DART Service to be expanded

dublindiehard

rte.ie/news/2015/0409/692920-rail/

I'd much rather they address the chronic capacity issues on the Malahide branch at peak time which nobody seems interested in doing.

Over the last few weeks they continue to add carriages to trains which have a very small number of people standing, whilst allowing others to be crush loaded to the effect where people cannot board.

cgcsb

The RTÉ storey makes it sound like DARTs have been empty up until recently. DARTs have been wedged for decades. Why expand services now? on foot of a mere 4% passenger increase.

Decuc500

Sounds to me like a plan to have every rush hour train as a 4 carriage set and the reason why those grab handles have been added.

There’s plenty of Darts in peak time, the problem is most of them are small, 4 carriage trains that are always packed. There won’t be any change next year for Northbound customers, just small crush load trains split between Howth and Malahide with 20 minute gaps (but Irish Rail can still say there’s a Dart from town every 10 minutes) and fairs increasing and half the fleet still sitting idle in Fairview.

dublindiehard

Every Malahide Dart train after the 15:59 from Dun Laghoaire to Bray is 4 carriages that's the whole of evening peak.

It's been mentioned on here before, but the 17.10 from Bray is a particular offender and I have seen two people collapse on that since the turn of the year.

Last week I noticed the 15.59 from Dun Laghoaire, which I've got the whole journey to Malahide, which has seats spare at six carriages, has been increased to 8.

Meanwhile the later trains, right bang slap in the middle of peak struggle to allow people on with four cars, and honestly, the loads don't really start to empty out before Clongriffin.

nompere

dublindiehard wrote: »

Every Malahide Dart train after the 15:59 from Dun Laghoaire to Bray is 4 carriages that's the whole of evening peak.

I don't like disagreeing with people on here, but I catch a Malahide DART at 16.55 from Sandycove 4 days out of 5, and it's always an 8 car train. The other day of the week I catch the 16.26 from Sandycove and that's always a 6 car train.

Zebra3

Sums up how shameful our PT is. Our capital city having a train service running every 15 mins during the rush hour is seen as big news.

Ffs.... :rolleyes:

dublindiehard

nompere wrote: »

I don't like disagreeing with people on here, but I catch a Malahide DART at 16.55 from Sandycove 4 days out of 5, and it's always an 8 car train. The other day of the week I catch the 16.26 from Sandycove and that's always a 6 car train.

I haven't been on those trains for a few weeks, but the 16.55 was always at most a six car set and normally 4. and I've never seen the 16.26 be more than a 4 car set.

The real run starts on the 17.26 from Sandycove which is perhaps the most overcrowded train on the network despite being the one nearest the busiest time of peak, the later yuou get during peak in the evening the shorter the trains get to Malahide. The following Malahide is also 4 cars and these are the two trains I get the most.

There is a clear north and south divide here, and the reason early evening peak trains going North are higher in capacity is so they can be high capacity late peak for southsiders.

A train leaving Bray at 17.10 will always be hugely busy, since it will clean up many sotps on the way where people have left at 5pm. but it's still 4 cars, but instead we get like 6-8 cars on the 15.59 from DL.

Decuc500

nompere wrote: »

The other day of the week I catch the 16.26 from Sandycove and that's always a 6 car train.

You'd have to wonder though why a train leaving Pearse for Malahide before 5:00pm is 6 carriages long and later trains with twice the number of people using them are only 4 carriages. Presumably the earlier train is 6 carriages for it's return to the Southside.

All the trains leaving Pearse northbound before 5:00 are 6 or 8 carriages to cater for rush hour Southside demand while all the trains leaving Pearse southbound before 5:00 are 4 carriages, ensuring 4 carriages in peak times for Northside commuters. I'm sure there really is a need for 6/8 carriages to cater for Southsiders but it's not a very balanced service.

AngryLips

How can the news to increase dart frequencies be greet with so much negativity?

