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How are the English different from us?
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Fratton Fred wrote: »All the people on these islands come from the same background, do you think the early inhabitants of Ireland and Scotland just appeared out of nowhere, or flew in over England?
The main difference is that a lot of England had European influence far more recently thanks to the Angles, Saxons and Normans.
As for Scotland, are you referring to the Gaelic ones, the Pictish ones or the Caledonii?
All of them I suppose. Picts was just a name for the people in the part of Britain the Romans didn't conquer (north of the wall) the Caledonni was a group that fell under this banner.
The Gaels obviously were the Irish who the Romans originally called Scotti (and Gael being a term given to Irish raiders by the Welsh).0 -
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Lord Riverside wrote: »In my experience, the English are generally much better at panning, preparation, organisation and being systematic and thorough than the Irish are. I don't know if this is cultural or genetic.
I'm not so sure ... I've lived there and they're quite capable of making unbelievable messes too!
Our planning issues came down to local authority corruption due to structural inadequacy. It has very little to do with culture and more to do with an era of rotten politics.
Ireland also comes from decades of failure to spend money on infrastructure which meant we'd rather messy roads etc etc until recently. All the planning in the world won't make up for not having the cash to build usable roads!
I didn't find all that much cultural difference between Ireland and non-London parts of England. I feel very at home in more rural parts of SW England more so than anywhere else. It's extremely similar to Cork & Southwesten Ireland. Same maritime vibe, similar village costal architecture etc etc
Main difference is we don't have ownership of a big old imperial heritage which always gives old imperial countries an air of arrogance smaller ones don't have. England is actually probably the only non-reconstructed empire too. France, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria etc were all knocked down several pegs by WWI, WWII erc
England pretty much wound down the empire somewhat less dramatically without ever having to face defeat or occupation of its own country.
I think it's that relative success (mostly because they were an island and easily defensible against the Germans) that has given them a bit of a misplaced sense of superiority that goes down very badly internationally.
Also, they've had wars with or attempted to invade almost everyone on the planet which tends to have left centuries of bad feelings.
I'm not blaming the modern generations in Britain for any of this. I actually think modern day Britain is a very decent place full of mostly very warm, open minded friendly people but, they've a not altogether pleasant legacy to integrate into their indentity that Ireland doesn't have. That includes empire, wars, the class system etc etc
That's largely what makes us different. Other than that we're culturally about as similar as two places could be!0 -
I'm not so sure ... I've lived there and they're quite capable of making unbelievable messes too!
Our planning issues came down to local authority corruption due to structural inadequacy. It has very little to do with culture and more to do with an era of rotten politics.
Ireland also comes from decades of failure to spend money on infrastructure which meant we'd rather messy roads etc etc until recently. All the planning in the world won't make up for not having the cash to build usable roads!
I didn't find all that much cultural difference between Ireland and non-London parts of England. I feel very at home in more rural parts of SW England more so than anywhere else. It's extremely similar to Cork & Southwesten Ireland. Same maritime vibe, similar village costal architecture etc etc
Main difference is we don't have ownership of a big old imperial heritage which always gives old imperial countries an air of arrogance smaller ones don't have. England is actually probably the only non-reconstructed empire too. France, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria etc were all knocked down several pegs by WWI, WWII erc
England pretty much wound down the empire somewhat less dramatically without ever having to face defeat or occupation of its own country.
I think it's that relative success (mostly because they were an island and easily defensible against the Germans) that has given them a bit of a misplaced sense of superiority that goes down very badly internationally.
Also, they've had wars with or attempted to invade almost everyone on the planet which tends to have left centuries of bad feelings.
I'm not blaming the modern generations in Britain for any of this. I actually think modern day Britain is a very decent place full of mostly very warm, open minded friendly people but, they've a not altogether pleasant legacy to integrate into their indentity that Ireland doesn't have. That includes empire, wars, the class system etc etc
That's largely what makes us different. Other than that we're culturally about as similar as two places could be!
