When Do You Say Enough is Enough

Bettyboop

My dog a 7yr old shih-tzu has been suffering with a skin infection for almost
5 months now,He has had skin scrapes been given shampoo €44,steroid
treatment antibiotics which he is still on and pain killers. Vets bill well over the €1000 and more to come. I am awaiting a skin biopsy which wasnt cheap and still he is unable to walk far and has a buster collar on him for weeks.
He is losing weight and is miserable. I love my dog but hate to see him struggle every day. I bring him to bed with me every night and I have to put towels on the bed as the scabs from his feet fall off and he is left with
horrible red sore skin. I am thinking of putting him out of his misery as this is
going on too long and he has no quality of life. Am I been selfish?Money is another reason I am sad to say. I am on social welfare and my other bills
are taken a back seat at the moment.I could post pics of his legs but you would be sickened and horrified as to how he looks. He is also on hypoallergenic dog
food wet and dry which is €3.30 a tin and dry food is €33 a bag. I know it might not sound a lot but I feel we are fighting a losing battle.

Knine

Has he had blood tests to rule out kidney/liver problems?

What type of shampoos did you use? I have seen great results with polytar being used? I'm talking very strong stuff - used for treating psorasis on humans. Have you added any oils to his diet? - evening primrose oil or Salmon Oil?

Sounds awful for both you & the dog.

Bettyboop

Knine wrote: »

Has he had blood tests to rule out kidney/liver problems?

What type of shampoos did you use? I have seen great results with polytar being used? I'm talking very strong stuff - used for treating psorasis on humans. Have you added any oils to his diet? - evening primrose oil or Salmon Oil?

Sounds awful for both you & the dog.

Malaseb shampoo,yes had blood tests and am adding coconut oil to his food:)

scudzilla

As you're on social welfare have you tried somewhere like The Blue Cross, who help in cases like this

Satori Rae

One of my dogs suffers from hay fever as a result we think this helped kicked of his seasonal alopecia.

If your vet runs all these tests and they come back clear, chances are it could be this. So I would definitely talk to your vet about it.

Does your dog itch , scratch a lot? Sneeze's and have runny eyes?

Also if you live in the country this could be a big factor. Our vet told us to get normal antihistamines to give to our pooch as a preemptive strike just before pollination kicks off, he still can get runny eyes but he no longer tries to chew his own paw off or such.

Your vet will have to tell you the right size of dose to give your dog first. Since we do that and stay on hypoallergenic food our boy is back to him old self pretty much.

I hope your pooch will be ok and this helps I definitely understand how you feel .

Inexile

I would be hanging on in there until at least the results of the skin biopsy come back.

I think its a bit odd that a 7 year old dog has only recently, well 5 month, developed the problem so it would suggest to me that its something that can be sorted.

If it was a pup or younger do I would think it may be a life long condition but it doesn't sound it from what you describe. Of course I have zilch medical knowledge so my opinion isn't worth a lot. But hang in and a solution may be found until you know what the cause is its hard to treat it.

aonb

My heart goes out to you.

Do you have confidence in your vet?
If you are 100% confident in your vet and the skin biopsy comes back with something that can be treated, that would be great.

If not, and money is a major issue, and your dog is suffering, and you are getting no where, and cant afford to do any more, then dont beat yourself up about considering having your dog put to sleep. There is only so much you can do, when you have spent so much money that other bills are being put on the back burner when you are on welfare. If you love your dog, and cant afford to continue with vets & meds & special diet etc. then you have done your very best. If the dogs quality of life is poor or deteriorating, you are thinking about his suffering too.

The only other thing I would suggest is to get a second opinion from another vet. Also it would definately be worthwhile finding out after the biopsy if the Blue Cross could help you at all, when you are on social welfare - that is one of their primary functions.

Whatever you decide to do, you obviously love your dog, and you will make the best decision for his sake.

Bettyboop

Satori Rae wrote: »

One of my dogs suffers from hay fever as a result we think this helped kicked of his seasonal alopecia.

If your vet runs all these tests and they come back clear, chances are it could be this. So I would definitely talk to your vet about it.

Does your dog itch , scratch a lot? Sneeze's and have runny eyes?

Also if you live in the country this could be a big factor. Our vet told us to get normal antihistamines to give to our pooch as a preemptive strike just before pollination kicks off, he still can get runny eyes but he no longer tries to chew his own paw off or such.

