Open up intercity railway lines to private operators

stehyl15

Hi does anyone I think it would be a good idea to allow private operators run trains alongside Irish Rail on profit making routes like Dublin to Cork, Dublin to Belfast and make a non stop train service to compete with the motorway and Irish Rails current operations it is a system already run in some European countries and it works quite well from what I hear and open up the Phoenix Park tunnel so trains direct from Dublin City Centre to attract more usage so you wouldn't end up in Hueston but in the actual City Centre.

Jamie2k9

stehyl15 wrote: »

Hi does anyone I think it would be a good idea to allow private operators run trains alongside Irish Rail on profit making routes like Dublin to Cork, Dublin to Belfast and make a non stop train service to compete with the motorway and Irish Rails current operations it is a system already run in some European countries and it works quite well from what I hear and open up the Phoenix Park tunnel so trains direct from Dublin City Centre to attract more usage so you wouldn't end up in Hueston but in the actual City Centre.

No because:
All other lines would suffer
Filling 200 seats at a profit non stop is not very doable outside peak hours and IE plan to offer a service similar in peak hours lather this summer.

European Railways and Irish Railways cannot be compared in any way, shape or forum!

Remember the lines are already open!

goingnowhere

There are no profit making routes (Cork-Cobh/Midleton is the least loss making)

Under EU law a private operator could currently only operate passenger services Dublin Belfast

man98

I'd be all for a limited version of this, comparable to PSO air routes, in which every set amount of years (5 - 10 I suppose) operators can bid for a few services. Independent body assesses them, picks the best candidate. They would, however, have to meet minimum standards.

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

There are no profit making routes (Cork-Cobh/Midleton is the least loss making)

Under EU law a private operator could currently only operate passenger services Dublin Belfast

Didn't Dep of Transport lift restrictions on Ireland in the last year or two?

Cork is profitable or at least has being in the past.

I'd be all for a limited version of this, comparable to PSO air routes, in which every set amount of years (5 - 10 I suppose) operators can bid for a few services. Independent body assesses them, picks the best candidate. They would, however, have to meet minimum standards.

It's good in principal but private operators couldn't make routes viable very easily.

man98

Jamie2k9 wrote:

Cork is profitable or at least has being in the past.

The operations make a profit, it's the track which really messes profits up. As long as IR maintain track they'll continue to leak money, although we can't do anything (legal) to stop that

L1011

man98 wrote: »

The operations make a profit, it's the track which really messes profits up. As long as IR maintain track they'll continue to leak money, although we can't do anything (legal) to stop that

Track doesn't maintain itself - if someone else does they'll have to pay significant access charges which will be much the same

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Didn't Dep of Transport lift restrictions on Ireland in the last year or two?

i think it was a case of they had no choice as the exemption couldn't be renewed. maybe not though but i was of the understanding that all lines are open to private operators now if they want to come in.

flyingsnail

end of the road wrote: »

i think it was a case of they had no choice as the exemption couldn't be renewed. maybe not though but i was of the understanding that all lines are open to private operators now if they want to come in.

The lines are open to private operators and AFAIK the tack usage charges are in the network statement.

kc56

Internally IE has been divided into two operators: Infrastructure and Undertakings (Operations incl fleet maintenance) and each produces separate accounts in the annual report. Each receives separate subsidies. This was done to comply with EU Directives in 2013. See IE web site for info.

n97 mini

I think it should be tried. Nothing ventured nothing gained, and it's unlikely IE is the most efficient company to ever run a railway, despite what some people think.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I think it should be tried.

try what exactly. private operators are all ready able to come into our network if they want. are they queueing up to do so? apart from bellmont, who else has expressed any interest.

n97 mini wrote: »

Nothing ventured nothing gained, and it's unlikely IE is the most efficient company to ever run a railway, despite what some people think.

who thinks IE is the most efficient company to run a railway. nobody. its all in your head because you can't deal with the fact that at the moment, perfect private operators apart from 1, don't look to be interested. nothing ventured nothing gained is no reason to spend money on the subsidies these operators will most likely require to run our passenger services either.

MGWR

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No because:
All other lines would suffer
Filling 200 seats at a profit non stop is not very doable outside peak hours and IE plan to offer a service similar in peak hours lather this summer.

European Railways and Irish Railways cannot be compared in any way, shape or forum!

Remember the lines are already open!

How, how, how and how?

There is nothing unique about a railway in Ireland compared to railways elsewhere on the planet; not even the track gauge. Just like there is nothing unique about Irish roadways in the same respect, even with the side of the road driven on.

Frankly, the "smaller" the population, the more suited it is for railways to be privately operated. There was no pressing need to create the GSR in 1925 other than the fact that the government wanted it so. Private companies would be far, far better suited to hauling freight and soliciting said business than a state-owned company with in-built conflicts of interest.

