Bringing politics into the workplace. Gay Marriage Referendum.

Black Menorca

The Social Club where I work are organising a 90's night and they are associating the event with supporting the Yes side in the referendum.

Clearly those on the social club committee are sympathetic to the Yes side.

That fine. But should they be so provocative about it in organising this event?

Surely it is beyond their remit as a social club and could cause some people staying away from events that are supposed to bring people together?

NIMAN

When you have CEOs of multi-nationals advocating a certain vote, I think its open season for everyone now.

lynski

With majority support, IBEC and other organisations, unions, etc supporting equality then it is not outside of the realms of possibility that the majority of people in your job are too.
People will have all kinds of objections to charities or causes supported by social clubs - shoebox appeal, Vincent DePaul, rehab, etc - people go or don't go to events; they are not compulsory. Go or don't go, you do live in a free country.

December2012

This is a civil rights issue. It's not the same as a fundraiser for a political party.

Presumably it's to show support and inclusiveness to all employees?

Manach

Personally I think would be a poor idea. A social club is a neutral part of the organisation. For it to be used by such a purpose makes it a tool for whatever elements are pushing for a political change be it the current push to redefine marriage or any other cause. Given in the US how opposing certain progressive causes can essentialy end a career, ie Mozilla, then this politicisation in Ireland in the workplace is worrying.

lynski

December2012 wrote: »

This is a civil rights issue. It's not the same as a fundraiser for a political party.

Presumably it's to show support and inclusiveness to all employees?

One would have to imagine that Twitter has plenty of christian/muslim/etc religious who do not agree with marriage equality in their personal lives but they work for a company who does, I guess they could find another job or separate their personal views from the workplace.

Black Menorca

So if the social club had an event supporting a NO vote, do you guys think it would be acceptable or even allowed happen?

lynski

Black Menorca wrote: »

So if the social club had an event supporting a NO vote, do you guts think it would be acceptable or even allowed happen?

Depends on the organisation they were supporting - most I have seen are religious or express views that denegrates somebody.
I guess I would not go if it were my workplace, just as I would not support the christmas child shoebox appeal for example.
I find it hard to imagine that the company are not behind it too?

Mrs OBumble

Black Menorca wrote: »

So if the social club had an event supporting a NO vote, do you guys think it would be acceptable or even allowed happen?

The only place it would be be unacceptable is in the public sector. In the private sector, companies and company organisations can support whatever causes they want so long as they don't bully anyone
anyone.

That said, if I was the manager I wouldn't allow it cos of the likely I'll feeling it would cause.

Creamy Goodness

it's not politics it's decent human rights.

Black Menorca

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The only place it would be be unacceptable is in the public sector. In the private sector, companies and company organisations can support whatever causes they want so long as they don't bully anyone
anyone.

That said, if I was the manager I wouldn't allow it cos of the likely I'll feeling it would cause.

Its the civil service.

I daresay a No event would laughed out of the social committee room.

As you say, its unecessary and potentially divisive. That should not be the role of a social committee.

RainyDay

Have you volunteered much in the running of the social club? Often, those who do least complain most about the work of those who do volunteer.

If you have a serious issue, you could either;

1) Have look for the rules or article of the club, and see if they are sticking to their own rules, or
2) Make a complaint to HR, or
3) Set up a social event supporting the No side, and see who turns up.

Or you could just not go to the Yes event....

Black Menorca

RainyDay wrote: »

Have you volunteered much in the running of the social club? Often, those who do least complain most about the work of those who do volunteer.

If you have a serious issue, you could either;

1) Have look for the rules or article of the club, and see if they are sticking to their own rules, or
2) Make a complaint to HR, or
3) Set up a social event supporting the No side, and see who turns up.

Or you could just not go to the Yes event....

I'm only in the job a short while. I don't know who runs the social club personally or their rules.

I just think being so in your face on one side or another is outside the remit of their function.