SpaceTime

Do they have enough carriages to do this ? I got the impression they'd removed some from service during the recession ?

dublindiehard

AngryLips wrote: »

How can the news to increase dart frequencies be greet with so much negativity?

Because it will not necessairly resolve the issues that currently exist with over-crowding, since it could just result in more regular, shorter trains with the same number of carriages.

I'd much rather thay put the 26+ carriages a day that sit unused even at peak times onto current trains to address capacity issues.

dublindiehard

SpaceTime wrote: »

Do they have enough carriages to do this ? I got the impression they'd removed some from service during the recession ?

Yesterday there were 24 sitting in Clontarf Road sidings not in use and two sitting in the outside trian wash.

That is before you take into account anything that is hiding inside.

The question is are they going to put most of these back into service or simply use the same number of carriages in shorter formations to provide a more frequent service?

You'd hope not, because if they did then they're increasing their costbase hugely by needing to employ extra drivers for extra trains with no capacity benefits.

Captain Chaos

There is a 4 car 8520 set outside the south end of the depot that has not moved at all in over a year. It has been tagged by vandals 3 times in as many months and cleaned each time and one of the drivers windows has been smashed by a load of small stones, looks like a shotgun blast. Don't know what the story is with that set.

dublindiehard

There's one 8520 near the North end of the depot as well which seems to ALWAYS be there apart from very rare occasions.

It's easily identifiable since all the underneath of it is silver and looking brand new and it looks repainted, but I've never seen it in service.

Captain Chaos

dublindiehard wrote: »

There's one 8520 near the North end of the depot as well which seems to ALWAYS be there apart from very rare occasions.

It's easily identifiable since all the underneath of it is silver and looking brand new and it looks repainted, but I've never seen it in service.

Thats sets 31/32, only back from the paint shop a few weeks. It's under frames are painted black instead of the usual grey so it does stand out.

It's anything that's left out the south end right beside the park fence that you worry about. That's where the 8200 units were dumped for years before being officially withdrawn and dumped in Inchicore depot.

LXFlyer

The issue here is one of funding - IE at present do not have the funding to operate all of the DART sets every day - that's why there are the problems there are.

This proposal to increase the core DART service to every 10 minutes is, as I understand it, coming from the NTA on the basis that they will provide the necessary funding to increase the frequency and reinstate the DART sets that have been out of service, thus increasing peak capacity.

That will mean an increase in the PSO grant.

It would make no sense for a proposal such as this to have only 4 car sets at peak.

This is about responding to the upturn in the economy, and a 10 minute DART frequency will go a long way towards improving the service on that corridor.

dublindiehard

Must have been two different sets then sicne t here's been a set that looks identical there almost every week since the turn of the year, I thought it was the same one the whole time but maybe I'm mistaken.

In any case, the early 8500s are ****, with the crap seats that are almost on the floor, excessive padding and legroom designed for Asians! Rather than repoainting them they should put in some proper seats inside.

dublindiehard

lxflyer wrote: »

It would make no sense for a proposal such as this to have only 4 car sets at peak.

Really though, there are some trains that really shouldn't be 4 car sets, the 17.10 from Bray is a prime example of s train which should NEVER be anything less than a 6 car.

There is a clear North/South divide after 5pm on trains going throuhg the city.

AngryLips

dublindiehard wrote: »

Because it will not necessairly resolve the issues that currently exist with over-crowding, since it could just result in more regular, shorter trains with the same number of carriages.

Err, even at the most conservative estimates it totally does increase capacity. If IE were to run only four car trains at the moment and under the new timetable also only run four car trains, it would still see a capacity increase of 8 extra cars an hour or 50% extra capacity. How is that not an improvement?

Mousewar

Woo-hoo, darts every 10 minutes. Now we'll have a rail system that is only twice as infrequent as most European cities rather than three times as infrequent. Dublin is speeding into the 20th century.

dublindiehard

AngryLips wrote: »

If IE were to run only four car trains at the moment and under the new timetable also only run four car trains, it would still see a capacity increase of 8 extra cars an hour or 50% extra capacity. How is that not an improvement?

