Air Vents

stuckintipp

Hi Guys,

Building a house (under old regs) and a discussion has arrisen about the requirements of air vents.

Are air vents required in every room, ie kitchen, sitting room and Bedrooms?

It makes sense that an air vent is needed in rooms with Gas appliances, eg kitchen & sitting rooms.

But Bedrooms?

Anyone with the knowledge?

Eric

hexosan

What old regs

stuckintipp

hexosan wrote: »

What old regs

Wasnt there a change to building regs around March of last year?

sydthebeat

stuckintipp wrote: »

Wasnt there a change to building regs around March of last year?

no

the BUILING CONTROL regulations changed

not the 'building regulations'


for your answer look here

BryanF

stuckintipp wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Building a house (under old regs) and a discussion has arrisen about the requirements of air vents.

Are air vents required in every room, ie kitchen, sitting room and Bedrooms?

It makes sense that an air vent is needed in rooms with Gas appliances, eg kitchen & sitting rooms.

But Bedrooms?

Anyone with the knowledge?

Eric

you must comply with all current building regs. Ventilation is required for all habitable rooms: sitting/living/bedrooms and mechanical vents are required in all wc's & kirchen.

What is your air-tightness expected result? this will dictate the amount of ventilation required.

Strolling Bones

stuckintipp wrote: »

But Bedrooms?

Since Adam was a boy.

Gumbo

stuckintipp wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Building a house (under old regs) and a discussion has arrisen about the requirements of air vents.

Are air vents required in every room, ie kitchen, sitting room and Bedrooms?

It makes sense that an air vent is needed in rooms with Gas appliances, eg kitchen & sitting rooms.

But Bedrooms?

Anyone with the knowledge?

Eric

It's taken you 13 months to construct a dwelling and you are only at ventilation stage now?

893bet

kceire wrote: »

It's taken you 13 months to construct a dwelling and you are only at ventilation stage now?

I am nearly 20 months in and yet to start first fix inside plumb or electric! Not everyone is working on short term builds!
Chances are I have another 20months ahead!


OP, what year regs are you building to? Might be too late but a Hrv is pretty much a nessesity for the last 5 ish years.

stuckintipp

kceire wrote: »

It's taken you 13 months to construct a dwelling and you are only at ventilation stage now?

Changed builders which resulted in a few months of downtime

stuckintipp

893bet wrote: »

I am nearly 20 months in and yet to start first fix inside plumb or electric! Not everyone is working on short term builds!
Chances are I have another 20months ahead!


OP, what year regs are you building to? Might be too late but a Hrv is pretty much a nessesity for the last 5 ish years.

HRV?

893bet

stuckintipp wrote: »

HRV?

Heat recovery ventilation.

stuckintipp

893bet wrote: »

Heat recovery ventilation.

i did enquire with the original project manager into installing a system like that but was informed that as we have 2 gas fires we need natural ventilation. Then this ventilation would render useless the benefits of any mechanical heat recovery system.

galwaytt

stuckintipp wrote: »

i did enquire with the original project manager into installing a system like that but was informed that as we have 2 gas fires we need natural ventilation. Then this ventilation would render useless the benefits of any mechanical heat recovery system.

Not necessarily correct. I have a gas fire and HRV.

It depends on your appliance.

marsbar1

Makes no sense at all to have vents in every single room. Its probably due to some mad EU building regulation. I can understand one vent in a room that has an open fire or gas appliance but every room? How many houses in Ireland use gas heating? Most are oil fired heating with the boiler outside. Although you can slide the plastic vent covers closed it still is draughty and the whopping big holes in the walls must cause heat loss. Can these be safely blocked up with something like polyurethane expanding foam?

My house was built 2006-7. Was the builder too enthusiastic about vents, what regs would he have been following?

sydthebeat

marsbar1 wrote: »

Makes no sense at all to have vents in every single room. Its probably due to some mad EU building regulation. I can understand one vent in a room that has an open fire or gas appliance but every room? How many houses in Ireland use gas heating? Most are oil fired heating with the boiler outside. Although you can slide the plastic vent covers closed it still is draughty and the whopping big holes in the walls must cause heat loss. Can these be safely blocked up with something like polyurethane expanding foam?

My house was built 2006-7. Was the builder too enthusiastic about vents, what regs would he have been following?

HOLY JESUS!!!

first off, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT block up vents with foam.

every room needs vents to
1. exhaust moisture laden air which carries bacterial microbes
2. exhaust VOC's which are volatile organic compounds such as formaldehyde, chlorofluorocarbons etc which are dangerous to health and can be toxic
3. to exhaust moisture laden air which condenses on cold surfaces leading over time to fungal and mould, which in turn aggregate conditions such as asthma and emphysema
4. exhaust moisture laden air which causes dampness which can affect the structural stability of the building in elements fo structure such as floor joists, rafters etc.
5. most important of all, to exhaust carbon dioxide and provide oxygen to habitable rooms where people frequent

DOCARCH

marsbar1 wrote: »

My house was built 2006-7. Was the builder too enthusiastic about vents, what regs would he have been following?

