Struggling to find a program while at a deficit

UnknownSpecies

So I've been struggling to find a program that I can maintain and enjoy while eating at a deficit.

I'm 6'0" 24 M, coming from 128kg, currently sitting at around 98kg. Main goal is to continue to trim the bf% but it's getting tougher the lower I go. I'm eating 1800-2100 cals per day, depending on whether I'm training or not.

I've come up with the following program which intend to do 4 times in 10 days. I find that any more than that will leave me wrecked, unable to train and likely to binge.

Any thoughts, advice or improvements would be great.

Chest/Biceps
- Bench - 3x5
- Incline Bench - 3x8
- DB Flies - 3x10
- EZ Curl - 3x10
- Hammer Curls - 3x10

Back/Shoulders
- Deadlifts - 3x5
- Seated Cable Rows - 3x8
- Close Grip Pulldowns - 3x10
- DB Shoulder Press - 3x8
- Lateral Raises - 3x8

Legs/Triceps
- Squat - 3x5
- Stiff Leg Deadlifts - 3x5
- Close Grip Bench Press - 3x8
- Tricep Cable Pushdowns - 3x12

Core work to be done 1-2 times per week
- Russian Twists - 3x15
+ superset Planks

MightyMandarin

Why measure across 10 days? 3x a week might be a better way to track yourself.

Any decent program can work on a deficit, and you can gain strength and lose weight at the same time, you just won't make as much strength gains on a deficit.

Your split isn't really the best either. Chest+Tri's, Back + Bi's and Legs+Shoulders is usually better as the muscle groups go well together. Do you do any cardio? It might be a good idea to add some if your goal is weight loss.

UnknownSpecies

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Why measure across 10 days? 3x a week might be a better way to track yourself.

Any decent program can work on a deficit, and you can gain strength and lose weight at the same time, you just won't make as much strength gains on a deficit.

Your split isn't really the best either. Chest+Tri's, Back + Bi's and Legs+Shoulders is usually better as the muscle groups go well together. Do you do any cardio? It might be a good idea to add some if your goal is weight loss.

Thanks for the insight. I do 4 sessions in 10 days because it allows me to be more flexible with my rest days. If I feel I need an extra day, I can take it and adjust accordingly. Saw that suggested elsewhere online. Not saying it's totally correct but that's the rationale behind it.

I'll look into my split too as you suggest. The only reason I had it like I did was because my tris tend to tire out quickly when done with chest. Do you think I'm missing any exercises or are the ones listed ok? I try to do one 'power' oriented exercise per body part with another 1-2 accessories with higher reps. Obviously I'm adding weight to the bar each day.

At the moment, I run 2k in around 10mins before every session as a warmup. To be honest, I bloody hate distance running. I just find it boring so 2k is as much as I can tolerate. I'll probably be doing some tag rugby soon enough too so that'll help.

Any opinions on carb intake? I've often gone low carb for long periods but my training suffers hugely. I'm eating regular amounts of carbs. I'm thinking of reducing this to around 120-150g per day and mainly before training.

Alf Veedersane

Your legs are being shortchanged. Squats, SLDLs and DLs are the only leg related exercises.

At a very minimum I'd get something in on leg day that's a bit more quad focussed.

UnknownSpecies

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Your legs are being shortchanged. Squats, SLDLs and DLs are the only leg related exercises.

At a very minimum I'd get something in on leg day that's a bit more quad focussed.

Yeah, I was going to add leg press for quads and I think I will now. Maybe I'm too worried about burning out.

MightyMandarin

dorgasm wrote: »

Thanks for the insight. I do 4 sessions in 10 days because it allows me to be more flexible with my rest days. If I feel I need an extra day, I can take it and adjust accordingly. Saw that suggested elsewhere online. Not saying it's totally correct but that's the rationale behind it.

I'll look into my split too as you suggest. The only reason I had it like I did was because my tris tend to tire out quickly when done with chest. Do you think I'm missing any exercises or are the ones listed ok? I try to do one 'power' oriented exercise per body part with another 1-2 accessories with higher reps. Obviously I'm adding weight to the bar each day.