Pawwed Rig

If it is divisive then I would already question the organisations commitment to diversity. Identifying those who have unethical views can only be a good thing.

TINA1984

I support a Yes vote but I agree with you BM.

c_man

I would feel uncomfortable if my Sports&Social club at work started taking political stances like this. Keep it out of work ffs (Yes voter here).

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

it's not politics it's decent human rights.

I know people who think the same of abortion. Let's just keep it outside of the 9-5 and avoid all the potential sh!te that can come up with this kinda stuff.

Black Menorca

c_man wrote: »

I would feel uncomfortable if my Sports&Social club at work started taking political stances like this. Keep it out of work ffs (Yes voter here).

Thats how I feel too.

Pawwed Rig

As December2012 said it is not a political issue, it is a human rights issue. By some posters rational there should not even be LGBT societies in workplaces

TINA1984

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

As December2012 said it is not a political issue, it is a human rights issue. By some posters rational there should not even be LGBT societies in workplaces

It's a referendum, where people are voting. Ergo it is political.

Riverireland

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

As December2012 said it is not a political issue, it is a human rights issue. By some posters rational there should not even be LGBT societies in workplaces

By that logic are you also happy to have heterosexual societies in the workplace? I am personally not in favor of either. It is at the point where people are actually afraid to say they are voting no as they are branded homophobes. Each to their own but let's not shove it down people's necks, it just alienates people and becomes way too emotive. I have decided not to vote in this election as I'm so tired of the whole thing. So there yes and no campaigners, let it fall as it will!

Black Menorca

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

As December2012 said it is not a political issue, it is a human rights issue. By some posters rational there should not even be LGBT societies in workplaces

Who said that?

Please do not put words in my mouth.

This is a social club for everyone, not an avenue for certain people to espouse their political activism.


I suppose being in the civil service, voicing my concerns would be a waste of time?

MrWalsh

Black Menorca wrote: »

But should they be so provocative about it in organising this event?

Provocative? It's an equality issue and the yes vote is about having an inclusive society where all people are treated equally under our constitution. It's great that a workplace social club is supporting a Yes vote. If you don't agree then don't go to the event or organise a No vote supporters night yourself.

Pawwed Rig

Black Menorca wrote: »

Who said that?
Please do not put words in my mouth.

General tone of the thread really. I hadn't read your thread.

Riverireland wrote: »

By that logic are you also happy to have heterosexual societies in the workplace?

Do you know of any workplaces that are actively discriminating against hetrosexuals?

Riverireland wrote: »

It is at the point where people are actually afraid to say they are voting no as they are branded homophobes.

That is because they are.

mikom

Switch it a bit.......

The Social Club where I work are organising a 1890's night and they are associating the event with supporting the Yes side in the referendum on giving women the vote.

Clearly those on the social club committee are sympathetic to the Yes side.

That fine. But should they be so provocative about it in organising this event?

Surely it is beyond their remit as a social club and could cause some people staying away from events that are supposed to bring people together?

Riverireland

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

General tone of the thread really. I hadn't read your thread.



Do you know of any workplaces that are actively discriminating against hetrosexuals?


That is because they are.

Are you a hetrophobe? It sounds that way, it's a referendum, people are entitled to vote which ever way they like.

Carlos Orange

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If it is divisive then I would already question the organisations commitment to diversity. Identifying those who have unethical views can only be a good thing.

Good for what? Peoples political and religious views shouldn't be held against them in the workplace.

ardmacha

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

As December2012 said it is not a political issue, it is a human rights issue. By some posters rational there should not even be LGBT societies in workplaces

Identifying those who have unethical views can only be a good thing.

These are exactly the type of biased statements which shows why this kind of thing should not belong in the workplace. Whether the legal framework for same sex relationships be called Civil Partnership or Marriage is in no sense a civil rights issue, but a political one. Yet here it is described as such, and then the suggestion that anyone who disagrees with a political proposition also holds other views on who should be in the workplace as well, and is some sort of inferior person who should be outed, and all of this from a moderator in another forum.

