PTSB shares to be offered on the market

handlemaster

http://m.rte.ie/news/business/2015/0413/693826-permanent-tsb/

will there be a killing to be made or blood on the street

tralalala

I know there is a s*cker in this and this wont be the bank. So it will be the investor

handlemaster

tralalala wrote: »

I know there is a s*cker in this and this wont be the bank. So it will be the investor

i suspect a few will get in and out and make some. BOI did well in the end.

Atlantic Dawn

The bank last week secured approval from the Government, which owns 99% of the bank, to raise up to €400m in equity.

So €400m for that 1% would value the bank at €40 billion...I think I will purchase some magic beans instead.

gordongekko

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

So €400m for that 1% would value the bank at €40 billion...I think I will purchase some magic beans instead.

Will be nearer 30%

daheff

whats happening with existing shares?

I saw there was a 1 for 100 reverse split yesterday & heard something about the current shareholding being wiped out (as its listed on ESM)?

That's hardly right (or fair) to current shareholders?

handlemaster

daheff wrote: »

whats happening with existing shares?

I saw there was a 1 for 100 reverse split yesterday & heard something about the current shareholding being wiped out (as its listed on ESM)?

That's hardly right (or fair) to current shareholders?

surely the game was up in 2008 for these existing shares. investors company was worthless and was taken over by the tax payer

gordongekko

daheff wrote: »

whats happening with existing shares?

I saw there was a 1 for 100 reverse split yesterday & heard something about the current shareholding being wiped out (as its listed on ESM)?

That's hardly right (or fair) to current shareholders?

The state owns over 99% of the shares and is entitled to do what it wants with its shareholding.

daheff

gordongekko wrote: »

The state owns over 99% of the shares and is entitled to do what it wants with its shareholding.

yes the state can. But what about the 1% who also own shares? Why are they wiped out? As I said, this hardly seems fair.


Also can anybody see a link to details of this online? I cant find anything


Edit: found this link
http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/irish/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=121&newsid=504886

daheff

handlemaster wrote: »

surely the game was up in 2008 for these existing shares. investors company was worthless and was taken over by the tax payer

But not all of these shareholders held shares prior to 2008....quite a number have purchased shares since then.

handlemaster

daheff wrote: »

But not all of these shareholders held shares prior to 2008....quite a number have purchased shares since then.

a well hello... they knew the score.. worthless the day they were bought

daheff

handlemaster wrote: »

a well hello... they knew the score.. worthless the day they were bought

Hardly...people wouldn't have bought if they were.


do you think they are worthless now?

gordongekko

daheff wrote: »

yes the state can. But what about the 1% who also own shares? Why are they wiped out? As I said, this hardly seems fair.


Also can anybody see a link to details of this online? I cant find anything


Edit: found this link
http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/irish/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=121&newsid=504886

How do you figure the 0.8% of people are wiped out? What about us the tax payer and 99.2% holder who is losing money on this initial transaction???

lucky john

daheff wrote: »

Hardly...people wouldn't have bought if they were.


do you think they are worthless now?

. some people get it in their head that if a share is now at 6c and was once at €5 its a bargain. I have lost count of the time on this site alone that posters have been WARNED NOT TO BUY PSTB or AIB shares because they are more or less worthless. Michael Noonan has even said the same but people just wont be told.

what is going on at PSTB has been well flagged so its no surprise. Something along the same lines will happen to AIB and shares there will revert to their true value of around 2c.

daheff

gordongekko wrote: »

How do you figure the 0.8% of people are wiped out? What about us the tax payer and 99.2% holder who is losing money on this initial transaction???

I dont know ...I cant figure this deal out. I heard on the business news on the radio that the small holders will be wiped out. But would be offered the option to buy 'new' shares at the same price as institutions who get in on the offering.


As for the tax payer...I dont understand why the government is allowing PTSB to do this and destroy (potentially) their shareholding value....other than they dont want to put more money into PTSB to cover the shortfalls identified in stress tests.

daheff

lucky john wrote: »

. some people get it in their head that if a share is now at 6c and was once at €5 its a bargain. I have lost count of the time on this site alone that posters have been WARNED NOT TO BUY PSTB or AIB shares because they are more or less worthless. Michael Noonan has even said the same but people just wont be told.

what is going on at PSTB has been well flagged so its no surprise. Something along the same lines will happen to AIB and shares there will revert to their true value of around 2c.

you're confusing worthless with valuing the company over and above its intrinsic (net asset value) worth. The two are not the same. I dont disagree that AIB/PTSB are overvalued based on peers & book value, but i dont think the shares are worthless.