At the moment, I run 2k in around 10mins before every session as a warmup. To be honest, I bloody hate distance running. I just find it boring so 2k is as much as I can tolerate. I'll probably be doing some tag rugby soon enough too so that'll help.

Any opinions on carb intake? I've often gone low carb for long periods but my training suffers hugely. I'm eating regular amounts of carbs. I'm thinking of reducing this to around 120-150g per day and mainly before training.

If I were you, I'd probably increase the frequency, but if you feel wrecked when training more than you are, then leave it as it is I guess.

Triceps being tired after chest isn't a problem. If you just lower the weight, you can still hit them hard and tear up more muscle fibres, which is what you want. I'd just swap the triceps exercises in, and do more sets. At the moment you're doing 15sets each workout; I'd probably do more as you'll reap the rewards. If you struggle for more, just lower the weight and get as much volume in as possible.

I'd also leave the cardio till after as it's usually better to do cardio after weights.

150g of carbs is quite low, and your training will most definitely suffer if you sustain that level. Some people like carb cycling etc. but I just prefer to keep 500cals below my TDEE and keep protein high; I don't really care if the remainder after protein calories comes from fats or carbs, but I always like to have some oats in the morning, and my dinner right before I train, but different things work for different people I guess. If you're feeling rough going low-carb, then up the levels. There's no need to feel drained on a cut, and while the first few weeks were hard tranisitioning from my bulk, I feel fine now and I'm slowly losing weight. I'd say bring them up to 200g, try it for a week and see how your training is going. If you still feel bad, bring it up to 250g, if you're struggling to lose weight, lower them a little. Just find out what works for you.

El Horseboxo

When I'm looking to drop fat my training program doesn't change too much. I mostly drop the accessory exercises and focus on the compounds. Olympic lifts, Thrusters, pull ups, box jumps, battling ropes, Prowler all become more prominent. Still trying to push the weight and staying in the 3-6 rep range. Always focusing on maintaining the form of the movement while increasing weight rather than going for higher reps. HIIT, hill sprints and some plyonetric work gets added too. Everything with high intensity and short rest periods.

My training program usually consists of the above anyways. For the most part. I leave the fat loss to what goes into my mouth.

This works for me. I have the freedom at set my own workouts rather than sticking to a set routine. Maybe try adopting something similar.

Mellor

I'm a bit unsure what exactly you are doing. Is the core workout included in the 4 times in 10 days?
If not, then does one of the other 3 repeat every 10 days,
1,2,3,1
2,3,1,2
3,1,2,3
In which case it's 4 rounds a month, which is barely different than 3 times were week (28 vrs 30 days).


Your frequency isn't too important though, its a few times per week, the exact rate doesn't matter.
But instead of trying to write your own program you'd be better off using a tried and tested program.
As the above is very upper body dominate, and within upper body there's a pressing bias, and even a bias withing pressing itself. You don't need 3 bench press variations. More legs, more pulling.

UnknownSpecies

Mellor wrote: »

I'm a bit unsure what exactly you are doing. Is the core workout included in the 4 times in 10 days?
If not, then does one of the other 3 repeat every 10 days,
1,2,3,1
2,3,1,2
3,1,2,3
In which case it's 4 rounds a month, which is barely different than 3 times were week (28 vrs 30 days).


Your frequency isn't too important though, its a few times per week, the exact rate doesn't matter.
But instead of trying to write your own program you'd be better off using a tried and tested program.
As the above is very upper body dominate, and within upper body there's a pressing bias, and even a bias withing pressing itself. You don't need 3 bench press variations. More legs, more pulling.

I'm going to go back to 3 in 7 because I just remembered... My frequency was 4 in 10 because I was doing a 4 day program. Brain fart.

The upper body bias is there on purpose. Upper body lags severely behind lower body. I've followed greyskull LP most of my training and I always start to stall on the compound exercises quickly. Since I'm cutting, I didn't think a purely strength oriented program was what I needed so I want to move onto something with more accessories. To show my imbalance, these are my 3x5 numbers currently:

Bench: 60kg
Military Press: 45kg
Deadlift: 150kg
SLDL: 120kg
Squat: 110kg (has been as high as 130kg)

I'll happily take advice on how I can bring my upper body in line with my lower and any programs you'd recommend too.

Cheers everyone for the comments.

