STEM

Is there a bit of an obsession with STEM ( science technology engineering and maths ) A huge amount of media commentators moaning about the low level of student doing higher level maths, not enough student studying STEM subjects, science and technology is going to save the economy plus they are the route to all riches in a career and so on. There is even an implied assumption that Irish secondary student often haven't got what it takes to study STEM subjects at a high enough level.

Its like a fashion or something at the moment.

I am not saying they are not important they clearly are but in a balanced way.

kneemos

There is indeed.

They lost me when numbers changed to letters...OK then?

Jesus Wept

The coding thing has jumped the shark imo, see it everywhere, bank ads, people I know who have never had an interest in tech starting degrees to learn code.

We can't all be codin' lads.

Telling students what they should study by media commentators who most likely never did higher level maths themselves, but are very willing to tell student where they are going wrong.

stevedublin

kneemos wrote: »

OK then?

=6

GLaDOS

mariaalice wrote: »

( science technology engendering and maths )

Maybe it's the engendering that's the problem

ScienceNerd

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Maybe it's the engendering that's the problem

My husband is an engineer

whatdoicare

It wasn't encouraged in our school (all girls, convent nonsense) there was one girl in my year who wanted to be a particular type of scientist and she needed all the science subjects for her leaving plus higher level maths. The classes were timed so awkwardly for her or just not available that she ended up just doing the stupid subjects like all of us plus Biology and her folks then had to fork out a fortune so she could do Chemistry, Physics and higher maths outside of the school. It was a total pain in the arse for her.

I wanted to do technical drawing and coding but neither was available to me (our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking) and my folks couldn't afford to send me to outside classes, we were being trained to be nurses, teachers, house wives and maybe beauticians, anything outside of that was foreign thinking to them.

I'm pretty sure things haven't changed since I've left, judging by what my cousin, who also needs all the science subjects, is going through. So I'd say, unless you really, really wanted it and your folks could afford it, then STEM isn't going to a typical combination for Irish kids,well, girls anyway.

GLaDOS

whatdoicare wrote: »

It wasn't encouraged in our school (all girls, convent nonsense) there was one girl in my year who wanted to be a particular type of scientist and she needed all the science subjects for her leaving plus higher level maths. The classes were timed so awkwardly for her or just not available that she ended up just doing the stupid subjects like all of us plus Biology and her folks then had to fork out a fortune so she could do Chemistry, Physics and higher maths outside of the school. It was a total pain in the arse for her.

I wanted to do technical drawing and coding but neither was available to me (our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking) and my folks couldn't afford to send me to outside classes, we were being trained to be nurses, teachers, house wives and maybe beauticians, anything outside of that was foreign thinking to them.

I'm pretty sure things haven't changed since I've left, judging by what my cousin, who also needs all the science subjects, is going through. So I'd say, unless you really, really wanted it and your folks could afford it, then STEM isn't going to a typical combination for Irish kids,well, girls anyway.

I imagine it's the exception, rather than the rule, but in my experience the number of women in biology tends to equal, if not outnumber, that of men. Certainly from what I've observed from demonstrating biology labs in Maynooth, there's comfortably more women undergrads.

That said, I'd guess biology has significantly more uptake amongst women in general compared to the likes of maths, physics and engineering? I could be wrong though.

kneemos

The Rodgers wrote: »

The coding thing has jumped the shark imo, see it everywhere, bank ads, people I know who have never had an interest in tech starting degrees to learn code.

We can't all be codin' lads.

A nation of coders and nobody to wire a plug.

ZeroThreat

whatdoicare wrote: »

It wasn't encouraged in our school (all girls, convent nonsense) there was one girl in my year who wanted to be a particular type of scientist and she needed all the science subjects for her leaving plus higher level maths. The classes were timed so awkwardly for her or just not available that she ended up just doing the stupid subjects like all of us plus Biology and her folks then had to fork out a fortune so she could do Chemistry, Physics and higher maths outside of the school. It was a total pain in the arse for her.