There is a profound lack of symmetry here, a no meeting in a workplace would be criticised by most of those who think it OK to organise a meeting for the side they are on.

c_man

People are really arguing that an upcoming referendum on a constitutional change isn't political...

In the lead-up to the Children's rights referendum a few years back, someone at my then workplace plastered all the coffee docks/general notice areas with 'Yes' posters. Bad form imo, not because I hate kids (using some people's logic) but rather again I think it best not to bring this stuff to the workplace in the lead-up to a vote. And I'm not opposed to the Bring-Your-Kids-To-Work day or the various initiatives the S&S club have raising money for kids charities surprisingly enough.

OP, on the issue at hand I'd keep your mouth shut tbh. You can see here that voicing any kind of concern re the mixing of politics into the workplace (especially the public service!) will label you either a homophobe/no-voter. Even though that's the not the case (and completely immaterial to your work as long as it doesn't impact your day-to-day duties imo) it's best not to stir the nest.

MrWalsh

ardmacha wrote: »

There is a profound lack of symmetry here, a no meeting in a workplace would be criticised by most of those who think it OK to organise a meeting for the side they are on.

That's because the only morally correct stance is that we should all be treated equally under our constitution. Someone in favour of a no vote wants to enforce legal discrimination based on sexuality. So they are (a) morally wrong and (b) homophobic.

We should fight discrimination everywhere we see it if we want a society where everyone is treated equally. That extends to workplaces.

MrWalsh

Riverireland wrote: »

Are you a hetrophobe? It sounds that way, it's a referendum, people are entitled to vote which ever way they like.

Heterophobia doesn't exist.

It's a logical fallacy to suggest that because someone is pro gay rights, that they are heterophobic.

I suggest you read up on it. Start here maybe:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Heterophobia

ardmacha

MrWalsh wrote: »

That's because the only morally correct stance is that we should all be treated equally under our constitution. Someone in favour of a no vote wants to enforce legal discrimination based on sexuality. So they are (a) morally wrong and (b) homophobic.

Single people are treated in a different way from married people in the constitution, people in multiple relationships are treated in a different way from those in single relationships. Do you propose equalising these things and if not are you a singlephobe or a polygamyphobe?

As for morality, the proper thing is for the constitution to support the creation of families and not to dilute this by pandering to special interest groups interested in freeloading on this support.

Black Menorca

MrWalsh wrote: »

Provocative? It's an equality issue and the yes vote is about having an inclusive society where all people are treated equally under our constitution. It's great that a workplace social club is supporting a Yes vote. If you don't agree then don't go to the event or organise a No vote supporters night yourself.

But thats part of my point.

Can you imagine the uproar if someone actually did organise such an event in a workplace?

Black Menorca

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

General tone of the thread really. I hadn't read your thread.



Do you know of any workplaces that are actively discriminating against hetrosexuals?


That is because they are.

The original post would be a start maybe.

ardmacha

Do you know of any workplaces that are actively discriminating against hetrosexuals?

It seems there are many workplaces actively discriminating against those who support marriage. But its OK to discriminate against people you don't like, but not against people you agree with.

Emsloe

I think it's inappropriate for a social club event. I'm sure it's well-intentioned but a more enlightened social club would be cognisant of the fact that some/many of the workforce may not wish to support the 'yes' campaign.

It's divisive and there's no need for it in the workplace, social event or otherwise.

Riverireland

MrWalsh wrote: »

Heterophobia doesn't exist.

It's a logical fallacy to suggest that because someone is pro gay rights, that they are heterophobic.

I suggest you read up on it. Start here maybe:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Heterophobia

Now that is just rediculous. There is a word for the hatred of women but none for the hatred of men, that doesn't mean hatred of men doesn't exist does it?