UnknownSpecies

El Horseboxo wrote: »

When I'm looking to drop fat my training program doesn't change too much. I mostly drop the accessory exercises and focus on the compounds. Olympic lifts, Thrusters, pull ups, box jumps, battling ropes, Prowler all become more prominent. Still trying to push the weight and staying in the 3-6 rep range. Always focusing on maintaining the form of the movement while increasing weight rather than going for higher reps. HIIT, hill sprints and some plyonetric work gets added too. Everything with high intensity and short rest periods.

My training program usually consists of the above anyways. For the most part. I leave the fat loss to what goes into my mouth.

This works for me. I have the freedom at set my own workouts rather than sticking to a set routine. Maybe try adopting something similar.

I like the sound of what you're doing. Any chance you could run through your program? What plyometric stuff do you do? I'm considering adding in HIIT, but only on a stationary bike. Not sure there's any place for sprints near to me.

I've got no advice whatsoever, but bloody hell that's some weightloss. Well done

UnknownSpecies

Deleted User wrote: »

I've got no advice whatsoever, but bloody hell that's some weightloss. Well done

Thanks! Took the bones of 3 years. There's been a good couple of break periods throughout too, for my sanity

Mellor

dorgasm wrote: »

The upper body bias is there on purpose. Upper body lags severely behind lower body.

I'll happily take advice on how I can bring my upper body in line with my lower and any programs you'd recommend too.

That's fair enough with the upper v lower bias. But there's still a lot more pushing than pulling. It might seem counter intuitive but, I found that working on my back really helped my pressing.

UnknownSpecies

Mellor wrote: »

That's fair enough with the upper v lower bias. But there's still a lot more pushing than pulling. It might seem counter intuitive but, I found that working on my back really helped my pressing.

Really? Interesting, I'd like to hear more about how you train your back. I can't do proper pulls/chins yet so I've been doing seated cable rows, lat pulldowns and close grip pulldowns too for my back. I'll look into giving the push/pull a better balance and post back here, thanks.

Alf Veedersane

You could probably do with a bit more work on the triceps as well to bring up your benching. Cable pushdowns are good to a point but domething like dips might be a better option.

UnknownSpecies

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You could probably do with a bit more work on the triceps as well to bring up your benching. Cable pushdowns are good to a point but domething like dips might be a better option.

Dips are like chins/pulls for me. Still can't do them effectively at my current weight. Would I be better off struggling through dips until I can do them or doing something like skullcrushers or CG bench instead in your opinion?

El Horseboxo

dorgasm wrote: »

I like the sound of what you're doing. Any chance you could run through your program? What plyometric stuff do you do? I'm considering adding in HIIT, but only on a stationary bike. Not sure there's any place for sprints near to me.

I train 6 days a week. I've been doing this for years so my body is well used to it. But if yours is not maybe more rest days would be beneficial. Anyways I usually start the day with a compound lift. So would be bench press, cleans, jerks, deadlifts, military press, squats, Thrusters. I basically pick one a day and use that as my main focus. Then the rest is made up of burpees, Dips, pull ups, battling ropes, Prowler sprints, Prowler pulls, heavy Prowler walks. Obviously not all each day. Like today for example will be bench press followed by Burpees/weighted Dips superset, battling ropes <usually 6 movements for 10 seconds each at high intensity for about 5 or 6 sets. Minimum rest in between>. Then Prowler sprints <60 kgs for 40 yards about 5 or 6 sets. Again minimum rest in between sets>. I'll probably finish with 5 mins of HIIT. 20 seconds all out, 10 seconds off. I throw in a work where ever. Mostly Rope crunches, planks or wipers.

For the plyometric work. It's mainly different variations of a box jump. Long jumps, one footed box jump, drop box jumps, squat box jumps, seated box jumps, floor to squats. If normally pick 3 types and do 3 sets of 20 for each. It's just something quick I can know out in 10 minutes. So usually a finisher.

MightyMandarin

dorgasm wrote: »

Dips are like chins/pulls for me. Still can't do them effectively at my current weight. Would I be better off struggling through dips until I can do them or doing something like skullcrushers or CG bench instead in your opinion?

