DART Service to be expanded

dublindiehard

rte.ie/news/2015/0409/692920-rail/

I'd much rather they address the chronic capacity issues on the Malahide branch at peak time which nobody seems interested in doing.

Over the last few weeks they continue to add carriages to trains which have a very small number of people standing, whilst allowing others to be crush loaded to the effect where people cannot board.

cgcsb

The RTÉ storey makes it sound like DARTs have been empty up until recently. DARTs have been wedged for decades. Why expand services now? on foot of a mere 4% passenger increase.

Decuc500

Sounds to me like a plan to have every rush hour train as a 4 carriage set and the reason why those grab handles have been added.

There’s plenty of Darts in peak time, the problem is most of them are small, 4 carriage trains that are always packed. There won’t be any change next year for Northbound customers, just small crush load trains split between Howth and Malahide with 20 minute gaps (but Irish Rail can still say there’s a Dart from town every 10 minutes) and fairs increasing and half the fleet still sitting idle in Fairview.

dublindiehard

Every Malahide Dart train after the 15:59 from Dun Laghoaire to Bray is 4 carriages that's the whole of evening peak.

It's been mentioned on here before, but the 17.10 from Bray is a particular offender and I have seen two people collapse on that since the turn of the year.

Last week I noticed the 15.59 from Dun Laghoaire, which I've got the whole journey to Malahide, which has seats spare at six carriages, has been increased to 8.

Meanwhile the later trains, right bang slap in the middle of peak struggle to allow people on with four cars, and honestly, the loads don't really start to empty out before Clongriffin.

nompere

dublindiehard wrote: »

Every Malahide Dart train after the 15:59 from Dun Laghoaire to Bray is 4 carriages that's the whole of evening peak.

I don't like disagreeing with people on here, but I catch a Malahide DART at 16.55 from Sandycove 4 days out of 5, and it's always an 8 car train. The other day of the week I catch the 16.26 from Sandycove and that's always a 6 car train.

Zebra3

Sums up how shameful our PT is. Our capital city having a train service running every 15 mins during the rush hour is seen as big news.

Ffs.... :rolleyes:

dublindiehard

nompere wrote: »

I don't like disagreeing with people on here, but I catch a Malahide DART at 16.55 from Sandycove 4 days out of 5, and it's always an 8 car train. The other day of the week I catch the 16.26 from Sandycove and that's always a 6 car train.

I haven't been on those trains for a few weeks, but the 16.55 was always at most a six car set and normally 4. and I've never seen the 16.26 be more than a 4 car set.

The real run starts on the 17.26 from Sandycove which is perhaps the most overcrowded train on the network despite being the one nearest the busiest time of peak, the later yuou get during peak in the evening the shorter the trains get to Malahide. The following Malahide is also 4 cars and these are the two trains I get the most.

There is a clear north and south divide here, and the reason early evening peak trains going North are higher in capacity is so they can be high capacity late peak for southsiders.

A train leaving Bray at 17.10 will always be hugely busy, since it will clean up many sotps on the way where people have left at 5pm. but it's still 4 cars, but instead we get like 6-8 cars on the 15.59 from DL.

Decuc500

nompere wrote: »

The other day of the week I catch the 16.26 from Sandycove and that's always a 6 car train.

You'd have to wonder though why a train leaving Pearse for Malahide before 5:00pm is 6 carriages long and later trains with twice the number of people using them are only 4 carriages. Presumably the earlier train is 6 carriages for it's return to the Southside.

All the trains leaving Pearse northbound before 5:00 are 6 or 8 carriages to cater for rush hour Southside demand while all the trains leaving Pearse southbound before 5:00 are 4 carriages, ensuring 4 carriages in peak times for Northside commuters. I'm sure there really is a need for 6/8 carriages to cater for Southsiders but it's not a very balanced service.

AngryLips

How can the news to increase dart frequencies be greet with so much negativity?

SpaceTime

Do they have enough carriages to do this ? I got the impression they'd removed some from service during the recession ?

dublindiehard

AngryLips wrote: »

How can the news to increase dart frequencies be greet with so much negativity?

Because it will not necessairly resolve the issues that currently exist with over-crowding, since it could just result in more regular, shorter trains with the same number of carriages.

I'd much rather thay put the 26+ carriages a day that sit unused even at peak times onto current trains to address capacity issues.

dublindiehard

SpaceTime wrote: »

Do they have enough carriages to do this ? I got the impression they'd removed some from service during the recession ?

Yesterday there were 24 sitting in Clontarf Road sidings not in use and two sitting in the outside trian wash.

That is before you take into account anything that is hiding inside.

The question is are they going to put most of these back into service or simply use the same number of carriages in shorter formations to provide a more frequent service?

