Don't even start me on Manderly either for that matter :pac:

connemara man

I was annoyed at how easily the unsullied were beaten. The greatest warriors etc the 2 caught alone fair enough that was at least a 7-1 advantage sons of the harpy bit greyworms group were in a tight space 2-1 maybe 3-1

Mickeroo

connemara man wrote: »

I was annoyed at how easily the unsullied were beaten. The greatest warriors etc the 2 caught alone fair enough that was at least a 7-1 advantage sons of the harpy bit greyworms group were in a tight space 2-1 maybe 3-1 with their skill more than greyworm should have made it out

I agree, shields and spears in that situation with their supposed expertise should have made mince meat of their attackers.

connemara man

Mickeroo wrote: »

I agree, shields and spears in that situation with their supposed expertise should have made mince meat of their attackers.

And with practically their leader in greyworm organising them it should have been a bloodbath

Hans Bricks

Anyone else starting to wonder if we'll actually see a Battle of Meereen between Daenerys and the Slaver cities at this stage ? Even in Season 6 ?

Barristan gone, no sign of the Greyjoy uncles Victarion and Euron/Aeron. I remember reading one of the episodes this season premising Dany's decision to up sticks and leave Meereen altogether.

Tom.D.BJJ

Very poor episode. Whoever wrote and directed it needs the block.

What I did enjoy. King Stannis, first of his name. Cersei ****ing everything up even if she doesn't see it yet. Mercy chapter setup!

What I tolerated. Littlefinger in the crypts.

What I hated. See Grandfathers demise. The unsullied being **** fighters. Tyrions contractually obligated screentime. Sandsnakes, Jesus how bad!! The spoonfeeding of the show watchers. The bad writing.

PS. I was on here earlier and noticed at least two posters in the "have not read" thread obviously have read the books.

chupacabra

The writers have completely lost the plot at this stage. This is what happens when a show gets massive success and its writers get too comfortable and too controlling.

Thats the straw that breaks the camels back for me. I'll keep watching, of course, but I've stopped caring about it anymore

Mr Freeze

Looks like Jorah won't live out the season either, he will probably get grayscale in the next episode because they mentioned grayscale/stonemen in the last 3 episodes and he is the one in a boat with Tyrion, so I think he is gonna get it.
Then Dany will want to kill him when he lands up with Tyrion, but he will proper be like "ah don't bother, am dead anyways [reveal grayscale hand], off to the fighting pits with me for an honourable death!".

Re, the Unsullied getting slaughtered, that was a poor scene. The Unsullied seem like they are crap since their original introduction. An army that knows no fear and feels no pain. Then you see grey worm winching when he gets hit and stabbed and when the Unsullied were originally introduced, you could cut bits off them and they wouldn't flinch. Do the writers even remember that?

And they finally started writing some good Stannis scenes, it better not be because they want to kill him off.

Oh and cutting the Greyjoys but including the Sand Snakes, and then the Sand Snakes scene being absolutely sh1te. It was a very weak introduction of the characters.

Nody

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Sleepy

Yup, plenty to criticize in this one. The sand snakes were never my favourite sub-plot anyway so I'm not too bothered about seeing them on-screen.

The failure of the squad of unsullied to form a phalanx when they had room and opportunity to do so was very irritating. Especially when you consider that the Sons of the Harpy are a guerilla resistance group, they're not going to be made up of disciplined soldiers so last weeks portrayal of them picking off individual unsullied was the way these guys would operate, not staging pitched battles on the streets where they should have been slaughtered by the "finest infantry in the world".

I don't remember Melisandre attempting to seduce John in the books? Seemed rather clumsy.

Oddly, for me, I found Sansa's storyline to be the most interesting this week and I *hated* her character in the books.

MrWalsh

The Knight of Flowers being taken by the untrained Faith Militant was nonsense.

Ser Loras Tyrell is supposedly one of the best swordsmen in Westeros, theres no way the Faith Militant could have taken him so easily, with a sword within 10 feet of him.

I also feel that Sansa Stark would not go so easily into the hands of the Boltons. She hasnt shown any strength so far, she has been thrown from bad situation to bad situation. Would she go and be so cool and polite with Roose Bolton after he butchered her father and brother? I dont think so.

Tommen is a fairly pathetic king, Ill be glad to see the back of him off the Iron Throne!

Mickeroo

She didn't attempt to seduce him in the books no, but I think she'll be going that way him in the future. She'll want to use him like she did Stannis, and I'm beginning to think she thinks she has the wrong guy and that Jon is the one she's been looking for the whole time. She had a line last night before she tried to seduce him when she was talking to Stannis "I serve my lord" or something like that, and she was looking down at Jon in the yard when she said it.

