ANPR motor insurance database pulled

Atlantic Dawn

Looks like ANPR checks for motor insurance have been pulled and no longer part of the system...

Gardaí were forced to suspend a key part of one of their road traffic enforcement IT systems after errors in a database led to hundreds of thousands of drivers being wrongly identified as having failed to pay their car insurance, according to documents seen by RTÉ's This Week.


The database is part of the Automatic Number Plate Recognition system, or ANPR, which the force acquired for an estimated €6 million.


However, it has emerged that the database was "pulled" last year after flaws in the data led to more than one million "hits" for non-payment of motor insurance.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0503/698472-gardai-database/

Drummerboy08

The system is switched off in most cars apparently anyway because it flags every second motor!

Special Circumstances

Bonkers that the insurance companies wouldn't provide correct info - surely reducing the amount of uninsured drivers and increasing the total number of contributors to the pot would be in their interest????

Atlantic Dawn

The whole thing is somewhat of a joke, you have to put your insurance policy number in when getting your car taxed yet you could put in any old number or text you like and it would still accept it as there's no verification.

The Gardaí are probably 20 years off the UK in terms of technology they have at their disposal in their cars.

Special Circumstances

F**kers probably want €40 for each query of the database.

But seriously - will anything be done to whip the scummy sh1tes into shape? Shur maybe another levy on joe public's policy could be used as a carrot for the insurance companies. I doubt the stick will be coming out like.

ardmacha

There should be a standard Euro wide insurance number, something like an IBAN so that an European police force san easily verify insurance status. This should have been done years ago.

nice_guy80

In fairness to the Gardai, they often demand to see the insurance disc at checkpoints to check its not a forgery.

I wonder would 6% of cars being uninsured be a high figure compared to other jurisdictions

corcaigh1

Im confused, so the insurance companies are not providing the correct info to gardaí..?

Damien360

ardmacha wrote: »

There should be a standard Euro wide insurance number, something like an IBAN so that an European police force san easily verify insurance status. This should have been done years ago.

That's a great idea.

But can you imagine trying to get everyone to agree on a database format. Look at ireland for example. Very few government departments can share and all because of different database formats.

mickdw

nice_guy80 wrote: »

In fairness to the Gardai, they often demand to see the insurance disc at checkpoints to check its not a forgery.

That practice is not exactly compatible with the pdf format online cert as being issued now by axa and others. The only stipulation being that you print in colour in order to display green strip down the side.

Atlantic Dawn

Can you imagine the craic we would have if we went to the UK system of no tax, insurance or MOT/NCT discs?

Atlantic Dawn

corcaigh1 wrote: »

Im confused, so the insurance companies are not providing the correct info to gardaí..?

Yes it's on RTÉ news now, the say the data they are receiving from insurance companies is not correct.

Lemming

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Can you imagine the craic we would have if we went to the UK system of no tax, insurance or MOT/NCT discs?

The UK currently has tax discs as required to be displayed for the vehicle in question. And you can't get a tax disc without said vehicle's MOT status as being valid.

As for insurance discs, it's the driver who is insured, not the car (just like in Ireland). So you can drive around without insurance, but when you're caught you will be f*cked six ways from Sunday for it.

mickdw

Lemming wrote: »

The UK currently has tax discs as required to be displayed for the vehicle in question. And you can't get a tax disc without said vehicle's MOT status as being valid.

As for insurance discs, it's the driver who is insured, not the car (just like in Ireland). So you can drive around without insurance, but when you're caught you will be f*cked six ways from Sunday for it.

As far as I'm aware, the uk has done away with tax discs so it's now a blank windscreen over there.

alias no.9

Was this database ever populated with anything other than the details provided when renewing motor tax? If the tax and insurance periods are out of sync, it'd be no surprise that much of the details are out of date.

mickdw

alias no.9 wrote: »

Was this database ever populated with anything other than the details provided when renewing motor tax? If the tax and insurance periods are out of sync, it'd be no surprise that much of the details are out of date.

Ya I think they took their info from tax renewal form. This resulted in major flaws. As an example if my insurance had a month left to run when renewing my tax for a full year, after the month, that system would have me recorded as taxed but insurance recorded as lapsed with nothing to tell it that I had renewed on time .

Bigus

UK system is far from perfect ,going by those reality programs.

An awful lot of uninsured cars are driven here by fully insured drivers , ie motor trade policy holders , fleet policy holders with open drive , transport companies , etc etc.

carzony

Can't believe they've got this wrong lol. So now back to checking a reg on the radio and waiting for another member at the station to go through the computer..

Seems such an old way of doing things in this day and age.. Makes me wonder how reliable/accurate other technology their using is like pulse, penalty points database ect....

