Visa Application

loubian

Hi, can anyone tell me why a copy of the irish born child's passport is needed for a visa application for a non European national? thanks

athtrasna

Parents (of Irish born children) who do not have automatic entry rights are required to prove that they do in fact have children who are Irish citizens. Not sure why it seems strange to you?

loubian

I was just wondering why the birth cert couldn't be used instead. I don't find it strange, just inquiring.

athtrasna

AFAIK a birth cert doesn't establish/confirm citizenship where parents are non-Irish citizens. It's a register of the birth. Granting of a passport identifies an Irish citizen.

Pro Hoc Vice

loubian wrote: »

I was just wondering why the birth cert couldn't be used instead. I don't find it strange, just inquiring.

A birth cert is not proof of Irish Citizenship. A Irish born child is not always an Irish Citizen child.

Dandelion6

Depends on how old the child is. Pre-2005 an Irish birth cert is proof of Irish citizenship (there are really really limited exceptions such as the children of diplomats but these are so rare as to be pretty much ignored in practice). When making an application for a spouse of an Irish citizen INIS will sometimes accept an Irish birth certificate + driver's licence in lieu of a passport.

What I find irritating is that INIS insists on a baby's passport even when you submit their birth certificate and one parent's Irish passport. That is sufficient to establish Irish citizenship, but it's not enough for INIS.

Carawaystick

Dandelion6 wrote: »

What I find irritating is that INIS insists on a baby's passport even when you submit their birth certificate and one parent's Irish passport. That is sufficient to establish Irish citizenship, but it's not enough for INIS.

The DFA requires a child's birth cert as well as their passport to issue a new passport.

Victor

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Depends on how old the child is. Pre-2005 an Irish birth cert is proof of Irish citizenship (there are really really limited exceptions such as the children of diplomats but these are so rare as to be pretty much ignored in practice).

Not necessarily. Some countries prohibit dual citizenship: http://www.immihelp.com/citizenship/dual-citizenship-recognize-countries.html (this information seems to be specific to the USA, but will be indicative for Ireland) https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship (UK) and http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/04/25/countries-allow-dual-citizenship/ (general)

There could be thousands of people who were born in Ireland pre-2005 who aren't citizens, although some might be entitled to citizenship.

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

Not necessarily. Some countries prohibit dual citizenship: http://www.immihelp.com/citizenship/dual-citizenship-recognize-countries.html (this information seems to be specific to the USA, but will be indicative for Ireland) https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship (UK) and http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/04/25/countries-allow-dual-citizenship/ (general)

There could be thousands of people who were born in Ireland pre-2005 who aren't citizens, although some might be entitled to citizenship.

Other countries' laws about, and attitudes to, dual citizenship are not relevant in this context. The Irish law dealing with citizenship by birth in Ireland doesn't contain any exclusions or carve-outs for people who hold citizenship of another country whose laws forbid dual citizenship. Basically, if you are born in Ireland after 2005 and at least one of your parents is (a) an Irish citizen, or (b) a UK citizen, or (c) a person entitled to live in Ireland without a restriction on their residency, or (d) a person who has been granted refugee status, then you are an Irish citizen. It does not matter whether you also hold another citizenship, or whether the country in which you hold another citizenship forbids dual citizenship.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

Basically, if you are born in Ireland after 2005 ... then you are an Irish citizen.

No, I don't think so. Not least the children of diplomatic staff, but people are entitled to renounce Irish citizenship. They still have the right to Irish citizenship, but they aren't Irish citizens.

Pro Hoc Vice

Victor wrote: »

Not necessarily. Some countries prohibit dual citizenship: http://www.immihelp.com/citizenship/dual-citizenship-recognize-countries.html (this information seems to be specific to the USA, but will be indicative for Ireland) https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship (UK) and http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/04/25/countries-allow-dual-citizenship/ (general)

There could be thousands of people who were born in Ireland pre-2005 who aren't citizens, although some might be entitled to citizenship.

Any person born pre 2005 is entitled to Irish Citizenship if born here. The USA is not a good example as the Suprem Court in the USA has a number of rulings on that issue and dual citizenship is allowed in certain circumstances.

If a child is born in Ireland who entitled under Irish law to citizenship as well as being entitled in another country that does not allow dual citizenship, that child is simply entitled to claim and in fact is under Irish law a citizen of Ireland.

Pro Hoc Vice

Victor wrote: »

No, I don't think so. Not least the children of diplomatic staff, but people are entitled to renounce Irish citizenship. They still have the right to Irish citizenship, but they aren't Irish citizens.

