Free Travel pass being checked in Heuston station

Demonique

A couple of weeks ago there were inspectors in between the trains and automated ticket gates checking tickets from people departing trains.

They were asking for ID from people with FTPs to catch out people travelling on FTPs that weren't theirs.

I heard an old person complaining to her companion about being asked for ID (which she had with her)

Heaven forbid that you be delayed by two minutes. The checks are there to catch people abusing the FTP out.

I am a FTP holder due to disability, I have no problem handing over my ID as I have no problem with the ticket inspectors trying to catch out people trying to bilk the system

People complaining about inspectors doing something that catches out fraudsters really gets my goat.

Cushie Butterfield

Great, so you came on here to complain about a person complaining to their friend a coup;e of weeks ago :eek:

Probably best to try to put the incident out of your mind.

BowWow

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

Great, so you came on here to complain about a person complaining to their friend a coup;e of weeks ago :eek:

Probably best to try to put the incident out of your mind.

Most unfair. OP has right to express their annoyance.

Cushie Butterfield

BowWow wrote: »

Most unfair. OP has right to express their annoyance.

What's unfair about advising the OP to try to put the incident out of their head? If the overheard private conversation between two people has been eating away at them for two weeks I'd consider it good advice.

The ''old person'' has a right to express their annoyance to their friend. Just because they're an ''old person'' doesn't mean that they can't be annoyed over something. The OP didn't have to mention the fact that their eavesdropping was of a conversation involving an ''old person'', but yet made a point of referring to it. That's what most unfair.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

What's unfair about advising the OP to try to put the incident out of their head? If the overheard private conversation between two people has been eating away at them for two weeks I'd consider it good advice.

The ''old person'' has a right to express their annoyance to their friend. Just because they're an ''old person'' doesn't mean that they can't be annoyed over something. The OP didn't have to mention the fact that their eavesdropping was of a conversation involving an ''old person'', but yet made a point of referring to it. That's what most unfair.

Wow, you seem to be annoyed by the OP's annoyance. Maybe you should put this out of your head.

Cushie Butterfield

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Wow, you seem to be annoyed by the OP's annoyance. Maybe you should put this out of your head.

I'm not annoyed - just giving some advice to the OP, before they lose any more sleep.

The point is not about what's in or out of my head - I'm not the one who had to resort to posting what is a personal issue on a transport thread.

monument

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

I'm not annoyed - just giving some advice to the OP, before they lose any more sleep.

The point is not about what's in or out of my head - I'm not the one who had to resort to posting what is a personal issue on a transport thread.

We'll leave it at that then. Any more discussion along these line from any side will be viewed as off-topic.

-- moderator

foggy_lad

Demonique wrote: »

A couple of weeks ago there were inspectors in between the trains and automated ticket gates checking tickets from people departing trains.

They were asking for ID from people with FTPs to catch out people travelling on FTPs that weren't theirs.

I heard an old person complaining to her companion about being asked for ID (which she had with her)

Heaven forbid that you be delayed by two minutes. The checks are there to catch people abusing the FTP out.

I am a FTP holder due to disability, I have no problem handing over my ID as I have no problem with the ticket inspectors trying to catch out people trying to bilk the system

People complaining about inspectors doing something that catches out fraudsters really gets my goat.

They are perfectly entitled to ask for some form of id but if they refuse someone travel or threaten to confiscate or actually do confiscate the pass they need much more proof of abuse than a person not having id to show them! If they form the opinion that a pass is being used fraudulently or confiscated the pass without good reason just because a person is unable to provide a form of id then they are leaving themselves and Irish rail open to being sued for defamation.

Free travel pass holders who are not obliged to possess the photo pass as part of their old paper pass are not obliged to provide any form of id apart from a sample of their signature. This sample can be from a credit/bank card or other id but it can just as easily be a sample written in front of the inspector.

Those with the photo pass are usually considered to have id but the photo pass is very easy to forge. The new credit card type free travel cards are already being abused by some people. I saw a young woman last week on kavanaghs bus using a card belonging to someone much older. She didn't show the card to the driver properly just went to her seat to fill out the paper slip that you need with the pps number and then just handed that to the driver.