I wanted to do technical drawing and coding but neither was available to me (our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking) and my folks couldn't afford to send me to outside classes, we were being trained to be nurses, teachers, house wives and maybe beauticians, anything outside of that was foreign thinking to them.

I'm pretty sure things haven't changed since I've left, judging by what my cousin, who also needs all the science subjects, is going through. So I'd say, unless you really, really wanted it and your folks could afford it, then STEM isn't going to a typical combination for Irish kids,well, girls anyway.

That sounds familiar with regard to the science subjects. I wanted to study physics & chemistry but it was only possible to choose 1 from the 3 and then subjects I didn't want to do such as business organisation & history.
The school (on the Long Mile road) shall remain nameless.

This was all about 20 years ago so hopefully there's more flexibility the choices available these days.

I do think student should study a broad general science course up to junior cert but after that it up the student to make the choice.

I don't know if this is unusual or not but I went to secondary school in the 70s the usual girls convent school and I got an excellent but very academic education. I am always a bit surprised when I meet an adult who has been through secondary school who does not know what a simple equations is let alone how to solve one its the most simple of maths.

zeffabelli

I've had to supplement my boy's education with science outside of school. I find the curriculum more humanities biased.

Coding is only a small little detail in the wider wonders of the marvel of science and technology.

Technologies are the prophets of science and its practical arm. But innovation is the second step after creativity in the process of inventions and progress.

Math is the language of science, until we have teachers who can impart the love, and demonstrate the wonders, no one will be interested.

The creativity and wonder starts in science.

Education needs an overhaul.

SEPT 23 1989

The Irish brain is more suited to music,poetry and dance

tritium

whatdoicare wrote: »

It wasn't encouraged in our school (all girls, convent nonsense) there was one girl in my year who wanted to be a particular type of scientist and she needed all the science subjects for her leaving plus higher level maths. The classes were timed so awkwardly for her or just not available that she ended up just doing the stupid subjects like all of us plus Biology and her folks then had to fork out a fortune so she could do Chemistry, Physics and higher maths outside of the school. It was a total pain in the arse for her.

I wanted to do technical drawing and coding but neither was available to me (our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking) and my folks couldn't afford to send me to outside classes, we were being trained to be nurses, teachers, house wives and maybe beauticians, anything outside of that was foreign thinking to them.

I'm pretty sure things haven't changed since I've left, judging by what my cousin, who also needs all the science subjects, is going through. So I'd say, unless you really, really wanted it and your folks could afford it, then STEM isn't going to a typical combination for Irish kids,well, girls anyway.

I'm not sure its been particularly encouraged for boys or girls outside of schools withe the resources to offer s very broad subject choice. Back in the day (few years ago now) my school let one teacher refuse to cover computers, cut swathes of the honours maths course out (couldn't be bothered scheduling enough class time) and scheduled subjects in a way that made it impossible to do a full range of science and quantitative subjects - they didn't even offer technical drawing or applied math. In spite of that I know half a dozen engineers and a few mathsgrads from my year. This was a boys school in a working class part of Dublin btw.

tritium

zeffabelli wrote: »

I've had to supplement my boy's education with science outside of school. I find the curriculum more humanities biased.

Coding is only a small little detail in the wider wonders of the marvel of science and technology.

Technologies are the prophets of science and its practical arm. But innovation is the second step after creativity in the process of inventions and progress.

Math is the language of science, until we have teachers who can impart the love, and demonstrate the wonders, no one will be interested.

The creativity and wonder starts in science.

Education needs an overhaul.

This, absolutely this. Quit all the ministerial soundbytes that pander to various agenda groups and media outlets and just overhaul the education system to give all kids a fair chance. Stop worrying about social engineering and instead give them all opportunities to learn and be interested in what they learn.

smash

mariaalice wrote: »

I am always a bit surprised when I meet an adult who has been through secondary school who does not know what a simple equations is let alone how to solve one its the most simple of maths.

