FTP to Social Welfare Card

Jamie2k9

Had a conversation with a family member today who recently visited a social welfare office to get the new ID cards. When asked what to do with FTP when it is received they were told you can bin it.

It is very irresponsible of the department to have such a policy in place as what it will lead to is significant increase in ID cards and passes in place until the full roll out has being completed. Are the department really that stupid and trustworthy or Irish people? There is going to be even more fraud as IE or bus companies are not going to check if passes are still validated.

Should I be surprised wtih the half arsed approach to the roll out....

IE should really demand better procedures in place for such replacements as the train is the lea\t likely place to get caught!

punisher5112

The Luas or train is the most possible place you will be caught.

They don't seem to care that this fraud is on going for years.

People copying passes, stealing them, using family members passes and passes they should not have as circumstances have changed and so on.

You can imagine anything and its likely happening.

Can't wait till new system is running and here is to the new checkers on db hopefully things will change.

mikemac1

Are the new SW cards smart?

So the owners will have to scan them on Dublin Bus like the rest of prepay users instead of flashing them to the driver?

At the current time I see the cards getting flashed

mickydoomsux

These things seem to be given out by the DSP like snuff at a wake. They aren't too worried about fraud.

foggy_lad

mikemac1 wrote: »

Are the new SW cards smart?

So the owners will have to scan them on Dublin Bus like the rest of prepay users instead of flashing them to the driver?

At the current time I see the cards getting flashed

At the moment and even after the full rollout the cards will not be/are not compatible with the leap card or other readers on public transport. It could be years later when the cards can be scanned by such readers on buses and at tram stops and train stations. The reason is possibly the sensitive information contained on the cards which would have to be protected from being accessed.

punisher5112

foggy_lad wrote: »

At the moment and even after the full rollout the cards will not be/are not compatible with the leap card or other readers on public transport. It could be years later when the cards can be scanned by such readers on buses and at tram stops and train stations. The reason is possibly the sensitive information contained on the cards which would have to be protected from being accessed.

They are testing some buses with them already and auto stage update will be coming in shortly.

goingnowhere

Once the IT is tested anyone holding a FTP will be required to present to the drivers machine for validation.

Free travel is a separate application on the card which leap can access. Leap has no access to any other feature of the card

On Irish Rail in suburban areas it will be tag on/off

Card is valid for 5 years and can be cancelled

Jamie2k9

The Luas or train is the most possible place you will be caught.

If you meet RPU yes however ticketing staff are like robots issuing tickets, they don't even both entering the numbers on passes. At least on the buses I have saw questions being asked etc especially if you have a second person.

Once the IT is tested anyone holding a FTP will be required to present to the drivers machine for validation.

Free travel is a separate application on the card which leap can access. Leap has no access to any other feature of the card

On Irish Rail in suburban areas it will be tag on/off

Card is valid for 5 years and can be cancelled

No excuse for it not to be tested and operational by now, more time wasting by the department...outside Leap zones whats the plan?

ailbheg

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Had a conversation with a family member today who recently visited a social welfare office to get the new ID cards. When asked what to do with FTP when it is received they were told you can bin it.

Have had inspectors on BE buses a couple of times recently and heard them asking passengers with the new cards if they had sent their old pass back, so it seems odd the social welfare office is telling them to bin them.

Hilly Bill

mikemac1 wrote: »

Are the new SW cards smart?

So the owners will have to scan them on Dublin Bus like the rest of prepay users instead of flashing them to the driver?

At the current time I see the cards getting flashed

Thats what will supposed to happen, but will lead to a lot of confusion and a lot of the cards will be damaged when someone tries to put them into the validators like the paper tickets.
Basically they will have to be used the same as the leap card.
Its silly that their old passes doesnt get taken off them when the new one gets issued.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

At the moment and even after the full rollout the cards will not be/are not compatible with the leap card or other readers on public transport. It could be years later when the cards can be scanned by such readers on buses and at tram stops and train stations. The reason is possibly the sensitive information contained on the cards which would have to be protected from being accessed.

They were supposed to go live so to speak this year. Its a bad move in my opinion as a holder wouldnt have to go near a ticket office to get a ticket, they can just walk through the barriers and lessens the chance of it being confiscated if its being used by someone else other than the owner.