I've lived in both countries for many years. You are correct, there is little if any difference between the working classes in both countries. I've mostly seen and experienced the differences when it comes to effective planning, organisational and management ability, both in the public and private sector. There are exceptions of course, but we're talking in general.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »It's a question of how far back you want to go. We were all Celts originally.
Or perhaps Norman, Viking, or Anglo Saxon. It all depends.0 -
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Lord Riverside wrote: »I've lived in both countries for many years. You are correct, there is little if any difference between the working classes in both countries. I've mostly seen and experienced the differences when it comes to effective planning, organisational and management ability, both in the public and private sector. There are exceptions of course, but we're talking in general.
I still think though that's largely down to lack of experience and resources here though. You have to remember a lot of our administrative systems were British to begin with. The civil service and administration systems here were very dramatically cut off. They were starved of resources and also subjected to a lot of political interference in the early years of the state for a whole load of reasons, mostly down to it being a new state.
There were some excellent examples of good administration here though too - ESB, Teagasc and quite a few other organisations and systems spring to mind.
A lot of other services weren't ever properly taken into state management - the health service, primary and secondary schools remained largely as independent messes that just morphed iro state funded independent messes as time went on without any NHS or public school systems type reforms. That was lack of money and deference to the church.
Other areas like local authorities and P&T just had inadequate resources to do anything right for decades.
P&T used to run surpluses but as a government department they'd get swept into other departments budgets and the telecoms networks here had fallen to bits by the 1980s as there was no capital investment possible.
Organisation of services and systems here is improving rapidly at the moment and it's largely down to just learning how to do things, looking at how other countries do things and having the resources available to do them right in the first place.
Driving around Ireland, that's now blatantly obvious. There's lots of well put together, shiny properly managed infrastructure that would have been unimaginable even in the 1980 and 90s
We forget just how badly we fell behind in the mid 20th century.
Ireland also had a major brain drain that made things worse. A combination of lack of economic opportunity and deep, controlling religious fundamentalism and conservatism drove a lot of the movers and the shakers abroad permanently. That only really began to change in the 1970s. so, if you're in your 20s to early 40s it's really your parents' generation, the first Irish generation where large % went to university, where you start to see massive changes and Ireland rapidly caching up.
I don't buy this notion that you can blame Ireland's messy approaches to things in the past on culture or genes. It's about exposure to education, economics and the build up of knowledge within institutions of state and civil society. We're only arriving really as a state in the last few decades in many respects.
I actually think as Ireland has matured as a state and moved away from religious fundamentalism and being quite isolationist and as Britian has moved away from empire, liberalised and towards a modern, inclusive society that's built on its own resources and equal opportunity, the two countries increasingly have more in common.
It's becoming more of a relationship of friendly progressive neighbours and is actually probably the first time ever that the two countries have a "grown up" relationship built on mutual respect.0 -
I still think though that's largely down to lack of experience and resources here though. You have to remember a lot of our administrative systems were British to begin with. The civil service and administration systems here were very dramatically cut off. They were starved of resources and also subjected to a lot of political interference in the early years of the state for a whole load of reasons, mostly down to it being a new state.
There were some excellent examples of good administration here though too - ESB, Teagasc and quite a few other organisations and systems spring to mind.
A lot of other services weren't ever properly taken into state management - the health service, primary and secondary schools remained largely as independent messes that just morphed iro state funded independent messes as time went on without any NHS or public school systems type reforms. That was lack of money and deference to the church.
Other areas like local authorities and P&T just had inadequate resources to do anything right for decades.
P&T used to run surpluses but as a government department they'd get swept into other departments budgets and the telecoms networks here had fallen to bits by the 1980s as there was no capital investment possible.
Organisation of services and systems here is improving rapidly at the moment and it's largely down to just learning how to do things, looking at how other countries do things and having the resources available to do them right in the first place.
Driving around Ireland, that's now blatantly obvious. There's lots of well put together, shiny properly managed infrastructure that would have been unimaginable even in the 1980 and 90s
We forget just how badly we fell behind in the mid 20th century.