It is a fallacy to suggest that because someone does not agree with gay marriage that they are in any way against homosexuality. They may or may not be, it is not a given.

Are gay people who are against gay marriage homophobes too?

Black Menorca

MrWalsh wrote: »

That's because the only morally correct stance is that we should all be treated equally under our constitution. Someone in favour of a no vote wants to enforce legal discrimination based on sexuality. So they are (a) morally wrong and (b) homophobic.

We should fight discrimination everywhere we see it if we want a society where everyone is treated equally. That extends to workplaces.

Wow. People actually believe this stuff.

So, once I conform to the official group think, I'll be ok.

this is almost Orwellian.

PaddyWhack2015

Riverireland wrote: »

Now that is just rediculous. There is a word for the hatred of women but none for the hatred of men, that doesn't mean hatred of men doesn't exist does it?

*ridiculous

The word for hatred of men is in fact "misandry".

In the civil service, it's actually quite a regular thing to get political emails and to be invited to political events. For example, the CPSU sent emails with posters for every water charges protest. There's also generally quite a few copies of the union magazine lying around the place. Union meetings, which are aimed at creating momentum to bring political pressure to bear on the politicos who often make the actual decisions, are often held during working hours, with meeting space provided for the meetings in the premises.

If you don't want to receive emails from the social club, ask them to delete you from the address book, or simply don't open the emails from them. It's a free country, presumably no one has you strapped into your chair, with your eyes taped open while they open the email.

So that takes care of the political activity in work issue.

It is somewhat ironic that Dunnes Stores union members are still regarded by many as heroes for protesting against apartheid which, lest we forget, also restricted the right to marry in South Africa. However, some people think apartheid based on sexuality is perfectly fine.

My own view is that if you're against gay marriage, then fcuk off and don't have one. None of the gay men I've encountered have tried to marry me, and I haven't heard of anyone else being forced into a gay marriage, so I think we're safe on that score. I have however heard of a few people being forced into heterosexual marriage, usually to support family, for the sake of the baby dontcha know. Those did not end well.

I've also met some married gay people, which basically swung me from someone who doesn't give a sh1t about gay marriage to someone who thinks that anyone who wants to deny a category of person that happiness is an a$$hole.

MrWalsh

Black Menorca wrote: »

Wow. People actually believe this stuff.

So, once I conform to the official group think, I'll be ok.

this is almost Orwellian.

You are perfectly entitled to be against equality, but you can expect to be called out as a homophobe if you are favouring discrimination based on sexuality. Just like you would be called out as a racist if you were favouring discrimination based on skin colour.

Black Menorca

PaddyWhack2015 wrote: »

If you don't want to receive emails from the social club, ask them to delete you from the address book, or simply don't open the emails from them. It's a free country, presumably no one has you strapped into your chair, with your eyes taped open while they open the email.

For good or bad, unions are there to advocate for members' interests.

Social clubs should not be used as vehicles for political activists, in my opinion.

AndonHandon

It's inappropriate for a work social club to politicise an event like this. The social club organise social events for the staff and that is all they should be. If you go to the event it shows that you support the Yes campaign but you might not have any interest in the referendum so your social club event is ruined. The organisers can run their own Yes campaign fundraiser outside of work if they want. I would complain OP.

Black Menorca

MrWalsh wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to be against equality, but you can expect to be called out as a homophobe if you are favouring discrimination based on sexuality. Just like you would be called out as a racist if you were favouring discrimination based on skin colour.

Scary stuff.

Divisadero

Black Menorca wrote: »

Its the civil service.

I daresay a No event would laughed out of the social committee room.

As you say, its unecessary and potentially divisive. That should not be the role of a social committee.

I'm a little surprised at this as they are usually very cautious within the Civil Service even if they are supporting the govt side of the debate. Then again I think I may know the office you work in which may explain things!