And with respect to seating, is this not why DMUs were bought? so that operating costs on off-peak hours could be reduced?

end of the road

MGWR wrote: »

Frankly, the "smaller" the population, the more suited it is for railways to be privately operated.

very very debatible. i don't see how that is the case. now days.

MGWR wrote: »

Private companies would be far, far better suited to hauling freight and soliciting said business than a state-owned company with in-built conflicts of interest.

certainly with freight. in terms of the passenger services, i'm not convinced its as good as is made out. it would remove the conflicts of interest, which are evident in fairness. but then again, the NTA could easily force certain things on irish rail that would make them have certain minimum standards on all the 3 types of service, intercity, regional, suburban. all will have aspects that are different, but there will be a minimum standard that they will need to implement. after that there might be certain things that will be different for various reasons rightly or wrongly.

MGWR wrote: »

with respect to seating, is this not why DMUs were bought? so that operating costs on off-peak hours could be reduced?

hard to know. to me, nothing is ever as it seems with irish rail

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

who thinks IE is the most efficient company to run a railway.

Eh, I dunno, not pointing any fingers :rolleyes:

end of the road wrote: »

nothing ventured nothing gained is no reason to spend money on the subsidies these operators will most likely require to run our passenger services either.

Private operators might require less subsidies than the current public one. But we know how you feel about that

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Private operators might require less subsidies than the current public one.

like it has in britain?

n97 mini wrote: »

But we know how you feel about that

about what? if private operators were interested in our railway they would be queueing up to come in . apart from a luxury rail tour operator, nobody so far seems to be interested. after all, private operators can come in if they want.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

like it has in britain?

IE should tender for jobs in Britain if they're that good.

Infini

Realistically Rail here isnt exactly profitable. Not only that but the cost would be prohibitive and a private operator wont touch anything thats loss making by design (ie low pop density). Realistically rail here is basically a Hornby Trainset compared to mainland Europe or even England. Best off treating it as an infrastructure rather than something for profit (ie getting people from A to B as simply and quickly as possible). Besides if whats happening with Dublin Bus/Bus Eireann is any indication there would be massive opposition to any privatisation that involves forcing people to another company.

n97 mini

Infini2 wrote: »

Realistically Rail here isnt exactly profitable.

Of course, and whoever does it will have to paid a subsidy.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

IE should tender for jobs in Britain

yes, i agree.

n97 mini wrote: »

if they're that good.

the private operators (well actually some of them aren't that private but are of other state operators) aren't anything to shout about to be honest.

BoatMad

There is nothing unique about a railway in Ireland compared to railways elsewhere on the planet; not even the track gauge. Just like there is nothing unique about Irish roadways in the same respect, even with the side of the road driven on.

yes there is, we have a isolated , gauge unique system, serving a very small dispersed population .

Frankly, the "smaller" the population, the more suited it is for railways to be privately operated.

A cloud none statement if ever there was, given the need to recover the infrastructure costs on a small population basis, the subvention to maintaining the track to " allow" an operating profit, would make the argument ridiculous

There was no pressing need to create the GSR in 1925 other than the fact that the government wanted it so.

eh, The GSR was formed , as was CIE, because railways essentially failed financially

Private companies would be far, far better suited to hauling freight and soliciting said business than a state-owned company with in-built conflicts of interest.

for freight there is an argument, but with such a small network, the issue of the capital costs of trains, rolling stock, and the costs of running such trains would bury a private operator

I actually admire what has happened in Britian , especially as regards rail freight , but I don't think the scale exists here at all to make it work

ardmacha

I wouldn't necessarily start with intercity. How about a Limerick rail that could run a lightweight operation on the Limerick - Galway. Limerick - Waterford and Limerick - Nenagh lines and have an incentive to try and promote what business there is on these lines?

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

I think it should be tried. Nothing ventured nothing gained, and it's unlikely IE is the most efficient company to ever run a railway, despite what some people think.

The RPSI are doing just this here in Ireland.

They are just about turning a surplus on their operations. This is after paying a train crew (Driver/s, train guards and traction inspectors) and track access charges to Irish Rail. After these costs they are availing of a panel of volunteer on board staff, train management and servicing teams and running trains on cherry picked plum services utilising rolling stock that was purchased for peanut prices.

Compared to Irish Rail it's a shoestring operation with better on board revenue strings and they aren't exactly raking it in. Granted it's a different model to Irish Rail but it indicates that passenger trains are no cash cow.

BoatMad

ardmacha wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily start with intercity. How about a Limerick rail that could run a lightweight operation on the Limerick - Galway. Limerick - Waterford and Limerick - Nenagh lines and have an incentive to try and promote what business there is on these lines?

you have one primarily issue/question

can the passenger revenue from such services , fund a private company , to the extent that it can not only make current profits, pay salaries, dividends, etc. But that also it can attract sufficient valuation to ensure it can borrow at commercial rates to fund rolling stock.