If that was the case, then it would be.

But that is not the case now and trains are a mix of 2, 4, 6, or 8 car trains depending on the time, the route and the day etc.

If you have say now

00: 6 car
15: 8 car
30: 6 car
45: 8 car
= 28 Cars

And go to
00: 4 Car
10: 4 car
20: 4 Car
30: 4 Car
40: 4 car
50: 4 car
= 24 cars.

Also the extra trains may not necessarily deal with overcrowding and may make it worse, for instance for a pssenger than arrives at 5.21 at the station, he will sitll be getting the 5.30 train, as will alot of other customers, but they have 2 carriages less.

Timetables have to take into account flow, and just saying by increases frequency by 50 percent will mean the loads will level out over all of the trains isn't the way it works in reality since some people will just get on the first train they see when they get to the station and cutting back the service to 4 cars even if more frequent will make their overcrowding worse.

AngryLips

dublindiehard wrote: »

Also the extra trains may not necessarily deal with overcrowding

Well we don't really know yet either way. But the fact that they are moving to ten minute frequencies make it a more appealing service which will no doubt further stimulate passenger numbers. And even if capacity does not increase now, there is a good chance it will increase further if there is a further marked improvement in passenger numbers as a result of a frequency increase.

dublindiehard

AngryLips wrote: »

Well we don't really know yet either way. But the fact that they are moving to ten minute frequencies make it a more appealing service which will no doubt further stimulate passenger numbers. And even if capacity does not increase now, there is a good chance it will increase further if there is a further marked improvement in passenger numbers as a result of a frequency increase.

But thats my point. There are problems with capacity on certan services now, which should be addressed particuarly Northbound in the second half of evening peak.

Just trying to cram as many customers on as possible without sorting out the underlying problem is not the way IR should be approaching this. Any good company deals with it's problems as they come up, rather than pushing them further down the line.

The first priority should be increasing capacity to reduce gross overcrowding which exists on some services, if there is still ability to increase frequency after that then that's by all means good, but they should dwal with the problems first, before possibly creating more.

It's fundamentaly broken situation when a company is too busy trying to look for new customers rather than looking after their unhappy existing ones, many businesses fall into this trap and later on down the line it just creates an even bigger problem.

loyatemu

I'd imagine it will continue to be a mix of 4, 6 and 8 car trains. They'd hardly be doing this if it didn't increase capacity.

Also the extra trains may not necessarily deal with overcrowding and may make it worse, for instance for a pssenger than arrives at 5.21 at the station, he will sitll be getting the 5.30 train, as will alot of other customers, but they have 2 carriages less.

yeah but all the passengers that arrive before 5.20 and currently get the 5.30 train will no longer be on it. Even if the overall capacity was the same I'd rather have more frequent trains than longer ones,.

schemingbohemia

dublindiehard wrote: »

If that was the case, then it would be.

But that is not the case now and trains are a mix of 2, 4, 6, or 8 car trains depending on the time, the route and the day etc.

If you have say now

00: 6 car
15: 8 car
30: 6 car
45: 8 car
= 28 Cars

And go to
00: 4 Car
10: 4 car
20: 4 Car
30: 4 Car
40: 4 car
50: 4 car
= 24 cars.

Also the extra trains may not necessarily deal with overcrowding and may make it worse, for instance for a pssenger than arrives at 5.21 at the station, he will sitll be getting the 5.30 train, as will alot of other customers, but they have 2 carriages less.

Timetables have to take into account flow, and just saying by increases frequency by 50 percent will mean the loads will level out over all of the trains isn't the way it works in reality since some people will just get on the first train they see when they get to the station and cutting back the service to 4 cars even if more frequent will make their overcrowding worse.

Why are you presuming a reduction in train size?