Back on topic this is a bad idea and very divisive. If any group wants to set up a support group for either side that's one thing. I'm all in favour of free speech amongst our citizens. But to hijack the social club which should attempt to be all inclusive is not the way to proceed.

Someone else mentioned the involvement of multinationals in the debate. They should also steer clear. I realise that large corporations can do pretty much what they like these days and expect governments to bend to their will and agendas but they should stay out of our nation's constitutional affairs. It would be nice to someday have a government that would explain that forcefully to Twitter et al. Well I can dream...

By the way I am also in favour of a yes vote in the referendum. But even so the CEO of Twitter can keep his opinion to himself and butt out of our business.

MrWalsh

Black Menorca wrote: »

For good or bad, unions are there to advocate for members' interests.

I thought you said it was the social club, not the union?

Some members of the union are no doubt homosexual, so their interests are being represented along with the rest of us who advocate equality.

MrWalsh

Black Menorca wrote: »

Scary stuff.

Yes it is scary that you cannot see why discriminating based on sexuality is wrong.

KCC

Firstly, I'm planning to vote yes.

Secondly, if this is event is happening in a government department, then it is clearly wrong. According to the Introduction to the Civil Service document (see http://hr.per.gov.ie/files/2011/05/14_Civil_Service_Induction_Manual_2008_En.pdf):




Members of grades with maximum salaries above the Clerical
Officer maximum are completely debarred from political activity,
... including making public statements or comments on political topics.

The Code of Conduct for Civil Servants explicitly states the restrictions ( see Section 5 -. In particular http://hr.per.gov.ie/files/2011/06/Civil-Service-Code-of-Standards-and-Behaviour.pdf)


All civil servants above clerical level

are totally debarred from engaging in

any form of political activity

Civil Servants

must conscientiously serve the duly

elected Government of the day, the

other institutions of State and the

public;

(b) must advise and implement policy

impartially and, in particular, be

conscious of the need to maintain the

independence necessary to give any


future Minister or Government

confidence in their integrity

FloatingVoter

If it's taking place outside of office hours as stated in the OP and attendance is not mandatory, what is the problem ?
Exercise your legal and moral right not to attend. Let them exercise the legal and moral right of social committees everywhere to have crap themed parties.

TINA1984

MrWalsh wrote: »

I thought you said it was the social club, not the union?

Some members of the union are no doubt homosexual, so their interests are being represented along with the rest of us who advocate equality.

Would you get off your soapbox ffs, the people here aren't arguing the pro's and con's of the referendum, they're discussing as to whether its appropriate that politics are being brought into a workplace which is supposed to be apolitical by definition.

Carlos Orange

TINA1984 wrote: »

Would you get off your soapbox ffs, the people here aren't arguing the pro's and con's of the referendum, they're discussing as to whether its appropriate that politics are being brought into a workplace which is supposed to be apolitical by definition.

True believers can never get off their soapboxes.

PaddyWhack2015

TINA1984 wrote: »

Would you get off your soapbox ffs, the people here aren't arguing the pro's and con's of the referendum, they're discussing as to whether its appropriate that politics are being brought into a workplace which is supposed to be apolitical by definition.

It's not being brought into the workplace. It's being brought into a pub, the invitations happen to be circulating through work emails. Same way charity drives often are.

I say congrats to the people who organised it. A certain level of racism,sexism and homophobia are still unfortunately socially acceptable within the civil service, and lots of people don't give a sh1t that it's illegal.

Would you have the same objection to an anti-racism night out? A pro-integration night out?

TINA1984

PaddyWhack2015 wrote: »

It's not being brought into the workplace. It's being brought into a pub, the invitations happen to be circulating through work emails. Same way charity drives often are.

Is wearing badges in the workplace supporting a Yes vote acceptable?

PaddyWhack2015 wrote: »

Would you have the same objection to an anti-racism night out? A pro-integration night out?

What are you trying to get at here?