Lets face it, computers have in some senses dumbed people down. A skill like this might be seen as redundant to most because a computer can just do it for you. Or your phone, or even your watch...

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I do worry a touch about all the people going in to do computer science/coding (shudder) at the moment. At the moment we have a skills shortage in the area but how long will it last if the intake continues at its current pace? I'm a bit young to remember the last dotcom bubble burst but are we heading that way again? Any more experienced heads recognize signs from the last crash?

mickydoomsux

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The Irish brain is more suited to music,poetry and dance

All stuff with no intrinsic value? Great.

zeffabelli

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I do worry a touch about all the people going in to do computer science/coding (shudder) at the moment. At the moment we have a skills shortage in the area but how long will it last if the intake continues at its current pace? I'm a bit young to remember the last dotcom bubble burst but are we heading that way again? Any more experienced heads recognize signs from the last crash?

All this stuff can be outsourced and probably will be.

The creative, innovative mind cannot be outsourced, indiginous talent in the maths and sciences needs nurturing and cultivation.

They are focusing on developing the wrong areas in my opinion.

Sleepy

Well, lets face it, at the very least, a degree in a STEM subject will teach one to be highly numerate, literate and capable of organised thought. Even if, and it's a massive if, careers in Science, IT and engineering dry up in Ireland, aren't they going to be more employable than someone with a degree in the liberal arts?

While a certain level of graduates will always be required in the Liberal Arts, I think we provide far too many of such places in our third level institutions simply because they're cheap to teach.

Spunge

The Rodgers wrote: »

The coding thing has jumped the shark imo, see it everywhere, bank ads, people I know who have never had an interest in tech starting degrees to learn code.

We can't all be codin' lads.

yeah it was a well kept secret now every **** knows the score.

jimgoose

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I do worry a touch about all the people going in to do computer science/coding (shudder) at the moment. At the moment we have a skills shortage in the area but how long will it last if the intake continues at its current pace? I'm a bit young to remember the last dotcom bubble burst but are we heading that way again? Any more experienced heads recognize signs from the last crash?

In the old days, it was "eCommerce". In the new days, it's Social Media, meaning youngsters sharing photographs of their arse/vodka-and-red-bull/happy-slapping. Rather than everyone bulling to learn "Coding" and then go doing fcuk-knows-what at Google/Facebook/Twitter/Whatever, it would please me more to see a little more emphasis on trade apprenticeships, as well as traditional skills like blacksmithing, thatching, glass-blowing, etc.

jimgoose

Spunge wrote: »

yeah it was a well kept secret now every **** knows the score.

A lot of people think they know what computer programming is about, but it would probably surprise you how many ICT graduates I encounter these days who practically dream in Java/Python/C# and yet have no idea. :pac:

hardCopy

whatdoicare wrote: »

(our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking)

Your post has just triggered a suppressed memory.

We had this too, we had to keep the photocopy in a plastic pouch because it was really important to keep it safe for the whole term.

It's not new. Other societies have been at it for centuries. We should do what von Bismarck (Otto, not Aonghus) did in 19th century Prussia and was then carried through to wider Germany.

He prioritised STEM education over the humanities, and created a legacy in German education that has survived to this day.

I believe that we should do the same by prioritising STEM in schools, and seek government and private scholarships, and free fees, for STEM degrees at third level, which should also receive priority resources.

Fees for entry into the humanities (from which I am excluding mathematics) should be maintained, although the numbers of places available should be reviewed, especially for certain courses delivering a weak societal return.

I have no problem with people studying film, drama, archaeology, or women's studies. Far from it, I think it sounds like a marvellous idea. But at your own expense.

whatdoicare

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I imagine it's the exception, rather than the rule, but in my experience the number of women in biology tends to equal, if not outnumber, that of men. Certainly from what I've observed from demonstrating biology labs in Maynooth, there's comfortably more women undergrads.