Duiske

Demonique wrote: »

A couple of weeks ago there were inspectors in between the trains and automated ticket gates checking tickets from people departing trains.

They were asking for ID from people with FTPs to catch out people travelling on FTPs that weren't theirs.

I heard an old person complaining to her companion about being asked for ID (which she had with her)

Heaven forbid that you be delayed by two minutes. The checks are there to catch people abusing the FTP out.

I am a FTP holder due to disability, I have no problem handing over my ID as I have no problem with the ticket inspectors trying to catch out people trying to bilk the system

People complaining about inspectors doing something that catches out fraudsters really gets my goat.

Problem here is the inspectors actually had no entitlement to ask that lady for ID. Its been pointed out to Iarnroid Eireann previously that, under the rules of the Dept of Social Protection, their employees cannot ask for ID as a means of validating a persons entitlement to free travel unless the requirement for ID is specifically stated on their website. Its not.
Its a simple matter of Iarnroid Eireann adding a sentence to their website, but for some reason they seem either unable or unwilling to do that.

foggy_lad

Duiske wrote: »

Problem here is the inspectors actually had no entitlement to ask that lady for ID. Its been pointed out to Iarnroid Eireann previously that, under the rules of the Dept of Social Protection, their employees cannot ask for ID as a means of validating a persons entitlement to free travel unless the requirement for ID is specifically stated on their website. Its not.
Its a simple matter of Iarnroid Eireann adding a sentence to their website, but for some reason they seem either unable or unwilling to do that.

If they were to look for ID from travel pass holders they would be required to ask all passengers who are checked for ID or they could be accused of discrimination. What they need to do is change their conditions of carriage and the bye-laws to make producing ID mandatory, but it would have to be mandatory for everyone!

delahuntv

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Do-I-need-to-show-proof-of-my-identity.aspx

If travelling on a pass, id may be requested to prove your entitlement to use the pass.

some line on a website is not needed and would be utterly ridiculous.

The conditions for being provided with the ftp FULLY cover the request for id is asked.


You simply will always have some people moaning for the sake of moaning - you hear them when entering banks complaining about having to wait for one door to close before the second door can open. You hear them if someone is parked a little out of a space. You hear them in shops if there's someone ahead in a queue. Basically seasoned whiners.

I just ignore them

Peppa Pig

foggy_lad wrote: »

They are perfectly entitled to ask for some form of id

Outside of the city (with the non-photo passes) all the can ask for is your signature - it's detailed on the pass, fairly clearly.

It's pathetic that the credit card one has not been issued to everyone in the scheme. If they got their act together it could be done in a month.
There is no reason why they can't get everyone to go to their local SW office or health centre to get photo id. I even think you can give permission for your passport photo to be used, to save a trip.

Put a deadline on it and then state that three months (or whatever) from now the cardboard ones are not valid.

thomasj

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Outside of the city (with the non-photo passes) all the can ask for is your signature - it's detailed on the pass, fairly clearly.

It's pathetic that the credit card one has not been issued to everyone in the scheme. If they got their act together it could be done in a month.
There is no reason why they can't get everyone to go to their local SW office or health centre to get photo id. I even think you can give permission for your passport photo to be used, to save a trip.

Put a deadline on it and then state that three months (or whatever) from now the cardboard ones are not valid.

Here here!

I don't care what it takes, get the extra temporary staff and/or offer overtime if needed, its a one off shortterm project (It should be!)set a realistic deadline issue all of the cards and do a public awareness campaign highlighting the date that the cardboard box passes will no longer be accepted and do away with the bloody yokes.

The sooner we see the back of them the better!

foggy_lad

delahuntv wrote: »

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Do-I-need-to-show-proof-of-my-identity.aspx

If travelling on a pass, id may be requested to prove your entitlement to use the pass.

some line on a website is not needed and would be utterly ridiculous.

The conditions for being provided with the ftp FULLY cover the request for id is asked.


