DublinBikes

RainyDay

beauf wrote: »

In my office I'd say about half of the regular uses of Dublin Bikes don't have smart phones. Some might have smartphone and no data plan. You might have a windows phone, which would be likely to get an app, or a decent browser.

Your office would seem to be be fairly non-typical so.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/smartphone-use-in-republic-hits-record-high-of-59-1.1925739

And folks who provide infrastructure need to be looking ahead for the future. If every service provider waiting for high smartphone ownership rates, the mobile revolution would never have happened. They need to be thinking about what ownership rates will be next year, and the year after.

Subpopulus wrote: »

That sounds like a mess to be honest. It would be like going on an easter hunt around a city, smartphone outstretched, looking for hire bike chained to a lamppost or a railing somewhere. Can you imagine 150 bikes locked to street furniture and random bike stands around Heuston Station? Having stations gives consistency as to where bikes can be found and returned.

It's not something I know a whole lot about, but at a guess, the folks who design and procure these systems are capable of considering the issues that you highlighted and come up with sensible solutions. At a guess, this approach wouldn't be sensible for hubs like Hueston, but may well be sensible for locations further out. It may well allow the Bikes system to be expanded out beyond the canals without incurring serious infrastructure costs.

monument

RainyDay wrote: »

Your office would seem to be be fairly non-typical so.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/smartphone-use-in-republic-hits-record-high-of-59-1.1925739

And folks who provide infrastructure need to be looking ahead for the future. If every service provider waiting for high smartphone ownership rates, the mobile revolution would never have happened. They need to be thinking about what ownership rates will be next year, and the year after.

The overall figure of a near 60% ownership of smartphones does not take into account that there will be a higher percentage of owners among younger people and that many smartphone users still don't have data allowances or not great ones.

RainyDay wrote: »

It's not something I know a whole lot about, but at a guess, the folks who design and procure these systems are capable of considering the issues that you highlighted and come up with sensible solutions. At a guess, this approach wouldn't be sensible for hubs like Hueston, but may well be sensible for locations further out. It may well allow the Bikes system to be expanded out beyond the canals without incurring serious infrastructure costs.

But allowing people to leave bicycles anywhere within a wide zone would cause havoc at transport hubs, havoc at city centre locations, havoc on many already crowded narrow footpaths, and a pain for redistribution.

I could see an altered system working where the display unit at docking stations is omitted from more locations, but the locking units are retained. You could use scan your phone or a card over the bicycle locking unit to unlock the bike you want.

bk

beauf wrote: »

In my office I'd say about half of the regular uses of Dublin Bikes don't have smart phones. Some might have smartphone and no data plan. You might have a windows phone, which would be likely to get an app, or a decent browser.

In the Rio system, you can also unlock the bikes by text or automated call system. No smartphone required.

Basically all you have to do is send them the number of the bike you want and your pin and the bike will unlock. Very similar to how many modern street pay parking systems work nowadays.

No smartphone app required, it is just the handiest option as you can also use the app to see how full the stand you are planning to cycle to is. But it isn't the only option.

So to repeat, the smartphone thing is a red herring. Unlocking with a smartphone app while the handiest way to do it isn't necessarily the only way. You can also support the vast majority of people with text and automated call center.

beauf

RainyDay wrote: »

Your office would seem to be be fairly non-typical so.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/smartphone-use-in-republic-hits-record-high-of-59-1.1925739..

I don't see my guesstimate of 50% and your link of 41% as very different.

Thats a huge amount of people without smart phones.

bk wrote: »

In the Rio system, you can also unlock the bikes by text or automated call system. No smartphone required.

Basically all you have to do is send them the number of the bike you want and your pin and the bike will unlock. Very similar to how many modern street pay parking systems work nowadays.

No smartphone app required, it is just the handiest option as you can also use the app to see how full the stand you are planning to cycle to is. But it isn't the only option.

So to repeat, the smartphone thing is a red herring. Unlocking with a smartphone app while the handiest way to do it isn't necessarily the only way. You can also support the vast majority of people with text and automated call center.

I found this...

About 20 per cent of Dublin City Council’s on-street parking revenue comes from the service

I've no problem with using apps and texts. But be aware a lot of people don't use them. Its 40%+ of the potential users.

bk

beauf wrote: »

I've no problem with using apps and texts. But be aware a lot of people don't use them. Its 40%+ of the potential users.