Irelandspro

I have shares with them since the mid/late 90s I think they were given to me for free by the bank as a gesture or something , a few people got them actually.

Where do these shares stand now at the moment ? do I still hold the same amount of shares or do i now have a higher amount due to some kinda stock split ? Or am I never going to be able to cash those shares in ? do they basically just disappear or something checking on PTSB site today had share price listed at over €5 a share ? that dosent really sound right they were down at about 4c a share when i looked a few months back.

If anyone could offer laymans terms clarification i'd be very greatfull

lucky john

daheff wrote: »

you're confusing worthless with valuing the company over and above its intrinsic (net asset value) worth. The two are not the same. I dont disagree that AIB/PTSB are overvalued based on peers & book value, but i dont think the shares are worthless.

not sure what your point is daheff. I said that the SHARES were "more or less worthless" not the company. NAV is of very little relevance to present shareholders. To raise €400 mil their holdings are going to be diluted to the point of irrelevance. however it does matter to anyone considering taking up (if offered)or buying any new shares. until we see how many pstb exist after this and the price the shares are sold at, it is impossible to say if this will be a good investment or not.

euroboom13

As for the tax payer...I dont understand why the government is allowing PTSB to do this and destroy (potentially) their shareholding value....other than they dont want to put more money into PTSB to cover the shortfalls identified in stress tests.[/QUOTE]

House values haven't fallen either..... just the banks aren`t supplying the same amount of borrowed money...

The markets aren't fair.

daheff

lucky john wrote: »

not sure what your point is daheff. I said that the SHARES were "more or less worthless" not the company.

How can the shares be worthless if the company isn't? the shares are part ownership of that company (and its value).

eurobloom13 wrote:

House values haven't fallen either..... just the banks aren`t supplying the same amount of borrowed money...

The markets aren't fair.

Not sure what house values have to do with this?

Markets aren't fair...values go up & down sometimes arbitrarily...but I would expect ownerships to be respected (if my understanding of what is happening is correct)

homer911

I see PTSB has done its share consolidation, replacing every 100 shares with one new share - price now €5.35

http://www.permanenttsbgroup.ie/investor-relations/share-information/share-price-information.aspx

gordongekko

daheff wrote: »

I dont know ...I cant figure this deal out. I heard on the business news on the radio that the small holders will be wiped out. But would be offered the option to buy 'new' shares at the same price as institutions who get in on the offering.


As for the tax payer...I dont understand why the government is allowing PTSB to do this and destroy (potentially) their shareholding value....other than they dont want to put more money into PTSB to cover the shortfalls identified in stress tests.

You are correct. Ptsb must raise the money or cease to trade. So it's this or bust.

handlemaster

I think some of the comments on here about shares leads me to believe if you dont undersand the simple stuff about shares stay well clear. shares are only an interest in some enterprise / business that is their value a bust business has no real value not for the ordinary shareholder anyhow

Sonnenblumen

Irelandspro wrote: »

I have shares with them since the mid/late 90s I think they were given to me for free by the bank as a gesture or something , a few people got them actually.

Where do these shares stand now at the moment ? do I still hold the same amount of shares or do i now have a higher amount due to some kinda stock split ? Or am I never going to be able to cash those shares in ? do they basically just disappear or something checking on PTSB site today had share price listed at over €5 a share ? that dosent really sound right they were down at about 4c a share when i looked a few months back.

If anyone could offer laymans terms clarification i'd be very greatfull

Lucky for you, you can wipe your backside with them, because that's exactly what ptsb did with the money original investors paid in.:(

homer911

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Lucky for you, you can wipe your backside with them, because that's exactly what ptsb did with the money original investors paid in.:(

And I suppose the money was forced on all those borrowers who took tracker mortgages, or who are now unable to make repayments through not fault of their own.

Irelandspro

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Lucky for you, you can wipe your backside with them, because that's exactly what ptsb did with the money original investors paid in.:(

They were given to me as some kinda gesture my parents were explaining , I dont think they were actually paid for so its not money lost to me I guess. I wouldn't invest my own money in any kind of bank or government - I don't trust them

Sonnenblumen

homer911 wrote: »

And I suppose the money was forced on all those borrowers who took tracker mortgages, or who are now unable to make repayments through not fault of their own.