You simply will always have some people moaning for the sake of moaning - you hear them when entering banks complaining about having to wait for one door to close before the second door can open. You hear them if someone is parked a little out of a space. You hear them in shops if there's someone ahead in a queue. Basically seasoned whiners.

I just ignore them

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Do-I-need-to-show-proof-of-my-identity.aspx

You and your accompanying spouse, civil partner or cohabitant may also need to produce evidence of identity, by providing a sample of your signature(s) and/or photographic identification to the officials mentioned above or to a private bus operator.

If a person does not have any other identification then the only option is for them to provide a sample of their signature to compare with the signature on the pass.

A Free Travel Pass may be taken and returned to the Department of Social Protection if there are good reasons for suspecting that it is being misused.

Someone not having any form of identification is not good enough reason!

Gatling

Peppa Pig wrote: »

There is no reason why they can't get everyone to go to their local SW office or health centre to get photo id. I even think you can give permission for your passport photo to be used, to save a trip.

500,000 + paper pass 's have been issued and are still been issued to this day .

Asking social welfare to interview and process 500,000 + people couldn't be done in a month here under most circumstances

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

500,000 + paper pass 's have been issued and are still been issued to this day .

Asking social welfare to interview and process 500,000 + people couldn't be done in a month here under most circumstances

especially when we add all the extra work they might soon have when/if they ever start to process the Irish Water €100 payments.

there is no agreement on the Irish Water payments yet and no extra staff allocated either so no timeframe for when that work will start but at least the travel passes are being issued albeit quite slowly.

Peppa Pig

Gatling wrote: »

500,000 + paper pass 's have been issued and are still been issued to this day .

Asking social welfare to interview and process 500,000 + people couldn't be done in a month here under most circumstances

Maybe not a month, but why would SW need to interview them? The passport office don't interview us. We do the leg work and they check it and print the passport.

I'm sure if the DSP even cross referenced their pension database with their FTP one they could knock tens of thousands of deceased people off the list of those who need a plastic pass.

Regardless of the above, their plan of a gradual replacement, with no cut off and no need to return the cardboard one shows the level of interest the DSP have in curtailing the issue.

Let someone say that by 2018 they will be phased out. If we'd had a plan in 2012 to take 3 years then today public transport would have more capacity and/or more revenue.

I'm surprised that DB/BE/IR haven't demanded action.

thomasj

Extract from an article written by eolas magazine last December. Link to full article below.

Twenty-four per cent of people living in the State now have their own public services card but relatively little public debate about the privacy consequences is taking place. A total of 1,095,000 cards have been produced since their introduction in 2012. Of these, 318,500 are free travel variants, mainly for people aged over 66.

http://www.eolasmagazine.ie/public-services-cards-two-years-on/

Article was written last december

foggy_lad

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Maybe not a month, but why would SW need to interview them? The passport office don't interview us. We do the leg work and they check it and print the passport.

I'm sure if the DSP even cross referenced their pension database with their FTP one they could knock tens of thousands of deceased people off the list of those who need a plastic pass.

Regardless of the above, their plan of a gradual replacement, with no cut off and no need to return the cardboard one shows the level of interest the DSP have in curtailing the issue.

Let someone say that by 2018 they will be phased out. If we'd had a plan in 2012 to take 3 years then today public transport would have more capacity and/or more revenue.

I'm surprised that DB/BE/IR haven't demanded action.

You must set up security relating to your free travel pass such as having a security question and answer to ensure the future integrity of the your data, this is why it is taking so long.

Duiske

delahuntv wrote: »

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Do-I-need-to-show-proof-of-my-identity.aspx

If travelling on a pass, id may be requested to prove your entitlement to use the pass.

some line on a website is not needed and would be utterly ridiculous.

The conditions for being provided with the ftp FULLY cover the request for id is asked.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/780_Free-Travel.aspx

3.9 EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY

PAPER FREE TRAVEL PASS

Whenever a person is travelling using their free travel entitlement, s/he must produce their paper pass for inspection to an Inspector of the Transport Operator or to an Official of the Department of Social Protection, if asked. If considered necessary, the pass holder and/or his/her accompanying spouse/civil partner/cohabitant must also produce evidence of their identity by providing a sample of signature or photographic ID to the officials mentioned above. These officials have the authority to confiscate a Free Travel Pass if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the pass is being misused.