Dravokivich

foggy_lad wrote: »

At the moment and even after the full rollout the cards will not be/are not compatible with the leap card or other readers on public transport. It could be years later when the cards can be scanned by such readers on buses and at tram stops and train stations. The reason is possibly the sensitive information contained on the cards which would have to be protected from being accessed.

Forget that they ever will be. They are 2 distinctly different things. And should be recognised as such. None of the validators on the buses or machines by the trainstations used with Leap Cards are "Leap" equipment. These new DSP passes should work with them and any delay, would be operator dependant, more so than Leap or the card itself.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

L1011

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats what will supposed to happen, but will lead to a lot of confusion and a lot of the cards will be damaged when someone tries to put them into the validators like the paper tickets.
Basically they will have to be used the same as the leap card.
Its silly that their old passes doesnt get taken off them when the new one gets issued.

They shouldn't fit in the paper ticket slot due to thickness. Not an issue on buses as they're gone anyway

Jamie2k9

ailbheg wrote: »

Have had inspectors on BE buses a couple of times recently and heard them asking passengers with the new cards if they had sent their old pass back, so it seems odd the social welfare office is telling them to bin them.

When my mother got her photocard ID the covering letter instructed her to return the old pass to Sligo.

Hopefully this is the case, will post when they receive the card in the post however one wonders will they track people who don't send them back.

Gatling

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Hopefully this is the case, will post when they receive the card in the post however one wonders will they track people who don't send them back.

So far they have only issues around 2500 of the new passes that was the last official number they released .
Been that the new card is issued under an invitation scheme it wouldn't be to hard to find out if someone hasn't returned the old one .
They should not be issued until they hand the old paper one back first

punisher5112

A lot of the older ones are going around with the new pass and old pass still in there special Ireland pass wallets.

woodrow wyatt

Hilly Bill wrote: »

will lead to a lot of confusion and a lot of the cards will be damaged when someone tries to put them into the validators like the paper tickets.

We can disregard anything you now post about Dublin Bus as you obviously from this statement don’t travel on Dublin Bus.
If you are going to stir it up at least know what you are talking about.

kmurph

Fred Swanson wrote: »

When my mother got her photocard ID the covering letter instructed her to return the old pass to Sligo.

Same for my Dad. Was specifically told to send the old pass back.

Spanish Eyes

So the new FTP must be validated on DB?

That is not clear to me.

If not, why not? Flashing a plastic card to the driver is much the same as the old back of a cornflake box in a plastic bag thing.

Is DSP and LEAP not in tandem or what?

Dravokivich

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

So the new FTP must be validated on DB?

That is not clear to me.

If not, why not? Flashing a plastic card to the driver is much the same as the old back of a cornflake box in a plastic bag thing.

Is DSP and LEAP not in tandem or what?

Its so nta can quantity the journeys actually taken with it.

Would have very little to do with leap other than reconciliation of journey transactions if anything.

Spanish Eyes

Dravokivich wrote: »

Its so nta can quantity the journeys actually taken with it.

Would have very little to do with leap other than reconciliation of journey transactions if anything.

So does everyone with the new FTP have to validate it?

If that is the case, that is very good news.

Jamie2k9

My family member will likely test the department to see if they will come requesting the pass when they don't receive it if asked on the letter. I suspect they won't as they don't request passes back if people die.

Serious problems if they don't chase for it and IE and others should demand it.

foggy_lad

Dravokivich wrote: »

Its so nta can quantity the journeys actually taken with it.

Would have very little to do with leap other than reconciliation of journey transactions if anything.

There is already a button on all the ticket machines on Dublin bus and bus Eireann for free travel pass holders. The driver is supposed to press it to count each pass holder onto the bus.

AlekSmart

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

My family member will likely test the department to see if they will come requesting the pass when they don't receive it if asked on the letter. I suspect they won't as they don't request passes back if people die.

Serious problems if they don't chase for it and IE and others should demand it.

This issue will become moot within 12-18 months when phase 3 of the PSC-FT roll-out occurs.