That said, I'd guess biology has significantly more uptake amongst women in general compared to the likes of maths, physics and engineering? I could be wrong though.

Like I mentioned, Biology is actively encouraged in girls schools (you need it to become a nurse and to a lesser extent a beautician) while Chemistry, Higher level maths,engineering and Physics are not encouraged, usually not available or impossible to study all of them together.

I studied Biology, I wasn't given a choice, it was either that or Home economics and I was useless at that. At least I stood a chance with Biology.

Physics and Chemistry weren't even available to me as there wasn't even a teacher to teach it. We had three Biology teachers and no Chemistry or Physics teachers, isn't that insane!

Paramite Pie

If there is still a poor uptake in these subjects then it we ought to continue banging on about it...

I imagine programming courses have a high fail/drop out rate, so I still think we should try to introduce the subject into more schools as preparation as well as to discourage those who discover they hate programming so they don't waste money/time dropping out and might choose something else.

wretcheddomain

Paramite Pie wrote: »

I imagine programming courses have a high fail/drop out rate, so I still think we should try to introduce the subject into more schools as preparation as well as to discourage those who discover they hate programming so they don't waste money/time dropping out and might choose something else.

Why can't they introduce an ECDL-equivalent of coding, along with an advanced ECDL in aspects of coding - if this were subsidised and promoted by the schools, I would imagine many students would take it up.

rainbow kirby

Girls schools are still dreadful at encouraging the hard sciences. My old school didn't replace their one physics teacher when he retired about 5 years after I did my Leaving Cert, and they were very reluctant to let girls in my sister's year (Leaving Cert 2011) take 2 sciences. Meanwhile, all the help in the world given to business, art, music etc. :rolleyes: I will never send any future daughter of mine to an all-girls Catholic school.

Maths needs to be pushed even harder if you ask me - a good foundation at secondary and early university level opens a lot of doors and it forms part of a good general education. For some reason, quite a few Irish people seem to be proud of their mathematical illiteracy and it's a bit ridiculous.

Supergurrier

Back in the 90's in the secondary school I attended for my 3 junior cert years if you wanted to do honours maths you had to do the class during your lunch.

Bleurgh

artanevilla

I'm doing a STEM course. There was a (supposedly) big STEM recruitment fair on in the RDS last week, with about five companies there and none from my sector. Take from that what you will.

denhaagenite

I went into a convent secondary school around 97/ 98 I guess. The junior cycle was fine but the senior cycle was a joke. No tech drawing, no applied maths. There were about 7 maths classes- 1 honours with 60 students, 6 pass with between 12 and 15 students each. The honours maths teacher bullied people out of the class until there were only 15 - 20 girls left. She was unwilling and unable to teach, and the school wanted "x" amount of A1s in the subject to give the impression that they could teach it. The only way to do this was to only give the people who were gifted in the subject the opportunity to sit the exam. In addition, there were other teachers who would have been much more suitable to teach Honours Maths than this wagon, but due to her time in the school and the politics, they weren't given the opportunity. In the 5 years I was in that school, she went on maternity leave no less than 4 times. I've spoken to my sister who is 5 years younger than me and it was pretty much the same story in her time (apart from the maternity leave I hope :eek:).

I left school without a Leaving Certificate, due to family circumstances but probably more to do with the complete lack of interest from the school in educating me. I returned to a PLC a few years later, receiving an all honours Leaving Certificate, worked abroad for a few years and I'm currently doing a Science degree. Take that, Irish education system.

I think the biggest problem with education in Ireland is the lack of professionalism. People went into teaching, primary and secondary, because of holidays and the job-for-life status, not because of their love for educating. The terms need to be longer, from primary right up until third level. This rubbish about the ASTI not wanting to correct some of the Junior Cert stuff is quite frankly rubbish. If they are so unprofessional that they can't be trusted to correct students work, have it submitted to a central database under student codes and have an allocated number of anonymous papers that they have to correct. They should all be correcting papers, not just the ones who are trying to make extra money. There should be no extra money for it either, no other profession has 4 months holidays as standard.