You'd hope not, because if they did then they're increasing their costbase hugely by needing to employ extra drivers for extra trains with no capacity benefits.

Captain Chaos

There is a 4 car 8520 set outside the south end of the depot that has not moved at all in over a year. It has been tagged by vandals 3 times in as many months and cleaned each time and one of the drivers windows has been smashed by a load of small stones, looks like a shotgun blast. Don't know what the story is with that set.

dublindiehard

There's one 8520 near the North end of the depot as well which seems to ALWAYS be there apart from very rare occasions.

It's easily identifiable since all the underneath of it is silver and looking brand new and it looks repainted, but I've never seen it in service.

Captain Chaos

dublindiehard wrote: »

There's one 8520 near the North end of the depot as well which seems to ALWAYS be there apart from very rare occasions.

It's easily identifiable since all the underneath of it is silver and looking brand new and it looks repainted, but I've never seen it in service.

Thats sets 31/32, only back from the paint shop a few weeks. It's under frames are painted black instead of the usual grey so it does stand out.

It's anything that's left out the south end right beside the park fence that you worry about. That's where the 8200 units were dumped for years before being officially withdrawn and dumped in Inchicore depot.

LXFlyer

The issue here is one of funding - IE at present do not have the funding to operate all of the DART sets every day - that's why there are the problems there are.

This proposal to increase the core DART service to every 10 minutes is, as I understand it, coming from the NTA on the basis that they will provide the necessary funding to increase the frequency and reinstate the DART sets that have been out of service, thus increasing peak capacity.

That will mean an increase in the PSO grant.

It would make no sense for a proposal such as this to have only 4 car sets at peak.

This is about responding to the upturn in the economy, and a 10 minute DART frequency will go a long way towards improving the service on that corridor.

dublindiehard

Must have been two different sets then sicne t here's been a set that looks identical there almost every week since the turn of the year, I thought it was the same one the whole time but maybe I'm mistaken.

In any case, the early 8500s are ****, with the crap seats that are almost on the floor, excessive padding and legroom designed for Asians! Rather than repoainting them they should put in some proper seats inside.

dublindiehard

lxflyer wrote: »

It would make no sense for a proposal such as this to have only 4 car sets at peak.

Really though, there are some trains that really shouldn't be 4 car sets, the 17.10 from Bray is a prime example of s train which should NEVER be anything less than a 6 car.

There is a clear North/South divide after 5pm on trains going throuhg the city.

AngryLips

dublindiehard wrote: »

Because it will not necessairly resolve the issues that currently exist with over-crowding, since it could just result in more regular, shorter trains with the same number of carriages.

Err, even at the most conservative estimates it totally does increase capacity. If IE were to run only four car trains at the moment and under the new timetable also only run four car trains, it would still see a capacity increase of 8 extra cars an hour or 50% extra capacity. How is that not an improvement?

Mousewar

Woo-hoo, darts every 10 minutes. Now we'll have a rail system that is only twice as infrequent as most European cities rather than three times as infrequent. Dublin is speeding into the 20th century.

dublindiehard

AngryLips wrote: »

If IE were to run only four car trains at the moment and under the new timetable also only run four car trains, it would still see a capacity increase of 8 extra cars an hour or 50% extra capacity. How is that not an improvement?

If that was the case, then it would be.

But that is not the case now and trains are a mix of 2, 4, 6, or 8 car trains depending on the time, the route and the day etc.

If you have say now

00: 6 car
15: 8 car
30: 6 car
45: 8 car
= 28 Cars

And go to
00: 4 Car
10: 4 car
20: 4 Car
30: 4 Car
40: 4 car
50: 4 car
= 24 cars.

Also the extra trains may not necessarily deal with overcrowding and may make it worse, for instance for a pssenger than arrives at 5.21 at the station, he will sitll be getting the 5.30 train, as will alot of other customers, but they have 2 carriages less.

Timetables have to take into account flow, and just saying by increases frequency by 50 percent will mean the loads will level out over all of the trains isn't the way it works in reality since some people will just get on the first train they see when they get to the station and cutting back the service to 4 cars even if more frequent will make their overcrowding worse.

AngryLips

dublindiehard wrote: »

Also the extra trains may not necessarily deal with overcrowding

Well we don't really know yet either way. But the fact that they are moving to ten minute frequencies make it a more appealing service which will no doubt further stimulate passenger numbers. And even if capacity does not increase now, there is a good chance it will increase further if there is a further marked improvement in passenger numbers as a result of a frequency increase.

dublindiehard

AngryLips wrote: »

Well we don't really know yet either way. But the fact that they are moving to ten minute frequencies make it a more appealing service which will no doubt further stimulate passenger numbers. And even if capacity does not increase now, there is a good chance it will increase further if there is a further marked improvement in passenger numbers as a result of a frequency increase.