That hurts my head I do not understand it. But in relation to renouncing Irish citizenship only an adult can do so not a child. It's simple under Irish law a person is either a citizen at birth or not.

Victor

So, a child is born (prematurely) in Ireland in 1990, while his parents are on holiday in Ireland. Parents and child leave Ireland once the doctors say that it is safe to do so. The parent's home country prohibits dual nationality.

The child grows up with that other nationality and in no way considers themselves Irish. He only has one passport.

Now, age 25, the child gets arrested while on holiday in Ireland. In processing the arrestee, it comes out that the arrestee was born in Ireland.

You are the supervising Garda sergeant. Do you contact the arrestee's embassy to get them to provide consular advice?

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

So, a child is born (prematurely) in Ireland in 1990, while his parents are on holiday in Ireland. Parents and child leave Ireland once the doctors say that it is safe to do so. The parent's home country prohibits dual nationality.

The child grows up with that other nationality and in no way considers themselves Irish. He only has one passport.

Now, age 25, the child gets arrested while on holiday in Ireland. In processing the arrestee, it comes out that the arrestee was born in Ireland.

You are the supervising Garda sergeant. Do you contact the arrestee's embassy to get them to provide consular advice?

First point: Whatever the answer, the fact that the parents' home country prohibits dual nationality is irrelevant. It will not affect the sergeant's decision one way or the other.

Second point: Formally, if you are an Irish citizen the position of the Irish authorities is that any other citizenship you may possess is irrelevant, and if you're arrested they don't accept that they have any obligation to allow you access to the consular services of the country of your other citizenship. Most countries take the same view. In practice, however, if a dual national asks for consular access they will usually get it (if the country of second citizenship is willing to extend it, of course). And I would think that in the circumstances you outline the dual national would certainly be given consular access.

However, maybe we need to unpack your statement that "the parents' home country forbids dual nationality" a bit. When we say that country A forbids dual nationality, what we usually mean is that country A has a citizenship law which provides that, if you voluntarily acquire the nationality of another country, you cease to be a citizen of country A. They don't usually say that, if you are born with the nationality of another country, then you can't be a citizen of country A. Given a law like this, the individual you mention would be a citizen of Ireland (by birth) and a citizen of the other country (by descent), and the other country would be fine with this.

If they have an unusually strict ban on dual citizenship and are not fine with this, then the position must be that the individual is a citizen of Ireland, but not a citizen of the other country. Clearly, the laws of the other country can regulate who gets citizenship of the other country, but they can't regulate who gets citizenship of Ireland, so they only way they can prevent dual nationality is by withdrawing their own citizenship. So in that circumstance the country concerned will presumably not afford consular assistance to the individual; he is not one of their citizens.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

Second point: Formally, if you are an Irish citizen the position of the Irish authorities is that any other citizenship you may possess is irrelevant, and if you're arrested they don't accept that they have any obligation to allow you access to the consular services of the country of your other citizenship. Most countries take the same view.

And that will end up in the courts for a very long time.

In practice, however, if a dual national asks for consular access

Consular access is a right that people have, not something they should have to access.

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

And that will end up in the courts for a very long time.

Actually, I don't think it will, for two reasons. First, in practice, most states do allow consular access to dual nationals. Why wouldn't they? It costs nothing, avoids a row and rarely has any impact on the eventual outcome of the arrest, charge or trial. So, while denying that they are obliged to do this, states do in practice do this voluntarily, and the issue never comes to court.

And, secondly, if it did come to court, while I can't find a cite for this, I think courts have in the past held that dual citizens don't have any special rights, if arrested or charged - it would violate the constitutional guarantee of equality before the law for citizens.

Victor wrote: »

Consular access is a right that people have, not something they should have to access.

Well, in practice, of course, they usually have to ask for it. How is a custody sergeant to know that somebody taken into custody is a foreign national, unless they tell him?

And, as a matter of legal theory, consular access is not a right of the arrested person at all; it's a right of the sending state, exercised through consular staff. The right is set out in the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, art. 36. And what that asserts is the right of a consular officer, "if he so requests", to be told by the authorities of the receiving state of the arrest of nationals of the sending state. The consular officer also has a right to have communications forwarded to his nationals in custody, to arrange legal representation for them, and of to visit them. No rights at all are conferred on the individual citizen. So, if as a citizen of Umbrellastan arrested by the Irish authorities you demand to see the Umbrellastani consul, and the Umbrellastani consul finds that he has better things to do, I'm afraid you're cactus.

