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Has immigration had an overall positive or negative effect on Britain?

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    #62
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Both family members of the household working would not be a clear majority (if a majority at all) in the case of migrant workers I think; even qualified ones. Saying this from my own experience in an IT multinational company: most non EU colleagues are from India and Russia (due to the fact the the company has been outsourcing in these countries and hired in many of the best ex-contractors as full time employees here). All brought in wife and kids and none of their wives are working.

    That's not data, that's anecdotal. I know plenty of people who came to the UK either alone or with a partner with both working.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #63
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    That's not data, that's anecdotal. I know plenty of people who came to the UK either alone or with a partner with both working.

    Sure but I don't see data from you either. And the only numbers posted on this thread are saying non-EU migrants have a net negative financial impact so are pointing towards the same direction as what I have been observing.


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    #64
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    That's not data, that's anecdotal. I know plenty of people who came to the UK either alone or with a partner with both working.

    both are anecdotal. We simply don't have the figures on this , there is no study that can categorically say "out of all the immigrants that came to the UK in the last 30 years they contributed x amount and cost us x amount" the data may be there in future, but we don't have a large enough calculable sample.


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    #65
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't see why I should be the only one to present data given that 1, noone else has and 2, it'll be ignored akin to the other "Pin the blame on the immigrants" threads.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #66
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    both are anecdotal. We simply don't have the figures on this , there is no study that can categorically say "out of all the immigrants that came to the UK in the last 30 years they contributed x amount and cost us x amount" the data may be there in future, but we don't have a large enough calculable sample.

    So why assume that they are then? Why should someone have to work for 10 years to be entitled to NHS care when someone who was born in the UK can sit on the dole for their entire life and get all sorts at the drop of a hat?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #67
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't see why I should be the only one to present data given that 1, noone else has and 2, it'll be ignored akin to the other "Pin the blame on the immigrants" threads.

    You are not providing data, a link to a very left leaning paper?!?! Why do you not want to give me a link to that study?


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    #68
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Very left leaning? I'd call it centre-left and that's me being generous. Why wouldn't I want you to provide data? What's your point?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #69
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't see why I should be the only one to present data given that 1, noone else has and 2, it'll be ignored akin to the other "Pin the blame on the immigrants" threads.

    "MigrationWatch estimates suggest that the net fiscal impact of migrants is negative (the estimates are GBP -1 billion for 1999-2000 and GBP -5 billion for 2003-2004). MigrationWatch also presents estimates allocating all children of mixed couples to the migrant group and, as expected, the fiscal burden of migrants is estimated to be much higher (around GBP -3.8 billion in 1999-2000)."

    http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/migobs/briefing%20-%20Fiscal%20Impacts.pdf

    study from oxford which is a collection of studies about migration, some are negative, some are positive , but even the best study suggests migrants contributed a positive 2.5 billion to the economy in 99-00

    migration watch suggests that in 2003-2004 migrants cost the UK 5 billion.

    overall the positives are minuscule , but this doesn't take into account the effects of population growth, increasing inflation and pushing up prices for housing and services which is a net negative for natives.


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    #70
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    So why assume that they are then? Why should someone have to work for 10 years to be entitled to NHS care when someone who was born in the UK can sit on the dole for their entire life and get all sorts at the drop of a hat?

    As you've seen from previous threads, I also want to stamp that out.


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    #71
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Migration Watch is a right-wing think tank which has been accused of racism so I'll be ignoring that.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #72
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Migration Watch is a right-wing think tank which has been accused of racism so I'll be ignoring that.

    ofcourse, "facts i disagree with aren't valid"

    it explains their calculation method, and tore it apart, oxford saw fit to include them in the compiled study.


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    #73
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    ofcourse, "facts i disagree with aren't valid"

    it explains their calculation method, and tore it apart, oxford saw fit to include them in the compiled study.

    You utilised the same logic in another thread.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #74
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You utilised the same logic in another thread.

    can i have a link to that please.

    also even leaving that out, the positives are not big enough to overlook the secondary negatives.


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    #75
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Here's some data.

    As mentioned before, migrant's participation is the market is lower (it greatly depends on the origin and sex but is always lower than the equivalent UK category).

    And also as I mentioned it can be seen that for some origins wives are definitely present and staying at home much more than average (see Pakistan and Bangladesh).

    296jg1u.jpg

    Source: http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/16488/1/16488.pdf


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    #76
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    can i have a link to that please.

    also even leaving that out, the positives are not big enough to overlook the secondary negatives.

    You didn't. I apologise. I confused you with another user.

    If the positives aren't big enough, why does every major party support immigration?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #77
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Here's some data.

    As mentioned before, migrant's participation is the market is lower (it greatly depends on the origin and sex but is always lower than the equivalent UK category).

    And also as I mentioned it can be seen that for some origins wives are definitely present and staying at home much more than average (see Pakistan and Bangladesh).