Decuc500

Frequency wise there are 8 trains serving the Northside from Pearse between 16:56 and 18:02. Really, they couldn’t possibly add any more. Most of these are 4 carriage sets and way overcrowded. The issue here is obviously overcrowding on short trains, not frequency. This is what should be addressed first of all (and hopefully with more funding will be).

LXFlyer

I am pretty sure that Irish Rail are fully aware of the overcrowding problems at present - at the risk of repeating myself the issue is one of funding. In order to operate longer trains, more funding is needed and that is not happening this year as the PSO subsidy for 2015 has already been set in stone by the Minister for Transport.

The NTA have (I understand) committed to provide additional funds to allow a 10 minute service be provided and which will see the necessary sets back into use to deliver extra peak capacity in 2016.

I've not heard any suggestion that sets would be reduced to 4 car under this proposal - that would just be a nonsense.

dublindiehard

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Why are you presuming a reduction in train size?

There will have to be a reduction in tran sizes to deliver the level of frequency that is being proposed unless there is a tender out for stock that I do not know about?

Essentially what is being proposed is an increase in frequency of 50% and there is nowhere near enough carriages to run even all the new services at such frequency in peak time even with 4 carriages.

Therefore some trains will need to be shortened to allow there to be enough capacity to allow for the increased frequency and it's going to require at least 32 carriages to add the new services in without effecting sexisting train lengths.

stehyl15

I wonder how these people complaining about the overcrowding would last in Mumbai

dublindiehard

lxflyer wrote: »

I am pretty sure that Irish Rail are fully aware of the overcrowding problems at present - at the risk of repeating myself the issue is one of funding. In order to operate longer trains, more funding is needed and that is not happening this year as the PSO subsidy for 2015 has already been set in stone by the Minister for Transport.

My problem isn't as much that I want them to run more stock, it's more that the current stock is not being used as effectively as it should be and there is a clear problem with northbound services in the second half of evening peak.

Currently there is not proper matching of capacity to loadings and the stock needs to be used more effectively. It is unacceptable that the 17.10 from Bray continues to be 4 carriages, despite the fact that train after train in the other direction is always at least 6-8 going through the city centre with quite a few seats, whilst other direction people can't even stand.

I've not heard any suggestion that sets would be reduced to 4 car under this proposal - that would just be a nonsense.

But they will have to shorten some sets in order to deliver such timetable based on current carriage numbers?

dublindiehard

stehyl15 wrote: »

I wonder how these people complaining about the overcrowding would last in Mumbai

My frustration is not with the over-crowding per se, it's more the fact that capacity is not being matched to demand properly.

syklops

dublindiehard wrote: »

There's one 8520 near the North end of the depot as well which seems to ALWAYS be there apart from very rare occasions.

It's easily identifiable since all the underneath of it is silver and looking brand new and it looks repainted, but I've never seen it in service.

Sure you can't use that one, it's new!

cgcsb

stehyl15 wrote: »

I wonder how these people complaining about the overcrowding would last in Mumbai

Surely Dublin should be in a better state than any 3rd world City? no?

schemingbohemia

dublindiehard wrote: »

There will have to be a reduction in tran sizes to deliver the level of frequency that is being proposed unless there is a tender out for stock that I do not know about?

Essentially what is being proposed is an increase in frequency of 50% and there is nowhere near enough carriages to run even all the new services at such frequency in peak time even with 4 carriages.

Therefore some trains will need to be shortened to allow there to be enough capacity to allow for the increased frequency and it's going to require at least 32 carriages to add the new services in without effecting sexisting train lengths.

They have stock that they're not using. How do you think they were operating 6 and 8 car sets (on the same(ish) timetable) back in 2007?

Do you think they were operating 4 car sets all along and with the downturn they suddenly got full?

