Assigned Certifier!?! Yay or Nay!?!

silverdecks

I have recently started my new build. Have my assigned certifier and all sort d and on board.

Now my question is, herselfs cousin has started and extension for their cottage, extension is adding 100sq metres. They seem to be of the opinion they don't need assigned certifierand an engineer has told them there is a way around it, something about not submitting the final letter to the council?

Their planning was granted within the last 8 months so I think they are under the new regs and need a certifier. Wondering has anyone any thoughts on this?

sydthebeat

they definitely need an Assigned Certifier

DOCARCH

Nothing to think about! If they are extending 100 m.sq. they need an Assigned Certifier (and Design Certifier).

DOCARCH

silverdecks wrote: »

...has started and extension for their cottage, extension is adding 100sq metres.

If they have already started and have not appointed an Assigned Certifier they could be in trouble...they obviously did not submit a Commencement Notice?

prewtna

i smell trouble on this one.

silverdecks

Ya I was thinking that cause of all the regulations I am now caught by. Herself was telling me all this and I was thinking Christ whatever engineer advised em of that was well wrong!

DOCARCH

The problem is that whatever the engineer has told her...ultimately she is responsible...maybe she should get the engineers opinion in writing first (before raising any issue)?

She would want to check this out a.s.a.p., as there is no retrospective way of submitting a commencement notice...i.e. no retrospective way of making the building/extension legal!

BryanF

silverdecks wrote: »

Ya I was thinking that cause of all the regulations I am now caught by. Herself was telling me all this and I was thinking Christ whatever engineer advised em of that was well wrong!

1. Has the engineer supplied this nugget in formal correspondence?
2. Did the engineer do design drawings and is s/he managing the construction process including providing cert of compliance with building regs & b control regs?
3. Has the eng supplied proof of professional indemnity insurance?

I echo the comments above, this work falls under the building control refs si9 and as such an assigned certifer & designer are required.

Strolling Bones

This will happen over and over and over.
The recesion will end.
Money WILL be borrowed and loaned.
Properties will be sold for the banks will want it so.
The regulations will fall further and further into disrepute.

Oh - and architects will be sued.

RORY O CONNOR

Under the rules the extension cannot be used if the final paperwork/cert of completion is not submitted.

Strolling Bones

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

Under the rules the extension cannot be used if the final paperwork/cert of completion is not submitted.

Indeed.
I am sure all will take heed.

mickdw

The idea that there is no retrospective fix is a joke. Something will have to change there.
It's all well and good preventing commercial premises from being occupied until all is in order but on a private dwelling extension, it's just silly.

sydthebeat

mickdw wrote: »

The idea that there is no retrospective fix is a joke. Something will have to change there.
It's all well and good preventing commercial premises from being occupied until all is in order but on a private dwelling extension, it's just silly.

litterally NO ONE will give a damn

Strolling Bones

mickdw wrote: »

it's just silly.

When one understands that this building control legilsation was driven by the state to protect the state from it's citizens - do not look for help with your over priced negative equitied pyrite ridden / fire trap - then it makes perfect sense.

Nothing to do with raising building standards.

theirishlad

Just to let people know u can now opt out of having a assigned certifier .... U must do this at ur commencement notice stage.
Fair enough if u get it signed u have a fall back in the future but it's still a lot of money and don't listen to architects all the time.

But yes since September the 1st u can opt out

sydthebeat

theirishlad wrote: »

Just to let people know u can now opt out of having a assigned certifier .... U must do this at ur commencement notice stage.
Fair enough if u get it signed u have a fall back in the future but it's still a lot of money and don't listen to architects all the time.

But yes since September the 1st u can opt out

and just to confirm that you cannot opt out of the design certifer works which are the submission of building regulations compliance drawings and documents (typically prelim DEAP assessment and construction drawings)

the good news is that this can be complied by other professionals than the 'holy trinity'

Gumbo

theirishlad wrote: »

Just to let people know u can now opt out of having a assigned certifier .... U must do this at ur commencement notice stage.
Fair enough if u get it signed u have a fall back in the future but it's still a lot of money and don't listen to architects all the time.

But yes since September the 1st u can opt out

Your a bit late to the party with that info

walkingshadow

Great news that people can opt out of the assigned certifier roles since Sept. 1. It was madness for one offs and extensions- glad to see common sense has prevailed.

Strolling Bones

Yes. Much dancing at the crossroads can ensue ....