    Source: http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/16488/1/16488.pdf

    The one regarding women might be a bit unfair given that they came from patriarchal countries where few women worked. Anyway, there doesn't seem to be much difference in the men and it's not always lower for foreigners.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #78
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I do. Anyway, you can google it.

    Ok, i googled it, now I am only on page 4, but it seems they have worked out it a net of 5 billion over 17 years which is pretty insignificant, but they definitely do not factor in money sent back "home" which would dwarf that 5billion but also ridiculously they include a value for the education they received in their home country treating it as a valuable asset they bring with them completely skewing the figures, i suppose they had to do something to reach the conclusion they needed.


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    #79
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You didn't. I apologise. I confused you with another user.

    If the positives aren't big enough, why does every major party support immigration?

    good PR (anyone against it gets branded a racist automatically)
    more voters, of course they'll vote for who let them in
    they only think about the tax take in the short term, not the long term spend.


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    #80
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    gallag wrote: »
    Ok, i googled it, now I am only on page 4, but it seems they have worked out it a net of 5 billion over 17 years which is pretty insignificant, but they definitely do not factor in money sent back "home" which would dwarf that 5billion but also ridiculously they include a value for the education they received in their home country treating it as a valuable asset they bring with them completely skewing the figures, i suppose they had to do something to reach the conclusion they needed.

    I don't believe that. You can't find your hypothesis in your data. That sort of nonsense might fly at a so-called "think tank" but not with world leading institutions such as UCL.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #81
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    good PR (anyone against it gets branded a racist automatically)
    more voters, of course they'll vote for who let them in
    they only think about the tax take in the short term, not the long term spend.

    It's a philosophy which attracts racists though. A lot of them. Only Irish and UK citizens can vote in UK elections by the way and they have to be living in the UK.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #82
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't believe that. You can't find your hypothesis in your data. That sort of nonsense might fly at a so-called "think tank" but not with world leading institutions such as UCL.

    I dont understand?


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    #83
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Look at it another way, UCL are a world leading institution whose staff likely couldn't care less one way or anther.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #84
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's a philosophy which attracts racists though. A lot of them. Only Irish and UK citizens can vote in UK elections by the way and they have to be living in the UK.

    I don't doubt that, we all know thats true, but its just so automatic, the second a politician says "lets talk about immigration" the anti fascist league are outside the door shouting "nazi scum" at them .


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    #85
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The one regarding women might be a bit unfair given that they came from patriarchal countries where few women worked.

    So because there is an explanation for their lack of engagement in the workforce, its impact on the UK should be ignored?

    Strange way to look at statistics.
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Anyway, there doesn't seem to be much difference in the men and it's not always lower for foreigners.

    I'll just agree that for you there is no clear difference and for me the there is one - and let other people judge based on the numbers.


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    #86
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Bob24 wrote: »
    So because there is an explanation for their lack of engagement in the workforce, its impact on the UK should be ignored?

    Strange way to look at statistics.

    I never said that. I was just offering my opinion.
    Bob24 wrote: »
    I'll just agree that for you there is no clear difference and for me the there is one - and let other people judge based on the numbers.

    I said that it's not huge, not that it's not noticeable.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #87
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Look at it another way, UCL are a world leading institution whose staff likely couldn't care less one way or anther.

    Your not very good at this debating lark, are you? Anyway this is the part where they place a Value on the education the migrant brings that takes the final calculation from - to net +.

    "Immigrants also provide savings to the taxpayer by bringing with them educational
    qualifications paid for by their countries of origin. Calculating the annuities for
    immigrants’ effective education (i.e. the level of education corresponding to the
    educational requirement for their occupation), we find that between 1995 and 2011
    European immigrants endowed the UK labour market with human capital that would
    have cost £14 billion if it were produced through the British education system.
    Likewise, over the same period, the annuities of non-European immigrants’ education
    amounted to an implicit savings of more than £35 billion. Focusing on those
    immigrants who arrived between 2001 and 2011, such implicit savings to the UK
    taxpayers total about £18 billion."


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    #88
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    EU Immigration is an overwhelming net positive contribution to the UK economy.


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    #89
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    gallag wrote: »
    Your not very good at this debating lark, are you? Anyway this is the part where they place a Value on the education the migrant brings that takes the final calculation from - to net +.

    So, you're ignoring a contribution and then having a pop at me? And I'm not good at debating?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #90
    MathDebater
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭MathDebater


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Only Irish and UK citizens can vote in UK elections by the way and they have to be living in the UK.

    Certain qualifying commonwealth citizens resident in the UK can vote too. Canadians, Indians, Australians etc. Around a million commonwealth citizens were eligible to vote yesterday.

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/who-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election


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    #91
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    MathDebater wrote: »
    Certain qualifying commonwealth citizens resident in the UK can vote too. Canadians, Indians, Australians etc.

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/who-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election

    Didn't know that.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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