Your vet will have to tell you the right size of dose to give your dog first. Since we do that and stay on hypoallergenic food our boy is back to him old self pretty much.

I hope your pooch will be ok and this helps I definitely understand how you feel .

he has had numerous anti histamine injections and was also no 2 antihistamine tabs a day

Caution not pretty pics

Satori Rae

Bettyboop wrote: »

he has had numerous anti histamine injections and was also no 2 antihistamine tabs a day

This is a real stumper I have heard of this breed being prone to issues skin issues slightly looked into them (as I was considering in getting one).

Is there any other symptoms? You could try contact a breeder or a branch of the kennel club maybe it could be something to do within the breed and they might be able to help?

Was there a test for cushing's disease done?

Bettyboop

Satori Rae wrote: »

This is a real stumper I have heard of this breed being prone to issues skin issues slightly looked into them (as I was considering in getting one).

Is there any other symptoms? You could try contact a breeder or a branch of the kennel club maybe it could be something to do within the breed and they might be able to help?

Was there a test for cushing's disease done?

Had him at 2 different vets ,1st suggested iodine baths which I did
and now 2nd vet has carried out numerous skin scrapes but showed up
nothing has been treated for parasites using tablets shampoos dips and injections. Hoping biopsy will show up something after that is an allergy test at
€450 meanwhile the suffering goes on:(

andreac

What are you feeding him? Has that been looked in to?

Bettyboop

andreac wrote: »

What are you feeding him? Has that been looked in to?

he is on Hills z/d allergy management dry food and tins of wet food for 4 months now

Satori Rae

Bettyboop wrote: »

Had him at 2 different vets ,1st suggested iodine baths which I did
and now 2nd vet has carried out numerous skin scrapes but showed up
nothing has been treated for parasites using tablets shampoos dips and injections. Hoping biopsy will show up something after that is an allergy test at
€450 meanwhile the suffering goes on:(

Poor little thing I just seen the photos now, there nothing like what my guy had.

However there is only one other thing I could think of, there is a type of mange that can be passed onto puppies from their mothers it can take a while to surface most puppies live with that type fine but sometimes it can appear out of nowhere, bear in mind I read this a long time ago when I was trying to find out what was going on with my dog. So what I am remembering from 2yrs back is sketchy at best.

I would say maybe see another vet for a fresh opinion.
Obliviously try hold out a bit longer 7 is still young and there might be hope in a second opinion

Going to a 2nd vet was the best thing I ever did I got the right diagnosis in under 2 minutes compared to 3 days of being kept in, in the other vets.

toadfly

Did he improve at all with the change of food? What were you feeding before? Where in the country are you?

Bettyboop

toadfly wrote: »

Did he improve at all with the change of food? What were you feeding before? Where in the country are you?

No change of food hasn't made any difference though he is still on it
was feeding bakers and Naturo .Live in Co.wicklow and no mange was my 1st thought too but vets ruled that out.

muddypaws

Has the vet mentioned thyroid issues at all, and investigated for them?

I'm sure you've thought of this, but what about cleaning products that you use in the house? When you wash the floors, do you keep him away until they have dried completely? Have you changed your washing powder? Do you use shake and vac on carpets?

I've found that there are more and more cleaning products that I can't use, as the companies change the components and something in them makes me wheezy, itchy etc. Maybe something changed in something you use, try really basic stuff for cleaning instead of chemicals, vinegar, baking soda, and see if that makes any difference?

I would definitely second the suggestion above that you contact the breeder, and breed club, there may be something that Shih Tzus are prone to that your vet may be unaware of. For instance, huskies can suffer from ZRD, which is common knowledge within the breed, but most vets will never have come across a case, so wouldn't automatically think of testing for zinc deficiency.

Best of luck, it must be heartbreaking to see him like this.

maggiepip

Your poor dog, thats dreadful altogether. There's a natural product called Dermacton - google at www.aromesse.com, which some people have genuinely found to work wonders. Ive used it on my own itchy dog some years back and found it great. I know your little dog is quite severe but its worth a shot considering. Ive read many rave reviews about it on independent forums where it has helped some severe skin conditions. Dog probiotics are very helpful too as the gut is so linked to the immune system. Wish you the best.