Marcusm

Lemming wrote: »

The UK currently has tax discs as required to be displayed for the vehicle in question. And you can't get a tax disc without said vehicle's MOT status as being valid.

As for insurance discs, it's the driver who is insured, not the car (just like in Ireland). So you can drive around without insurance, but when you're caught you will be f*cked six ways from Sunday for it.

The UK tax disc requirement ass abolished with effect from last October. The insurance position was changed a few years previously. the car is insured in respect of specified named drivers. It is not lawful to drive a car under a "driving other cars extension" unless there is also a policy of insurance in force in respect of the car. The stated reason for the latter change was due to a large number of "second cars" being uninsured and only driven by friends of the "registered keeper" under a 3rd party extension. In reality, the ANPR database can only be truly effective if each car has its own policy.

expectationlost

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0503/698472-gardai-database/

ANPR systems have become popular with police worldwide in recent years and are generally considered to be sophisticated and valuable road traffic enforcement tools when managed correctly.

It is designed around one piece of in-car hardware and several inter-linked databases.

The hardware device is fitted into a police car, and it scans number plates on passing vehicles while the police vehicle is on patrol.

These number plates are then cross-referenced against several databases to determine whether they are suspect, stolen, untaxed or uninsured.

There is no indication of concerns with the accuracy of data on the other databases tied into the ANPR system, other than the motor insurance file.

don't they have ANPR cameras at fixed points on the motorway network?

pred racer

State body buys expensive computer system and it doesnt work.........shocker

pa990

expectationlost wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0503/698472-gardai-database/

don't they have ANPR cameras at fixed points on the motorway network?

Officially thats just to record average travel times

Damien360

pred racer wrote: »

State body buys expensive computer system and it doesnt work.........shocker

A system is only as good as the data entered into it. If the insurance companies failed to enter the data into a system that by design happens to protect their profits, then there needs to be consequences for them.

Unfortunately, the end user gets hit by the consequences as the guards cannot pull the uninsured off the road.

Special Circumstances

carzony wrote: »

Can't believe they've got this wrong lol. So now back to checking a reg on the radio and waiting for another member at the station to go through the computer..

Seems such an old way of doing things in this day and age.. Makes me wonder how reliable/accurate other technology their using is like pulse, penalty points database ect....

This doesn't seem like a garda problem.
If the database they are supplied with is wrong, then it's gonna be wrong whether the computer queries it every second automatically or if Garda Murphy gets a phonecall from Garda Ryan out on the road to check it.

Seems the only way to know is issue a producer or call the alleged insurer directly rather than referring to junk info they supplied.

expectationlost

pa990 wrote: »

Officially thats just to record average travel times

Number plate scanners target speed and gangs http://www.herald.ie/news/number-plate-scanners-target-speed-and-gangs-29892344.html
06 January 2014

A nationwide network of sophisticated number plate recognition cameras are to be introduced on Irish motorways next year.

this article said fized ANPR cameras were being used as far back as 2012 in Limerick http://connachttribune.ie/gardai-deploy-secret-road-cameras-to-keep-tabs-on-criminals/

alias no.9

carzony wrote: »

Can't believe they've got this wrong lol. So now back to checking a reg on the radio and waiting for another member at the station to go through the computer..

Seems such an old way of doing things in this day and age.. Makes me wonder how reliable/accurate other technology their using is like pulse, penalty points database ect....

It doesn't matter a shyte how they query the database if the contents are garbage

expectationlost

Use of cameras to detect untaxed cars challenged in High Court

Luke Ronayne, from Claremorris, Co Mayo, is contesting a prosecution taken against him on the basis of evidence from a Garda camera for allegedly not having a tax disc. Mr Ronayne argues he cannot be prosecuted in this way because a failure to have a tax disc is an offence under the Finance Acts, but the law providing for the use of electronic recording equipment only covers the prosecution of road-traffic offences.

being challenged in the courts too it seems, this says that theres is no law for checking tax using anpr.

carzony

alias no.9 wrote: »

It doesn't matter a shyte how they query the database if the contents are garbage

so they have no way of knowing unless you produce or show them an actual cert at the roadside?

That is just laughable, no wonder these insurance dodgers are getting away with it.. Big task trying to catch uninsured drivers without technology like anpr these days..

it's such a basic thing that the guards should know aswell....

alias no.9

carzony wrote: »

so they have no way of knowing unless you produce or show them an actual cert at the roadside?

That is just laughable, no wonder these insurance dodgers are getting away with it.. Big task trying to catch uninsured drivers without technology like anpr these days..

it's such a basic thing that the guards should know aswell....