Ireland also had a major brain drain that made things worse. A combination of lack of economic opportunity and deep, controlling religious fundamentalism and conservatism drove a lot of the movers and the shakers abroad permanently. That only really began to change in the 1970s. so, if you're in your 20s to early 40s it's really your parents' generation, the first Irish generation where large % went to university, where you start to see massive changes and Ireland rapidly caching up.
I don't buy this notion that you can blame Ireland's messy approaches to things in the past on culture or genes. It's about exposure to education, economics and the build up of knowledge within institutions of state and civil society. We're only arriving really as a state in the last few decades in many respects.
I actually think as Ireland has matured as a state and moved away from religious fundamentalism and being quite isolationist and as Britian has moved away from empire, liberalised and towards a modern, inclusive society that's built on its own resources and equal opportunity, the two countries increasingly have more in common.
It's becoming more of a relationship of friendly progressive neighbours and is actually probably the first time ever that the two countries have a "grown up" relationship built on mutual respect.
In fact the British invested in providing railways to the most rural areas of Ireland, as they did in Scotland, only for the Irish to rip them out. I think the excuses you've list above were successfully by Irish politicians to distract attention from Irish mismanagement failures in first few years of the state, but that excuse was long past it's sell by date years ago, never mind 2015. Most disappointingly, I've also found the difference to exist outside the public sector. Ireland has the same access to resources as Scotland or any Scandinavian country had, but they have made so much more of their countries.0 -
Lord Riverside wrote: »In fact the British invested in providing railways to the most rural areas of Ireland, as they did in Scotland, only for the Irish to rip them out. I think the excuses you've list above were successfully by Irish politicians to distract attention from Irish mismanagement failures in first few years of the state, but that excuse was long past it's sell by date years ago, never mind 2015. Most disappointingly, I've also found the difference to exist outside the public sector. Ireland has the same access to resources as Scotland or any Scandinavian country had, but they have made so much more of their countries.
I didn't say that it was exclusively down to lack of resources, what I said was that it was down to a number of factors.
1) Initial lack of resources.
2) Failure of the state to actually take over the management and responsibility for state services - particularly things like education and health. They allowed these things to run out of control which is why we had the abuse scandals.
3) A brain drain. Ireland's electorate's choice of deeply conservative, inwards focused governments drove many of our best and brightest out of the country.
4) (and maybe this should be 1st) - a culture of lack of transparency in administration and a tendency towards autocratic government even though it was a democracy that was allowed to build up. There were a lot of decision taken without explanation which allowed very serious as well as petty string-pulling corruption to develop.
I honestly think people look back at the 1950s-1990s here with green tinted glasses. It was a total economic basket case that was absolutely wrapped up in a weirdly extreme form of state imposed catholic values merged with some kind of odd Irish version of 19th century Puritanism.
A lot of my family left because of things like lack of access to contraception, extreme church control of everything, being divorced and having to live in exile as a result of that.
As idealistic as we may have started out about being a republic, Ireland was really a very strange place in the mid 20th century. The rest of Western Europe was going through the post war enlightenment and becoming more and more progressive while for a long time, we were really off on our own planet entirely.
I'm *still* having to explain things like our recent introduction of a blasphemy law for example and the situation with the abortion laws.
But, seriously it can take a long time for a country to find its feet after breaking off as an independent entity so violently. Ireland didn't exactly leave or get to leave in a very calm way and I seriously think both Ireland and the British Government behaved like jilted divorced spouses for a long time afterwards.
The economic war / anglo-irish trade dispute for example did enormous damage before WWII kicked off and compounded it.
We hit the 1950s without any serious and massive emigration and that just continued right into the 1970s.
Meanwhile, you'd the Northern Irish troubles bubbling away all the time.
It's very easy to just sweep just how screwed up our 20th century was under the carpet. It's not at all like Sweden and Norway's break up.
