Tax policy relevent on here ?

recipio

Is this an appropriate forum to discuss how government taxation affects our cost of living.?
It seems to me that while consumer spending is discretionary, taxation in all its forms makes this country a very expensive place to live. We grumble but generally accept it.
My pet hate is car tax, an immoral two tier tax imposed in 2008.it is the perfect metaphor for arrogance in government and I don't think it would be accepted in any other country.
With the internet, the entire EU becomes our shopping mall -isn't it ironic that we spend 4 billion online every year - most to the UK despite our weaker currency.
Anybody else got 'pet hates' ? - and mods, please move this thread if I'm inappropriate.

ohnonotgmail

recipio wrote: »

Is this an appropriate forum to discuss how government taxation affects our cost of living.?
It seems to me that while consumer spending is discretionary, taxation in all its forms makes this country a very expensive place to live. We grumble but generally accept it.
My pet hate is car tax, an immoral two tier tax imposed in 2008.it is the perfect metaphor for arrogance in government and I don't think it would be accepted in any other country.
With the internet, the entire EU becomes our shopping mall -isn't it ironic that we spend 4 billion online every year - most to the UK despite our weaker currency.
Anybody else got 'pet hates' ? - and mods, please move this thread if I'm inappropriate.

eh, car tax has existed long before 2008. all that happened is that they changed how the tax is calculated. which has generally made it cheaper. and it is not exclusive to ireland.

recipio

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

eh, car tax has existed long before 2008. all that happened is that they changed how the tax is calculated. which has generally made it cheaper. and it is not exclusive to ireland.

I know. My point is that that there are huge differences in car tax on identical models pre and post '08. Is this ethical ? If you were unfortunate enough to buy a large engined car pre '08 it becomes an ongoing tax burden. It is clearly a coercive tax as the pre '08 tax levels almost doubled in the higher tax bands.

ohnonotgmail

recipio wrote: »

I know. My point is that that there are huge differences in car tax on identical models pre and post '08. Is this ethical ? If you were unfortunate enough to buy a large engined car pre '08 it becomes an ongoing tax burden. It is clearly a coercive tax as the pre '08 tax levels almost doubled in the higher tax bands.

it was a coercivce tax. that was the point. get people to move to cars that produce less CO2

snubbleste

Capital Acquisitions Tax
Capital Gains Tax
Carbon tax on fuel
Citizenship application fee
Citizenship certification fee
Community rating on private health insurance
Customs tax on imported purchases /import duty
Development Levies
DIRT @ 41%
Dog Licence
Excise duty on alcohol & tobacco
Fuel - Excise Duty, NORA Stock Levy
Gift tax/CGT
Insurance policy levy 2% on Motor & Home
Local Property Tax
Motor Tax
NCT €55
Passport Renewal Fee €80
Plastic Bag Tax €0.22 per bag
Private Pension Levy 0.75% in 2014 0.15% in 2015
Public Service Obligation levy on energy bills
TV Licence €160
Septic tank charge
Stamp Duty on ATM cards €2.50/€5
Stamp Duty on Credit Cards €30
Stamp Duty on Cheques
Stamp Duty on Mortgages (1%)
Stamp Duty on Irish shares (1%)
University registration fees
VAT 23%/13.5%/9%
VRT
Water charges
Oh and the friggin Universal Social Charge and I think there is a singleton tax as well
aaaaaaaaaaaand relax.

recipio

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it was a coercivce tax. that was the point. get people to move to cars that produce less CO2

It costs a lot of money to change cars - and please don't say 'you can afford it if you have a large car.' - I can't.

Snubleste : great list - I'm going to print it out for pub discussions. !

ohnonotgmail

recipio wrote: »

It costs a lot of money to change cars - and please don't say 'you can afford it if you have a large car.' - I can't.