As you know, there are large numbers of dual British-Irish nationals in Ireland. The British consular section is not normally notified of the arrest of a dual national - they haven't asked to be, and most such arrests are of no interest to them. If an arrested dual national asked to have the British consular staff notified, I expect this would be done, but I can't imagine that the consul will drop everything and rush to FitzGibbon Street barracks, or wherever, to offer solace and legal assistance. There would need to be some unusual factor at play before they would take much interest.

Pro Hoc Vice

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, I don't think it will, for two reasons. First, in practice, most states do allow consular access to dual nationals. Why wouldn't they? It costs nothing, avoids a row and rarely has any impact on the eventual outcome of the arrest, charge or trial. So, while denying that they are obliged to do this, states do in practice do this voluntarily, and the issue never comes to court.

And, secondly, if it did come to court, while I can't find a cite for this, I think courts have in the past held that dual citizens don't have any special rights, if arrested or charged - it would violate the constitutional guarantee of equality before the law for citizens.


Well, in practice, of course, they usually have to ask for it. How is a custody sergeant to know that somebody taken into custody is a foreign national, unless they tell him?

And, as a matter of legal theory, consular access is not a right of the arrested person at all; it's a right of the sending state, exercised through consular staff. The right is set out in the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, art. 36. And what that asserts is the right of a consular officer, "if he so requests", to be told by the authorities of the receiving state of the arrest of nationals of the sending state. The consular officer also has a right to have communications forwarded to his nationals in custody, to arrange legal representation for them, and of to visit them. No rights at all are conferred on the individual citizen. So, if as a citizen of Umbrellastan arrested by the Irish authorities you demand to see the Umbrellastani consul, and the Umbrellastani consul finds that he has better things to do, I'm afraid you're cactus.

As you know, there are large numbers of dual British-Irish nationals in Ireland. The British consular section is not normally notified of the arrest of a dual national - they haven't asked to be, and most such arrests are of no interest to them. If an arrested dual national asked to have the British consular staff notified, I expect this would be done, but I can't imagine that the consul will drop everything and rush to FitzGibbon Street barracks, or wherever, to offer solace and legal assistance. There would need to be some unusual factor at play before they would take much interest.

When handed the form with your rights one of the included rights is for your embassy to be informed of your arrest and detention.

Peregrinus

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

When handed the form with your rights one of the included rights is for your embassy to be informed of your arrest and detention.

Well, cool. So the policy in Ireland is that to afford the right of consular access to every foreign national, and to inform all prisoners that, if they are foreign nationals, they have this right.

Still, if Ireland did not have this policy, they would not be in breach of the Vienna Convention. Under the Convention, the only obligation is to afford consular staff rights of access to prisoners, not the other way around.

None of this, though, directly addresses the question; what about dual nationals? But if Ireland is giving this information to all prisoners, then presumably if a dual national wanted his embassy to be informed of his arrest, that would be done.

(PS: I see from this document that if a UK dual national is arrested in the country of his second nationality, the UK normally doesn't provide any consular support unless "having looked at the circumstances of the case, we consider that you are particularly vulnerable" - e.g. you're a child, or you are facing the death penalty. And, even then, "the help we can provide will depend on . . . the country of your other nationality agreeing to it". In other words, the UK's position that when a dual national is arrested in once of his countries of nationality, that country is not obliged to allow him to access consular assistance from his other country of nationality.)

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Lt J.R. Bell

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Depends on how old the child is. Pre-2005 an Irish birth cert is proof of Irish citizenship (there are really really limited exceptions such as the children of diplomats but these are so rare as to be pretty much ignored in practice). When making an application for a spouse of an Irish citizen INIS will sometimes accept an Irish birth certificate + driver's licence in lieu of a passport.

What I find irritating is that INIS insists on a baby's passport even when you submit their birth certificate and one parent's Irish passport. That is sufficient to establish Irish citizenship, but it's not enough for INIS.

Photo id (passport) for child to confirm the child is that child stated on the birth certificate ?

Lt J.R. Bell

Victor wrote: »

So, a child is born (prematurely) in Ireland in 1990, while his parents are on holiday in Ireland.

Yes. Pre 2005 rules, yes. Legislation was crystal clear, as was the Constitution. Simply being born in Ireland = Right to be an Irish Citizen as of birth.

Now, as for the parents right to residency,a different issue, well, look at the cases of Fajunonu 1990, Lobe 2003, Dimbo 2008 and lated the ECJ case of Zambrano

Victor wrote: »

Parents and child leave Ireland once the doctors say that it is safe to do so. The parent's home country prohibits dual nationality.

Eg China. We are still not stopping the Child from obtaining Irish Passport.