In addition, if you live in Dublin, Cork city, Waterford city, Limerick city or Galway city you must also produce a Free Travel Photo ID if you have a paper free travel pass.

You may also be required to provide proof of identification irrespective of where you reside or photographic id. This may be a condition of travel as outlined by the travel operator in question but notification of this should be advertised by the Operator either on their bus or by way of their website so that all intending passengers are fully aware of all documentation necessary to travel.

ardmacha

It is a measure of things that after the mother of recessions when the blind pension was cut that there has been no will to reduce fraud in this.

foggy_lad

ardmacha wrote: »

It is a measure of things that after the mother of recessions when the blind pension was cut that there has been no will to reduce fraud in this.

The social protection crowd have been at their new card for about 15 years but if they wanted they could have had a Leap type travel only card rolled out within a year!

Instead they are now almost perpetuating fraud by having the same card issued to all citizens as a social protection card with a tiny "T" in the corner to show the bearer Cards owner has free travel, at least the cards will be compatible with the readers on buses and trains so that the drivers and staff don't need to check and squint and double check that the card is in order.

cast_iron

foggy_lad wrote: »

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Do-I-need-to-show-proof-of-my-identity.aspx
If a person does not have any other identification then the only option is for them to provide a sample of their signature to compare with the signature on the pass.

Selectively quoting won't wash. The line before that states clearly:

"In addition, if you live in Dublin, Cork city, Waterford city, Limerick city or Galway city you must also produce a Free Travel Photo ID, which you can get from CIE offices for free."

So, those living in Dublin must have ID - a signature is not an alternative.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If they wish to use their FTP on services within the urban areas mentioned they CAN be asked to verify that they are the person named on the FTP document.

A signature is only sufficient IF their is a comparator already on the FTP document against which the sample can be compared.

If the authorised person remains unsatisfied as to the passholders entitlement to use the FTP presented,a fare can be sought.

Carrying some form of Photo-ID would be considered reasonable,if not actually best-practice,unless one is actively seeking out problems.

delahuntv

Duiske wrote: »

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/780_Free-Travel.aspx

Quote:
3.9 EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY

PAPER FREE TRAVEL PASS

Whenever a person is travelling using their free travel entitlement, s/he must produce their paper pass for inspection to an Inspector of the Transport Operator or to an Official of the Department of Social Protection, if asked. If considered necessary, the pass holder and/or his/her accompanying spouse/civil partner/cohabitant must also produce evidence of their identity by providing a sample of signature or photographic ID to the officials mentioned above. These officials have the authority to confiscate a Free Travel Pass if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the pass is being misused.

In addition, if you live in Dublin, Cork city, Waterford city, Limerick city or Galway city you must also produce a Free Travel Photo ID if you have a paper free travel pass.

You may also be required to provide proof of identification irrespective of where you reside or photographic id. This may be a condition of travel as outlined by the travel operator in question but notification of this should be advertised by the Operator either on their bus or by way of their website so that all intending passengers are fully aware of all documentation necessary to travel.

2 different scenarios.


Scenario 1 - Inspector checking. Clearly states that photo id or signature confirmation can be asked for.

Scenario 2 - If when boarding the transport, the driver or whoever asks for ID as a condition to board, then that must be flagged.

In the OP's case, it is scenario 1 that applied.

Peppa Pig

AlekSmart wrote: »

A signature is only sufficient IF their is a comparator already on the FTP document against which the sample can be compared..

Correct - If the pass is not signed, then there is no entitlement to free travel. Says it on the pass.

It could be anyone using it - entire families. They should be made to pay a fare or not travel. The inspector is also entitled to keep the pass.

I'm sure discretion and cop on would be used if id proved you were the person named on the pass.

Grab All Association

My dad is 71 he got the application for the new travel pass over a year ago. He was offered to fill out the information himself with two photographs or wait for the department to contact him. He didn't have any passport sized photographs so chose option B and a year later is still waiting to hear back. I suspect its not just a backlog. They probably can't afford to replace 100,000s of cards at once.