Bettyboop

maggiepip wrote: »

Your poor dog, thats dreadful altogether. There's a natural product called Dermacton - google at www.aromesse.com, which some people have genuinely found to work wonders. Ive used it on my own itchy dog some years back and found it great. I know your little dog is quite severe but its worth a shot considering. Ive read many rave reviews about it on independent forums where it has helped some severe skin conditions. Dog probiotics are very helpful too as the gut is so linked to the immune system. Wish you the best.

Was giving him natural yogurt when one paw was infected but vet advised me to stop.He has a bad smell which I advised vet that it might be thrush, but he dismissed this. I have tried lots of herbal remedies ie cider vinegar in his water
T.tree oil diluted.calamine lotion, sudocrem and some herbal remedies too.

maggiepip

I also forgot to mention that I found a gluten free, and preferably grain and gluten free diet enormously helpful for my dogs skin.

Bettyboop

muddypaws wrote: »

Has the vet mentioned thyroid issues at all, and investigated for them?

I'm sure you've thought of this, but what about cleaning products that you use in the house? When you wash the floors, do you keep him away until they have dried completely? Have you changed your washing powder? Do you use shake and vac on carpets?

I've found that there are more and more cleaning products that I can't use, as the companies change the components and something in them makes me wheezy, itchy etc. Maybe something changed in something you use, try really basic stuff for cleaning instead of chemicals, vinegar, baking soda, and see if that makes any difference?

I would definitely second the suggestion above that you contact the breeder, and breed club, there may be something that Shih Tzus are prone to that your vet may be unaware of. For instance, huskies can suffer from ZRD, which is common knowledge within the breed, but most vets will never have come across a case, so wouldn't automatically think of testing for zinc deficiency.

Best of luck, it must be heartbreaking to see him like this.

no nothing changed regarding cleanining products. I have tiled floors all downstairs and clean them with a disinfectant that vets and groomers use.

Dubl07

Your poor little dog - I feel for you both. You thought thrush, I was thinking yeast infection. Can you get a second opinion?
Food: Would raw, homecooked or at least grain-free be options for you? You'd probably find raw/homecooked cheaper than the dried but would need advice on the proportions of meat-types.
Environment: If he comes to bed with you, did you change your duvet/cover around the time this started? If it's infection, can you steam clean rather than use disinfectant?
Stress: Has part of your mutual routine changed in the last year?
Rest: If walking's making him miserable, and with legs like that I'm sure it is, indoor fetch, ball-games and mental exercise will probably more than suffice.

Maggiepip's Dermacton link looks brilliant. I've bookmarked it and just hope that some of the input here will help you, even if it comes down to the worst.

toadfly

Bettyboop wrote: »

No change of food hasn't made any difference though he is still on it
was feeding bakers and Naturo .Live in Co.wicklow and no mange was my 1st thought too but vets ruled that out.

I'd be inclined to try a fresh diet for him, either raw or home cooked. It can make the world of difference.

Millem

Omg OP your poor little dog. I bought that dermacton...in the spray..found it useless to be honest. My dog used to try and like it off. I had my dog on that hills food too. I find the burns dry food the best for her. I am convinced there is a link with beet pulp and her skin/ear problems. My girl's skin hasn't been great this year now nothing on your poor little dog.
My girl's paws go red and her belly gets red and spots. She has been on 3 doses of antibiotics this year.

Would you consider a raw diet?

andreac

Def get him off dried food for a start anyway. That Bakers is the worst thing you could feed. Not sure if Naturo is much better.

I would give him home cooked or a raw food diet too as someone else suggested. No dried treats or anything out of a packet doggy wise as they are usually full of additives and crap that isnt good for them.

Frigga_92

Jesus Bettyboop your poor dog

Just trying to think of anything worth considering, any change in washing powder being used on items that he would come into contact with?

Like others have said, would you think of changing his food to something home cooked so you know exactly what's in it?

Bettyboop

toadfly wrote: »

I'd be inclined to try a fresh diet for him, either raw or home cooked. It can make the world of difference.

had been boiling skinless chicken for him and stewing veg but vet advised
to only use the hills diet he prescribed.

muddypaws

Bettyboop wrote: »

had been boiling skinless chicken for him and stewing veg but vet advised
to only use the hills diet he prescribed.

Whilst I do think people should listen to their vets, if it isn't making the condition better, then I would consider feeding something different. If it is an allergic reaction to a food ingredient, it could be in that particular food. Just looked at the ingredients, and it is predominantly chicken based, unfortunately, chicken is becoming a big issue with dogs, and I believe, is the most common meat that causes dietary issues.