It's almost like Ireland froze in 1921 and didn't really move on until the 1970s.
In many respects, it's a bit like where the US and most of Europe went through a post war boom and liberalisation. Ireland's really only gone through that since the early 1990s.
Our "Celtic Tigre" is really the equivalent of France's 1950s/early 60s.
We're catching up, and doing so very rapidly, but to pretend that we'd the same setup as every other Northern European country is just ignoring facts.0 -
I didn't say that it was exclusively down to lack of resources, what I said was that it was down to a number of factors.
1) Initial lack of resources.
2) Failure of the state to actually take over the management and responsibility for state services - particularly things like education and health. They allowed these things to run out of control which is why we had the abuse scandals.
3) A brain drain. Ireland's electorate's choice of deeply conservative, inwards focused governments drove many of our best and brightest out of the country.
4) (and maybe this should be 1st) - a culture of lack of transparency in administration and a tendency towards autocratic government even though it was a democracy that was allowed to build up. There were a lot of decision taken without explanation which allowed very serious as well as petty string-pulling corruption to develop.
I honestly think people look back at the 1950s-1990s here with green tinted glasses. It was a total economic basket case that was absolutely wrapped up in a weirdly extreme form of state imposed catholic values merged with some kind of odd Irish version of 19th century Puritanism.
A lot of my family left because of things like lack of access to contraception, extreme church control of everything, being divorced and having to live in exile as a result of that.
As idealistic as we may have started out about being a republic, Ireland was really a very strange place in the mid 20th century. The rest of Western Europe was going through the post war enlightenment and becoming more and more progressive while for a long time, we were really off on our own planet entirely.
I'm *still* having to explain things like our recent introduction of a blasphemy law for example and the situation with the abortion laws.
1990 was 25 years ago, it's time to stop using religion as an excuse for everything in Ireland, including all the traditional and recent financial mismanagement and corruption. What's next Lehman brothers or perhaps the Albino monk ?0 -
Lord Riverside wrote: »1990 was 25 years ago, it's time to stop using religion as an excuse for everything in Ireland, including the very recent and traditional financial mismanagement and corruption.
I didn't use religious fundamentalism as an excuse for it. I am trying to explain *why* it happened. It's important to actually understand why a particular behaviour / set of behaviours happen in a society.
The argument you're making is more like "Irish people are fundamentally flawed". People behave in different ways depending on the systems and structures that are in place.
If you've huge unemployment, low levels of resources, plumb state jobs .. you'll get a country of Del Boys trying to grab those resources.
There's a legacy of very poor levels of economic opportunity here and needing to know the right person to get access to resources and that's largely where the corruption came from.
It's not really and I consider the fact that they were allowed to hold such control over the country to be a failure of the state and the electorate. They allowed them to take control / handed it over.
We still have a situation where something like 92% of state-paid-for schools are Catholic Church owned and the state still basically will not allow secular education at primary and secondary level.
Something like 98% of them are religious.
Women still have to go abroad if they need a termination of pregnancy for various reasons.
The state would still force a rape victim to carry a baby to term.
We only legalised homosexuality in 1993 and it was not possible to get divorced here until 1995 (and that's actually caused many of my family members to move abroad permanently).
We introduced a BLASPHEMY law in 2009!!!!!
To say that religious fundamentalism hasn't and still doesn't play a major role in Ireland's systems is to stick your head in the sand.
Societies don't just form in the blink of an eye. They generally change slowly and the foundations for those changes are laid decades before they happen.
If you look at the current economic successes and liberalisation of Irish society, those foundations were laid in university campuses in the 1970s and 1980s. It's those former students who now hold sway in politics, administration, media, etc0 -
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Lord Riverside wrote: »In fact the British invested in providing railways to the most rural areas of Ireland, as they did in Scotland, only for the Irish to rip them out. I think the excuses you've list above were successfully by Irish politicians to distract attention from Irish mismanagement failures in first few years of the state, but that excuse was long past it's sell by date years ago, never mind 2015. Most disappointingly, I've also found the difference to exist outside the public sector. Ireland has the same access to resources as Scotland or any Scandinavian country had, but they have made so much more of their countries.