RORY O CONNOR

walkingshadow wrote: »

Great news that people can opt out of the assigned certifier roles since Sept. 1. It was madness for one offs and extensions- glad to see common sense has prevailed.

Yes indeed and now people are back to being exposed to shoddy cowboy builders-a real reason to be excited. At least with the old system you had a fallback that if there was something wrong you had somewhere to go

There will still be an onus on the self builder to demonstrate to the local authority that compliance with the current building regs has been achieved and the council will be asking how it has been achieved. Don't simply assume that they can't be bothered. If you can't demonstrate this adequately then its possible you may not get the completion certification done and the property may well be habitable but unsalable in the future-but sure what the hell! Some mortgage providers are seeking certification for a suitably qualified professional in order that you may draw down the loan payments.

walkingshadow

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

Yes indeed and now people are back to being exposed to shoddy cowboy builders-a real reason to be excited. At least with the old system you had a fallback that if there was something wrong you had somewhere to go

There will still be an onus on the self builder to demonstrate to the local authority that compliance with the current building regs has been achieved and the council will be asking how it has been achieved. Don't simply assume that they can't be bothered. If you can't demonstrate this adequately then its possible you may not get the completion certification done and the property may well be habitable but unsalable in the future-but sure what the hell! Some mortgage providers are seeking certification for a suitably qualified professional in order that you may draw down the loan payments.

Eh, ok?

blue star

So would you recommend to still get a certifier Rory?? Just to be sure?

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

Yes indeed and now people are back to being exposed to shoddy cowboy builders-a real reason to be excited. At least with the old system you had a fallback that if there was something wrong you had somewhere to go

There will still be an onus on the self builder to demonstrate to the local authority that compliance with the current building regs has been achieved and the council will be asking how it has been achieved. Don't simply assume that they can't be bothered. If you can't demonstrate this adequately then its possible you may not get the completion certification done and the property may well be habitable but unsalable in the future-but sure what the hell! Some mortgage providers are seeking certification for a suitably qualified professional in order that you may draw down the loan payments.

Gumbo

blue star wrote: »

So would you recommend to still get a certifier Rory?? Just to be sure?

Depending on cost, yes. You still need certification of some sort so an AC is the top tier approach (paper wise anyway) or if you trust any other engineer, or architect or technologist then that could be a better road to travel too.

Metric Tensor

I think it depends on a lot of factors:

Your trust in the builder.

Your trust in the person inspecting the build.

Whether you feel a two tier certification system will lead to a two tier house pricing system in future - depends on your thoughts on possible future sale.

What the bank says.

stickybookmark

sydthebeat wrote: »

and just to confirm that you cannot opt out of the design certifer works which are the submission of building regulations compliance drawings and documents (typically prelim DEAP assessment and construction drawings)

No you don't have to submit a DEAP assessment, just construction drawings

stickybookmark

blue star wrote: »

So would you recommend to still get a certifier Rory?? Just to be sure?

No because the certifier will wreck your f*ckin head, it gives one person way too much control/involvement over your house.

Better to have your builder building the house,your engineer doing their engineer thing (and that alone) , your architect/designer in their architect box (and staying in it) and you calling the major shots, not this AC getting their nose stuck in every aspect and telling you what kind of house you can build for your own dream home which you are paying for!

mickdw

stickybookmark wrote: »

No you don't have to submit a DEAP assessment, just construction drawings

And how can anyone realistically prepare building drawings without DEAP assessment at least.

stickybookmark

mickdw wrote: »

And how can anyone realistically prepare building drawings without DEAP assessment at least.

That's a different point, I'm just saying you don't have to submit them

sydthebeat

stickybookmark wrote: »

No you don't have to submit a DEAP assessment, just construction drawings

have you yet uploaded a commencement notice on the BCMS ?

you MUST submit


Schedule of Plans
Inspection Plan
Plans
Inspection Notification Framework
Specifications and Particulars

the construction drawings go under the "plans" banner

the prelim DEAP assessment goes under the "specifications" banner

.... generally


i say generally because at the end of the day its down to the LA BCO to determine if its a valid submission of not.

but what i will say is that you need more than just "construction drawings"... you do need some kind of specification to back up the building reg compliance aspect


edit:

the definition of "compliance documents" is:

Compliance Documentation (plans,
calculations, specifications, etc.) and
to include (i) general arrangement
drawings, (ii) a schedule of
compliance documents as currently
designed or to be prepared at a later
date, (iii) online assessment on the
BCMS

Metric Tensor

stickybookmark wrote: »

not this AC getting their nose stuck in every aspect and telling you what kind of house you can build for your own dream home which you are paying for!

