Question on Starlings?

OBaoghil.7

I have a problem with starlings. As well as using our outbuildings to nest they also try very hard to get entry to our house via the gutter / tile line to the attic. Over recent years I have had to block their entry. My question is why do garden bird surveys / watches include starlings a "garden Birds". In my view, they are no more a garden bird than crow's, rooks etc. They are large flock birds that in some situations take over the whole environment in which they congregate. I have been to many cities where they live in 1000's and the noise is deafening. Closer to home, they will rob another bird of it's nest for themselves.
These birds are protected by law as the view is the species is declining, yet I have only seen an increase in numbers of these birds in both cities and countryside. We don't always appreciate crow's behaviour and noise so why do we accept the starlings and why are they given the status (garden bird) by the "organisations".

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Rooks, Jackdaws, Starlings etc are all included in Garden bird surveys if they occur in gardens. Likewise the buzzards and cormorants I have recorded in Garden surveys over the years.

Many birds rob nests; it's called nature.

You seem to want to reclassify Starlings as vermin or suchlike - well not on a Nature forum surely!

OBaoghil.7

Shepherd Icy Acorn wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Rooks, Jackdaws, Starlings etc are all included in Garden bird surveys if they occur in gardens. Likewise the buzzards and cormorants I have recorded in Garden surveys over the years.

Many birds rob nests; it's called nature.

You seem to want to reclassify Starlings as vermin or suchlike - well not on a Nature forum surely!

I haven't said that. You have! I was trying to understand why they are included in surveys etc as garden birds. You state you carry out surveys. Well good for you but as far as I am concerned I do not see starlings, crows or Buzzards as garden birds. Cormorants are certainly not a garden at all. (seen in a garden or otherwise)
Starlings in some cities are regarded as vermin, as are pigeons in some cities. It does not mean that I consider them as vermin.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Starlings are actually classed by many as an urban bird. Of course they are a garden bird. What else would they be? Are they common in gardens? Yes, and always were. They are of course garden birds. So are "crows". I don't understand how you would consider starlings as anything but garden birds.

OBaoghil.7

Please define what is a garden bird?

IMHO I do not consider flock birds as garden birds. I consider garden birds being birds that reside in the garden at certain times of the year. Birds that use the garden for nesting or food. I do not consider birds that are of flocks or are of, say, the marine environment, such as your cormorant. There are opportunists such as herons that will take fish from garden ponds but just because they took advantage of the situation doesn't class them as a "garden bird". Their natural environment is the riverside and estuaries

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

What is the natural environment for nesting starlings? Urban areas and gardens!
Are flock birds like house sparrows not garden birds?

I don't get how you don't consider a staling to be a garden bird at all. Sorry!

OBaoghil.7

Starlings don't nest in my garden and they don't feed in my garden. They nest in the farm outbuildings and they congregate in masses on the telegraph lines and in the trees. A few try each year to nest in our attic which I prevent. House sparrows have always been associated with humans and not a flock bird as opposed to Hedge sparrows and other finches.
My questions was: why do the garden bird surveys include starlings as garden birds as IMHO they do not seem to be garden birds? The surveys suggest that Starlings are in decline. Well that maybe so from a garden watch perspective but in the country there are huge flocks and the same in major cities. Certainly from observing them "outside" the garden there seems to be more of them than ever.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I'm not going to keep repeating myself but, regardless of how you class them, Starlings are garden birds.

OpenYourEyes

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

My questions was: why do the garden bird surveys include starlings as garden birds as IMHO they do not seem to be garden birds? The surveys suggest that Starlings are in decline. Well that maybe so from a garden watch perspective but in the country there are huge flocks and the same in major cities. Certainly from observing them "outside" the garden there seems to be more of them than ever.

They feed and breed in and around gardens, very commonly, so they very comprehensively meet the criteria to be called a garden bird.

We have scientific surveys to establish population status and trends without bias - if this info was left up to one individual they could see 4 or 5 starlings on power lines outside their house and base their judgement solely on that. They're in decline across Europe as well as Ireland.

Most places where they're considered a pest are where they were introduced by humans, so very different to the situation here

OBaoghil.7

Shepherd Icy Acorn wrote: »

I'm not going to keep repeating myself but, regardless of how you class them, Starlings are garden birds.

With all due respect, I am not asking you to do anything let alone repeat yourself! I have my opinion to which I am entitled to. I haven't classed the starling, you have. You believe they fit the criteria for being a "garden bird" In my view and through my observations in many locations I do not see the starling as a "garden bird". However, as you believe a cormorant can be classed as a garden bird I will leave you to your conclusions for fear of you having to repeat yourself.

