STEM

Is there a bit of an obsession with STEM ( science technology engineering and maths ) A huge amount of media commentators moaning about the low level of student doing higher level maths, not enough student studying STEM subjects, science and technology is going to save the economy plus they are the route to all riches in a career and so on. There is even an implied assumption that Irish secondary student often haven't got what it takes to study STEM subjects at a high enough level.

Its like a fashion or something at the moment.

I am not saying they are not important they clearly are but in a balanced way.

kneemos

There is indeed.

They lost me when numbers changed to letters...OK then?

Jesus Wept

The coding thing has jumped the shark imo, see it everywhere, bank ads, people I know who have never had an interest in tech starting degrees to learn code.

We can't all be codin' lads.

Telling students what they should study by media commentators who most likely never did higher level maths themselves, but are very willing to tell student where they are going wrong.

stevedublin

kneemos wrote: »

OK then?

=6

GLaDOS

mariaalice wrote: »

( science technology engendering and maths )

Maybe it's the engendering that's the problem

ScienceNerd

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Maybe it's the engendering that's the problem

My husband is an engineer

whatdoicare

It wasn't encouraged in our school (all girls, convent nonsense) there was one girl in my year who wanted to be a particular type of scientist and she needed all the science subjects for her leaving plus higher level maths. The classes were timed so awkwardly for her or just not available that she ended up just doing the stupid subjects like all of us plus Biology and her folks then had to fork out a fortune so she could do Chemistry, Physics and higher maths outside of the school. It was a total pain in the arse for her.

I wanted to do technical drawing and coding but neither was available to me (our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking) and my folks couldn't afford to send me to outside classes, we were being trained to be nurses, teachers, house wives and maybe beauticians, anything outside of that was foreign thinking to them.

I'm pretty sure things haven't changed since I've left, judging by what my cousin, who also needs all the science subjects, is going through. So I'd say, unless you really, really wanted it and your folks could afford it, then STEM isn't going to a typical combination for Irish kids,well, girls anyway.

GLaDOS

whatdoicare wrote: »

It wasn't encouraged in our school (all girls, convent nonsense) there was one girl in my year who wanted to be a particular type of scientist and she needed all the science subjects for her leaving plus higher level maths. The classes were timed so awkwardly for her or just not available that she ended up just doing the stupid subjects like all of us plus Biology and her folks then had to fork out a fortune so she could do Chemistry, Physics and higher maths outside of the school. It was a total pain in the arse for her.

I wanted to do technical drawing and coding but neither was available to me (our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking) and my folks couldn't afford to send me to outside classes, we were being trained to be nurses, teachers, house wives and maybe beauticians, anything outside of that was foreign thinking to them.

I'm pretty sure things haven't changed since I've left, judging by what my cousin, who also needs all the science subjects, is going through. So I'd say, unless you really, really wanted it and your folks could afford it, then STEM isn't going to a typical combination for Irish kids,well, girls anyway.

I imagine it's the exception, rather than the rule, but in my experience the number of women in biology tends to equal, if not outnumber, that of men. Certainly from what I've observed from demonstrating biology labs in Maynooth, there's comfortably more women undergrads.

That said, I'd guess biology has significantly more uptake amongst women in general compared to the likes of maths, physics and engineering? I could be wrong though.

kneemos

The Rodgers wrote: »

The coding thing has jumped the shark imo, see it everywhere, bank ads, people I know who have never had an interest in tech starting degrees to learn code.

We can't all be codin' lads.

A nation of coders and nobody to wire a plug.

ZeroThreat

whatdoicare wrote: »

It wasn't encouraged in our school (all girls, convent nonsense) there was one girl in my year who wanted to be a particular type of scientist and she needed all the science subjects for her leaving plus higher level maths. The classes were timed so awkwardly for her or just not available that she ended up just doing the stupid subjects like all of us plus Biology and her folks then had to fork out a fortune so she could do Chemistry, Physics and higher maths outside of the school. It was a total pain in the arse for her.

I wanted to do technical drawing and coding but neither was available to me (our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking) and my folks couldn't afford to send me to outside classes, we were being trained to be nurses, teachers, house wives and maybe beauticians, anything outside of that was foreign thinking to them.

I'm pretty sure things haven't changed since I've left, judging by what my cousin, who also needs all the science subjects, is going through. So I'd say, unless you really, really wanted it and your folks could afford it, then STEM isn't going to a typical combination for Irish kids,well, girls anyway.

That sounds familiar with regard to the science subjects. I wanted to study physics & chemistry but it was only possible to choose 1 from the 3 and then subjects I didn't want to do such as business organisation & history.
The school (on the Long Mile road) shall remain nameless.

