Junk Training

bryangiggsy

Interested in getting some opinions on the amount of junk training that is done by athletes out there. Have done my fair share of it over the years but as i get more wise in my years i would hazard a guess that 70% or more of the training done out there is junk miles. Whether goiing for the social club spin or attending that sportif (that has absolutely no correlation to tri) ..it all adds up. What do people think?

peter kern

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Interested in getting some opinions on the amount of junk training that is done by athletes out there. Have done my fair share of it over the years but as i get more wise in my years i would hazard a guess that 70% or more of the training done out there is junk miles. Whether goiing for the social club spin or attending that sportif (that has absolutely no correlation to tri) ..it all adds up. What do people think?

what are junk miles the 8 x 1 k reps that have you injured for 2 weeks ...
the 8x1 k after a stressful day at work that push you over the edge

or an easy social spin the day after an 8x1 k interval followed by a purposefull quality session the next day....

saying that a club spin or an sportive is junk miles is wrong as it can be perfect training as much as ****e training.

bryangiggsy

peter kern wrote: »

what are junk miles the 8 x 1 k reps that have you injured for 2 weeks ...
the 8x1 k after a stressful day at work that push you over the edge

or an easy social spin the day after an 8x1 k interval followed by a purposefull quality session the next day....

saying that a club spin or an sportive is junk miles is wrong as it can be perfect training as much as ****e training.

If you do a training session too hard then that session becomes junk no?
Then u fall into the trap . I went too hard yesterday so will go very easy today in the club spin. Going easy in a club spin is not possible since you go at the pace of the group not your pace. Another junk session

shansey

I never fully understood junk miles.. recently read that article on the whole 80/20 thing..

What i took from it was that if youre not in your hard/interval session then you should be going at an easy pace..

Is it that junk miles are neither easy or hard?

Oryx

Junk miles are wasted miles, for whatever reason. Training when tired, at someone elses pace, or at the wrong effort level. I have done many many junk miles in my time.

bryangiggsy

shansey wrote: »

I never fully understood junk miles.. recently read that article on the whole 80/20 thing..

What i took from it was that if youre not in your hard/interval session then you should be going at an easy pace..

Is it that junk miles are neither easy or hard?

I would define junk miles as training in a zone that adds no value to the training plan as a whole

tunney

One mans junk miles are another mans not-junk miles.

Also there is a tendency by some, not saying the OP is, to dismiss the work done by others as junk if (a) its not understood (b) the person cannot replicate the volume.

What is junk? A very very difficult question and to be honest Peter answered it perfectly in the first reply.

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

I would define junk miles as training in a zone that adds no value to the training plan as a whole

Unless you know the tune that someone hears how can you tell if they are dancing out of step?

Tom__jnr2

Every training should have some purpose. I go tonight for 60min easy run. It is the junk miles session. Perhaps it is... but it is also beween tempo runs yesterday and tomorrow. So the goal od this run is to recover.

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

Unless you know the tune that someone hears how can you tell if they are dancing out of step?

You can't. Was merely comparing my experience in training as a mid level age grouper and applying as a whole.

bryangiggsy

Tom__jnr2 wrote: »

Every training should have some purpose. I go tonight for 60min easy run. It is the junk miles session. Perhaps it is... but it is also beween tempo runs yesterday and tomorrow. So the goal od this run is to recover.

right if its recovery run and your tempo pace is 4.30 per km lets say...... there is a difference between a recovery run at 5.00 per km and 5.15 per km

Oryx

I think the main problem for agers is that we dont know what our own personal junk miles are. Its a very difficult thing to quantify. But I guarantee if you are a slave to a generic plan, you are doing a lot of junk.

sconhome

To me junk mile were training sessions that had no clear goal or purpose other than clocking up sessions.

Depends on your goals as most of what I do would be junk to triathlon but integral to what I love doing now (not saying I don't do structure, mostly I don't though)

Tom__jnr2

bryangiggsy wrote: »

right if its recovery run and your tempo pace is 4.30 per km lets say...... there is a difference between a recovery run at 5.00 per km and 5.15 per km

IF your tempo runs are 4.30 and easy around 5.00 it means that you got wrong and both sessions are "junk miles".
It is sub 3.20 (long tempo) and 5.00 (easy runs) for me.

tunney

Tom__jnr2 wrote: »

IF your tempo runs are 4.30 and easy around 5.00 it means that you got wrong and both sessions are "junk miles".
It is sub 3.20 (long tempo) and 5.00 (easy runs) for me.

If your long tempo are 3.20 and your easy is 5.00 then at least one of those sessions are "junk miles"

Tom__jnr2

tunney wrote: »

If your long tempo are 3.20 and your easy is 5.00 then at least one of those sessions are "junk miles"

Not if easy run is done to recover. Otherwise could not agree more.

pgibbo

I'd have no issue with doing run junk miles if I could run 3:20 pace for a long tempo :pac:

It's not all about the physical either folks. Sometimes you just go and run/bike with friends or colleagues because it's a beautiful sunny day or you fancy training with company for a change. Some might consider it junk miles but if it's a mental break or a refreshing change then there's a benefit to be had.

bryangiggsy

Tom__jnr2 wrote: »

IF your tempo runs are 4.30 and easy around 5.00 it means that you got wrong and both sessions are "junk miles".
It is sub 3.20 (long tempo) and 5.00 (easy runs) for me.