The British also did not invest in Irish rural railways, they were actually run largely by private companies who had to raise money privately and make them work as businesses.
The victorians didn't believe in spending state money on infrastructure. Everything paid for itself, quite literally.
Canals were run by private companies, railways, roads were operated as turn pikes etc etc.
That's also the main reason that they didn't exactly come to the rescue in a famine. The prevailing philosophy at the time was pretty uncaring, very cold, market economics.
The railways were closed because they weren't economically viable. A lot of enthusiasts don't like that, but that's the reality of it. There wasn't the population to support them and road transport made a hell of a lot more sense in a country with small, scattered populations.
There was a railway boom in the 19th century which wasn't unlike the "dot com" boom of the early 2000s. A lot of railways were built that made very little economic sense. Investors piled in and unfortunately due to changes in technology (cars, trucks), rapidly declining population due to emigration and urbanisation, they just stopped making sense and people lost a lot of money. Some were nationalised, some weren't.
In Scotland in 2015, the rail network's not exactly massive either and doesn't serve most rural areas.
Also, the motorway network doesn't extend much beyond Glasgow and Edinburgh area where as in Ireland there is actually now quite an extensive motorway network for a country this size.
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Also, despite the economic turbulence of the last few years, Ireland isn't actually in particularly bad shape at the moment. It's still one of the wealthiest countries in Europe, despite the economic crash, which was just a more intense version of the same crash that happened in the US and the UK, Spain and Iceland which was all down to cowboy finance in *all* of those countries.0 -
The argument you're making is more like "Irish people are fundamentally flawed". People behave in different ways depending on the systems and structures that are in place.
No, my observation, and nothing more, based on years in living in both countries, is that the only difference, in my experience. That doesn't mean they are fundamentally flawed as you claim, some people actually prefer to be unplanned, unprepared, unorganised, and unsystematic, you'll learn that in life, and I have no idea why you then brought religion into this discussion, but while you're on the subject, whatever religious / anti religious fundamentalism was created in Ireland, was again created and perpetuated by Irish leaders and politicians, and still is, and not by the English. Some Irish people do seem obsessed with religion and anti religion, as your posts confirm. Perhaps the time would be better spent on concentrating in administrative and economic management, like successful countries do, rather than getting bothered what religion or non religion someone has ?0 -
The British also did not invest in Irish rural railways, they were actually run largely by private companies who had to raise money privately and make them work as businesses.
The victorians didn't believe in spending state money on infrastructure. Everything paid for itself, quite literally.
Canals were run by private companies, railways, roads were operated as turn pikes etc etc.
That's also the main reason that they didn't exactly come to the rescue in a famine. The prevailing philosophy at the time was pretty uncaring, very cold, market economics.
The railways were closed because they weren't economically viable. A lot of enthusiasts don't like that, but that's the reality of it. There wasn't the population to support them and road transport made a hell of a lot more sense in a country with small, scattered populations.
There was a railway boom in the 19th century which wasn't unlike the "dot com" boom of the early 2000s. A lot of railways were built that made very little economic sense. Investors piled in and unfortunately due to changes in technology (cars, trucks), rapidly declining population due to emigration and urbanisation, they just stopped making sense and people lost a lot of money. Some were nationalised, some weren't.
In Scotland in 2015, the rail network's not exactly massive either and doesn't serve most rural areas.
Also, the motorway network doesn't extend much beyond Glasgow and Edinburgh area where as in Ireland there is actually now quite an extensive motorway network for a country this size.
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Also, despite the economic turbulence of the last few years, Ireland isn't actually in particularly bad shape at the moment. It's still one of the wealthiest countries in Europe, despite the economic crash, which was just a more intense version of the same crash that happened in the US and the UK, Spain and Iceland which was all down to cowboy finance in *all* of those countries.