But thats my point. There are problems with capacity on certan services now, which should be addressed particuarly Northbound in the second half of evening peak.

Just trying to cram as many customers on as possible without sorting out the underlying problem is not the way IR should be approaching this. Any good company deals with it's problems as they come up, rather than pushing them further down the line.

The first priority should be increasing capacity to reduce gross overcrowding which exists on some services, if there is still ability to increase frequency after that then that's by all means good, but they should dwal with the problems first, before possibly creating more.

It's fundamentaly broken situation when a company is too busy trying to look for new customers rather than looking after their unhappy existing ones, many businesses fall into this trap and later on down the line it just creates an even bigger problem.

loyatemu

I'd imagine it will continue to be a mix of 4, 6 and 8 car trains. They'd hardly be doing this if it didn't increase capacity.

Also the extra trains may not necessarily deal with overcrowding and may make it worse, for instance for a pssenger than arrives at 5.21 at the station, he will sitll be getting the 5.30 train, as will alot of other customers, but they have 2 carriages less.

yeah but all the passengers that arrive before 5.20 and currently get the 5.30 train will no longer be on it. Even if the overall capacity was the same I'd rather have more frequent trains than longer ones,.

schemingbohemia

dublindiehard wrote: »

If that was the case, then it would be.

But that is not the case now and trains are a mix of 2, 4, 6, or 8 car trains depending on the time, the route and the day etc.

If you have say now

00: 6 car
15: 8 car
30: 6 car
45: 8 car
= 28 Cars

And go to
00: 4 Car
10: 4 car
20: 4 Car
30: 4 Car
40: 4 car
50: 4 car
= 24 cars.

Also the extra trains may not necessarily deal with overcrowding and may make it worse, for instance for a pssenger than arrives at 5.21 at the station, he will sitll be getting the 5.30 train, as will alot of other customers, but they have 2 carriages less.

Timetables have to take into account flow, and just saying by increases frequency by 50 percent will mean the loads will level out over all of the trains isn't the way it works in reality since some people will just get on the first train they see when they get to the station and cutting back the service to 4 cars even if more frequent will make their overcrowding worse.

Why are you presuming a reduction in train size?

Decuc500

Frequency wise there are 8 trains serving the Northside from Pearse between 16:56 and 18:02. Really, they couldn’t possibly add any more. Most of these are 4 carriage sets and way overcrowded. The issue here is obviously overcrowding on short trains, not frequency. This is what should be addressed first of all (and hopefully with more funding will be).

LXFlyer

I am pretty sure that Irish Rail are fully aware of the overcrowding problems at present - at the risk of repeating myself the issue is one of funding. In order to operate longer trains, more funding is needed and that is not happening this year as the PSO subsidy for 2015 has already been set in stone by the Minister for Transport.

The NTA have (I understand) committed to provide additional funds to allow a 10 minute service be provided and which will see the necessary sets back into use to deliver extra peak capacity in 2016.

I've not heard any suggestion that sets would be reduced to 4 car under this proposal - that would just be a nonsense.

dublindiehard

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Why are you presuming a reduction in train size?

There will have to be a reduction in tran sizes to deliver the level of frequency that is being proposed unless there is a tender out for stock that I do not know about?

Essentially what is being proposed is an increase in frequency of 50% and there is nowhere near enough carriages to run even all the new services at such frequency in peak time even with 4 carriages.

Therefore some trains will need to be shortened to allow there to be enough capacity to allow for the increased frequency and it's going to require at least 32 carriages to add the new services in without effecting sexisting train lengths.

stehyl15

I wonder how these people complaining about the overcrowding would last in Mumbai

dublindiehard

lxflyer wrote: »

I am pretty sure that Irish Rail are fully aware of the overcrowding problems at present - at the risk of repeating myself the issue is one of funding. In order to operate longer trains, more funding is needed and that is not happening this year as the PSO subsidy for 2015 has already been set in stone by the Minister for Transport.

My problem isn't as much that I want them to run more stock, it's more that the current stock is not being used as effectively as it should be and there is a clear problem with northbound services in the second half of evening peak.

Currently there is not proper matching of capacity to loadings and the stock needs to be used more effectively. It is unacceptable that the 17.10 from Bray continues to be 4 carriages, despite the fact that train after train in the other direction is always at least 6-8 going through the city centre with quite a few seats, whilst other direction people can't even stand.

I've not heard any suggestion that sets would be reduced to 4 car under this proposal - that would just be a nonsense.

But they will have to shorten some sets in order to deliver such timetable based on current carriage numbers?

dublindiehard

stehyl15 wrote: »

I wonder how these people complaining about the overcrowding would last in Mumbai

My frustration is not with the over-crowding per se, it's more the fact that capacity is not being matched to demand properly.