If the answer is NO to any of this or is border line, then no commercial operator will be interested and no lending institution will back them.


This is even before you get into the official " internal marketplace" nonsense that is track access charges etc.

On an anecdotal basis, I cannot see that sufficient passenger flows are there on such lines, even truer now, with the existence of higher quality roads and facilities

in reality No intercity rail is justified in this country. Its shutdown tomorrow , would have no effect on the travelling public in reality

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

in reality No intercity rail is justified in this country. Its shutdown tomorrow , would have no effect on the travelling public in reality

i don't believe that is necessarily true. the effects may not be as much as if say the dart was shut, but most likely those people will head for their cars. more cars clambering into the city or people parking up somewhere and cramming on to the dart network which is overcrowded as it is really isn't an option surely? the majority of lines are doing okay, of course they could do better but thats down to the company and the government as well as the motor way. keeping what we have is justified as it does provide another public transport option, and for some, an option which if it didn't exist anymore, would mean people not bothering with public transport and taking the car instead.


most of its users would simply transfer to the car. it would mean more tax revenue though which would be appealing for the government. mind you its shutdown will probably happen at some stage, i certainly fear for the day it will come, hopefully it won't be in my lifetime

metrovick001

Railways provide an importand social service In terms of offering a vilable alternative to road transport.
Its a pity the freight isnt (really) put up for grabs by the private sector - there is commercial potential there.

Their funding is

BoatMad wrote: »

you have one primarily issue/question

can the passenger revenue from such services , fund a private company , to the extent that it can not only make current profits, pay salaries, dividends, etc. But that also it can attract sufficient valuation to ensure it can borrow at commercial rates to fund rolling stock.

If the answer is NO to any of this or is border line, then no commercial operator will be interested and no lending institution will back them.


This is even before you get into the official " internal marketplace" nonsense that is track access charges etc.

On an anecdotal basis, I cannot see that sufficient passenger flows are there on such lines, even truer now, with the existence of higher quality roads and facilities

in reality No intercity rail is justified in this country. Its shutdown tomorrow , would have no effect on the travelling public in reality

MGWR

BoatMad wrote: »

you have one primarily issue/question

can the passenger revenue from such services, fund a private company, to the extent that it can not only make current profits, pay salaries, dividends, etc. But that also it can attract sufficient valuation to ensure it can borrow at commercial rates to fund rolling stock.

If the answer is NO to any of this or is border line, then no commercial operator will be interested and no lending institution will back them.

This is even before you get into the official " internal marketplace" nonsense that is track access charges etc.

On an anecdotal basis, I cannot see that sufficient passenger flows are there on such lines, even truer now, with the existence of higher quality roads and facilities

in reality No intercity rail is justified in this country. Its shutdown tomorrow, would have no effect on the travelling public in reality

Thanks for the mid-1950s thinking. That has been proven false in other countries, who have built their passenger and freight rail infrastructure back up. In addition, however, the continued state control of such railway advancements has resulted in the inherent inefficiencies to catch up, when instead a less-regulated (i.e. than Britain) privatisation ought to have followed.

Motorways can never absorb 100 per cent of land-borne transportation; this is why railways still are vital as a parallel and additional mode, being able to transport more freight volume and human travellers per width of footprint. The government, by controlling both modes too closely (micromanaging), has too much of a conflict of interest, and is constricting commerce.

Corridors like Dublin-Cork survive due to not only demand but the maintenance of a superior (relatively speaking) level of service (which could be done on other corridors); and frankly, the demand for faster-than-100-mph service has been outstanding on this line for several decades. 100 mph as a top speed is a benchmark achieved well over a half-century ago (by steam and electric before diesel, too), and the government is hindering rather than helping a transition into the twenty-first century.

end of the road

MGWR wrote: »

Thanks for the mid-1950s thinking. That has been proven false in other countries, who have built their passenger and freight rail infrastructure back up. In addition, however, the continued state control of such railway advancements has resulted in the inherent inefficiencies to catch up, when instead a less-regulated (i.e. than Britain) privatisation ought to have followed.

Motorways can never absorb 100 per cent of land-borne transportation; this is why railways still are vital as a parallel and additional mode, being able to transport more freight volume and human travellers per width of footprint. The government, by controlling both modes too closely (micromanaging), has too much of a conflict of interest, and is constricting commerce.