And yet Scotland, which exactly the same disadvantages and advantages as Ireland had, is now one of the most economically successful regions in the British Isles.0 -
I brought religion into it for two reasons.
1) It caused a brain drain here in the mid 20th century by driving a lot of our best and most qualified abroad. It had created an incredibly oppressive country which continued to be the case until very recently. Ireland had become the EU equivalent of the US bible belt in many respects until then.
2) The religious/heavily conservative control of schooling here has tended to create a situation where in the past there was absolutely no focus subjects that are necessary for running a country.
Subjects that get people to think for themselves and think about how a country or an organisation is run are absolutely essential.
Things like civics, learning how the democratic systems work is essential. You're giving people tools to access power and ensure accountability.
We've also had a long history of funnelling our brightest students towards traditionally prestigious jobs in medicine, law and finance/banking.
3) The way education / formation here has historically worked has been about breaking people down to ensure they don't question authority, unless they're in the elite schools which had access to power.
The idea that you should empower the masses through liberal, open, thought-provking education where people critique things is a relatively new concept in Irish 2nd level education.
That kind of thing is why we are only catching up with other Northern European countries in recent years.0 -
Lord Riverside wrote: »And yet Scotland, which exactly the same disadvantages and advantages as Ireland had, is now one of the most economically successful regions in the British Isles.
Based on what metric?
The Republic of Ireland's also one of the most economically successful regions of these islands by most metrics, certainly in terms of economic activity, spending power, etc etc..
It's actually weathered the economic crisis rather well, all things considered.
Average weekly earning in Ireland is €697.52
Average weekly earning in Scotland is £508.30 (€691)
Unemployment rate there is lower, that hasn't always been the case in the last 15 years or so.
Scottish GDP per capita : $45,045 (including off shore oil)
Irish GDP per capita: $49,360 (has no off shore oil)
...
All I'm seeing in the stats is that both Scotland and Ireland are doing rather well at the moment.0 -
Based on what metric?
Average weekly earning in Ireland is €697.52
Average weekly earning in Scotland is £508.30 (€691)
Unemployment rate there is lower, that hasn't always been the case in the last 15 years or so.
Scottish GDP per capita : $45,045 (including off shore oil)
Irish GDP per capita: $49,360 (has no off shore oil)
Can you give me a source for these figures and a year by year comparison ?
Also aren't Scotland lucky they had no Bertie to sell off their old and gas rights for themselves.0 -
CSO 2014
Scottish Government Quarterly Accounts 2014
Ireland's economic growth rates are also way higher at the moment.
It's currently the fastest growing economy in the EU with 5.2% (CSO and Eurostat) growth in 2014 and that's showing trends towards accelerating in 2015.
Ireland as yet hasn't produced any oil and our oil/gas legislation changed in 2014 with new Profit Resource Rent Tax on any oil that might exist in future wells.
Ireland charges up to 55% on these. The UK is as low as 35% btw.
We're not 'giving it away free' despite the rhetoric and the UK is hardly tax-centric / free from oil or banking / investment lobby influence.
The majority of Scotland's oil was spent paying down debts run up by the rest of Britain and on UK public expenditure. It's not "Scotland's oil" at present anyway.
The UK was largely rescued by discovery of oil having had to call in the IMF in 1976.
It's often forgotten the UK actually basically went bankrupt in the 1970s.0 -
CSO 2014
Scottish Government Quarterly Accounts 2014
Ireland's economic growth rates are also way higher at the moment.
It's currently the fastest growing economy in the EU with 5.2% (CSO and Eurostat) growth in 2014 and that's showing trends towards accelerating in 2015.
Ireland as yet hasn't produced any oil and our oil/gas legislation changed in 2014 with new Profit Resource Rent Tax on any oil that might exist in future wells.
Ireland charges up to 55% on these. The UK is as low as 35% btw.
We're not 'giving it away free' despite the rhetoric and the UK is hardly tax-centric / free from oil or banking / investment lobby influence.