This was all about 20 years ago so hopefully there's more flexibility the choices available these days.

I do think student should study a broad general science course up to junior cert but after that it up the student to make the choice.

I don't know if this is unusual or not but I went to secondary school in the 70s the usual girls convent school and I got an excellent but very academic education. I am always a bit surprised when I meet an adult who has been through secondary school who does not know what a simple equations is let alone how to solve one its the most simple of maths.

zeffabelli

I've had to supplement my boy's education with science outside of school. I find the curriculum more humanities biased.

Coding is only a small little detail in the wider wonders of the marvel of science and technology.

Technologies are the prophets of science and its practical arm. But innovation is the second step after creativity in the process of inventions and progress.

Math is the language of science, until we have teachers who can impart the love, and demonstrate the wonders, no one will be interested.

The creativity and wonder starts in science.

Education needs an overhaul.

SEPT 23 1989

The Irish brain is more suited to music,poetry and dance

tritium

whatdoicare wrote: »

It wasn't encouraged in our school (all girls, convent nonsense) there was one girl in my year who wanted to be a particular type of scientist and she needed all the science subjects for her leaving plus higher level maths. The classes were timed so awkwardly for her or just not available that she ended up just doing the stupid subjects like all of us plus Biology and her folks then had to fork out a fortune so she could do Chemistry, Physics and higher maths outside of the school. It was a total pain in the arse for her.

I wanted to do technical drawing and coding but neither was available to me (our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking) and my folks couldn't afford to send me to outside classes, we were being trained to be nurses, teachers, house wives and maybe beauticians, anything outside of that was foreign thinking to them.

I'm pretty sure things haven't changed since I've left, judging by what my cousin, who also needs all the science subjects, is going through. So I'd say, unless you really, really wanted it and your folks could afford it, then STEM isn't going to a typical combination for Irish kids,well, girls anyway.

I'm not sure its been particularly encouraged for boys or girls outside of schools withe the resources to offer s very broad subject choice. Back in the day (few years ago now) my school let one teacher refuse to cover computers, cut swathes of the honours maths course out (couldn't be bothered scheduling enough class time) and scheduled subjects in a way that made it impossible to do a full range of science and quantitative subjects - they didn't even offer technical drawing or applied math. In spite of that I know half a dozen engineers and a few mathsgrads from my year. This was a boys school in a working class part of Dublin btw.

tritium

zeffabelli wrote: »

I've had to supplement my boy's education with science outside of school. I find the curriculum more humanities biased.

Coding is only a small little detail in the wider wonders of the marvel of science and technology.

Technologies are the prophets of science and its practical arm. But innovation is the second step after creativity in the process of inventions and progress.

Math is the language of science, until we have teachers who can impart the love, and demonstrate the wonders, no one will be interested.

The creativity and wonder starts in science.

Education needs an overhaul.

This, absolutely this. Quit all the ministerial soundbytes that pander to various agenda groups and media outlets and just overhaul the education system to give all kids a fair chance. Stop worrying about social engineering and instead give them all opportunities to learn and be interested in what they learn.

smash

mariaalice wrote: »

I am always a bit surprised when I meet an adult who has been through secondary school who does not know what a simple equations is let alone how to solve one its the most simple of maths.

Lets face it, computers have in some senses dumbed people down. A skill like this might be seen as redundant to most because a computer can just do it for you. Or your phone, or even your watch...

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I do worry a touch about all the people going in to do computer science/coding (shudder) at the moment. At the moment we have a skills shortage in the area but how long will it last if the intake continues at its current pace? I'm a bit young to remember the last dotcom bubble burst but are we heading that way again? Any more experienced heads recognize signs from the last crash?

mickydoomsux

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The Irish brain is more suited to music,poetry and dance

All stuff with no intrinsic value? Great.

zeffabelli

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I do worry a touch about all the people going in to do computer science/coding (shudder) at the moment. At the moment we have a skills shortage in the area but how long will it last if the intake continues at its current pace? I'm a bit young to remember the last dotcom bubble burst but are we heading that way again? Any more experienced heads recognize signs from the last crash?

All this stuff can be outsourced and probably will be.

The creative, innovative mind cannot be outsourced, indiginous talent in the maths and sciences needs nurturing and cultivation.

They are focusing on developing the wrong areas in my opinion.

Sleepy

Well, lets face it, at the very least, a degree in a STEM subject will teach one to be highly numerate, literate and capable of organised thought. Even if, and it's a massive if, careers in Science, IT and engineering dry up in Ireland, aren't they going to be more employable than someone with a degree in the liberal arts?