Victor wrote: »

The child grows up with that other nationality and in no way considers themselves Irish. He only has one passport.

Pre 2005

By law, if anyone gives him crap, he is legally Irish, and entitled to be treated no differently. Still entitled to pick up his Irish passport

Victor wrote: »

Now, age 25, the child gets arrested while on holiday in Ireland. In processing the arrestee, it comes out that the arrestee was born in Ireland./QUOTE]

Go and apply for a passport .boom

Victor wrote: »

You are the supervising Garda sergeant. Do you contact the arrestee's embassy to get them to provide consular advice?

Nope, I get proof of the man's claim, tell him to apply for Irish passport, it's up to him (Immigration Act 2003) to satisfy to me that he has documentation and proof of who he is. Knowing he was born in Ireland before 2005, I have to be prepared to treat him as an Irish person, even if the arrestee has only developed a new found sense of Irishness

Luckily the rules have changed.

Lt J.R. Bell

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yep, before 2005, he could get an Irish Passport "island of Ireland", and still can if he meets Section 6 (in full) of the ICN Acts

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Lt J.R. Bell

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They get asked to do something that only Irish people can do, possess an Irish passport.

You will be entitled to an Irish passport, no questions asked, if you can show that you were born on the island of Ireland and thus an Irish Citizen , or your parent/grandparents were born on the Island of Ireland.

Simple. Boom.

Peregrinus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Pre 2005 there was only two cases; either you were an Irish citizen or you were not. If you were an Irish citizen, you might either have obtained that status voluntarily - i.e. applied for naturalisation - or simply had it conferred upon you by law, without you seeking it and quite possibly without you knowing it. The latter was far more common; the great bulk of Irish citizens were citizens either by birth (in Ireland) or by descent (from Irish parents/grandparents). They didn't have to "assert" anything to become citizens; their citizenship arose out of the circumstances of their birth/descent.

And this would be the same for most countries. The exact circumstances that would give rise to citizenship would vary from country to country, but some combination of birth in the country/descent from citizens would may you a citizen without having to "assert" anything. Citizenship is normally a status assigned, if not against your will, then at least without your will.

Since 1998 Ireland, unusually, has a third group. There are citizens, non-citizens and those "entitled" to citizenship. Under Art. 2 of the Constititution, as amended following the Belfast agreement, Irish citizenship is "the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland". This is then fleshed out by the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts, which make some people citizens automatically, and others citizens only if and when they assert their citizenship by doing something that only a citizen can do - e.g. voting when not otherwise entitled, applying for a passport. This group of those "entitled" to citizenship is mostly made up of (a) those born in Ireland to non-citizen parents, and (b) those born outside Ireland to Irish citizen parents who were themselves born outside Ireland.

234

I presume that those born in the North who have never voted, applied for a passport, etc. are entitled rather than citizens (assuming birth pre-2005). So can they just assert the right at any time (by voting, applying for a passport) and the citizenship crystallises or do they need to apply?

Peregrinus

234 wrote: »

I presume that those born in the North who have never voted, applied for a passport, etc. are entitled rather than citizens (assuming birth pre-2005). So can they just assert the right at any time (by voting, applying for a passport) and the citizenship crystallises or do they need to apply?

Almost everyone born in NI has at least one parent who is an Irish citizen born in Ireland, so they are Irish citizens from birth. If you are born in NI after 2005, and neither of your parents are Irish citizens, then you are not automatically an Irish citizen, but if (at least) one of your parents is a UK citizen then you are entitled to be an Irish citizen.

234

Peregrinus wrote: »

Almost everyone born in NI has at least one parent who is an Irish citizen born in Ireland, so they are Irish citizens from birth. If you are born in NI after 2005, and neither of your parents are Irish citizens, then you are not automatically an Irish citizen, but if (at least) one of your parents is a UK citizen then you are entitled to be an Irish citizen.

And can you simply assert the entitlement by applying for a passport or do you need to apply for citizenship?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Victor

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Victor wrote: »

Now, age 25, the child gets arrested while on holiday in Ireland. In processing the arrestee, it comes out that the arrestee was born in Ireland.

Go and apply for a passport .boom

Nope, I get proof of the man's claim, tell him to apply for Irish passport, it's up to him (Immigration Act 2003) to satisfy to me that he has documentation and proof of who he is. Knowing he was born in Ireland before 2005, I have to be prepared to treat him as an Irish person, even if the arrestee has only developed a new found sense of Irishness

Luckily the rules have changed.

My point is the arrestee doesn't want or even know they are entitled to Irish citizenship. The other posters are saying it is forced upon him.