Honestly, I don't know why you have gone on an off topic rant about smartphone apps!!!

Even in more original post about the Rio bike system, I specifically mentioned that there was two ways two unlock the bikes, smartphone app OR automated call. I don't know why you choose too completely ignore the latter and go off on a rant about smartphones! It really isn't helpful and is completely off topic and completely misses the point I was making.

The point I was making is that the Dublin Bike stands are very expensive to rollout, requiring planning permission, heavy digging, power, wired Internet connection, touch screens and credit card readers!! But it doesnt have to be like this, much cheaper and quick to rollout Systems exist, which offer almost exactly the same functionality.

bk

Actually Germany has had a system where you can lock your bike at any street sign or bike stand in the city since 1998.

The system is now available in most German cities (Berlin, Munich, etc.).

It is called "Call a bike", it works by you calling an automated number and simply giving them the number of the bike you want and they give you a pin which you enter in the bike to unlock it.

When you are finished with the bike, simply lock it to any post, call the automated number again. Give them the code that the now locked bike generated and the street you locked it on.

All done almost 20 years ago and with no smartphone required!

Of course they now also support smartphone app use to speed up the process and also new bikes have their own GPS built in, so when you lock the bike you no longer have to contact them as the bike does it for you.

It is a nice system, though I'm not sure it would work here in Dublin due to theft and vandalism. Having said that if the GPS is built into the frame of the bike, then it might reduce theft.

However I do think that Dublin Bikes is a far too expensive system. I hope that they will go for a cheaper and more flexible system in future so they can speed up the rollout to the rest of the city.

A variant of the Bixi system would seem to be the best. Basically with Bixi the stands come on the back of a truck, then are connected together like Lego and bolted to the road. No need for planning permission or digging up the road. They also work by solar power and mobil network, so that also simplifies things.

Also no need for screens or credit card readers outside the city. Instead use apps, text and automated call system to unlock bikes like in Rio.

That would reduce both purchase and maintenance costs.

No reason why this can't be integrated into the existing Dublin bikes. Keep the screens in the city center locations for the tourists while you allow regular users to use their app or text to unlock all bikes. Best of both worlds.

beauf

Pointing out that your suggestion potentially, leaves out a large % of potential users is hardly a rant.

Be interesting to find out, if and/or how much the cost and time required to install the current system are a factor in the expansion plans.

Those RIO bikes look at lot lighter.

RainyDay

monument wrote: »

The overall figure of a near 60% ownership of smartphones does not take into account that there will be a higher percentage of owners among younger people and that many smartphone users still don't have data allowances or not great ones.

beauf wrote: »

I don't see my guesstimate of 50% and your link of 41% as very different. Thats a huge amount of people without smart phones.
[...]
I've no problem with using apps and texts. But be aware a lot of people don't use them. Its 40%+ of the potential users.

The 60% was last September. So what's it up to now - maybe 65% or 70%? And how many of the non-smartphone users are schoolkids, who parents won't trust with a smartphone [and who won't be DUblin Bike users]. And how many are quite elderly [and unlikely to be Dublin Bike users].

Yes, it is important to consider the user group that doesn't have smartphones yet, and provide alternative contact methods, but let's not hold up the rest of the population waiting for the Luddites to get on board.

monument wrote: »

But allowing people to leave bicycles anywhere within a wide zone would cause havoc at transport hubs, havoc at city centre locations, havoc on many already crowded narrow footpaths, and a pain for redistribution.

Yep, there are some real issues there all right, which I'm sure the folks who design and implement these solutions have thought about and addressed.

bk wrote: »

It is a nice system, though I'm not sure it would work here in Dublin due to theft and vandalism.

Isn't that what many naysayers said about the original Dublin Bikes system before it was installed? "Oh, half those bikes will be in the Liffey within a week" said the barstool experts.

monument

RainyDay wrote: »

Yep, there are some real issues there all right, which I'm sure the folks who design and implement these solutions have thought about and addressed.

The vast bulk of bike share systems around the world have went with docking stations.

RainyDay wrote: »

Isn't that what many naysayers said about the original Dublin Bikes system before it was installed? "Oh, half those bikes will be in the Liffey within a week" said the barstool experts.