Snubleste : great list - I'm going to print it out for pub discussions. !

the change in how rates are calculated had no effect on existing cars. they continued to be taxed at the old rate. Owners of older cars were no worse after 2008. the change was an incentive to new car buyers to buy cars with lower CO2 emissions.

keithclancy

recipio wrote: »

Is this an appropriate forum to discuss how government taxation affects our cost of living.?
It seems to me that while consumer spending is discretionary, taxation in all its forms makes this country a very expensive place to live. We grumble but generally accept it.
My pet hate is car tax, an immoral two tier tax imposed in 2008.it is the perfect metaphor for arrogance in government and I don't think it would be accepted in any other country.
With the internet, the entire EU becomes our shopping mall -isn't it ironic that we spend 4 billion online every year - most to the UK despite our weaker currency.
Anybody else got 'pet hates' ? - and mods, please move this thread if I'm inappropriate.

Just did a quick calculation on net salary after deductions between the Netherlands (Where I live) Germany (Where I work) and Ireland (Where I'm visiting for 6 months)

Income of 30000 euros / year

Netherlands
Monthly Gross Income: 2500
Monthly Net: 1540

(Add on another 110 euros / month on Mandatory Health Insurance with 375 euros of Government Imposed own risk)
http://stepansuvorov.com/useIt/dit/

Germany:
Monthly Gross: 2500 Euros
Monthly Net Income: 1646

Church Tax Excluded but including Health Insurance
http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm

Ireland:
Monthly Gross: 2500 Euros
Monthly Net: 2071 Euros

http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/

My Dutch Motor Tax went up again, for a 2005 2.0 Diesel Volvo V50 I'm paying 1580 euros / year never mind that cars in Holland are bloody expensive as they have a similar Vehicle Registration Tax as Ireland (BPM)

Alcohol and Cigarettes are more expensive here in Ireland for sure, but day to day stuff is around the same with meat being around 30% less than the Netherlands and with much better quality (In my opinion)

The list posted by snubbleste looks like a Carbon Copy of the Dutch / German miscellaneous tax addons (e.g. the German Solidarity Fund like the Universal Social Charge)

recipio

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the change in how rates are calculated had no effect on existing cars. they continued to be taxed at the old rate. Owners of older cars were no worse after 2008. the change was an incentive to new car buyers to buy cars with lower CO2 emissions.

True, but owners of older cars took a double whammy - their tax went up substantially and the value of their cars plummeted. My tax went from 600 to 1030 while a new owner of (say ) a Mercedes C class pays 280 after 2008.
I'm not just whinging about paying tax - I just don't think different levels of tax should be levied on identical goods based on nothing but chronology.
If this an example of the kind of left wing coercion that the Green party/ Fianna Fail believe in its goodbye to any vote from me.

ben.schlomo

recipio wrote: »

It costs a lot of money to change cars - and please don't say 'you can afford it if you have a large car.' - I can't.

Snubleste : great list - I'm going to print it out for pub discussions. !

Some night out.

delahuntv

recipio wrote: »

With the internet, the entire EU becomes our shopping mall -isn't it ironic that we spend 4 billion online every year - most to the UK despite our weaker currency.
.

But if any store is selling over €100k into Ireland, they have to apply Irish Vat - so most of those sales contribute vat to Ireland.

Where tax is unfair in Ireland is for those earning over 34k - anything over that is taxed at near 50%.

Those earning under 30k pay the lowest direct taxation in Europe and under 18k pay nothing at all except a tiny bit of USC.


A good worker earning 50k-70k is probably hardest hit and hopefully it changes in the budget. A middle tax rate of 30%-32% for 35k-60k would be nice (I can dream)

ohnonotgmail

delahuntv wrote: »

But if any store is selling over €100k into Ireland, they have to apply Irish Vat - so most of those sales contribute vat to Ireland.

Where tax is unfair in Ireland is for those earning over 34k - anything over that is taxed at near 50%.

Those earning under 30k pay the lowest direct taxation in Europe and under 18k pay nothing at all except a tiny bit of USC.


A good worker earning 50k-70k is probably hardest hit and hopefully it changes in the budget. A middle tax rate of 30%-32% for 35k-60k would be nice (I can dream)

when you take PRSI and USC into account i think it actually nudges over the 50% mark.

and there is no fear of the government looking after people in the 50-70 bracket. we're just cash cows with seemingly endless pockets

recipio

delahuntv wrote: »

But if any store is selling over €100k into Ireland, they have to apply Irish Vat - so most of those sales contribute vat to Ireland.