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,22447,en.pdf (in 2006-7).

The key thing is that the more houses become insulated and airtight, the more you need to ventilate (in a controlled way).

marsbar1

Yes but this is way OTT. I've seen newer builds with only a vent in the bathroom -not every room and they don't suffer damp problems. Yes if its a passivhaus you need complicated ventilation systems, but not your average irish modern house.

I'm tempted to block them up and fill them in.

marsbar1

sydthebeat wrote: »

HOLY JESUS!!!

first off, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT block up vents with foam.

every room needs vents to
1. exhaust moisture laden air which carries bacterial microbes
2. exhaust VOC's which are such as formaldehyde, chlorofluorocarbons etc which are dangerous to health and can be toxic
3. to exhaust moisture laden air which condenses on cold surfaces leading over time to fungal and mould, which in turn aggregate conditions such as asthma and emphysema
4. exhaust moisture laden air which causes dampness which can affect the structural stability of the building in elements fo structure such as floor joists, rafters etc.
5. most important of all, to exhaust carbon dioxide and provide oxygen to habitable rooms where people frequent

1. You have windows for this when the house needs an airing.
2. CFC's come on, they have been banned for years, again windows
3. Only an issue in bathrooms and kitchens. You have extractor fans for this
4. see above. I also have a chimney which provides much passive stack ventilation.
5. There are no C02 or carbon monoxide producing applicances in the house. The house is not airtight - therefore plenty of oxygen will enter without the need of vents.

Vents in every room causes drafts, heat loss from the room and lowers the temp of the house. Very wasteful and a completely daft idea.

I mean we insulate with double glazing, pump cavities, make the house insulated in other ways and fuel efficient and then they tell us to effectively open the all the windows 24/7 with these damn cold vents! Crazy! Tell me something which makes actual sense as to why I shouldn't block the vents with foam?

MicktheMan

marsbar1 wrote: »

Tell me something which makes actual sense as to why I shouldn't block the vents with foam?

You (or family members) might develop health problems or even die. Good enough?

On a separate note, it amazes me that often posters come on hear whose questions are answered in detail by very knowledgeable and experienced experts and then they refuse to accept the truth. Why do they bother:rolleyes:.

marsbar1

Die from a bit of moisture in the air or damp on a wall? How many people in old damp Irish houses have died as a direct result? Be sensible. My parents have no vents at all. Neither do they or the rest of family have a damp house or have health problems. Ireland's outside air is moisture laden.

How about looking at perhaps the real reason for these requirements in building regs, that is an misinterpretation of EU law that was written for countries whose houses have gas heating, or much warmer and drier climates. The EU have been responsible for many a daft law in the UK and Ireland its about time they were told where to get off.

BryanF

first page hits on google:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK143947/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damp_%28structural%29

hole in the wall ventilation does contribute to heat loss, but you need ventilation to Provide Fresh air and to dilute pollutants.

Blocking up vents is not the answer - research demand control mechanical ventilation &/or MHVR, if your hole in the wall vents don't suit you

MicktheMan

marsbar1 wrote: »

Die from a bit of moisture in the air or damp on a wall? How many people in old damp Irish houses have died as a direct result? Be sensible. My parents have no vents at all. Neither do they or the rest of family have a damp house or have health problems. Ireland's outside air is moisture laden.

How about looking at perhaps the real reason for these requirements in building regs, that is an misinterpretation of EU law that was written for countries whose houses have gas heating, or much warmer and drier climates. The EU have been responsible for many a daft law in the UK and Ireland its about time they were told where to get off.

CO is deadly!
Mould in homes is a health hazard. Are you denying that there are no instances of mould on walls and ceilings in Irish homes?

This has nothing to do with EU law. It is physics in action. Ireland's outside air is no more moisture laden that than anywhere else especially during the winter. In winter (in Ireland) is the outside air wetter or dryer then air inside a house?

sydthebeat

marsbar1 wrote: »

1. You have windows for this when the house needs an airing.
2. CFC's come on, they have been banned for years, again windows
3. Only an issue in bathrooms and kitchens. You have extractor fans for this
4. see above. I also have a chimney which provides much passive stack ventilation.
5. There are no C02 or carbon monoxide producing applicances in the house. The house is not airtight - therefore plenty of oxygen will enter without the need of vents.

Vents in every room causes drafts, heat loss from the room and lowers the temp of the house. Very wasteful and a completely daft idea.

I mean we insulate with double glazing, pump cavities, make the house insulated in other ways and fuel efficient and then they tell us to effectively open the all the windows 24/7 with these damn cold vents! Crazy! Tell me something which makes actual sense as to why I shouldn't block the vents with foam?

You can lead a house to water. .......

I just hope it's only you living in that house.

hexosan

MicktheMan wrote: »

On a separate note, it amazes me that often posters come on hear whose questions are answered in detail by very knowledgeable and experienced experts and then they refuse to accept the truth. Why do they bother:rolleyes:.