There was no need for the public service card. A separate electronic photo travel pass card was all that was needed. Those who no longer qualify for certain FT payments I imagine will have to hand back their card with FT on it.

As for JSB/JSA facial recognition devices could be installed in most of the larger Post Offices nationwide to prevent fraud. Costly at first but would save money in the long term and prevent fraud. There was a case a couple of years ago in Nenagh where a person lost their SW card and an alcoholic found it and went in and withdrew the persons payment.

Spanish Eyes

Are the new plastic cards readable on the buses/train/luas Leap readers?

If not, anyone know when they will?

I ask because at least that would cut down on someone making up a mickey mouse plastic card with the same background colour - that the driver hardly looks at, now I'm not blaming the driver either, they have enough to do.

jaymcg91

I think another poster said that they were aiming for the end of 2016 for the FT cards to be readable - but in reality, who knows.

Arc_Light

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Maybe not a month, but why would SW need to interview them? .

Because DSP staff, like HSE staff, can't do efficiency, they can't even, most of them, be bothered to wear a shirt and tie to work let alone show any degree (in my experience) of competence, efficiency, speed or general effort.

The chip pass has been planned for years, the fact that paper passes still exist, never mind being issued, is an inexcusable failure by the DSP and yet another sign of their incompetence.

Spanish Eyes

Arc_Light wrote: »

Because DSP staff, like HSE staff, can't do efficiency, they can't even, most of them, be bothered to wear a shirt and tie to work let alone show any degree (in my experience) of competence, efficiency, speed or general effort.

The chip pass has been planned for years, the fact that paper passes still exist, never mind being issued, is an inexcusable failure by the DSP and yet another sign of their incompetence.

I presume you are referring here to the Secretary General and his/her many layers of management who project managed this rollout so efficiently and effectively.

I wonder if the C+AG will give some time to this debacle in his annual report? It is taxpayer's money after all.

The general staff are just doing what they are told to do. I do not blame them at all. But a culture in an organisation comes from the top. You only have to look at how efficient Revenue is, both at public offices and with their online services. As much as we might not like them, they are good at what they do, and their staff are very professional, in my experience anyway.

Arc_Light

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I presume you are referring here to the Secretary General and his/her many layers of management who project managed this rollout so efficiently and effectively.

I wonder if the C+AG will give some time to this debacle in his annual report? It is taxpayer's money after all.

No I'm referring to the guys in the DSP office who, despite having an office job in a govt department, come to work in tshirts, jeans and (At best, for the ones in my office) polo shirts.
I'm talking about the people in the HSE who took 9 months to process a med card application that can be summarized as
-INCOME ZERO
-ASSETS ZERO
-INVESTMENTS ZERO
NAME, ADDRESS, PHONE, EMAIL
....9 months....their big issue? a stamp from college was missing...except it wasn't...but they sent a letter back 4 times demanding it, and 4 times I got it stamped, and 4 times I got a form letter back saying stamp this...

I'm talking about the people who need an hour AND FIFTEEN minutes lunch...not an hour, that would be worker oppression I suppose? but an hour and fifteen, even though they finish work at 4pm in some cases and have had a 20 min break earlier already with their hour.

I'm talking about the people who can let a phone ring for over 3 hours interrupted only by a break and redial, hoping, as they do, they won't have to answer it and deal with the problem.

Spanish Eyes wrote:

The general staff are just doing what they are told to do. I do not blame them at all. But a culture in an organisation comes from the top. You only have to look at how efficient Revenue is, both at public offices and with their online services. As much as we might not like them, they are good at what they do, and their staff are very professional, in my experience anyway.

I'd be happy to smash the sec gen back down to 100k, and a lot more..but that's not the reason why we have a culture of sloth and incompetence in our PS among the majority of staff, it's something that's been allowed to develop over the years and politicos are too gutless to challenge with the ones who do work afraid to admit it exists.

thomasj

I see that people getting on buses with new style travel passes have to flash them at card readers as of now on.