The DSP will on a set date announce the cessation of the old "Corn Flakes Box" cardboard document,as and from a certain following date (Looking like Q4 2016) the Flash Pass will be worthless. :eek:

Cushie Butterfield

Gatling wrote: »

So far they have only issues around 2500 of the new passes that was the last official number they released .
Been that the new card is issued under an invitation scheme it wouldn't be to hard to find out if someone hasn't returned the old one .
They should not be issued until they hand the old paper one back first

Hi Gatling,

Just as a matter of interest where did you get that figure? Or is your figure is for one particular area or DSP local office? To me it sounded very low & did a quick search online. Page 27 of this pdf claims that ''Over 500,000 cards were issued by the end of 2013 and this included 110,000 PSC Free Travel Cards. An additional 900,000 PSCs are to be issued in 2014.''

http://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/Compliance-and-Anti-Fraud-Strategy-2014-2018-.pdf

Gatling

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

Hi Gatling,

Just as a matter of interest where did you get that figure? Or is your figure is for one particular area or DSP local office? To me it sounded very low & did a quick search online. Page 27 of this pdf claims that ''Over 500,000 cards were issued by the end of 2013 and this included 110,000 PSC Free Travel Cards. An additional 900,000 PSCs are to be issued in 2014.''

http://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/Compliance-and-Anti-Fraud-Strategy-2014-2018-.pdf

it was posted on a thread on here a while back on here actually with a link saying the number of the new cards issued .

foggy_lad

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

Hi Gatling,

Just as a matter of interest where did you get that figure? Or is your figure is for one particular area or DSP local office? To me it sounded very low & did a quick search online. Page 27 of this pdf claims that ''Over 500,000 cards were issued by the end of 2013 and this included 110,000 PSC Free Travel Cards. An additional 900,000 PSCs are to be issued in 2014.''

http://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/Compliance-and-Anti-Fraud-Strategy-2014-2018-.pdf

Those figures are for everyone including all those who have found themselves needing any kind of social welfare in the last number of years who would probably have had to get a card for the first time.as for the figure of 110,000 it is as reliable as all the other figures coming from government buildings!

Hilly Bill

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

I can disregard anything you now post about Dublin Bus as you obviously from this statement don’t travel on Dublin Bus.
If you are going to stir it up at least know what you are talking about.

excuse me, i'll go back to see if this thread is only about dublin bus and how on earth can you decide from a statement that i dont travel on dublin bus unless that statement was "I dont travel on dublin bus "?.
Where is the stirring up bit in my post? I fixed that post for you seeing that you dont represent everyone on here.
I know exactly what i'm talking about .

Hilly Bill

L1011 wrote: »

They shouldn't fit in the paper ticket slot due to thickness. Not an issue on buses as they're gone anyway

It wont stop them trying, ive seen it been done with the leap cards.
It will take a number of years to change the habit of just showing the card to scanning it.

woodrow wyatt

Hilly Bill wrote: »

excuse me, i'll go back to see if this thread is only about dublin bus and how on earth can you decide from a statement that i dont travel on dublin bus unless that statement was "I dont travel on dublin bus "?.
Where is the stirring up bit in my post? I fixed that post for you seeing that you dont represent everyone on here.
I know exactly what i'm talking about .

You done a small edit when quoting me. You changed the “We” to “I”.
If you are going to quote dont change the quote, its bad form.
When you lie and make things up the "We" is justified.

The old saying when you are in a hole stop digging.
If You did travel on Dublin Bus You "Would know what you are talking about".
Yet again you make a post about the validation of the tickets, if you traveled on Dublin Bus you would know what you state is IMPOSSIBLE.
So stop making up problems on Dublin Bus than cannot happen.

Mrs OBumble

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

if you traveled on Dublin Bus you would know what you state is IMPOSSIBLE.
So stop making up problems on Dublin Bus than cannot happen.

Half of the country lives outside the Pale.

This thread is not exclusively about Dublin Bus.


:rolleyes:

woodrow wyatt

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Half of the country lives outside the Pale.

This thread is not exclusively about Dublin Bus.


:rolleyes:

Instead of rolling your eyes you should have read his original post.
It you did you would see he was replying to a post about Dublin Bus.

devnull

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is already a button on all the ticket machines on Dublin bus and bus Eireann for free travel pass holders. The driver is supposed to press it to count each pass holder onto the bus.