I asked for a year on year comparison and links to the figures.
Bertie never gave anything away for free, you should know that.0 -
Lord Riverside wrote: »I asked for a year on year comparison and links to the figures.
Bertie never gave anything away for free, you should know that.
I'm a new poster, I can't link anything as boards blocks URLs.
I have to wait 10 days and 50 posts (now passed).0 -
CSO 2014
Scottish Government Quarterly Accounts 2014
Ireland's economic growth rates are also way higher at the moment.
It's currently the fastest growing economy in the EU with 5.2% (CSO and Eurostat) growth in 2014 and that's showing trends towards accelerating in 2015.
always find these kind of stats odd even misleading. based on no stats or info whats so ever, i suspect irelands housing situation is getting worse. now call me mad, but maybe my gut feeling is correct. im also wondering, why are so many irish people now paying for health care insurance? why are people paying more taxes than possibly ever before? are we really doing that much better? i think im smelling a rat! ignore all thats stats folks and try your best to answer the above questions honestly. we ve been codded folks0 -
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Lord Riverside wrote: »So no year on year comparison, and no sources. I see.
Better get up to speed if you expect to be paid by mount street. Lower or upper.
Economic data is important but can be misleading. If you compare the wealth of the UK per a person its far below nearly ever US state. Its roughly on par with Alabama (presumably due to the huge number of US super rich). Although I think its safe to say that the quality of life is far better in the UK then Alabama and many poorer US states. One superior way to rank countries is to use the human development index as this accounts for education, equality and healthcare.
In this system Ireland is 11th at 0.899 while the UK is 14th at 0.892. People really overstate how poor Ireland is and was as a country today and historically. Take for example this economic data from the 1930s.in 1938, annual income per person in Ireland was estimated $252, the ninth highest in Europe, behind the UK, Germany and the Scandinavians but ahead of such countries as France, Austria and Italy
http://www.theirishstory.com/2011/01/25/life-and-debt-%E2%80%93-a-short-history-of-public-spending-borrowing-and-debt-in-independent-ireland/#.VeyYpVMqzEZ0 -
How are we different? Well...
Politically...
We value a republican form of government; they are overwhelmingly pro-monarchist.
We are a constitutionally neutral country; they seem to be spoiling for a fight every couple of years.
We are clearly pro-EU by a comfortable majority and appear to be very outward-looking; they have a huge internal conflict between the pro-EU and anti-EU lobby (a recent poll showed a slim majority want to leave)
Culturally...
We have a distinctive form of music.
We have our own language.
We have our own sports.
Key historical figures....
When the BBC did their 100 Greatest Britons list, Oliver Cromwell made the top ten. He is reviled to this day in Ireland.
Churchill was ranked number one on the list; he is not exactly Mr. Popular in Ireland due to his role in sending the Black and Tans into Ireland.
And so on and so on.
We are different, but that doesn't mean we can't like each other, and I think it's nice that relations have gotten better in recent times.'It is better to walk alone in the right direction than follow the herd walking in the wrong direction.'
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Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »How are we different? Well...
Politically...
We value a republican form of government; they are overwhelmingly pro-monarchist. - The massive, if eventually beaten, vote for independence, runs strongly contary to this comment.
We are a constitutionally neutral country; they seem to be spoiling for a fight every couple of years. - With whom? Explanation needed here, please. Scotland, as part of the UK, has no independent remit to 'spoil for a fight'.
We are clearly pro-EU by a comfortable majority and appear to be very outward-looking; they have a huge internal conflict between the pro-EU and anti-EU lobby (a recent poll showed a slim majority want to leave)
Culturally...
We have a distinctive form of music. - So do the Scots.
We have our own language. - So do the Scots.
We have our own sports. - So do the Scots.
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Agreed.
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I'm pretty sure the English have their own language, sport and music as well.0
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Fratton Fred wrote: »I'm pretty sure the English have their own language, sport and music as well.
tac0 -
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