To a large extent yes I would blame wreckless lending by commission/bonus motivated incompetent mortgage managers. Of course the customer must also take some blame.

The tracker mortgage fiasco is patent proof and a crippling legacy of the bank's utter incompetence to finance and manage it's own loan book in a sustainable way.

I have yet to hear any sanctions (including sackings) as a consequence of internal gross negligence.

Sean O Farrell

Based on your comments, there is no hope for anyone who had bank shares prior to 2008 ever recovering their value.
I appreciate that those who bought 'penny shares' deserve what they get as they are taking a punt.
It would be nice if the 'suckers' and I count myself among them who had holding prior to the crash (which I am sure can be identified separately) would be given some chance to recover e.g. preferential access to new share issues . I am not sure if this is legal but surely the government can make laws for almost anything

lucky john

Sean O Farrell wrote: »

Based on your comments, there is no hope for anyone who had bank shares prior to 2008 ever recovering their value.
I appreciate that those who bought 'penny shares' deserve what they get as they are taking a punt.
It would be nice if the 'suckers' and I count myself among them who had holding prior to the crash (which I am sure can be identified separately) would be given some chance to recover e.g. preferential access to new share issues . I am not sure if this is legal but surely the government can make laws for almost anything

sorry sean but not a hope in hell. first rule of share buying...values may go down as well as up. a small fortune in share equity has gone down a black hole in all our banks over the last few years unfortunately. Time to move on.

Wheelnut

I got something in the post this morning and the language is almost incomprehensible to me as a layman.

Firstly it seems the 800 shares I had before the bust have been replaced by 8 new shares at €4-50 each. That's the bit that's easy to understand but can anyone tell me if my interpretation of the next bit is correct:
They are going to issue new shares to the market at €4-50 each. This would dilute my eight shares so they are offering me a chance to avoid dilution by buying another eight shares at €4-50 each. Am I right?

Given what has been posted on this thread already, I presume this would be regarded as a bad investment. However, since it would only cost me €36 to double my holding maybe I should buy in the hope they come good for my grandchildren.

Sonnenblumen

Wheelnut wrote: »

I got something in the post this morning and the language is almost incomprehensible to me as a layman.

Firstly it seems the 800 shares I had before the bust have been replaced by 8 new shares at €4-50 each. That's the bit that's easy to understand but can anyone tell me if my interpretation of the next bit is correct:
They are going to issue new shares to the market at €4-50 each. This would dilute my eight shares so they are offering me a chance to avoid dilution by buying another eight shares at €4-50 each. Am I right?

Given what has been posted on this thread already, I presume this would be regarded as a bad investment. However, since it would only cost me €36 to double my holding maybe I should buy in the hope they come good for my grandchildren.

I suggest you buy some comics/Star Wars toys for your grandchildren so that by the time they will have children, they will have something of value. This current funding is to pay off debt in a bankrupt bank which continues to lose money, where on earth is the investment case?

Wheelnut

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

... where on earth is the investment case?

It's probably about the same as buying a few tickets for a single shot at the lottery.

Is my understanding of that recent document correct?

lucky john

Wheelnut wrote: »

I got something in the post this morning and the language is almost incomprehensible to me as a layman.

Firstly it seems the 800 shares I had before the bust have been replaced by 8 new shares at €4-50 each. That's the bit that's easy to understand but can anyone tell me if my interpretation of the next bit is correct:
They are going to issue new shares to the market at €4-50 each. This would dilute my eight shares so they are offering me a chance to avoid dilution by buying another eight shares at €4-50 each. Am I right?

Given what has been posted on this thread already, I presume this would be regarded as a bad investment. However, since it would only cost me €36 to double my holding maybe I should buy in the hope they come good for my grandchildren.

just now you can buy pstb shares on the market for €4.51 (so you save on fees only). they are hardly offering you a bargain. the government still have maybe 75% of this bank to sell off. if you wait a while more you should be able to buy below €4. Also, the cost to your grand-kids to sell 16 shares is likely to eat up the shares.

i took up a boi offer of shares at 50c. not long after they were offering them in at new rights issue at 10c.

Wheelnut, it only 36 euro so hardly going to make or break you. the above might be too serious an answer in your case.