OBaoghil.7

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

They feed and breed in and around gardens, very commonly, so they very comprehensively meet the criteria to be called a garden bird.

We have scientific surveys to establish population status and trends without bias - if this info was left up to one individual they could see 4 or 5 starlings on power lines outside their house and base their judgement solely on that. They're in decline across Europe as well as Ireland.

Most places where they're considered a pest are where they were introduced by humans, so very different to the situation here

I have lived in many towns and cities and I have lived in the country. I have never known the starling to feed (naturally) in my gardens. I don't just see 4 or 5 starlings on the wire. They may reduce numbers when nesting but congregate in masses. I have them in their hundreds at times, especially just before the breeding season starts. They never feed in my garden and as mentioned never nest in the garden but in the out buildings of our farm and the other farms in the area.
Why did humans introduce them to cities and when did this happen?

Alun

I get them in my suburban garden regularly in small groups along with all the other birds.

ThunderCat

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

With all due respect, I am not asking you to do anything let alone repeat yourself! I have my opinion to which I am entitled to. I haven't classed the starling, you have. You believe they fit the criteria for being a "garden bird" In my view and through my observations in many locations I do not see the starling as a "garden bird". However, as you believe a cormorant can be classed as a garden bird I will leave you to your conclusions for fear of you having to repeat yourself.

In fairness he said he has recorded as seeing a cormorant in the garden. A rare occurrence indeed. Not so rare for the starling.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

I have lived in many towns and cities and I have lived in the country. I have never known the starling to feed (naturally) in my gardens. I don't just see 4 or 5 starlings on the wire. They may reduce numbers when nesting but congregate in masses. I have them in their hundreds at times, especially just before the breeding season starts. They never feed in my garden and as mentioned never nest in the garden but in the out buildings of our farm and the other farms in the area.
Why did humans introduce them to cities and when did this happen?

What you are seeing is the gathering of flocks of overwintering birds prior to their migration north in Spring. The large winter flocks are not native birds. Likewise in Autumn flocks of young birds form. Flocks of 10000+ are not unusual around me at times. But they are still among my regular garden visitors.

OBaoghil.7

ThunderCat wrote: »

In fairness he said he has recorded as seeing a cormorant in the garden. A rare occurrence indeed. Not so rare for the starling.

Therefore, seeing a bird in the garden doesn't make it a "garden bird". I am just trying establish what defines the "garden bird" as I believe the starling is a global flock bird that seems to get attention here and in europe as a bird in decline when in fact globally it is not declining. It is a bird that is viewed in some countries as a pest and are culled to keep their populations down or as in France, killed at anytime. I am not advocating this but I am suggesting that this flock bird is not a "garden bird". It may be seen during the breeding season as they like buildings or holes in trees but in my opinion they are not garden birds. When they fill a fully grown ash tree they can be quite intimidating with the noise they make.

ThunderCat

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

Therefore, seeing a bird in the garden doesn't make it a "garden bird". I am just trying establish what defines the "garden bird" as I believe the starling is a global flock bird that seems to get attention here and in europe as a bird in decline when in fact globally it is not declining. It is a bird that is viewed in some countries as a pest and are culled to keep their populations down or as in France, killed at anytime. I am not advocating this but I am suggesting that this flock bird is not a "garden bird". It may be seen during the breeding season as they like buildings or holes in trees but in my opinion they are not garden birds. When they fill a fully grown ash tree they can be quite intimidating with the noise they make.

But in the case of the starling if you were to monitor any garden, be it urban or rural, I'm confident that at some point every single day over any time period you like you would see a starling. This surely constitutes it being a garden bird if you are seeing it in a garden day after day, season after season. Even when the homeowner isn't putting out food for the wild birds, you will still get starlings in the garden foraging.
It's a flock bird in the regard that you see aerial displays from many hundreds if not thousands of them late in the evening at certain times of the year, but you also see similar aerial displays from knots for example but they would still be classed as wading birds the same as other wading birds that don't flock. Just because starlings at times flock as during their aerial displays, it doesn't make them any less of a garden bird in my opinion as a blackbird that does not flock.
Also abundance or scarcity of a certain bird in one location does not given a full picture as to it's overall population increase or decline.

chicorytip

However you classify them - garden birds or otherwise -Starlings must surely rank alongside Magpies and Wood Pigeons as the most unlikeable members of the bird species. The are horrible sounding, greasy looking, voracious feeders and stupendous ****ters.
They do indeed populate domestic gardens, raiding bird tables and,by virtue of the sheer size of their flocks, depriving smaller birds of food. Pests and a damn nuisance !