There should not be any button to press going forward, since the new cards MUST be validate only via machine, otherwise it's utterly pointless moving them to smartcard int he first place as it will do sweet FA about fraud.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

There should not be any button to press going forward, since the new cards MUST be validate only via machine, otherwise it's utterly pointless moving them to smartcard int he first place as it will do sweet FA about fraud.

Not totally correct....A Card with Spouse/Companion entitlement has to be validated on the Drivers TIM,this entails the Driver registering the Holder as at present,PLUS another button push to issue a nul-value ticket to the Spouse/Companion.

It is also of interest that the system allocates the spouse/partner ticket to the specific PS Card which opens the spouse/partner interface on the TIM.

This new system is a vast leap forward in monitoring and accounting for the FTS,and marks the beginning of a significant new period in the DSP's Free Travel Scheme.

Hilly Bill

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

You done a small edit when quoting me. You changed the “We” to “I”.
If you are going to quote dont change the quote, its bad form.
When you lie and make things up the "We" is justified.

The old saying when you are in a hole stop digging.
If You did travel on Dublin Bus You "Would know what you are talking about".
Yet again you make a post about the validation of the tickets, if you traveled on Dublin Bus you would know what you state is IMPOSSIBLE.
So stop making up problems on Dublin Bus than cannot happen.

You only post on behalf of yourself on here not anyone else. What are you going on about dublin bus for? the thread is not just about dublin bus. Lie? Please point out the lie. Relax and don't be making an issue out of nothing. Please bear in mind that these cards are used on other modes of transport as well as the bus.

Hilly Bill

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Instead of rolling your eyes you should have read his original post.
It you did you would see he was replying to a post about Dublin Bus.

No i wasn't, i was replying to the use of the card. You jump to the wrong conclusion. On reading back i can see why you thought i was on about the bus but i wasn't, i should have made it clear.

howiya

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

So the new FTP must be validated on DB?

That is not clear to me.

If not, why not? Flashing a plastic card to the driver is much the same as the old back of a cornflake box in a plastic bag thing.

Is DSP and LEAP not in tandem or what?

Saw someone get on a bus today with the new card and he just showed it to the driver.

Does everyone with this card have an entitlement to free travel? I was under the impression it was a replacement of the social welfare card as well as the FTP.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Hilly Bill

Drivers and barrier staff need to be careful with these as the ones with the little blue strip on the top left corner is not valid for free travel.

Spanish Eyes

howiya wrote: »

Saw someone get on a bus today with the new card and he just showed it to the driver.

Does everyone with this card have an entitlement to free travel? I was under the impression it was a replacement of the social welfare card as well as the FTP.

It is an interesting question. Lots of people have the new Public Services Card, but not all of them are entitled to Free Travel.

So does that mean they get a new card when they qualify for FT? The new cards have an indicator on them to show the holder is entitled to FT. There is a sample below.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Sample%20PSCFT.pdf

Also, many who have a PS card are not automatically issued with FTP, they have to apply for it. So anyone who is over 66 and is NOT entitled to the State Pension or other SW payment will not automatically get FT.

That includes Public Sector and Civil Servants, so not a small number!

I presume that since DSP have all the Smart Card details on their database, they will issue a new one with the FT detail on it.

Unless the FT smart card is validated, the ordinary Smart Card can be flashed at will. Just put your thumb over the bit where the FT indicator would be!

Dravokivich

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Unless the FT smart card is validated, the ordinary Smart Card can be flashed at will. Just put your thumb over the bit where the FT indicator would be!

The driver will still need to see that indicator to be assured of it being valid. Even more so when it comes to companions/spouses.

L1011

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It wont stop them trying, ive seen it been done with the leap cards.
It will take a number of years to change the habit of just showing the card to scanning it.

On buses there are no magnetic readers anymore (as was mentioned a few times to you). You never just showed the pass on trains anyway

woodrow wyatt

Dravokivich wrote: »

The driver will still need to see that indicator to be assured of it being valid. Even more so when it comes to companions/spouses.

Why would a driver bother?
You have all seen the story in the papers about the woman getting €10k for paying the wrong fare.
Driver should keep the head down and let someone else worry about it.

Dravokivich

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Why would a driver bother?
You have all seen the story in the papers about the woman getting €10k for paying the wrong fare.
Driver should keep the head down and let someone else worry about it.