Can you do assisted dips/chin ups in your gym? You could also try slow negatives which are probably the most important part of the movement anyway, and you'll get stronger over time with them too. Skullcrushers and CG bench are great exercises, but dips are better imo as it's more of a compound exercise than both.

Alf Veedersane

dorgasm wrote: »

Dips are like chins/pulls for me. Still can't do them effectively at my current weight. Would I be better off struggling through dips until I can do them or doing something like skullcrushers or CG bench instead in your opinion?

Skullcrushers, french presses or dumbbell tricep extensions. You could still do pushdowns as well but I would add something else in there like the three I mentioned.

Yer Aul One

Read this today, found it interesting to see some ballpark weights you would be expecting. I used it more for the ratio between the different exercises rather than the absolute weight values.

I.e. if I am happy that my squat is X, what does this think my bench should be at...

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.htm

Mellor

dorgasm wrote: »

Really? Interesting, I'd like to hear more about how you train your back. I can't do proper pulls/chins yet so I've been doing seated cable rows, lat pulldowns and close grip pulldowns too for my back. I'll look into giving the push/pull a better balance and post back here, thanks.

I try to keep a balance between push and pull. Also horizontal and vertical movements.
In practice this means 4 main upper body exercises.
Horizontal push (Bench press),
Horizontal pull (Barbel row or cable row)
Vertical push (Overhead press),
Vertical pull (pull up or lat pull down)

Then my assessory exercises.

UnknownSpecies

Thanks again for the opinions. I've rejigged my original program to reflect the advice I've gotten here as best as I can.

This is to be performed 3-4 times per week and I'll look to add in some plyometrics when I get into the swing of it as that sort of training interests me.

• Changed muscle pairings
• Added more pulling exercises (see back/bis day)
• Swapped in Skullcrushers for CG BP
• Added Dips as a compound for triceps in an effort to help my pressing movements
• Added more back exercises
• Added Leg Press for quads

Chest/Triceps
- Bench - 3x5
- Incline Bench - 3x8
- DB Flies - 3x10
- Dips - 3x5 (until I improve)
- Skullcrushers - 3x8
- Tricep Cable Pushdowns - 3x12

Back/Biceps
- Deadlifts - 3x5
- Seated Cable Rows - 3x8
- Close Grip Pulldowns - 3x10
- Lat Pulldowns - 3x10
- EZ Curl - 3x10
- Hammer Curls - 3x10

Legs/Shoulders
- Squat - 3x5
- Stiff Leg Deadlifts - 3x5
- Leg Press - 3x8
- DB Shoulder Press - 3x8
- Lateral Raises - 3x8

Core work to be done 1-2 times per week
- Russian Twists - 3x15
+ superset Planks

Let me know what ye think of the changes!

MightyMandarin

A little bit of rear delt work would be good just to prevent muscular imbalances. Maybe try some face pulls at the end of your shoulder work, just to get the 3 delts worked.

Alf Veedersane

MightyMandarin wrote: »

A little bit of rear delt work would be good just to prevent muscular imbalances. Maybe try some face pulls at the end of your shoulder work, just to get the 3 delts worked.

I was thinking that but you could argue the cable rows will help on that front. Not necessarily directly but they'ren ot being neglected.

MightyMandarin

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I was thinking that but you could argue the cable rows will help on that front. Not necessarily directly but they'ren ot being neglected.

Any sort of rowing movement will use them indirectly, but it's more as an injury-prevention really. I know a few people who never did them and had some rotator cuff pain, and after adding them in they noticed the pain went away after a few months.

It's just to maintain the anterior:posterior balance really, but if the OP doesn't have much time and never has rotator cuff issues, then he's fine.

vard

You're at a deficit and feeling drained... not sure why you'd even consider reducing carbs further. Eat more carbs, maintain a deficit. Glycogen is more important than ever when you're restricting your calorie intake.

UnknownSpecies

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Any sort of rowing movement will use them indirectly, but it's more as an injury-prevention really. I know a few people who never did them and had some rotator cuff pain, and after adding them in they noticed the pain went away after a few months.

It's just to maintain the anterior:posterior balance really, but if the OP doesn't have much time and never has rotator cuff issues, then he's fine.