Lt J.R. Bell

Victor wrote: »

My point is the arrestee doesn't want or even know they are entitled to Irish citizenship. The other posters are saying it is forced upon him.

Who is saying that it's forced upon them? I thought moderators are above putting words in other people's mouths?

What the poster is saying, legally, if you discover a new found sense of Irishness all of a sudden, regardless of motive, Irish law says the law does recognise you as a citizen if you do something about it, ie get a passport. Irish law will be only too happy to accept, respect and acknowledge you as a citizen exclusively of another country, but, if you come to them, they will hand you a passport

No one is being forced.

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

My point is the arrestee doesn't want or even know they are entitled to Irish citizenship. The other posters are saying it is forced upon him.

Only in the sense that citizenship is "forced" on anyone who gets it automatically, which of coufse is the great majority of us. I got my Australian citizenship by applying to be naturalised, but my Irish citizenship was "forced" on me. And then, to add insult to injury, because I was forced to be an Irish citizen the right to freedom of movement and freedom of establishment throughout the EU was fprced upon me. And, every time a new member state joins, they force an extension of this right on me.

Should I be upset about this? Because, you know, I'm not.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

Only in the sense that citizenship is "forced" on anyone who gets it automatically, which of coufse is the great majority of us. I got my Australian citizenship by applying to be naturalised, but my Irish citizenship was "forced" on me. And then, to add insult to injury, because I was forced to be an Irish citizen the right to freedom of movement and freedom of establishment throughout the EU was fprced upon me. And, every time a new member state joins, they force an extension of this right on me.

Should I be upset about this? Because, you know, I'm not.

Wait until there is a war and you get drafted by a country that decides you are a citizen based on an accident of birth.

234

Victor wrote: »

Wait until there is a war and you get drafted by a country that decides you are a citizen based on an accident of birth.

Remind me, when was the last time that Ireland had conscription?

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

Wait until there is a war and you get drafted by a country that decides you are a citizen based on an accident of birth.

I think most people's analysis of that scenario is that the imposition is not the citizenship, but the conscription!

Lt J.R. Bell

Peregrinus wrote: »

Only in the sense that citizenship is "forced" on anyone who gets it automatically, which of coufse is the great majority of us. I got my Australian citizenship by applying to be naturalised, but my Irish citizenship was "forced" on me. And then, to add insult to injury, because I was forced to be an Irish citizen the right to freedom of movement and freedom of establishment throughout the EU was fprced upon me. And, every time a new member state joins, they force an extension of this right on me.

Should I be upset about this? Because, you know, I'm not.

The travesty, the travesty

Don't forget, your EU citizenship was also forced on you.

Lt J.R. Bell

Victor wrote: »

Wait until there is a war and you get drafted by a country that decides you are a citizen based on an accident of birth.

If you have dual nationality because you naturalised, you are also a candidate for the draft! Never stopped America years ago.... civil war, world war... Vietnam, they were happy to take up non American born Americans (okay, no draft for Vietnam bUT there was a pressure to join)

Lt J.R. Bell

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think most people's analysis of that scenario is that the imposition is not the citizenship, but the conscription!

We are talking about Ireland, Irish citizenship.Not other countries. Your fears are not relevant here.

Dandelion6

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The USA is not a good example as the Suprem Court in the USA has a number of rulings on that issue and dual citizenship is allowed in certain circumstances.

Those circumstances being, essentially, that the person intends to retain their US citizenship while also holding the citizenship of another country. You would pretty much have to commit treason against the US while serving in a policy-level position in the other country's government before the US would decide you were not allowed to be a dual citizen.

Regarding consular access, I concur with Peregrinus. Prisoners are entitled to request it, but if the embassy/consulate declines to provide it, and they sometimes do, there's f-all the prisoner can do about it.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

but I can't imagine that the consul will drop everything and rush to FitzGibbon Street barracks

Consul is a particular rank. It need not be someone of that rank.

Peregrinus wrote: »

but I can't imagine that the consul will drop everything and rush to FitzGibbon Street barracks

Not least because it is closed.

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Regarding consular access, I concur with Peregrinus. Prisoners are entitled to request it, but if the embassy/consulate declines to provide it, and they sometimes do, there's f-all the prisoner can do about it.

The sergeant in the station has no say in this - the arrestee is entitled to consular support and it isn't for the sergeant to deny it solely on the basis of where the person was.

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

If you have dual nationality because you naturalised, you are also a candidate for the draft!

Nobody is discussing naturalisation, so I'm not sure why it is being raised.

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

okay, no draft for Vietnam bUT there was a pressure to join

Um ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_lottery_%281969%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States