With Loris, at least they caught him by surprise from behind and he was only one man, the sword he had was probably blunt too.

I think Sansa is in control now and don't think her situation is the same as it was before, her character arch is becoming one of the stronger ones for me now.

Nody

Sleepy wrote: »

I don't remember Melisandre attempting to seduce John in the books? Seemed rather clumsy.

I think it was more to be able to sneak in the mandatory "naked women breast" that goes in every episode to keep the US audience awake

Liam O

Nody wrote: »

I think it was more to be able to sneak in the mandatory "naked women breast" that goes in every episode to keep the US audience awake

That did actually seem majorly shoehorned in, in a kind of 'I'm naked now, this should change everything'. If she was going to do that it would have had more effect if she glamoured into Ygritte.

Mr Freeze

She definitely does have an interest in him in the books too, I just assumed she wants more Shadow Assassin thingys.

But she seems quite dim in the books, when trying to see Azor Ahai in the fires and all she see's is snow, and doesn't draw any connection to Jon Snow at this point, just wonders why she can't see Stannis.

MrWalsh

Liam O wrote: »

That did actually seem majorly shoehorned in, in a kind of 'I'm naked now, this should change everything'. If she was going to do that it would have had more effect if she glamoured into Ygritte.

It was the corny "You know nothing Jon Snow" that annoyed me more.

Mr Freeze

MrWalsh wrote: »

It was the corny "You know nothing Jon Snow" that annoyed me more.

Ya, but she says that in the books too so its kinda ok, the delivery wasn't great in fairness.

Should have left it as a whisper in his ear.

MrWalsh

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Ya, but she says that in the books too so its kinda ok, the delivery wasn't great in fairness.

Should have left it as a whisper in his ear.

Yeah, the delivery was all wrong. A whisper definitely would have been better. The actress who plays Melisandre has messed up her lips with some cosmetic procedure since last season, I keep noticing it onscreen.

Michael D Not Higgins

MrWalsh wrote: »

The Knight of Flowers being taken by the untrained Faith Militant was nonsense.

Ser Loras Tyrell is supposedly one of the best swordsmen in Westeros, theres no way the Faith Militant could have taken him so easily, with a sword within 10 feet of him.

I saw it as him training so they were using blunt swords. A blunt sword is no good against how many of the FM? Did seem to go down a bit too easily though.

MrWalsh

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I saw it as him training so they were using blunt swords. A blunt sword is no good against how many of the FM? Did seem to go down a bit too easily though.

Yes, Im sure they were training swords - but even so - he is supposedly a skilled knight. Imagine that scene with Bronn in it - do you think a bunch of untrained barefoot men with hammers could take Bronn like that? And Ser Loras is in theory a much more highly skilled fighter than Bronn.

GerB40

Sleepy wrote: »

Yup, plenty to criticize in this one. The sand snakes were never my favourite sub-plot anyway so I'm not too bothered about seeing them on-screen.

The failure of the squad of unsullied to form a phalanx when they had room and opportunity to do so was very irritating. Especially when you consider that the Sons of the Harpy are a guerilla resistance group, they're not going to be made up of disciplined soldiers so last weeks portrayal of them picking off individual unsullied was the way these guys would operate, not staging pitched battles on the streets where they should have been slaughtered by the "finest infantry in the world".

I don't remember Melisandre attempting to seduce John in the books? Seemed rather clumsy.

Oddly, for me, I found Sansa's storyline to be the most interesting this week and I *hated* her character in the books.

One line in the books suggests that she realised Jon Snow was who she was after and Stannis was as good a way as any to get to Jon. They were in Dragonstone and she was looking into the fire while Davos was advising Stannis to go to the wall. I can't remember the exact wording of it but Melisandre said something like "He's right. I look into the flames and all I see is Snow". On the face of it it suggests the flames told her to go north but the word Snow is capitalised. As in a surname...

We know she isn't great at interpretation so maybe she just thought, snow = wall, but in a book with so few typos a capitalised word with such significance cannot be accidental.

"There's power in Kings blood" - Melisandre.
I wonder does that power extend to potential princes? Leeching Gendry would make me think so...

Michael D Not Higgins

MrWalsh wrote: »

Yes, Im sure they were training swords - but even so - he is supposedly a skilled knight. Imagine that scene with Bronn in it - do you think a bunch of untrained barefoot men with hammers could take Bronn like that? And Ser Loras is in theory a much more highly skilled fighter than Bronn.