Time isn't too much of an issue. Could do 2x12 lateral raises and 2x12 bent over lateral raises, so I'm hitting both sides.

vard wrote: »

You're at a deficit and feeling drained... not sure why you'd even consider reducing carbs further. Eat more carbs, maintain a deficit. Glycogen is more important than ever when you're restricting your calorie intake.

Yep I understand all too well how less carbs can hinder performance. I suppose I was thinking I could cut back and have just enough to fuel gym sessions. I find it too easy to overdo the carbs because they're everywhere.

Alf Veedersane

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Any sort of rowing movement will use them indirectly, but it's more as an injury-prevention really. I know a few people who never did them and had some rotator cuff pain, and after adding them in they noticed the pain went away after a few months.

It's just to maintain the anterior:posterior balance really, but if the OP doesn't have much time and never has rotator cuff issues, then he's fine.

I know what you mean. And I had rotator cuff issues and I did a lot of rows during a program that saw the issues disappear. Actual exercises given by physio weren't done nearly as often as I should have because time.

But if there's time to work in something a little more direct, then I wouldn't disagree.

Alf Veedersane

Running for ten minutes is not a warm up.

A few minutes rolling what needs to be rolled, some light stretching, activation drills for what you're gonna be doing...better off doing some of those things than hopping on a treadmill to warm up.

UnknownSpecies

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Nice one, will bear that in mind. My 2km treadmill was killing two birds with one stone (in my own mind anyway!!), bita cardio, bita warmup. I'll change this.

El Horseboxo

dorgasm wrote: »

Dips are like chins/pulls for me. Still can't do them effectively at my current weight. Would I be better off struggling through dips until I can do them or doing something like skullcrushers or CG bench instead in your opinion?

Do negatives. Only way to be able to do dips and pull ups is to do them. Even if only one rep and rest. You'll soon manage 2 reps. Don't rep through any pain though. If it's just a strength issue you'll overcome it with practice. For dips stand on the platform with arms extended and dip down slowly. Don't come back up. Then step off and repeat. Eventually try add the push up to starting position.

Same with pull ups. Grab bar and jump onto platform. Jump and pull yourself up using momentum. Then slowly lower yourself down. They this until it becomes easier and start attempting a full pull up. Even one at a time and step off after it.

UnknownSpecies

Thought I'd give an update on how I'm doing with this. I've done each session 3 times now so I've gotten a good feel for it. The only change I've made to the program in my last post is to add face pulls to my shoulder day and I'm glad I did. They've become one of my favourite exercises to do

I've given up my run at the start of each session and replaced it with static stretching and so far I feel it's helped. Not sure if this is directly due to the stretching or the fact I'm not as tired from the run, but I'm going to persist with it.

The only issue I've come across so far is how much the bigger lifts are effecting my accessories. I'm progressing nicely with the large lifts (DL, squat, bench, dips etc) but I am still struggling to increase the load on the rest of the lifts. For example, yesterday I increased the weight on my seated cable row and it was fine. But when I went to do CG pulldowns and Lat pulldowns afterwards, I couldn't do the same weight I did the previous week. I had to go down a weight to finish the sets. This also affected my bicep work. I wasn't able to finish the same weight of curls as last week. My biceps just died midway through the seconds set, whereas last week it was fine.

I'm not going to alter anything for now and I'll keep motoring on with it. Hopefully this is just a lull I'm going through.

UnknownSpecies

Just another update here from me, to let you know how all your advice has helped me. I posted this thread weighing 98kg. I've been consistent ever since and I now weigh 92.5kg. I've been eating relatively low carb so obviously some of that loss is water/glycogen, but I'm happy with the rate so far.

The program has been working great too. I've been making good upper body progress, especially with chest and triceps. My lifts 3x5 have improved as follows:

Bench 60kg --> 75kg
Deadlift 150kg --> 160kg
Squat 110kg --> 115kg

I want to give a special mention to dips, which have helped me massively. I started out doing sets of assisted dips, needing 3 plates on the machine to allow me finish 3 sets. I can now do all 3 sets at bodyweight unassisted

Thanks for the help again, I'm happy with the 3 month progress and intend to keep driving it on. I'll post back here with more updates if they're warranted (in case anyone is interested!).