You realise the AC works for you?

Their only job is to ensure the house is built in accordance with the plans, particulars and regulations you agreed with your designer and lodged with the Local Authority before construction.

Gumbo

stickybookmark wrote: »

No you don't have to submit a DEAP assessment, just construction drawings

stickybookmark wrote: »

That's a different point, I'm just saying you don't have to submit them

Building Control will request them as a demonstration of compliance with Part L.

mickdw

Metric Tensor wrote: »

You realise the AC works for you?

Their only job is to ensure the house is built in accordance with the plans, particulars and regulations you agreed with your designer and lodged with the Local Authority before construction.

This is typical of clients who won't build to the regs.
The Engineer should keep his nose out is always the opinion.

stickybookmark

Metric Tensor wrote: »

You realise the AC works for you?

Their only job is to ensure the house is built in accordance with the plans, particulars and regulations you agreed with your designer and lodged with the Local Authority before construction.

My AC wouldn't allow anything bigger than a 6 inch cavity because he ''didn't feel comfortable with it'' (i.e. it's new to him) he wasn't willing to stand over it. He said I had to build the entrance walls now coz they're mentioned in the planning and are a ''health and safety issue''. I told him I don't have the money to build the entrance walls now, his reply ''you have to'' (coz he says so) I could go on.

Sydthebeat on the BCMS commencement notice I lodged, under Supporting documents I had to lodge:

As well as the 6 required Statutory documents, at least 3 supporting documents are also required for submission.
The additional support documents are as follows:
Select at least one from the following

• General Arrangement Drawings
• Plans
• Sections
• Elevations

And at least one of the following

• Schedule of Plans
• Calculations
• Specifications and Particulars

And at least one of the following

• Inspection Plan
• Inspection Notification Framework

In each case I have highlighted and put in bold the option I went for. For schedule of plans I put a list of my construction drawings. If you are opting out of AC you submit the Opt Out form in place of the Inspection plan

stickybookmark

kceire wrote: »

Building Control will request them as a demonstration of compliance with Part L.

When, when the house is built? Coz my commencement notice was approved and they didn't ask for them (note I have a provisional one done obviously but they have not asked for it)

Metric Tensor

stickybookmark wrote: »

My AC wouldn't allow anything bigger than a 6 inch cavity because he ''didn't feel comfortable with it'' (i.e. it's new to him) he wasn't willing to stand over it. He said I had to build the entrance walls now coz they're mentioned in the planning and are a ''health and safety issue''. I told him I don't have the money to build the entrance walls now, his reply ''you have to'' (coz he says so) I could go on.

You've a few different issues there! Can I ask did you talk to a few different ACs before employing one? Was the person who originally designed the house?

I'm not trying to pick holes or start an argument here. Just some comments on the above:

1. The cavity - if your AC was also your structural engineer (i.e. signing to say the house complied with Part A of the TGDs) then it's his call as to what he is comfortable certifying. But he still works for you so you could have employed a different engineer who was comfortable designing a wall with a larger cavity. Unless you have structural engineering qualifications yourself you will have to rely on an engineer to certify that your house is safe. The cavity width should have been decided quite early on in the process alongside your preliminary DEAP.

2. As for the front wall - it sounds too nuanced for me to give comment. I'm not sure what the H & S issue was or is but if your AC was also your PSDP he may have had to make a judgement call. This of course is all separate from the fact that you have to comply with your planning permission.

3. In general the AC will say "you have to" when he/she is making the building comply with the building regulations. It is the whole reason the role was introduced.

Metric Tensor

stickybookmark wrote: »

When, when the house is built? Coz my commencement notice was approved and they didn't ask for them (note I have a provisional one done obviously but they have not asked for it)

I think it might vary between authorities. They are definitely required a commencement notice stage in Galway and kceire would know if they are required by DCC.

kieran.

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I think it might vary between authorities. They are definitely required a commencement notice stage in Galway and kceire would know if they are required by DCC.

Louth Co Co also requires them.

stickybookmark

Metric Tensor wrote: »

You've a few different issues there! Can I ask did you talk to a few different ACs before employing one? Was the person who originally designed the house?

.

Yep got quotes from 3 ACs and picked one.