While a certain level of graduates will always be required in the Liberal Arts, I think we provide far too many of such places in our third level institutions simply because they're cheap to teach.

Spunge

The Rodgers wrote: »

The coding thing has jumped the shark imo, see it everywhere, bank ads, people I know who have never had an interest in tech starting degrees to learn code.

We can't all be codin' lads.

yeah it was a well kept secret now every **** knows the score.

jimgoose

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I do worry a touch about all the people going in to do computer science/coding (shudder) at the moment. At the moment we have a skills shortage in the area but how long will it last if the intake continues at its current pace? I'm a bit young to remember the last dotcom bubble burst but are we heading that way again? Any more experienced heads recognize signs from the last crash?

In the old days, it was "eCommerce". In the new days, it's Social Media, meaning youngsters sharing photographs of their arse/vodka-and-red-bull/happy-slapping. Rather than everyone bulling to learn "Coding" and then go doing fcuk-knows-what at Google/Facebook/Twitter/Whatever, it would please me more to see a little more emphasis on trade apprenticeships, as well as traditional skills like blacksmithing, thatching, glass-blowing, etc.

jimgoose

Spunge wrote: »

yeah it was a well kept secret now every **** knows the score.

A lot of people think they know what computer programming is about, but it would probably surprise you how many ICT graduates I encounter these days who practically dream in Java/Python/C# and yet have no idea. :pac:

hardCopy

whatdoicare wrote: »

(our computer class was learning the qwerty keyboard on a photocopied page, no joking)

Your post has just triggered a suppressed memory.

We had this too, we had to keep the photocopy in a plastic pouch because it was really important to keep it safe for the whole term.

It's not new. Other societies have been at it for centuries. We should do what von Bismarck (Otto, not Aonghus) did in 19th century Prussia and was then carried through to wider Germany.

He prioritised STEM education over the humanities, and created a legacy in German education that has survived to this day.

I believe that we should do the same by prioritising STEM in schools, and seek government and private scholarships, and free fees, for STEM degrees at third level, which should also receive priority resources.

Fees for entry into the humanities (from which I am excluding mathematics) should be maintained, although the numbers of places available should be reviewed, especially for certain courses delivering a weak societal return.

I have no problem with people studying film, drama, archaeology, or women's studies. Far from it, I think it sounds like a marvellous idea. But at your own expense.

whatdoicare

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I imagine it's the exception, rather than the rule, but in my experience the number of women in biology tends to equal, if not outnumber, that of men. Certainly from what I've observed from demonstrating biology labs in Maynooth, there's comfortably more women undergrads.

That said, I'd guess biology has significantly more uptake amongst women in general compared to the likes of maths, physics and engineering? I could be wrong though.

Like I mentioned, Biology is actively encouraged in girls schools (you need it to become a nurse and to a lesser extent a beautician) while Chemistry, Higher level maths,engineering and Physics are not encouraged, usually not available or impossible to study all of them together.

I studied Biology, I wasn't given a choice, it was either that or Home economics and I was useless at that. At least I stood a chance with Biology.

Physics and Chemistry weren't even available to me as there wasn't even a teacher to teach it. We had three Biology teachers and no Chemistry or Physics teachers, isn't that insane!

Paramite Pie

If there is still a poor uptake in these subjects then it we ought to continue banging on about it...

I imagine programming courses have a high fail/drop out rate, so I still think we should try to introduce the subject into more schools as preparation as well as to discourage those who discover they hate programming so they don't waste money/time dropping out and might choose something else.

wretcheddomain

Paramite Pie wrote: »

I imagine programming courses have a high fail/drop out rate, so I still think we should try to introduce the subject into more schools as preparation as well as to discourage those who discover they hate programming so they don't waste money/time dropping out and might choose something else.

Why can't they introduce an ECDL-equivalent of coding, along with an advanced ECDL in aspects of coding - if this were subsidised and promoted by the schools, I would imagine many students would take it up.

rainbow kirby

Girls schools are still dreadful at encouraging the hard sciences. My old school didn't replace their one physics teacher when he retired about 5 years after I did my Leaving Cert, and they were very reluctant to let girls in my sister's year (Leaving Cert 2011) take 2 sciences. Meanwhile, all the help in the world given to business, art, music etc. :rolleyes: I will never send any future daughter of mine to an all-girls Catholic school.

Maths needs to be pushed even harder if you ask me - a good foundation at secondary and early university level opens a lot of doors and it forms part of a good general education. For some reason, quite a few Irish people seem to be proud of their mathematical illiteracy and it's a bit ridiculous.

Supergurrier

Back in the 90's in the secondary school I attended for my 3 junior cert years if you wanted to do honours maths you had to do the class during your lunch.

Bleurgh