It's simple really; because your not telling them the answer they want to hear.

marsbar1

MicktheMan wrote: »

CO is deadly!
Mould in homes is a health hazard. Are you denying that there are no instances of mould on walls and ceilings in Irish homes?

This has nothing to do with EU law. It is physics in action. Ireland's outside air is no more moisture laden that than anywhere else especially during the winter. In winter (in Ireland) is the outside air wetter or dryer then air inside a house?

Not at all. Mould is in many an old Irish home.

I would have said that in winter the outside air is wetter than air inside a heated house though correct me if I am wrong.

MicktheMan

marsbar1 wrote: »

1. Not at all. Mould is in many an old Irish home.

2. I would have said that in winter the outside air is wetter than air inside a heated house though correct me if I am wrong.

1. "old" has nothing to do with it. Mould can and will occur in any age house where there is a mis-balance in the heating and ventilation regime.

2. Wrong. The external air can be a factor of 4 dryer than internal heated air in winter. This is main reason for the requirement for appropriate ventilation in houses to keep them dry in winter. There are much better methods of ventilating a house than the "hole in the wall" vents you have.

Funnily enough, I agree with you that "hole in the wall" vents are poor at delivering the required ventilation rate and there are a lot better ways of ventilation a house. If you block the vents up and don't get continuous condensation on windows and/or mould on walls / ceilings / leather goods in the house, this means that the airtightness of the house is very poor and you are losing a hell of a lot of heat through air leakage / draughts. In this day and age, air tightening and intelligently ventilation the house is the smart way of living. Your money, your health, your choice.

Good luck

Handsandtools

marsbar1 wrote: »

Makes no sense at all to have vents in every single room. Its probably due to some mad EU building regulation. I can understand one vent in a room that has an open fire or gas appliance but every room? How many houses in Ireland use gas heating? Most are oil fired heating with the boiler outside. Although you can slide the plastic vent covers closed it still is draughty and the whopping big holes in the walls must cause heat loss. Can these be safely blocked up with something like polyurethane expanding foam?

My house was built 2006-7. Was the builder too enthusiastic about vents, what regs would he have been following?

There's no such thing in EU, just on Islands
The old way is making hole in the wall, but HRV is now to go or just a vent true the ceilings in to roof, with adjustable air flow.
Old system didn't prevent moist, because it cooled down rooms and condensate the moist inside the room and wall structures by reducing temperature in the room. It's like placing cup of water under extractor fan and waiting to dry the water out of it, without heating it!

Handsandtools

Did anyone heard about pressure differences in winter and summer. During the winter times, the moist inside the building tends to move true the structure towards outside, because of the pressure differences. That's why during the winter walls tend to be more moist than summer, and if room is not well heated there's more moist to condensate on the walls and move in to the structure. These old vent holes during the winter can cool down room and cause structure to get more wet.
So it's all about balance of heat and ventilation.

murphaph

Air vents like you see in Irish homes are not required here in Germany. They install trickle vents in the windows. The classic Irish "hole in the wall" vent does not exist here, but the importance of ventilating by opening windows wide (even in winter) is well known and widely practiced.

If a German flat develops mould it will more often than not see the landlord bill the tenant for failure to properly ventilate the place. I don't think the climates are so different that this could be a reason for vents being required in Ireland and not here.

Of course most people building nowadays install something better (we're going with DCV) than just the trickle vents, but they aren't required by the regs here.

Handsandtools

Difference is between moist content in the air during winter. If it'a a cold winter below 0, than air is dry, but above 0 it's very wet, especially in Ireland!
The heating system in Germany is better and people use thermostats, but in Ireland people switch heating on and off manually, leaving house cold and wet, when no one there. Just few use thermostats like to keep constant temperature in the building!

Gumbo

murphaph wrote: »

Air vents like you see in Irish homes are not required here in Germany. They install trickle vents in the windows. The classic Irish "hole in the wall" vent does not exist here, but the importance of ventilating by opening windows wide (even in winter) is well known and widely practiced.

If a German flat develops mould it will more often than not see the landlord bill the tenant for failure to properly ventilate the place. I don't think the climates are so different that this could be a reason for vents being required in Ireland and not here.

Of course most people building nowadays install something better (we're going with DCV) than just the trickle vents, but they aren't required by the regs here.

The vents in Ireland is one option to meet the building regulations. We allow trickle cents on the windows too asking as the meet the criteria for Part F of the Building Regulations.

Different people choose different methods of compliance.

marsbar1

At last some debate and discussion about other ways of doing things. Getting rid of the vents and using something like DCV sounds like a good idea.

murphaph

kceire wrote: »

The vents in Ireland is one option to meet the building regulations. We allow trickle cents on the windows too asking as the meet the criteria for Part F of the Building Regulations.

Different people choose different methods of compliance.

I meant to also mention that in older buildings here there are no trickle vents. I think it's a cultural thing...Germans just know you have to open the windows wide a couple of times a day. In Ireland people are generally not familiar with this practice.

In German it's called Stoßlüften.