That case has little to no relevance with this topic. You would still need to have someone display they were valid for free travel and then the driver stating no and telling them to get off.

woodrow wyatt

Dravokivich wrote: »

That case has little to no relevance with this topic. You would still need to have someone display they were valid for free travel and then the driver stating no and telling them to get off.

"oh i did not know your honour, i felt so embarrassed when the driver told me i had to pay, i felt like a criminal in front of everyone on the bus".
Just drive the bus and dont worry about fare evasion seem to be the best thing a driver could do.
No wonder the fares keep going up.

Dravokivich

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

"oh i did not know your honour, i felt so embarrassed when the driver told me i had to pay, i felt like a criminal in front of everyone on the bus".
Just drive the bus and dont worry about fare evasion seem to be the best thing a driver could do.
No wonder the fares keep going up.

If fare evasion was to be ignored completely, the fares will go up even more.

woodrow wyatt

Dravokivich wrote: »

If fare evasion was to be ignored completely, the fares will go up even more.

But a driver tried to get a passenger to pay the correct fare, it ended up in court and she won a nice bit of money.
Now none of us know what has happened to the driver, was he sacked or suspended?
He would have a easier life if he kept the head down and just drove the bus, this is what i see happening the vast majority of times i am on the bus, why get involved?

AlekSmart

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It is an interesting question. Lots of people have the new Public Services Card, but not all of them are entitled to Free Travel.

So does that mean they get a new card when they qualify for FT? The new cards have an indicator on them to show the holder is entitled to FT. There is a sample below.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Sample%20PSCFT.pdf

Also, many who have a PS card are not automatically issued with FTP, they have to apply for it. So anyone who is over 66 and is NOT entitled to the State Pension or other SW payment will not automatically get FT.

That includes Public Sector and Civil Servants, so not a small number!

I presume that since DSP have all the Smart Card details on their database, they will issue a new one with the FT detail on it.

Unless the FT smart card is validated, the ordinary Smart Card can be flashed at will. Just put your thumb over the bit where the FT indicator would be!

I'm afraid the bolded portion is Incorrect.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

Everyone aged 66 and over living permanently in the State is entitled to the Free Travel Scheme. Some people under 66 also qualify. If you qualify for free travel, you are issued with a pass that you must carry with you when using public transport. In some cases, a Free Travel Companion Pass is available which allows a person to travel with the holder (if they are unable to travel alone). Free travel passes are non-transferrable and can only be used by the named person.

Free travel is available on all State public transport (bus, rail and Dublin's LUAS service). Free travel is also available on a limited number of services operated by private bus transport companies. Private bus transport operators that have opted in to the Free Travel Scheme accept free travel passes.

Some may recall the minor Tizzy in the media when that stalwart Public Servant Alan Dukes was spotted flashing his FTP on a bus last year...and him on his way to yet another board meeting about Anglo-Irish Banking Issues....:rolleyes:

Although,he may well have considered a residence on an Island in order to maximize the benefits of our Free Travel Scheme...

If you are permanently living on any of the Aran Islands, you may get up to 12 single (or 6 return) air trips each year between the islands and the mainland. People who live permanently on Tory Island (Co. Donegal) are entitled to a 8 (or 4 return) free journeys on the seasonal helicopter service operating between the island and the mainland.

I should also point out that when the scheme is fully enabled,the issue of the strategic placement of one's thumb over the Blue Square,on non-free travel enabled PS Cards,will be irrelevant as all cards will be electronically validated for travel.

The current situation,where dud cardboard passes are being replaced with PS Cards with Gold squares,and high quality copies of the FT Lettering laid on top of the invalid Blue square is rapidly spiralling into chaos...with the only hope being the rapid deployment of the new Revenue Protection Teams.

foggy_lad

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

But a driver tried to get a passenger to pay the correct fare, it ended up in court and she won a nice bit of money.
Now none of us know what has happened to the driver, was he sacked or suspended?
He would have a easier life if he kept the head down and just drove the bus, this is what i see happening the vast majority of times i am on the bus, why get involved?

But the Judge RULED that she had paid the correct fare!

Hilly Bill

L1011 wrote: »

On buses there are no magnetic readers anymore (as was mentioned a few times to you). You never just showed the pass on trains anyway

You do if you get the dart.