Amazon are the only company I know of that apply the 23% vat rate. I've bought a lot of items from UK companies at the 21% rate ( I wish they would repeat the 15% trial rate under Gordon Browne )
As for cars and motor tax, I accept it is is treated as a cash cow by many Governments. Its just hard not to compare NI and Republic rates and weep.

recipio

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Some night out.

Better than talking golf etc

Eugene Norman

snubbleste wrote: »

Capital Acquisitions Tax
Capital Gains Tax
Carbon tax on fuel
Citizenship application fee
Citizenship certification fee
Community rating on private health insurance
Customs tax on imported purchases /import duty
Development Levies
DIRT @ 41%
Dog Licence
Excise duty on alcohol & tobacco
Fuel - Excise Duty, NORA Stock Levy
Gift tax/CGT
Insurance policy levy 2% on Motor & Home
Local Property Tax
Motor Tax
NCT €55
Passport Renewal Fee €80
Plastic Bag Tax €0.22 per bag
Private Pension Levy 0.75% in 2014 0.15% in 2015
Public Service Obligation levy on energy bills
TV Licence €160
Septic tank charge
Stamp Duty on ATM cards €2.50/€5
Stamp Duty on Credit Cards €30
Stamp Duty on Cheques
Stamp Duty on Mortgages (1%)
Stamp Duty on Irish shares (1%)
University registration fees
VAT 23%/13.5%/9%
VRT
Water charges
Oh and the friggin Universal Social Charge and I think there is a singleton tax as well
aaaaaaaaaaaand relax.

Why do people think gains in capital shouldn't be taxed? That's ludicrous.

kippy

recipio wrote: »

True, but owners of older cars took a double whammy - their tax went up substantially and the value of their cars plummeted. My tax went from 600 to 1030 while a new owner of (say ) a Mercedes C class pays 280 after 2008.
I'm not just whinging about paying tax - I just don't think different levels of tax should be levied on identical goods based on nothing but chronology.
If this an example of the kind of left wing coercion that the Green party/ Fianna Fail believe in its goodbye to any vote from me.

But they are not identical goods. The registration year makes them different........
I'm in the same boat and that's life unfortunately. You've a choice/decision to make based on the environment you are in.
In a few years time your car will either be a classic or you'll have changed it anyway and forgotten about it.

Frynge

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Why do people think gains in capital shouldn't be taxed? That's ludicrous.

I certainly wouldnt think that but i do think there should be a much higher allowence for gifts/inheiritance between a person and there next of kin. I.e. not just parent to child.

L1011

recipio wrote: »

Amazon are the only company I know of that apply the 23% vat rate. I've bought a lot of items from UK companies at the 21% rate ( I wish they would repeat the 15% trial rate under Gordon Browne )
As for cars and motor tax, I accept it is is treated as a cash cow by many Governments. Its just hard not to compare NI and Republic rates and weep.

Must be dealing with tiny firms. Even the audio suppliers I use all have IE VAT numbers despite being bases across Europe.

recipio

L1011 wrote: »

Must be dealing with tiny firms. Even the audio suppliers I use all have IE VAT numbers despite being bases across Europe.

I am surprised. I buy tools, mainly from UK shops and they all apply 21% vat. Just out of curiosity is the extra 2% remitted back to the Irish revenue ?

ohnonotgmail

recipio wrote: »

I am surprised. I buy tools, mainly from UK shops and they all apply 21% vat. Just out of curiosity is the extra 2% remitted back to the Irish revenue ?

if they are charging 23% vat then they are registered with the revenue commissioners and the entire 23% goes to them

L1011

recipio wrote: »

I am surprised. I buy tools, mainly from UK shops and they all apply 21% vat. Just out of curiosity is the extra 2% remitted back to the Irish revenue ?