Captain Chaos

Before 2007 the DARTs were just as frequent as they are now and no sets were shorter than 6 cars and most being 8 cars long. At 16:58 and 17:04 north bound at Connolly each day, the first is always a 6 car LHB set jammed to the doors and around 400 people leave it at Connolly for the Sligo train, the one after is always a 4 car 85xx set that is standing room only and jammed to the doors during school term.

There are 17 4 car sets and 38 2 car sets. You can make 9 8 car sets from the LHB DARTs and have maintenance spares and 8 8 cars sets from the 8500s and have 1 set spare as maintenance. That's 17 8 car sets max that can be deployed with the current fleet. But in reality there is more needed as maintenance spares as sets have to be dragged to Drogheda and Inchicore for wheel turning and other stuff that can't be done at Fairview.

I reckon a realistic max is 14 8 car sets at peak times, so 7 full trains each way. That's what it was like in the boom times. I reckon they need more EMUs to replace the 5 2 car sets they lost with 8200s that were a bad buy to begin with and the 2 2 car LHB sets they lost in the fire at Fairview that some of the 8200 order was to replace. The DART fleet is 7 2 car sets less than if should be.

dublindiehard

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They have stock that they're not using. How do you think they were operating 6 and 8 car sets (on the same(ish) timetable) back in 2007?

Same timetable is a key word here.

The new timebable will require more sets than were in use in the past. If the additional trains will be four cars each, it will require 16 carriages an hour to be added for four car trains.

If you take into account that a dart set roughly takes 1hr 20 mins to complete it's journey end to end, and 10 mins roughly idle time at terminus it will mean to run the timetable, a further 24 carriages will be required at least above what is in use now to deliver that timetable if the new services were to be formed of additional carriages only, at four cars only and without removing carriages from other services.

Captain Chaos

If they finish DASH 2 they can run more trains through the loop line per hour and in theory they can reduce end to end running times that as it is has far too much padding. As it is they could take 10mins of that time easily. Alot of time is lost being held on the Howth branch waiting for late running Commuter and Enterprise services, also alot of time is lost waiting at Tara Street while Commuter trains are shunting between Pearse and Grand Canal Dock.

end of the road

dublindiehard wrote: »

My frustration is not with the over-crowding per se, it's more the fact that capacity is not being matched to demand properly.

exactly. and its a reasonable, legitimate point. we know a service such as the dart will have some overcrowding, the problem is in this country, that services have what is called unnecessary overcrowding. this is overcrowding caused by factors that can be controled and sorted out, such as short trains where longer are needed, and the infrastructure not being used to its maximum potential. other similar services around the world have what is called necessary overcrowding. this is caused by factors that can't really be controlled and sorted out such as, the trains being at the maximum length possible, and the infrastructure being maxed out and can't be used any more then currently, as it can't be extended or upgraded.

stehyl15

cgcsb wrote: »

Surely Dublin should be in a better state than any 3rd world City? no?

At least in mumbai they use all their resources dont think they have too many perfectly good mark 3s or alstom cars lying idle

LXFlyer

dublindiehard wrote: »

Same timetable is a key word here.

The new timebable will require more sets than were in use in the past. If the additional trains will be four cars each, it will require 16 carriages an hour to be added for four car trains.

If you take into account that a dart set roughly takes 1hr 20 mins to complete it's journey end to end, and 10 mins roughly idle time at terminus it will mean to run the timetable, a further 24 carriages will be required at least above what is in use now to deliver that timetable if the new services were to be formed of additional carriages only, at four cars only and without removing carriages from other services.

Let's just dispel this nonsense about trains having to be reduced to four car sets, because that is what it is (and apologies for being blunt about it).

End to end running time is 1 hour 10 minutes from either Malahide or Howth to Bray (and 10 minutes extra to Greystones).

A 10 minute DART frequency, maintaining the 30 minute frequency to/from Greystones, requires 17 sets to deliver the timetable, allowing 10 minutes to turn around at each terminus.

Allowing for maintenance cover you could potentially operate that with 11 eight-car trains and 6 six-car trains.

No need to operate 4 car trains anywhere at peak.