The only people who should be teaching STEM subjects are the ones who are able to teach it, ie people with STEM degrees and a further education of some sort in education itself. STEM might be a new term but they are not new subjects and the only reason they seem more important now is because they were never really afforded any importance in the past. They were important then, they are important now and they will be more important in the future. In a year I will be a STEM graduate off my own back because I had the mental and financial resources to get there by myself. Others who are more suited to it (and gifted at it) than I may get lost and that is a loss to all of us.

zeffabelli

Sleepy wrote: »

Well, lets face it, at the very least, a degree in a STEM subject will teach one to be highly numerate, literate and capable of organised thought. Even if, and it's a massive if, careers in Science, IT and engineering dry up in Ireland, aren't they going to be more employable than someone with a degree in the liberal arts?

While a certain level of graduates will always be required in the Liberal Arts, I think we provide far too many of such places in our third level institutions simply because they're cheap to teach.

Someone who is not a systemiser is going to suck at most levels of IT.

Most left brain products will be outsourced to Bangladesh.

A lot of people will arts degrees are employed and employable. Your perspective is myopic.

What you are trying to create here is an aspergers nation. (Silicon valley.)

Science and technology is about wonder...and that is what the educators should be imparting.

denhaagenite

zeffabelli wrote: »

A lot of people will arts degrees are employed and employable. Your perspective is myopic.

What you are trying to create here is an aspergers nation. (Silicon valley.)

Science and technology is about wonder...and that is what the educators should be imparting.

I do think there are too many mix ups between what should be Science and what should be Arts subjects though. Life Sciences should include Law and Psychology. I'm doing a semester in Ireland and Applied Psychology is an Arts subject, which I really think is ridiculous, especially when they expect us to write exams and essays under the Science format. I'm doing a Social Science module which is being taught like history.

Science is about more than technology and medicine, it's about being able to produce hypotheses that are repeatable. Law, for example, sets precedent and thus must be usable for other similar circumstances. That should be the focus.

zeffabelli

zeffabelli wrote: »

What you are trying to create here is an aspergers nation. (Silicon valley.)

Not only is there is an implicit autism put-down in your comment, you seem to be under an impression that scientifically-inclined, and numerate individuals, tend to be autistic.

Really now? Aspergers rates are probably less than 10 per 10,000. Aspergers is an incredibly rare syndrome, even among highly-numerate individuals.

It's bad enough making sneering remarks about those who actually have Aspergers, but insinuating that numerate people also probably have Aspergers suggests you need to catch-up on some reading skills yourself.

rainbow kirby

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Girls schools are still dreadful at encouraging the hard sciences. My old school didn't replace their one physics teacher when he retired about 5 years after I did my Leaving Cert, and they were very reluctant to let girls in my sister's year (Leaving Cert 2011) take 2 sciences. Meanwhile, all the help in the world given to business, art, music etc. :rolleyes: I will never send any future daughter of mine to an all-girls Catholic school.

Maths needs to be pushed even harder if you ask me - a good foundation at secondary and early university level opens a lot of doors and it forms part of a good general education. For some reason, quite a few Irish people seem to be proud of their mathematical illiteracy and it's a bit ridiculous.

While I agree with most of that why push a subject on someone who does not have the talent, aptitude or interested in the subject?

I don't understand the attitude of being proud of mathematical ignorance either.

zeffabelli

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Not only is there is an implicit autism put-down in your comment, you seem to be under an impression that scientifically-inclined, and numerate individuals, tend to be autistic.

Really now? Aspergers rates are probably less than 10 per 10,000. Aspergers is an incredibly rare syndrome, even among highly-numerate individuals.