Corridors like Dublin-Cork survive due to not only demand but the maintenance of a superior (relatively speaking) level of service (which could be done on other corridors); and frankly, the demand for faster-than-100-mph service has been outstanding on this line for several decades. 100 mph as a top speed is a benchmark achieved well over a half-century ago (by steam and electric before diesel, too), and the government is hindering rather than helping a transition into the twenty-first century.

while you have a point in relation to the government, the question is this. as private operators can now come in on our network whether the government likes it or not, why apart from bellmont, are they not queueing up to do so. IE won't be able to set the charges to high, EU competition rules probably won't allow it so there isn't really anything stopping them should they want to.

MGWR

end of the road wrote: »

while you have a point in relation to the government, the question is this. as private operators can now come in on our network whether the government likes it or not, why apart from bellmont, are they not queueing up to do so. IE won't be able to set the charges to high, EU competition rules probably won't allow it so there isn't really anything stopping them should they want to.

Most likely due to regulations continuing to get in the way. Just like what happened with some past attempts at privatising local bus services in Dublin. Remove those regulations, allow companies the autonomy to purchase and take care of their own alignments, and the queues will start to form, indeed.

However, I suspect that just as with the Third Amendment back in 1972 the sovereignty of Ireland was handed off to the EEC, it may turn out that IE will be sold off to the state railway of some other country, possibly SNCF or Deutsche Bahn.

end of the road

MGWR wrote: »

Most likely due to regulations continuing to get in the way. Just like what happened with some past attempts at privatising local bus services in Dublin. Remove those regulations, allow companies the autonomy to purchase and take care of their own alignments, and the queues will start to form, indeed.

i don't think they will. sorry, nice idea, but its unlikely to happen no matter what.

MGWR wrote: »

However, I suspect that just as with the Third Amendment back in 1972 the sovereignty of Ireland was handed off to the EEC, it may turn out that IE will be sold off to the state railway of some other country, possibly SNCF or Deutsche Bahn.

more then likely

BoatMad

MGWR wrote: »

Thanks for the mid-1950s thinking. That has been proven false in other countries, who have built their passenger and freight rail infrastructure back up. In addition, however, the continued state control of such railway advancements has resulted in the inherent inefficiencies to catch up, when instead a less-regulated (i.e. than Britain) privatisation ought to have followed.

Motorways can never absorb 100 per cent of land-borne transportation; this is why railways still are vital as a parallel and additional mode, being able to transport more freight volume and human travellers per width of footprint. The government, by controlling both modes too closely (micromanaging), has too much of a conflict of interest, and is constricting commerce.

Corridors like Dublin-Cork survive due to not only demand but the maintenance of a superior (relatively speaking) level of service (which could be done on other corridors); and frankly, the demand for faster-than-100-mph service has been outstanding on this line for several decades. 100 mph as a top speed is a benchmark achieved well over a half-century ago (by steam and electric before diesel, too), and the government is hindering rather than helping a transition into the twenty-first century.

all of you can keep stating there are " commercial " interests that would come in and run the railway, freight or passengers are living in a dream world.

100 mph as a top speed is a benchmark achieved well over a half-century ago (by steam and electric before diesel, too),

firstly to suggest that 100mph running was common in steam days is nonsense , the mechanics of such engines could never maintain a sustained 100mph service

.

Motorways can never absorb 100 per cent of land-borne transportation; this is why railways still are vital as a parallel and additional mode, being able to transport more freight volume and human travellers per width of footprint.

This is observable nonsense in Ireland. Leaving aside mass commuter services, clearly the motorway network in Ireland is handling 95% of passenger traffic and virtually 100% of freight and there is clearly plenty of excursus capacity

Interurban railways are not necessary in a country as small and as sparsely populated as Ireland. In fact the whole history of railways from their inception to the present day is one of financial underperformance and loss.

Corridors like Dublin-Cork survive due to not only demand but the maintenance of a superior (relatively speaking) level of service (which could be done on other corridors); and frankly, the demand for faster-than-100-mph service has been outstanding on this line for several decades.

I would argue that IE, is wasting its time engaging in 100mph running , firstly its capable of this on only one corridor and even there its in consistent.

secondly knocking a few minutes off the rail to rail journey is irrelevant to the modern passenger, who may spend twice the rail journey actually getting from door to door. Far better to ensure a 70mph service that runs consistently and reliably across the whole network.

BoatMad

metrovick001 wrote: »

Railways provide an importand social service In terms of offering a vilable alternative to road transport.
Its a pity the freight isnt (really) put up for grabs by the private sector - there is commercial potential there.

There is no evidence based argument that backs what you say. Any freight coming in is likely to rely solely on faciities provided by IR, locos and rolling stock. No freight company could justify the investment in engines and rolling stock on the basis of the modest traffic flows possible in Ireland. The GSR couldn't make a goi of it , modern private operators arnt either.

leaving aside the issues sourcing 5'3" gauge rolling stock, just where is the private finance and rolling stock coming from