OBaoghil.7

ThunderCat wrote: »

But in the case of the starling if you were to monitor any garden, be it urban or rural, I'm confident that at some point every single day over any time period you like you would see a starling. This surely constitutes it being a garden bird if you are seeing it in a garden day after day, season after season. Even when the homeowner isn't putting out food for the wild birds, you will still get starlings in the garden foraging.
It's a flock bird in the regard that you see aerial displays from many hundreds if not thousands of them late in the evening at certain times of the year, but you also see similar aerial displays from knots for example but they would still be classed as wading birds the same as other wading birds that don't flock. Just because starlings at times flock as during their aerial displays, it doesn't make them any less of a garden bird in my opinion as a blackbird that does not flock.
Also abundance or scarcity of a certain bird in one location does not given a full picture as to it's overall population increase or decline.

As I have mentioned, I do not see them in my garden. They nest in our outhouses but they do not use my gardens for food. Just prior to breeding they appeared in their 100's (as they do every year) and are actively seeking somewhere to nest. On one occasion last year, there must have been over a 1000 starlings in an ash tree by my house. Once the breeding season is over they disappear again. They do not stay here other than during the breeding season and they find their food elsewhere. Not in my garden. These are my circumstances which I have to draw conclusions from.

swifts need our help!

I have starlings in my garden all the time especially over the winter and spring when they can get to the soil. Just now my garden is covered in leaf growth so I don't see them so much just now. Just now I'm seeing what I assume to be females searching my troughs for little snails for help form egg shells. They drop in all the time. One arriving does pull in others because many eyes are better than one pair of eyes

I would say a starling is as much associated with man as sparrows which are flock birds. Starlings always associate together and nest in loose colonies as do sparrows. Both are also capable of nesting by themselves out in the countryside

OpenYourEyes

chicorytip wrote: »

However you classify them - garden birds or otherwise -Starlings must surely rank alongside Magpies and Wood Pigeons as the most unlikeable members of the bird species. The are horrible sounding, greasy looking, voracious feeders and stupendous ****ters.
They do indeed populate domestic gardens, raiding bird tables and,by virtue of the sheer size of their flocks, depriving smaller birds of food. Pests and a damn nuisance !

They are a fantastic looking bird when the light hits them - black with metallic greens and purples - really amazing colours.

They're no more "voracious" than any other bird or mammal, and similarly don't "raid" bird tables any more than any other species.

I think people overestimate how much some species deny others of food too. I have a flock of 30-60 greenfinch in my garden every winter, and yet they aren't denying any other birds of food. I also get 10-20 Rooks, who may keep some other brids at bay while they're present, but over the course of the day the other birds get and take as much food as they otherwise would.

OpenYourEyes

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

I am not advocating this but I am suggesting that this flock bird is not a "garden bird". It may be seen during the breeding season as they like buildings or holes in trees but in my opinion they are not garden birds. When they fill a fully grown ash tree they can be quite intimidating with the noise they make.

If Joe Soap is doing a garden bird survey, he is listing all of the species of birds that visit his garden over the survey period. He is not listing all of the bird species that he likes that visit his garden, he is not listing all of the bird species minus two, etc. etc. As a reference point, if a bird uses gardens with some regularity they are worthy of being called garden birds. For example, Lesser Redpoll are called a garden bird and yet they are in gardens a hell of a lot less than starlings are.


The vast majority of people would say they're impressive with the noise they make. The thousands you see are wintering birds, from a number of other countries that stay in Ireland from roughly October to March every year. They're not looking for nests, they're gathering together so they can all go to spend the night together so that they will have safety in numbers from various predators. I've had over 2,000 Starlings in my garden for a couple of minutes last winter as they made their way to the local roost - a fantastic sight!

OBaoghil.7

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

If Joe Soap is doing a garden bird survey, he is listing all of the species of birds that visit his garden over the survey period. He is not listing all of the bird species that he likes that visit his garden, he is not listing all of the bird species minus two, etc. etc. As a reference point, if a bird uses gardens with some regularity they are worthy of being called garden birds. For example, Lesser Redpoll are called a garden bird and yet they are in gardens a hell of a lot less than starlings are.


The vast majority of people would say they're impressive with the noise they make. The thousands you see are wintering birds, from a number of other countries that stay in Ireland from roughly October to March every year. They're not looking for nests, they're gathering together so they can all go to spend the night together so that they will have safety in numbers from various predators. I've had over 2,000 Starlings in my garden for a couple of minutes last winter as they made their way to the local roost - a fantastic sight!