It's bad enough making sneering remarks about those who actually have Aspergers, but insinuating that numerate people also probably have Aspergers suggests you need to catch-up on some reading skills yourself.

http://gawker.com/5885196/the-tech-industrys-asperger-problem-affliction-or-insult

http://www.kennethrobersonphd.com/silicon-valley-breeding-ground-aspergers-syndrome/

http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html

Here is some reading for you.

denhaagenite

mariaalice wrote: »

While I agree with most of that why push a subject on someone who does not have the talent, aptitude or interested in the subject?

How do you know if they do or not if the playing field isn't level for boys and girls?

c_man

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Why can't they introduce an ECDL-equivalent of coding, along with an advanced ECDL in aspects of coding - if this were subsidised and promoted by the schools, I would imagine many students would take it up.

God no. I can only imagine the complete balls up that the government would make of that.

The Coder Dojos and the like are the way to go. Give kids a chance with it, see who likes it and help them further an interest in the area.

denhaagenite

c_man wrote: »

God no. I can only imagine the complete balls up that the government would make of that.

The Coder Dojos and the like are the way to go. Give kids a chance with it, see who likes it and help them further an interest in the area.

Agreed, plus the people involved are doing it for a love of their skill and a wish to impart it. For free. Open source is huge in technology, it's a culture at this stage.

c_man

denhaagenite wrote: »

Agreed, plus the people involved are doing it for a love of their skill and a wish to impart it. For free.

Exactly, plus they actually tend to know a thing or two from the real world (lots being software engineers etc day to day). Imagine having people in it only for the paycheck, demanding to go on certified courses to get a piece of paper saying they can teach for-loops in C# (and of course the whole stack would be Microsoft specific. Just as the EDCL was hijacked.)

zeffabelli

denhaagenite wrote: »

Agreed, plus the people involved are doing it for a love of their skill and a wish to impart it. For free. Open source is huge in technology, it's a culture at this stage.

Back in the dinosaur ages, we had to learn computer languages like basic.

NO ONE has done anything with it since!! There isn't one programmer in my entire alumni base.

denhaagenite

It's just a real pity that there aren't other initiatives like Coder Dojo in other areas of STEM. There are literary, music, food etc etc festivals and things everywhere for children but you don't see that done with medicine and engineering.

Sleepy

zeffabelli wrote: »

Someone who is not a systemiser is going to suck at most levels of IT.

Most left brain products will be outsourced to Bangladesh.

A lot of people will arts degrees are employed and employable. Your perspective is myopic.

What you are trying to create here is an aspergers nation. (Silicon valley.)

Science and technology is about wonder...and that is what the educators should be imparting.

I never said arts graduates were unemployable, I said I believe our universities create too many of them. It's understandable as it's a lot cheaper to cram 400 students into a lecture hall to study Sociology, English Literature, Irish, History, Geography etc. than it is to provide the necessary lab facilities to educate STEM students.

The reality is that most Arts graduates don't end up working in careers that reflect their degrees. That to me, seems rather a waste of a degree, surely it would be better to educate people in something that they can actually find gainful employment in rather than having a disproportionate amount of the population with a third level qualification in interesting, yet financially worthless subjects?

As long as we're encouraging people to chase their dreams, no matter how unsuited they are to them, I'm not sure a market lead, points based approach to education is appropriate. Our economy can only ever support a given number of TV presenters, journalists, musicians, PR consultants, Irish teachers, actors, social media "gurus", sociology and politics lecturers, fashion designers, historians, archaeologists, social policy advocates etc. yet we seem happy to waste public money funding more places on such courses than there will ever be jobs for such graduates.

Our society has become far too aspirational when it comes to career choices imo. Few dream of working in software development, implementation and support, Office Administration, Quality Assurance, etc. Yet these "mundane" jobs are the ones our economy can support. We're not all special snowflakes that get to work fulfilling jobs, we don't all get to lead dream lives where we can work a few hours a day in a gourmet coffee shop wearing a designer business casual ensemble before picking up the kids from the childminders in our 4x4 to take them for a three week "educational experience" in South East Asia.

tritium

denhaagenite wrote: »

How do you know if they do or not if the playing field isn't level for boys and girls?