No, another gripe I have with the AC thing , the guy that designed my house was an Arch Tech so I couldn't keep him on as AC, more's the pity as he is a very competent, reasonable fellow.

My AC also told me my downstairs toilet was compliant with Regs and I subsequently (after walls had been built) found out it isn't! Too late to change it now so if I do get inspected I don't know what will happen.

Metric Tensor

stickybookmark wrote: »

Yep got quotes from 3 ACs and picked one.

Was it the cheapest one?!

stickybookmark

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Was it the cheapest one?!

Of course! But he was also recommended to me by someone I trust

Metric Tensor

But I bet when you were at the electric shop did you didn't pick the cheapest television!

Metric Tensor

P.S. - That last post was meant as a tongue-in-cheek rather than a scathing response. But I can't edit it to add a softening smiley!!!!

Gumbo

stickybookmark wrote: »

When, when the house is built? Coz my commencement notice was approved and they didn't ask for them (note I have a provisional one done obviously but they have not asked for it)

Usually here, it will be requested directly by the BCO after the first inspection (if selected for inspection). It will be sent directly to the BCO in question and not through the BCMS system. The BCO may or may not decide to upload it as part of the file or he may leave the email saved digitally or a printed copy in the physically file.

stickybookmark

Metric Tensor wrote: »

But I bet when you were at the electric shop did you didn't pick the cheapest television!

Just because I happened to pick the cheapest quote is not the reason this happened. You can get expensive @ssholes as well. The whole AC thing for one off self builds is unecessary, giving one person too much power. The only person who should have that kind of power over your personal project/dream home is you.

sydthebeat

stickybookmark wrote: »

Just because I happened to pick the cheapest quote is not the reason this happened. You can get expensive @ssholes as well. The whole AC thing for one off self builds is unecessary, giving one person too much power. The only person who should have that kind of power over your personal project/dream home is you.

power? what power?

the only one with power to enforce building regulations is your local building control officer. Your AC has no power to enforce the regulations.

if you refuse you comply with the legal requirements all the AC can do is refuse to certify

Metric Tensor

The assigned certifier actually has very little power. The power is completely with Building Control and the Building Regulations. All the Assigned Certifier does is check that the house complies with the building regs and advises you, his client, if it doesn't so that you can fix it and your house can comply with the regulations. I think what you see as the AC putting unnecessary demands on you is actually the building regulations enforcing a standard of housing that the Dept. of Environment thinks is appropriate. It wasn't your AC who wrote the building regs, he's just advising you on how to meet them.

If you have problems with the building regulations you can thank any number of politicians and self-serving interest groups - but it's not your AC's fault.

My point regarding the cheapest quote is that if you were paying your AC or another AC for more of their time they might have spent more time investigating alternative ways of meeting the building regulations that you might have preferred. But when everyone is so wed to the idea of price anyone delivering a service has to reduce the amount of time they spend on projects to the minimum in order to get enough of them in the door to make ends meet.

Metric Tensor

sydthebeat wrote: »

if you refuse you comply with the legal requirements all the AC can do is refuse to certify

The AC is like the president in a way - no actual power and the only thing he can do to make a stand is not sign the form.

Mind you if legislation is terrible el presidente is not hung out to dry whereas the AC gets it in the neck if a build is dodgy regardless of who's fault it is!

stickybookmark

sydthebeat wrote: »

power? what power?

the only one with power to enforce building regulations is your local building control officer. Your AC has no power to enforce the regulations.

if you refuse you comply with the legal requirements all the AC can do is refuse to certify

Which means you can never sell your house. That's a big deal.
So they do have power!

stickybookmark

Metric Tensor wrote: »

whereas the AC gets it in the neck if a build is dodgy regardless of who's fault it is!

That was my understanding of an AC too - that they were tied to your house forever more, but I was subsequently told that's not the case. Once they walk away from the project if there are issues with the house in the future they are not held liable. Actually it was John Corless at his talk at the Self Build exhibition who said that (that they are not tied to the house forever)

Metric Tensor

If you don't build your house in accordance with the building regulations you will find it difficult to sell - this is regardless of whether you have an AC or not.

The only purpose for the AC is so that the government have someone to blame if they later get stuck with some sort of liability because of you ignoring the regulations.

Metric Tensor

stickybookmark wrote: »

Once they walk away from the project if there are issues with the house in the future they are not held liable.

He's 100% wrong there.

There is a statute of limitations which might give some protection to the AC after 6 years.