I have a feeling if he had properly attacked they would have killed him and that would lose a character needlessly. He wasn't going to beat a dozen men with a blunt sword, no matter how good a knight he is.

The interesting bit is the way they'll progress this story arc. Without the Kettleblacks to rat her out, it lands on Lancel to come clean. How that fits in with Cersei trying to get Margaery arrested will be more difficult to reconcile than in the books.

MrWalsh

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I have a feeling if he had properly attacked they would have killed him and that would lose a character needlessly. He wasn't going to beat a dozen men with a blunt sword, no matter how good a knight he is.

I just cant agree with this. These guys are totally untrained. He should have been able to smack one in the face with the cup he was drinking from and grab the guys hammer to fight the rest with.

Theyve totally changed this storyline, and now that they have Margery shagging Tommen there is no question over her virtue either.

Mr Freeze

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

How that fits in with Cersei trying to get Margaery arrested will be more difficult to reconcile than in the books.

I don't think they are going with the Margaery being arrested plot.

Cersei instead seems to be removing all the people around Margaery, she will be powerless and we may not see Margaery being arrested at all.

Like you said, Lancel might out Cersei.

I hope poor Mace Tyrell hasn't been sent on a one way trip.

Regarding Shireen and her Grayscale, I am struggling to remember the detail from the book. Is that how she got it in the books or did they make that up for the show?

Sleepy

MrWalsh wrote: »

I just cant agree with this. These guys are totally untrained. He should have been able to smack one in the face with the cup he was drinking from and grab the guys hammer to fight the rest with.

Totally untrained? Do you really think Kevan Lannister would have let Lancel go his whole life without sword training?

These guys are fanatics and, seemingly from all walks of life. Lancel may have been a piss poor swordsman when compared to Loras Tyrell etc. but even a handful of castle-trained swordsmen amongst the ranks of the faith militant would be enough to tip the balance.

Also, I think Loras's prowess with a sword is being over-stated here. He's famed as a jouster rather than a melee fighter (where he was beaten by Brienne rather easily in the series already). He's the floweriest of the "Knights of Summer", not a battle-hardened veteran, nor a dirty street-figher like Bronn.

Mr.Prodston

Mel's scene with Jon really was jarring, it really did feel like it's purpose was meeting the boob quota rather than Mel seeing potential in Jon.

How nice was it to actually see Dany smile when Barristan was telling her about Rhaegar. Those little moments were some of the best parts of ADWD as he revealed little nuggets about the past. How the Unsullied crumbled against the Sons of the Harpy didn't really ring true either, especially with what it culminated in!! That probably could be the moment that I'll look back on and wish I'd stopped watching this until at least the next book is out, obviously I'll still be watching though

Jaime catching the sword with his hand I did like, he should really be using that as a weapon. I hope they don't off Bronn, it's the obvious thing to do so maybe they'll channel George and not do that, but I'm not so sure about that!

I've got to be honest I never cared much for Dorne and the Sand Snakes etc. Exceptions being Obeyrn obviously along with Doran and Quentyn (not that we'll be seeing him). I know it really was the first scene and things might improve but Ellaria and the 3 Snakes just didn't seem all that well written.

It was nice to see Sansa in the crypts and they really did put a lot of the ground work for R + L = J in this episode. I guess we got a good idea of what Littlefinger's plan is with Stannis etc. I wonder if he does show up in King's Landing will the show give him an instrumental role in Cersei's downfall?

Speaking of KL I think most of up can sympathise with poor Tommen, we'd all be doing our best to do whatever Margeary wanted :pac: Bringing in Loras because he's gay and that's "icky" is a little disappointing to see, and lazy enough. Although I guess it's a means of keeping him in KL rather than sending him to lead that expedition. The Faith Millitant formed fairly lively and didn't seem to have any problem in going straight from worship to straight up murder.

Time in this show is very much irrelevant at this point. I know we can't have episode after episode of wandering around and people waiting, but at the same time it makes Arya's and Bran's journeys wandering the wilderness of for seasons slightly harder to believe.

Loved the minute of Jon and Sam working together as Jon got frustrated with all the admin of giving his signature when you just know Sam spent hours writing all those letters out :pac:

Oldtown was mentioned once or twice too, as were the Stone men.

Once again that Stannis/Shireen scene was great. I can see Selyse wanting to burn Shireen once Stannis leaves though, she really is a thoroughly unlikable character in the brief scenes we get with her.