The whole 23% goes to Revenue, ditto Irish stores selling more than the threshold to the UK give the entire lot to HMRC.

MemoryC out in Celbridge have UK and German and possibly more VAT numbers on their site due to going over the thresholds.

delahuntv

recipio wrote: »

As for cars and motor tax, I accept it is is treated as a cash cow by many Governments. Its just hard not to compare NI and Republic rates and weep.

And the NI residents weep when they see our diesel prices! - high, but about 35c cheaper than NI per litre

oscillating wildely

Whilst your nett income may be higher in Ireland what services do you get for it?

We pay twice for bins and now water; supposed to have been covered by our PRSI payments. You are left on a hospital trolley if you are sick unless you pay for private healthcare. Childcare costs are the highest in Europe and we also have to pay extra for education etc.

In every other country whilst you may pay higher taxes you actually get value for money for those taxes whereas in Ireland you get nothing of benefit unless you aren't working.

keithclancy wrote: »

Just did a quick calculation on net salary after deductions between the Netherlands (Where I live) Germany (Where I work) and Ireland (Where I'm visiting for 6 months)

Income of 30000 euros / year

Netherlands
Monthly Gross Income: 2500
Monthly Net: 1540

(Add on another 110 euros / month on Mandatory Health Insurance with 375 euros of Government Imposed own risk)
http://stepansuvorov.com/useIt/dit/

Germany:
Monthly Gross: 2500 Euros
Monthly Net Income: 1646

Church Tax Excluded but including Health Insurance
http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm

Ireland:
Monthly Gross: 2500 Euros
Monthly Net: 2071 Euros

http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/

My Dutch Motor Tax went up again, for a 2005 2.0 Diesel Volvo V50 I'm paying 1580 euros / year never mind that cars in Holland are bloody expensive as they have a similar Vehicle Registration Tax as Ireland (BPM)

Alcohol and Cigarettes are more expensive here in Ireland for sure, but day to day stuff is around the same with meat being around 30% less than the Netherlands and with much better quality (In my opinion)

The list posted by snubbleste looks like a Carbon Copy of the Dutch / German miscellaneous tax addons (e.g. the German Solidarity Fund like the Universal Social Charge)

TripleMinor

snubbleste wrote: »

Capital Acquisitions Tax
Capital Gains Tax
Carbon tax on fuel
Citizenship application fee
Citizenship certification fee
Community rating on private health insurance
Customs tax on imported purchases /import duty
Development Levies
DIRT @ 41%
Dog Licence
Excise duty on alcohol & tobacco
Fuel - Excise Duty, NORA Stock Levy
Gift tax/CGT
Insurance policy levy 2% on Motor & Home
Local Property Tax
Motor Tax
NCT €55
Passport Renewal Fee €80
Plastic Bag Tax €0.22 per bag
Private Pension Levy 0.75% in 2014 0.15% in 2015
Public Service Obligation levy on energy bills
TV Licence €160
Septic tank charge
Stamp Duty on ATM cards €2.50/€5
Stamp Duty on Credit Cards €30
Stamp Duty on Cheques
Stamp Duty on Mortgages (1%)
Stamp Duty on Irish shares (1%)
University registration fees
VAT 23%/13.5%/9%
VRT
Water charges
Oh and the friggin Universal Social Charge and I think there is a singleton tax as well
aaaaaaaaaaaand relax.

Bear Tax
Homer Tax

animaal

keithclancy wrote: »

Income of 30000 euros / year

Netherlands
Monthly Gross Income: 2500
Monthly Net: 1540

(Add on another 110 euros / month on Mandatory Health Insurance with 375 euros of Government Imposed own risk)
http://stepansuvorov.com/useIt/dit/

Germany:
Monthly Gross: 2500 Euros
Monthly Net Income: 1646

Church Tax Excluded but including Health Insurance
http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm

Ireland:
Monthly Gross: 2500 Euros
Monthly Net: 2071 Euros

http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/

While this is very likely true, it's only a small part of the picture.