Why are you worried about the boy/ girl split when there's a wider problem of subject choice in under resourced schools for both genders?

denhaagenite

Sleepy wrote: »

I never said arts graduates were unemployable, I said I believe our universities create too many of them. It's understandable as it's a lot cheaper to cram 400 students into a lecture hall to study Sociology, English Literature, Irish, History, Geography etc. than it is to provide the necessary lab facilities to educate STEM students.

I agree wholeheartedly, the university I'm in has far too many Arts courses and I really struggle to see how anyone is going to translate it into gainful employment. However I think there are two problems- number one is that they are not suited to university education, they should be doing something else and that something else is simply not available in Ireland. Not everyone needs a degree. Number two is that they aren't given all the necessary information to figure out what they are best at, what they are suited to and what they can sustainably do as a career.

denhaagenite

tritium wrote: »

Why are you worried about the boy/ girl split when there's a wider problem of subject choice in under resourced schools for both genders?

I'm not worried about a boy/ girl split, I'm worried about Tech Drawing/ Applied Maths only being available to boys who would possibly be better suited to Home Ec and vice versa. To be honest I think single sex education should be completely abolished. I'm talking about people who would be highly valuable being left behind, not any specific gender.

zeffabelli

Sleepy wrote: »

I never said arts graduates were unemployable, I said I believe our universities create too many of them. It's understandable as it's a lot cheaper to cram 400 students into a lecture hall to study Sociology, English Literature, Irish, History, Geography etc. than it is to provide the necessary lab facilities to educate STEM students.

The reality is that most Arts graduates don't end up working in careers that reflect their degrees. That to me, seems rather a waste of a degree, surely it would be better to educate people in something that they can actually find gainful employment in rather than having a disproportionate amount of the population with a third level qualification in interesting, yet financially worthless subjects?

As long as we're encouraging people to chase their dreams, no matter how unsuited they are to them, I'm not sure a market lead, points based approach to education is appropriate. Our economy can only ever support a given number of TV presenters, journalists, musicians, PR consultants, Irish teachers, actors, social media "gurus", sociology and politics lecturers, fashion designers, historians, archaeologists, social policy advocates etc. yet we seem happy to waste public money funding more places on such courses than there will ever be jobs for such graduates.

Our society has become far too aspirational when it comes to career choices imo. Few dream of working in software development, implementation and support, Office Administration, Quality Assurance, etc. Yet these "mundane" jobs are the ones our economy can support. We're not all special snowflakes that get to work fulfilling jobs, we don't all get to lead dream lives where we can work a few hours a day in a gourmet coffee shop wearing a designer business casual ensemble before picking up the kids from the childminders in our 4x4 to take them for a three week "educational experience" in South East Asia.

You are probably right, but at present isnt this all tied into a point system with the LC also?

Industries change too. In 15 years we don't know what the market will demand? We don't know that all the techie jobs wont be outsourced to India...

We just don't know.

IF the issue is one of "public money," maybe a better idea is to privatise third level...

Or get back to a place where the BA is no longer a universal default setting and we see things like more specific trade schools?

It is fashion though, chefs are highly employable in fact most of them could have the choice of two or three jobs plus its well paid once you have experience, yet you don't see the same emphasise on training more chefs in the way that IT is lauded, revered and pushed as a career choice.

zeffabelli

mariaalice wrote: »

It is fashion though, chefs are highly employable in fact most of them could have the choice of two or three jobs plus its well paid once you have experience, yet you don't see the same emphasise on training more chefs in the way that IT is lauded, revered and pushed as a career choice.

If they increase the supply of techies, there is more competition and employers can pay less because it becomes less specialised.

Subjects do go through fashions. Once upon a time it was learning foreign languages.