No Davos in this episode, maybe he's after taking a quick boat trip south

MrWalsh

@Sleepy - Thats a good point about Lancel.

I may also be guilty of mixing up book Loras (who has even beaten Jaime Lannister) and show Loras. I wouldnt take being beaten by Brienne to indicate you are not a good fighter though, she made mince meat of the Hound who was a total badass.

I think they should have toughened Loras up a bit in the show, although I do like Finn Jones portrayal generally speaking.

My husband (non book reader) said when I exclaimed out loud that the Faith Militant could never take Loras so easily that because Loras is so polite he wouldnt make a fuss while under someone elses roof and would go quietly and have it sorted out later (always interesting to get the non book readers pov in my house!).

MrWalsh

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Jaime catching the sword with his hand I did like, he should really be using that as a weapon.

I said it here somewhere before - he should have a short sword hand attachment made. A long sword would be no good as he wouldnt have any wrist twisting ability but a short stabby weapon would work great strapped onto his stump - a la Merle in the Walking Dead. They could even make it retractable.

razorblunt

MrWalsh wrote: »

Yeah, the delivery was all wrong. A whisper definitely would have been better. The actress who plays Melisandre has messed up her lips with some cosmetic procedure since last season, I keep noticing it onscreen.

I think you're right, though not just her lips maybe the whole face. My OH pointed it out at the beginning of the series.

FWIW I liked the line, couldn't recall it being whispered so I have to concede a whisper would have had a greater effect.

MrWalsh

razorblunt wrote: »

I think you're right, though not just her lips maybe the whole face. My OH pointed it out at the beginning of the series.

Yeah it might be more than the lips, but the lips struck me as a bit "duck" like - Ill have another look, she has been looking strangely expressionless of late (thinking about the stone faced delivery of that line).

Sleepy

MrWalsh wrote: »

@Sleepy - Thats a good point about Lancel.

I may also be guilty of mixing up book Loras (who has even beaten Jaime Lannister) and show Loras. I wouldnt take being beaten by Brienne to indicate you are not a good fighter though, she made mince meat of the Hound who was a total badass.

Again, Loras beat Jaime in a joust, not a sword-fight. Jousting is as much, if not more so, a test of one's horsemanship than one's skill at arms.

I think it's a bit unfair to say Brienne made mince-meat of the Hound. It was a close fought thing and he was already weakened from his various wounds at the time. She's a great fighter but either Jaime or the Hound in the full of their health would beat her.

I think they should have toughened Loras up a bit in the show, although I do like Finn Jones portrayal generally speaking.

My husband (non book reader) said when I exclaimed out loud that the Faith Militant could never take Loras so easily that because Loras is so polite he wouldnt make a fuss while under someone elses roof and would go quietly and have it sorted out later (always interesting to get the non book readers pov in my house!).

I think they've made Loras into far too much of a twink in the show tbh. He's supposed to be a dandy who very much espouses the ideal of knightly valour and chivalry not just a fop who has a powerful family name.

MrWalsh

Sleepy wrote: »

I think it's a bit unfair to say Brienne made mince-meat of the Hound. It was a close fought thing and he was already weakened from his various wounds at the time. She's a great fighter but either Jaime or the Hound in the full of their health would beat her.

Whatever about book Brienne, she is certainly being portrayed as the greatest fighter of them all in the show.

Sleepy

I think she's being portrayed as one of the best, Jaime was certainly impressed with her and she dispatched a weakened hound but I don't think the show is going so far as to portray her as the "greatest fighter of them all" other than in Pod's eyes?

Honestly, I rather like it that there's no "unbeatable" fighter in the show. Even Bronn who's rarely shown as having a weakness backed away from a fight with the Mountain. Jaime was legendary in his day but held his own with Brienne after being shackled for a few months. She only beat the Hound because he was weakened who in turn, only held off the Mountain because the king intervened, the Mountain in turn was bested by Oberyn (until he slipped up) etc.

Chaos may be a ladder but violence is a toss of the dice. I like that about the show.

rawn

The Unsullied used to drink nightshade(?) which prevented them from feeling pain. They don't drink it anymore, so maybe their fighting skills have taken a downturn? This, plus the fact that their training now vs their training in Astapor is hugely different, they're weaker fighters now that they have a weak (compared to their masters in Astapor) Queen.

Also, I'm not surprised that the holy militants have been winning with ease now, as I would assume people, especially high-born's like Loras, would be reluctant to fight back against holy men, for now anyways.