In this country, it's been decided that people around the average industrial wage should pay little or no direct tax. That may be a socially wise decision, but it doesn't mean that income tax is low across the board. A person who earns higher than the average industrial wage will hit higher rates of tax quicker than the countries you've mentioned. If you had chosen an example of a single person earning €60k, I think the picture would be different to that described. And for a person earning €80k, even more so.

And as has been said, those who do actually pay income taxes here get very little in return, in comparison to those other countries. So if I want health care that's as good as that provided in Germany, I need to pay for health insurance on top of my taxes.

I agree that we can't have low taxes and Scandinavian levels of public services. However, plenty of people here are paying high taxes, and getting substandard services in return.

keithclancy

animaal wrote: »

While this is very likely true, it's only a small part of the picture.

In this country, it's been decided that people around the average industrial wage should pay little or no direct tax. That may be a socially wise decision, but it doesn't mean that income tax is low across the board. A person who earns higher than the average industrial wage will hit higher rates of tax quicker than the countries you've mentioned. If you had chosen an example of a single person earning €60k, I think the picture would be different to that described. And for a person earning €80k, even more so.

And as has been said, those who do actually pay income taxes here get very little in return, in comparison to those other countries. So if I want health care that's as good as that provided in Germany, I need to pay for health insurance on top of my taxes.

I agree that we can't have low taxes and Scandinavian levels of public services. However, plenty of people here are paying high taxes, and getting substandard services in return.

The same calculation on 60000

Netherlands:

Monthly net income:
3019

Germany:

Monthly net income:
2901

Ireland:

Monthly net income:
3306

Also many services in Germany and the Netherlands are paid separately through City Taxes that are not included in the above calculation.

You have an extra 4860 euros in your pocket earning the same amount of income in Ireland compared to someone working in Germany or 3444 more than a person working in the Netherlands.

For example we pay the so called Solidarity charge for Eastern Germany but we see no benefit for it in the West of Germany, so I don't really see your point.

The quality and availability of Healthcare is very much dependent on where you live, many Irish people have the perception that services are excellent in Germany and the Netherlands because they have only ever visited a large city. If you live in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht then you'll have a hospital and clinic close by you can go to. If you live in some village in Zeeland or up north in Friesland then the services are no where near as good.

There are many places that the services are not as readily available as you think.

Saying that I just had an experience recently with the South Tipperary General Hospital an Ambulance was on the scene within 10 minutes, admission was immediate and a bed was available in the ICU, the staff were professional and friendly and the Hospital was clean.

So I wouldn't tar the entire Healthcare system in Ireland as completely rubbish, nor would I say that you get very little in return actually many things are taken care of for you, you don't even have to do a tax return, your employer takes care of nearly all of your tax obligations at source.

oscillating wildely wrote: »

Whilst your nett income may be higher in Ireland what services do you get for it?

We pay twice for bins and now water; supposed to have been covered by our PRSI payments. You are left on a hospital trolley if you are sick unless you pay for private healthcare. Childcare costs are the highest in Europe and we also have to pay extra for education etc.

In every other country whilst you may pay higher taxes you actually get value for money for those taxes whereas in Ireland you get nothing of benefit unless you aren't working.

We pay city taxes for this, we also pay Water per cubic meter and a standing charge for supply of service. We also have a charge for water defence (To stop the place from flooding)

This paying twice argument makes no sense, National Rail in the Netherlands is subsidized by the government, so why should I pay to use the Train service if I've already paid for it ?

We also pay for education here, actually my Wife went to Ireland to do her foreign period abroad, we had to pay the Registration charges twice, once in the Netherlands and once in Ireland as well.

In rubbishing healthcare, this is a pointless argument, I can also point out failings in the Dutch Healthcare system (that it's basically very hard to get into secondary care unless you are bleeding all over someone)

The "Take paracetamol and come back if you have problems" is a normal thing every Dutch resident is used to:
http://inburgeringadventure.blogspot.de/2011/05/take-paracetamol-and-come-back-in-week.html

I'll agree with Ireland has problems, but I don't know an Irish person that has come to the Netherlands or Germany and didn't have a complete shock on how much disposable income you have left after paying everything required to live and have a roof over your head.