The lack of theft and vandalism is partly because of the secure docking systems.

...

DublinBikes is in any case locked into the current system for 15 years, just 9 more years to go... unless the people who run DublinBikes change their tech.

bk

beauf wrote: »

Pointing out that your suggestion potentially, leaves out a large % of potential users is hardly a rant.

Be interesting to find out, if and/or how much the cost and time required to install the current system are a factor in the expansion plans.

Those RIO bikes look at lot lighter.

No, but you were completely wrong about that, my suggestion does not leave out a large percentage of users!!

Right from the first post I mentioned that my suggested system could use either smart phone app OR automated call service.

In other words it will work with any phone, even dumb mobile phones with zero data plan.

Ireland has over 100% mobile phone penetration. Sure maybe a very small percentage of very elderly or young children don't have a mobile phone, but they wouldn't be using Dublin bikes anyway.

I extremely doubt that there is a single current Dublin Bikes user without a mobile phone. Think about it, in order to be a Dublin bikes subscriber you most have a credit or debit card, €150 deposit, register online and be comfortable with touch screen computers and smart cards! Are you trying to tell me a person who is comfortable with all that doesn't have a mobile phone!!

Basically you took one part of my suggestion, went off on a rant about it and ignored the second part of my suggestion that completely invalidated your rant and solved the issue!

Btw I agree that the city center stands should continue to have the touch screens, so that tourists new to Dublin can register and setup without going online. I note that Dublin Bikes already has two types of stations, not all have the credit/debit card readers. So it seems they already are looking to save money on stations. So going a step further and simply lifting the stations further seems like a very good idea to me, with almost no down side and all up side.

BBTW yes the Rio bikes are much lighter and nicer to use then Dublin Bikes, more like a normal bike and more like the new Cork bikes.

bk

monument wrote: »

DublinBikes is in any case locked into the current system for 15 years, just 9 more years to go... unless the people who run DublinBikes change their tech.

Would it not be in their interest to add more options, such as cheaper to install and more flexible bike stations. Surely it would help drive and speed up the rollout of their schemes. The real money is in the management and running of these schemes, not the stand installation cost.

I agree with you that fixed stations is probably the best solution for Dublin. Certainly the german sustem has reportedly had a lot more theft and vandalism then the fixed station system. However I think there are a variety of fixed station solutions and unfortunately we seem to have chosen the most expensive one! I'm just hoping that in time we can move to a less costly and quicker to rollout solution.

beauf

RainyDay wrote: »

....And how many of the non-smartphone users are schoolkids,... how many are quite elderly ....

I just mentioned the Dublin Bike users in my office. There are all within the canal anyway. So expansion isn't an issue for them. Lets forget it all.

bk wrote: »

...Basically you took one part of my suggestion, went off on a rant about it and ignored the second part of my suggestion that completely invalidated your rant and solved the issue!...

Er no, I was just pointing out some people don't use technology the way you're suggesting. The stats reflect that, even on your parking example. But lets forget it. It seems to launched a rant about ranting.

beauf

RainyDay wrote: »

...Isn't that what many naysayers said about the original Dublin Bikes system before it was installed? "Oh, half those bikes will be in the Liffey within a week" said the barstool experts.

Too heavy to lift into the Liffey. Built like tanks.

monument wrote: »

...DublinBikes is in any case locked into the current system for 15 years, just 9 more years to go... unless the people who run DublinBikes change their tech....

It would be interesting to see some survey on the regular Dublin Bike users see what they think. It would be nice to have one less card in the wallet. rfid blocking wallet is become a necessity. Currently either my train card, or my door swipe don't work depending where they are. Everything seems to have an electronic card these days.

beauf

I generally only use it city centre, and lunch time as I found it the stands were always empty/full when I wanted to use them on the commute. So I stopped using them for that. Last week I walked into the centre from Phibsboro at around 9.30 and again there wasn't a bike at any stand until I hit the Liffey. This suggests the expansion further out required more stands city center to take them as the traffic seems to be one way much of the time.

bk

beauf wrote: »

It would be interesting to see some survey on the regular Dublin Bike users see what they think. It would be nice to have one less card in the wallet. rfid blocking wallet is become a necessity. Currently either my train card, or my door swipe don't work depending where they are. Everything seems to have an electronic card these days.