The news reports have been blaming the insurance companies for not providing the information but either way, a Garda manning a radio and sitting in front of a computer can't look up anything that an anpr unit in a car can't once there's a data connection

carzony

alias no.9 wrote: »

The news reports have been blaming the insurance companies for not providing the information but either way, a Garda manning a radio and sitting in front of a computer can't look up anything that an anpr unit in a car can't once there's a data connection

I just think it's a bit crazy that the info is not available to them.

So when your pulled over in future you'll know it's nothing personal, They just need to see your insurance cert :D

Melodeon

carzony wrote: »

Can't believe they've got this wrong lol. So now back to checking a reg on the radio and waiting for another member at the station to go through the computer..

Seems such an old way of doing things in this day and age.. Makes me wonder how reliable/accurate other technology their using is like pulse, penalty points database ect....

Regarding PULSE, the CSO don't trust the data supplied to them from it by the Gardai:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-may-delay-crime-figures-over-concerns-on-garda-data-1.2004644
http://www.thejournal.ie/crime-statistics-delayed-2032184-Apr2015/

...and the 'data' it contains in relation to firearms and their licencing is deeply suspect too, see this (very long) thread over in the Shooting forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057326486

I'd be sceptical of how accurate it is about anything, never mind motor vehicles

carzony

Melodeon wrote: »

Regarding PULSE, the CSO don't trust the data supplied to them from it by the Gardai:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-may-delay-crime-figures-over-concerns-on-garda-data-1.2004644
http://www.thejournal.ie/crime-statistics-delayed-2032184-Apr2015/

...and the 'data' it contains in relation to firearms and their licencing is deeply suspect too, see this (very long) thread over in the Shooting forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057326486

I'd be sceptical of how accurate it is about anything, never mind motor vehicles

I think they may be better going back to pen and paper:p

expectationlost

rtethisweek radio piece http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradiowebpage.html#!type=radio&rii=9%3A20773215%3A72%3A03%2D05%2D2015%3A

goov blaming insurance companies for not notifying part payment of insurance

do they not a have a toggle for, its being paid versus it they don't have insurance.

R.O.R

Bigus wrote: »

An awful lot of uninsured cars are driven here by fully insured drivers , ie motor trade policy holders , fleet policy holders with open drive , transport companies , etc etc.

The NFD should cover all those cases, but I doubt too many people bother to keep that fully up to date, which is probably part of the problem.

nice_guy80

So, basically bring your insurance cert in the car.

Don't like doing that, fear of break ins

Bigus

R.O.R wrote: »

The NFD should cover all those cases, but I doubt too many people bother to keep that fully up to date, which is probably part of the problem.

You'd have to employ an extra administrator in a garage just to put car regs on and off the database, very expensive overhead.

On a more pertinent note , while I'm all for everybody obeying the law,

I personally don't agree with the UK 's big brother, cctv approach,

We are fundamentally a different country, with different values so hopefully we are not going down that road,

The worst examples of UK cctv are the draconian bus lane enforcement rules , where people stopping to assist cardiac arrest have been punished along with councils breaking the law with regard to proper signage for bus lanes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2718809/Council-criticised-new-CCTV-camera-catches-700-drivers-day-bus-lanes-netting-600-000-fines-just-two-weeks.html

keithclancy

FFS .. I can stick in a dogs chip number into a european search page and find the details of its owner, can't see why they can't do the same for Insurance Details

expectationlost

so they blamed Insurance Ireland but no response from them?

visual

expectationlost wrote: »

so they blamed Insurance Ireland but no response from them?

Insurance is a big corporate business they aren't interested in providing a service or doing what's morally right.

They jump on any bandwagon that helps justify increases premiums, minimum effort maximum return but that's it.

Anyway no one has asked the obvious question yet how many million was sunk into this without anyone realising the information wasn't there.
Would have been better employing more garda to do the work instead of automating it.

Del2005

nice_guy80 wrote: »

So, basically bring your insurance cert in the car.

Don't like doing that, fear of break ins

Doesn't make any difference if you carry the cert or produce it 10 days later at the station, the Gardaí have no way of knowing if it's valid unless they call the insurance company and there's probably laws against them doing that.

visual wrote: »

Anyway no one has asked the obvious question yet how many million was sunk into this without anyone realising the information wasn't there.
Would have been better employing more garda to do the work instead of automating it.

A Garda at a checkpoint would have the exact same issues as the ANPR as the system works it just doesn't have the data.

It still works for Motortax, till the case quoted above is resolved, so it's not a complete waste of money and it wouldn't require too much action from the government to force insurance companies to provide a real time database to the Gardaí, since they already have it in the UK and are all insurance companies operate internationality.