Geuze

oscillating wildely wrote: »

We pay twice for bins and now water; supposed to have been covered by our PRSI payments. You are left on a hospital trolley if you are sick unless you pay for private healthcare. Childcare costs are the highest in Europe and we also have to pay extra for education etc.

PRSI never covered bins or water charges.

Geuze

My parents pay less than 10% direct taxes on nearly 50k income

In return, they get:

2 med cards
2 travel passes
free TV licence
35 pm / 420 pa off their electricity bill

To me, this is a very generous State, too much so, that's why we have to borrow each year.

animaal

keithclancy wrote: »

The same calculation on 60000

Netherlands:

Monthly net income:
3019

Germany:

Monthly net income:
2901

Ireland:

Monthly net income:
3306

Good information, thanks. This confirms what you're saying.

At low incomes, Ireland takes far less tax than anywhere else. Then at medium to high income levels, our tax rates start to catch up with the northern European countries, and pretty much matches them at the very high levels.

I'd be surprised if general service provision in countries like Germany was no better than ours; I think any of the German people I know would raise hell if they were brought to hospital in Germany and wound up spending days on a trolley.

keithclancy

animaal wrote: »

Good information, thanks. This confirms what you're saying.

At low incomes, Ireland takes far less tax than anywhere else. Then at medium to high income levels, our tax rates start to catch up with the northern European countries, and pretty much matches them at the very high levels.

I'd be surprised if general service provision in countries like Germany was no better than ours; I think any of the German people I know would raise hell if they were brought to hospital in Germany and wound up spending days on a trolley.

It's population density, Ireland is a relatively large country for the population size.

Netherlands for example has 16.8 million people in an area less than twice the size of Munster. (NL 41,526 km² - Munster 24,675 km²)

If you wanted the same level of coverage/quality for services in Ireland as say the Netherlands you would be looking closer to Scandinavian levels of taxation. That's not a tax problem, it's a population density problem.

Germany is a Federal state so some areas have much better services than others. Roads in NRW for example are nowhere near the same quality as in Berlin.

But you have to remember that there are many indirect taxes that are not deducted from source in NL/DE just like in Ireland

rubadub

delahuntv wrote: »

But if any store is selling over €100k into Ireland, they have to apply Irish Vat - so most of those sales contribute vat to Ireland.

The limit is currently €35,000

recipio wrote: »

Amazon are the only company I know of that apply the 23% vat rate. I've bought a lot of items from UK companies at the 21% rate

There are plenty of companies I buy from that charge Irish VAT. Many will force you to use a different site altogether, and often the difference is even higher than the VAT difference.

Some items have zero VAT too, e.g. a cycling helmet for a 12 year old or older is 23% here and zero in the UK. Current UK VAT is 20% not 21%

keithclancy

rubadub wrote: »

The limit is currently €35,000

There are plenty of companies I buy from that charge Irish VAT. Many will force you to use a different site altogether, and often the difference is even higher than the VAT difference.

Some items have zero VAT too, e.g. a cycling helmet for a 12 year old or older is 23% here and zero in the UK. Current UK VAT is 20% not 21%

Although any saving is almost completely negated by the exchange rate at the moment

munchkin_utd

just reposting this again, as it Shows clearly how Ireland is a VERY low tax economy. With the 100s of euros per month extra cash in hand the likes of slightly higher booze prices are far from unaffordable.

keithclancy wrote: »

Just did a quick calculation on net salary after deductions between the Netherlands (Where I live) Germany (Where I work) and Ireland (Where I'm visiting for 6 months)

Income of 30000 euros / year

Netherlands
Monthly take home: 1540

Germany:
Monthly take home: 1646

Ireland:
Monthly take home: 2071 Euros

on 30grand you've €531 per month less tax than Holland and €425 less than Germany

In a year thats €6372 less tax (aka more cash in hand) in Ireland than Holland and €5100 compared to Germany.

insane to think that Ireland is going to reduce tax further because theres a perception that its too high!