The Sand Snakes sucked. I liked them in the books but the scene was badly written. Hopefully they'll improve.

MrWalsh

I saw the Sand Snakes described as "B movie bad girls" somewhere.

I havent seen enough of them to make a call on it. I did like the outfit on the one who threw the spear through the buried guys head.

Hans Bricks

rawn wrote: »

The Sand Snakes sucked. I liked them in the books but the scene was badly written. Hopefully they'll improve.

Never really felt them in the books. The purpose of Dorne in asoiaf really is to get revenge on the Lannisters. It's kind of way overdue or evena little late now.

Between pressure from the Iron Bank, Aegon Targaryen invading the Stormlands, ineffective leadership for the Lannisters (Kevan dead and all), Margaery Tyrell wielding the Queen's power now and the Faith Militant, Cersei is fucked either way at this stage. Even Jaime has abandoned her. IMO the Martells aren't really that significant for the rest of the series, unless they join with the Targaryens for an invasion of King's Landing.

celica00

I finally catched up on this episode as well and must say:

Im really disappointed by the fight scene of grey worm and the others of the army.
The fight was poorly done (movements etc, why did all of the sullied die????), Ser Barristan moved very well (considering the age), but in the end somehow did too quickly as well..

just didnt like how it was made, could have been way more nicer.

That bothered me the most really :S

Mr Velo

Anyone watch Thronecast on Monday night?

Ian McElhinney was on it and confirmed that Barristan dies

Tom.D.BJJ

MrWalsh wrote: »

I said it here somewhere before - he should have a short sword hand attachment made. A long sword would be no good as he wouldnt have any wrist twisting ability but a short stabby weapon would work great strapped onto his stump - a la Merle in the Walking Dead. They could even make it retractable.

All i can think of is James Bond villians when i read this, but yes a hook or something stabby might be useful here.

All in all, it was a fcking sh1te episode which has put a dampener or what started as a decent season.

Tom.D.BJJ

There's no way Wardeness is a word, she would be Warden of the North

The Gibzilla

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

There's no way Wardeness is a word, she would be Warden of the North

I know, that's completely unpossible to say...

MrWalsh

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

All i can think of is James Bond villians when i read this, but yes a hook or something stabby might be useful here.

Something stabby that can be folded or retracted along with a heavy ended part for punching. Stabby pummelling.

They should so have me designing warrior amputee attachments in Kings Landing.......

Duckworth_Luas

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

There's no way Wardeness is a word, she would be Warden of the North

The Gibzilla wrote: »

I know, that's completely unpossible to say...

It's a perfectly cromulent word!

duploelabs

Mr Velo wrote: »

Anyone watch Thronecast on Monday night?

Ian McElhinney was on it and confirmed that Barristan dies

not Obi-Wan!!!!!!

Sleepy

MrWalsh wrote: »

Something stabby that can be folded or retracted along with a heavy ended part for punching. Stabby pummelling.

They should so have me designing warrior amputee attachments in Kings Landing.......

He did make a comment about a hook being more practical...

Digital Solitude

Don't normally post in these threads, but Grey Worm rolling in pain really annoyed me. Can see myself dropping the show altogether until the books are finished (I know).

As mentioned before the Unsullied and Sand Snakes were terrible, the casting on them was bad IMO too. Iirc, they're supposed to be beautiful, but savage warriors? One of them would have looked at home on Amazonia, I thought it was very poorly handled.

Tyrion was showed unnecessarily too, though I think an update on him would be needed, it could have been left until next week.

Enjoying Sansa in the show, think its a mixture between Sophie Turner, and not having to listen to her depressing monologues going on and on, her story didn't go anywhere in the books, so at least for that I'm thankful.

While Tommen is a useless King, I think he's very well played by the actor, comes off as meek and shy when he tries to exercise power, and it does fit his character, that and being so easily manipulated by both Cersei and Margery. In fairness, he has no real father figure and no one to guide him so I can see how he's so lost. Maybe with the reintroduction of a Hand to the King he will take on a more powerful figure.

bur

Stannis: Are you lonely?

Shireen: Just bored.

St: My father used to tell me that boredom indicates a lack of inner resources.

Sh: Were you bored a lot too?



Think they are both great characters, that whole scene is one of my favourites.

connemara man

bur wrote: »

Stannis: Are you lonely?

Shireen: Just bored.

St: My father used to tell that boredom indicates a lack of inner resources.

Sh: Were you bored a lot too?



Think they are both great characters, that whole scene is one of my favourites.

Something nearly flew into my eye during that scene