I don't carry out surveys so I cannot be held guilty of listing only birds I like. However, I cannot accept that just because birds such as starlings and crows visit the garden are therefore "garden Birds" they generally don't reside there. the crows and rooks that visit my garden roost or nest miles. they are just opportunists.
You may like the sound of starlings but I would suggest that the "majority" of people do not like their sound. I have some knowledge of starlings and I know that they congregate in large flocks and splinter off to find suitable nests sites. I know this as I see them doing this (the common starling) every year. As i have said previously. They do not come into my gardens and they do not steal the food I put out in the winter for the other residents. They are not a problem to me in the garden. My problem is they are determined to get into my attic every year. I dont mind them using the farm buildings but I do not want them in my attic. Their population is supposed to be declining yet i am finding more numbers coming to nest here each year. I have swallows that come here every year and they are happy to use the farm buildings and never try the house. Starlings are more determined and persistent.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Your roof/tiles obviously suit them. Swallows don't use roof spaces.

Put bird guards in the guttering if you are unhappy with them using the roof space. They are finding a way in, so block it.

OpenYourEyes

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

I don't carry out surveys so I cannot be held guilty of listing only birds I like. However, I cannot accept that just because birds such as starlings and crows visit the garden are therefore "garden Birds" they generally don't reside there. the crows and rooks that visit my garden roost or nest miles. they are just opportunists.
You may like the sound of starlings but I would suggest that the "majority" of people do not like their sound. I have some knowledge of starlings and I know that they congregate in large flocks and splinter off to find suitable nests sites. I know this as I see them doing this (the common starling) every year. As i have said previously. They do not come into my gardens and they do not steal the food I put out in the winter for the other residents. They are not a problem to me in the garden. My problem is they are determined to get into my attic every year. I dont mind them using the farm buildings but I do not want them in my attic. Their population is supposed to be declining yet i am finding more numbers coming to nest here each year. I have swallows that come here every year and they are happy to use the farm buildings and never try the house. Starlings are more determined and persistent.

I wasn't accusing you of it - merely trying to point out the absurdity of your argument.

I have Rooks nesting in my garden, and I have had Starlings nesting in my roof - as have both of my neighbours. Similarly both feed in my garden. So they both feed and breed in my garden -as they do in thousands of gardens across the country - hence why they're considered garden birds. Just because they're considered garden birds does not preclude them from being called Farmland Birds either - but given that they're generalists, rather than specialists, they probably fit more comfortably into the classification of garden birds.

It doesnt matter if 20 of them decided to nest in your kitchen - they are declining across Ireland and across Europe, and unless you find a previously undiscovered island in EU waters that has 1million+ breeding Starlings on it, then your personal dissatisfaction with that fact matters not.


You don't like Starlings nesting in your house - we get it! They are declining though, and they are garden birds too.

OBaoghil.7

Shepherd Icy Acorn wrote: »

Your roof/tiles obviously suit them. Swallows don't use roof spaces.

Put bird guards in the guttering if you are unhappy with them using the roof space. They are finding a way in, so block it.

Its the starlings not swallows trying to get into the attic. As mentioned, They have being trying for years which is why I do have guards up.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

Its the starlings not swallows trying to get into the attic. As mentioned, They have being trying for years which is why I do have guards up.

No, I meant (as you said swallows never use the house) the house suits starlings.
:rolleyes:
So you have guards in place. Problem solved.

OBaoghil.7

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I wasn't accusing you of it - merely trying to point out the absurdity of your argument.

I have Rooks nesting in my garden, and I have had Starlings nesting in my roof - as have both of my neighbours. Similarly both feed in my garden. So they both feed and breed in my garden -as they do in thousands of gardens across the country - hence why they're considered garden birds. Just because they're considered garden birds does not preclude them from being called Farmland Birds either - but given that they're generalists, rather than specialists, they probably fit more comfortably into the classification of garden birds.

It doesnt matter if 20 of them decided to nest in your kitchen - they are declining across Ireland and across Europe, and unless you find a previously undiscovered island in EU waters that has 1million+ breeding Starlings on it, then your personal dissatisfaction with that fact matters not.


You don't like Starlings nesting in your house - we get it! They are declining though, and they are garden birds too.

"your personal dissatisfaction with that fact matters not"! What a comment! I have raised a question to discuss. I can assure that there are many people throughout Europe that have strong negative views of Starlings due the damage and noise they create. As I have mentioned, I have lived in cities where these birds cause misery.
Globally these birds are not declining and even just as close to home as NI they are increasing. hey have declined in areas where the farm lands have been altered but they have just redistributed them selves. I refer you to Wikipedia/common starling (forum prevents my adding a link)
In my view they are no more a garden bird as the crow.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Please don't rely on Wikipedia for accurate information on wildlife.
Starling numbers across northern Europe have seen a marked decline: with reduced numbers every year since 1981. The survival rate for year one birds has dropped from 32% to 15% in that period.
You raised a discussion based on your own observations but seem to refuse to accept anything contrary to it in reply.