Yes which is ridiculous as pretty much every card in your wallet is doing the same thing, hi I'm BK!

They are all just doing it using their own encryption and obviously poit if at their own database. But fundamentally they are all doing the exact same thing. Identifying you to their database.

Really we should be moving to using your phone for almost all of these. Pay for items, unlock bikes, unlock door, pay for bus tickets. That is the future.

Of course we need to keep alternatives for those who are slow to change. Like the automated call system of Rio bikes. But in the end this is the future and for me it can't come soon enough.

monument

bk wrote: »

in order to be a Dublin bikes subscriber you most have a credit or debit card, €150 deposit, register online...

I agree your idea should be tested at the least... But unless they' re changed it, you can subscribe to DublinBikes with out a credit or debit card, as long as you have a bank account which can take direct debits.

bk

monument wrote: »

I agree your idea should be tested at the least...

I agree they should trial it even on the existing stands with screens.

Even then there are benefits:

- one less card in my wallet. Might not sound like much, but th number of card in my wallet has gotten ridiculous. It has gotten so bad that I leave many cards at home now, including Dublin Bikes, resulting in me using it far less often

- you won't be stuck queueing at the screen to unlock a bike as a tourist struggles to rent a bike as I've seen happen more then a few times. Just walk up to the bike you want and unlock it with your phone. Much greater.

SummerSummit

There needs to be more bike racks. Too many times arriving at a station and no space to put back the bike.

Also, there should be a station at the bottem of Grafton St. It's a pain in the tits walking from Central Bank/End of Nassau St.

ArmaniJeanss

SummerSummit wrote: »

There needs to be more bike racks. Too many times arriving at a station and no space to put back the bike.

Also, there should be a station at the bottom of Grafton St. It's a pain in the tits walking from Central Bank/End of Nassau St.

Molesworth St station is closer I'd say, its the one I use when going to Grafton St. Its definitely an easier walk.

A station at the bottom of Grafton St might be problematical. Presuming you mean the area between Boylesports and Specsavers? It would be fairly difficult for the vanman to stop here for redistribution, also maybe issue with it being part of a one way system (are there any stations on oneway streets?). Footpath already gets very crowded with pedestrians (presumably any station would need to rob footpath space).
Nothing unsurmountable I guess.

SummerSummit

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Molesworth St station is closer I'd say, its the one I use when going to Grafton St. Its definitely an easier walk.

A station at the bottom of Grafton St might be problematical. Presuming you mean the area between Boylesports and Specsavers? It would be fairly difficult for the vanman to stop here for redistribution, also maybe issue with it being part of a one way system (are there any stations on oneway streets?). Footpath already gets very crowded with pedestrians (presumably any station would need to rob footpath space).
Nothing unsurmountable I guess.

I think Andrew St. beside the Molly Malone Statue would be good spot (beside the tourist office).

Aard

Many issues wrt station catchment areas could be resloved by installing contraflow bike lanes where feasible.

nowecant

Is there any timelines being proposed for future expansion of this scheme? Are they sticking to the origional map/plan?

cgcsb

Would love to know that myself. Lots of ads for the scheme over town saying 'more bikes, more stations, 0 hassle' Yet we haven't had a new station in quite some time. Afaik the Liberties/Coombe area is next for expansion, according to the original plans followed by Grangegorman/ Stoneybatter

nowecant

Like this seems like a no brainer, I would have thought individual councilors would be making promises left right and center to get stations open in their areas.

The original Strategic Planning Framework and timeline look completely out of date now http://dublinobserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Dublin-Bikes-Strategic-Planning-Framework-Document-Full.pdf

circa 5000 bikes with circa 300 docking stations by 2016....

I understand there has been a funding shortfall but they should be adding at least one station every month or so.

MOH

cgcsb wrote: »

Would love to know that myself. Lots of ads for the scheme over town saying 'more bikes, more stations, 0 hassle' Yet we haven't had a new station in quite some time. Afaik the Liberties/Coombe area is next for expansion, according to the original plans followed by Grangegorman/ Stoneybatter

This.

I keep seem those large Coke Zero billboards advertising more stations in areas that the scheme doesn't cover. Seems a bit daft.

nowecant

10 New stations just announced for the area around Grangegorman where the new DIT campus is being built

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/17/dublinbikes-to-expand-to-grangegorman/

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055972651