So, please stop this nonsense about having to shorten trains to 4 cars.

devnull

The problem with the 17.10 from Bray is not just down to carriages, it's a combination of carriages and the timetable and the lack of Northern Commuter train between the previous DART half an hour earlier and itself, pretty much all the other half hourly Malahide trains have a commuter inbetween.

However you'd think with the fact that it has such a long gap, with no limited stop service between it and the previous dart, would make it a nailed on choice for at least a 6 car. A timetable recast to eliminate this kind of problem would also lessen the load on the 17.10 from Bray if it had some kind of relief.

end of the road

stehyl15 wrote: »

At least in mumbai they use all their resources dont think they have too many perfectly good mark 3s or alstom cars lying idle

the mark 3s are mostly scrapped bar a few in preservation and some gone for the bellmont express service. no point in going down that route again though. the alsthom 8200 darts are junk. unless something can be done to gut them and convert them cheeply to simple trailor cars (which is unlikely) they won't be back in service. i don't even know what condition they are in . the 2700 DMUS might be back but its a case of wait and see.

stehyl15

4 car trains should be resricted to weekends only

Spanish Eyes

I have taken the DART on weekdays around midday going south, and around 4pm going North.

I have no idea about "sets", but those trains are BIIIG! Almost filling the platforms at either end.

If there is a funding shortage how come longer trains are on the line outside of the peak hours?

Honestly, four carriages per journey at peak times? Is someone having a laugh!

I don't know how you do it. But there is something wrong when longer trains operate during the off peak, and shorter ones during the peak.

Daft.

But as an infrequent user of DART, I am sure there is a very intelligent explanation for this practice!

dublindiehard

1710 from bray standing room only at salthill tonight. People unable to board at pearse

Eugene Norman

The excuses for reducing the carriages, basically loss of revenue due to reduced demand and high energy prices have reversed. 8 carriages for rush hour please.

LXFlyer

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The excuses for reducing the carriages, basically loss of revenue due to reduced demand and high energy prices have reversed. 8 carriages for rush hour please.

Yes, but PSO funding has not increased - it was cut last year and stayed the same this year. The company's finances are not suddenly sorted - far from it.

Added to that with the increased use of LEAP, with consequent fare reductions, extending the child fare to 18 year olds, it's quite possible that farebox revenue did not increase significantly last year. The LEAP90 discount will presumably also reduce farebox revenue, unless the increase in user numbers compensates for that.

There will have to be a period while the gap in the company's finances is fixed, and then with increased PSO funding in 2016 then hopefully we can move to expansion once again.

Spanish Eyes

But does anyone know why there are very long carriages out of peak, and very short ones AT peak?

Is it something to do with frequency at peak times maybe?

See my previous post!

Hollister11

dublindiehard wrote: »

rte.ie/news/2015/0409/692920-rail/

I'd much rather they address the chronic capacity issues on the Malahide branch at peak time which nobody seems interested in doing.

Over the last few weeks they continue to add carriages to trains which have a very small number of people standing, whilst allowing others to be crush loaded to the effect where people cannot board.

The Malahide - Greystones/Bray and vice versa, is an absolute nightmare. I get on every morning at 8.15 at Clongriffin, and there is never a seat. There is always standing room, but by the time you get to Killester, your squashed like sardines.

Eugene Norman

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But does anyone know why there are very long carriages out of peak, and very short ones AT peak?

Is it something to do with frequency at peak times maybe?

See my previous post!

Theres a train at about 17:30, early rush hour, which is 8 carriages going to Howth 5 minutes after the malahide train from pearse. Empty. At 6:20 which is high rush hour the Howth train is 4 carriages. Packed.

The latter isn't as crowded as say the central line, it's just the fact that it's tiny mid rush hour which bugs me.

stehyl15

I often wonder would the dart be better if it were hauled by an electric loco meaning that it would be more energy efficent to run longer trains it have to push pull of course