OBaoghil.7

Shepherd Icy Acorn wrote: »

Please don't rely on Wikipedia for accurate information on wildlife.
Starling numbers across northern Europe have seen a marked decline: with reduced numbers every year since 1981. The survival rate for year one birds has dropped from 32% to 15% in that period.
You raised a discussion based on your own observations but seem to refuse to accept anything contrary to it in reply.

That's amazing! I have questioned whether starlings are garden birds or not as find, as many others do that they are not. You obviously feel that I should just accept they are because you say so! I have still to find out what defines a garden bird. Not what birds have been seen in the garden. To suggest that Wikipedia is wrong is also amazing. They state that globally there is no decline. In Europe there is but some areas there has been increases such as NI. You say that this is wrong? In many countries starlings are regarded as pest. Is this wrong? I have not based my opinions on my own observations, although I am fortunate to have experienced their behaviour first hand in cities and towns. I have listened to people and I have read the unbiased details on Wikipedia. Starlings cause problems for society well beyond your garden.

OBaoghil.7

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

That's amazing! I have questioned whether starlings are garden birds or not as find, as many others do that they are not. You obviously feel that I should just accept they are because you say so! I have still to find out what defines a garden bird. Not what birds have been seen in the garden. To suggest that Wikipedia is wrong is also amazing. They state that globally there is no decline. In Europe there is but some areas there has been increases such as NI. You say that this is wrong? In many countries starlings are regarded as pest. Is this wrong? I have not based my opinions on my own observations, although I am fortunate to have experienced their behaviour first hand in cities and towns. I have listened to people and I have read the unbiased details on Wikipedia. Starlings cause problems for society well beyond your garden.

Should say there is decline in Europe.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Top 20 place in Birdwatch Ireland garden surveys. 12th place in BTO UK and Ireland garden surveys. Population status Ireland is stable but amber listed.
A garden bird in decline in it's natural range.

I'm off!

OpenYourEyes

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

"your personal dissatisfaction with that fact matters not"! What a comment! I have raised a question to discuss. I can assure that there are many people throughout Europe that have strong negative views of Starlings due the damage and noise they create. As I have mentioned, I have lived in cities where these birds cause misery.
Globally these birds are not declining and even just as close to home as NI they are increasing. hey have declined in areas where the farm lands have been altered but they have just redistributed them selves. I refer you to Wikipedia/common starling (forum prevents my adding a link)
In my view they are no more a garden bird as the crow.

It's less of a discussion, and more of you refuting any kind of facts or logic on the matter.

There are many people who have negative views of Starlings - most aren't that strong though, just annoyed when they try and nest on parts of their house. It seems probable that as many if not more people enjoy seeing them on a regular basis, not to mention the hugely impressive displays they put on throughout the winter. Videos of it have gone viral several years in a row.

"Cause misery" - hyperbole much?!

In their native range they're declining - thats significant and a cause for concern. You're again failing to draw a distinction between their native range and the other large areas they're invasive and problematic.

In my view, and in every eNGO groups view, they're no more a garden bird than the crow, robin, blue tit, house sparrow etc etc etc. They live and feed in gardens throughout the year, they are commonly found in gardens across the country - they tick all of the boxes to be a garden bird.

Cork boy 55

Define garden bird ?
Its not even a scientific term is it?
Define garden?
Just an expression

In my garden
In terms of quantity starlings are biggest number in garden outpacing sparrows by
3:1 I regularly see flocks 30 plus
Although the tend to appear sporadically and fleetly maybe not every day and
They don't linger very skittish

pawrick

I have starlings nesting again this year in both my shed and house. I see them in my garden foraging in the grass for food, I don't leave food out for them and I have few neighbors and none next to my home so there is no additional food source drawing them. Garden birds doing what i'd expect garden birds to do it seems to me.

BLUEMAN2010

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

Should say there is decline in Europe.

Every Starling should be shot on sight........ Rats with wings

ThunderCat

BLUEMAN2010 wrote: »

Every Starling should be shot on sight........ Rats with wings

Did it take you all these years to learn how to spell that sentence?

OpenYourEyes

BLUEMAN2010 wrote: »

Every Starling should be shot on sight........ Rats with wings

Mod Note: Banned.