U left out in your opinion but thanks for being a c..k

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

U left out in your opinion but thanks for being a c..k

He may be a c..k but you posted numbers, you started the discussion.
If you tempo pace is 4:30 and your easy is 5:00

A few possibilities:

• your easy is being done far far too hard
• your tempo is being done far far too easy
• you lost a leg in nam

You started the thread with a none too subtle dig at other peoples training, you cannot expect to not get responses when the numbers you post don't add up.

peter kern

bryangiggsy wrote: »

If you do a training session too hard then that session becomes junk no?
Then u fall into the trap . I went too hard yesterday so will go very easy today in the club spin. Going easy in a club spin is not possible since you go at the pace of the group not your pace. Another junk session

that very much depends on the level of the group if you go out with beginners it could be a perfect session for you and they would learn from you ( win win )
if you go with the fast guys than you could be right.( at the same time sometimes whats bad for you body can be good for your mind and to learn to suffer is a good thing to in moderation)

and if it was to become a junksession you leave the group simples. no shame to get dropped in training if you beat them in the race.

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

He may be a c..k but you posted numbers, you started the discussion.
If you tempo pace is 4:30 and your easy is 5:00

A few possibilities:

• your easy is being done far far too hard
• your tempo is being done far far too easy
• you lost a leg in nam

You started the thread with a none too subtle dig at other peoples training, you cannot expect to not get responses when the numbers you post don't add up.

U left out in your opinion too Dave. Why would I come on here and have a subtle dig about other peoples training? You don't know me very well if you think that.

peter kern

bryangiggsy wrote: »

I would define junk miles as training in a zone that adds no value to the training plan as a whole

ok so you are sayin that each zone only trains one thing ...
and they have no cross over .
i would suggest rather than zones you worry much more aobut your stress level sleeping times etc.

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

U left out in your opinion too Dave. Why would I come on here and have a subtle dig about other peoples training? You don't know me very well if you think that.

bryangiggsy wrote: »

i would hazard a guess that 70% or more of the training done out there is junk miles. Whether goiing for the social club spin or attending that sportif (that has absolutely no correlation to tri) ..it all adds up. What do people think?

That is a dig - not at anyone in particular.

I didn't put in "in my opinion" because its not an opinion. By any accepted definition of pace having easy and temp so close........

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

ok so you are sayin that each zone only trains one thing ...
and they have no cross over .
i would suggest rather than zones you worry much more aobut your stress level sleeping times etc.

What Peter is getting at here.

pgibbo

Let's keep things on topic folks and no personal digs please.

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

That is a dig - not at anyone in particular. but its a post that to some would scream "you are wasting your time". That's a dig.

As for "in my opinion" this isn't the court in "The Good Wife" and you're not Alicia Florec. I didn't put in "in my opinion" because its not an opinion. By any accepted definition of pace having easy and temp so close is bull.

I let my coach know 'THE GREAT TUNNEY' has spoken and demand my plan be changed.:rolleyes:

peter kern

bryangiggsy wrote: »

right if its recovery run and your tempo pace is 4.30 per km lets say...... there is a difference between a recovery run at 5.00 per km and 5.15 per km

not really again you seem to think that you need to do something at an exact intesity to do it right
there is more a difference runing 30 min 60 min and 90 min ;-)
so 30 min at 5 min fine and likely better than 60 min at 5.15 if as pure recovery run .
but nothing that would be junk miles. as again the time you sleep and the stress you have would have an higher impact than going 5 or 5.15 pace.

tunney

Daniels Running Formula (Human Kinetics) wrote:

"A tempo run is nothing more than 20 minutes of steady running at threshold pace."

Pete Pfitzinger wrote:

"For very fit runners, the pace is between 15K and half-marathon race pace." For those fond of using heart rate monitors, Daniels notes that tempo runs are done at 90% of maximum.

If 4:30 is your threshold pace I would suggest just changing coach rather than letting him know what I said.

tunney

What is a junk mile?

An interesting topic and somewhat relevant to me at the moment. What I am doing at the moment is the epitome of junk miles. No plan, no target, no goals no consistency.

I swim, bike and run and were I more inexperienced I could consider myself training. However I'm not that inexperienced so I know I'm just doing junk miles.

To me a junk mile is a mile without focus, a mile without a goal, a session without a place in a bigger plan. The plan need not be detailed nor even written down but one has to exist.

A sportif can have a place in a plan.
A coffee stop ride can have a place in a plan. I gave one to someone a few weeks back because they needed it. With a 5:30 400m TT, a >400watt FTP and a 33 10km SB they can move but the coffee stop ride fitted perfectly for where they were and the mood they were in.

If its planned, if it has purpose, if it has a goal - then its not junk.

peter kern

btw its actually a really good question bryan asked.
and tunnys table could be useful for some.

bryangiggsy

peter kern wrote: »

not really again you seem to think that you need to do something at an exact intesity to do it right
there is more a difference runing 30 min 60 min and 90 min ;-)
so 30 min at 5 min fine and likely better than 60 min at 5.15 if as pure recovery run .
but nothing that would be junk miles. as again the time you sleep and the stress you have would have an higher impact than going 5 or 5.15 pace.

I agree Peter re stress and sleep but if you can only control that to a certain point ie with kids then you have to get bang for your buck elsehwere. If someone has only 12/13 hrs to train a week I would want to make them count. Everyone is entitled to their opinion yet people coming on here and attacking a poster with their keyboard when they dont know the full story hours,paces,hr,watts or background is pathetic.