The only way to work out if it is a food issue is by feeding a total exclusion diet for 6 weeks, which is very hard to do, it means no treats etc, and not allowing the dog to pick things up while out on walks. If you don't want to go down the raw or home cooked diet, maybe try something like James Wellbeloved grain free, or a similar, salmon and potato food, and see how you get on, just make sure it only has a single protein source in it, and that is not chicken. At this stage, I can't see that it would do any harm.

toadfly

I agree with muddypaws, my dog was on dry before I moved her to raw. She had lost a third of her body weight, was skin and bone. Tried everything, those specialist foods that cost €90 a day, vitamin injections every week, exploratory surgery and nothing worked. They didn't advise me to try her on raw but then they would lose the sale but I did and shes doing great on it.

Done exclusion diet, for 6 weeks I only gave her chicken. No reaction and she was gradually gaining weight. Gradually added in one other food at a time for 3 weeks each, made sure there was no reaction etc. She now eats all raw but some cooked veg/spuds occasionally. Only thing she reacted to was raw egg, everything else ok. Shes great now, vet couldn't believe it, was very cynical when I mentioned it but so glad I went ahead against their advice. They don't know everything, especially where food is concerned.

I had insurance but claimed over €2500 with everything.

borderlinemeath

Vets in general get very little nutritional training, in fact most of it comes from the food reps of the brands sold in their surgeries. You'll find most courses are sponsored by the main dry food companies that insist that feeding dry food is best. It's very big business to them. Very few vets will be open to treating holistically or trying a raw or fresh diet, and there's no money to be made by the likes of Hills or RC for dogs on homemade food so it's routinely discouraged.

Your dog could be reacting to the grain in the food (hills is full of it) or even the protein source, or even the storage mites that live in every bag of every brand of dry dog food. The wet food sold in supermarkets is no good, but there are plenty of nutritional wet foods available, but again if it's a protein source reaction then it would be best to stick to raw or fresh food to start. Fish and fish oils are fantastic for irritated skin, some fresh fish or sardines mixed with some mashed potato makes a lovely tasty meal. Fishmongers will always sell off scraps for cheap too, fish heads and tails will make a lovely stock (if you can stomach cooking it!)

Here's a thread with plenty of advice and even a few recipes throughout if you fancy a read through it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80681796

kathleen37

Hi OP - I tried replying with some links to shih-tzu specific web sites, but as I'm a "new user" it didn't allow me too, so I've sent you a pm.

I do hope you get your boy sorted. Hopefully, if you can speak to some of the breed specific people, that may have some advice to offer, especially in relation to suggestions for your vet.

Take care

Satori Rae

I wonder since it's just the legs and paws did he run through any field's with the possibility of pesticides after being sprayed?

doubter

Bettyboop wrote: »

had been boiling skinless chicken for him and stewing veg but vet advised
to only use the hills diet he prescribed.

Not much nutrients in only boiled chickens. My one sled had a similar type of skin problem (only very local, they were called hot spots) drove him mental. No real cause for them. I've changed him a while back to mainly raw food, and raw liver twice a week (great for the pancreas) haven't seen any since. Also , I shaved the area around the irritating spot to avoid more licking and would treat it with high range Manuka honey.Haven't seen any spots in about 7 months.

kylith

What Hills food are you feeding? I had a look at a couple of the Skin Health ones there and they all seem to have pork fat, which doesn't suit a lot of dogs.

Bettyboop

Biopsy results back he has Demodex Mange will be treated with 1 unlicensed
tablet and antibiotics.Deeper skin scrapes in a months time then another.
If both are clear we are on the home stretch:) If not his immune system will be checked out for underlying causes.Apperently we have that mite in our eyebrows:eek:Thank you all for your support replies links etc I am delighted
I finally got a result after all these months.
All your help and advice is greatly appreciated:)

Frigga_92

That's good news Bettyboop. Hopefully he'll be feeling a lot better soon and back to his old self

The Th!ng

About 15 years ago the travellers in a halting site near to where I work had a greyhound that was absolutely hairless from mange. When I first saw the poor dog I was sure that it was going to have to be put to sleep he was in such a bad condition. About a week after that some of the travellers called in to my workplace with the same dog for a pair of rubber gloves and a few gallons of waste engine oil. I watched as they covered the dog from head to foot in the oil and they rubbed it into his skin, honestly the dog looked like something out of the Alien films, the only white things I could see were the whites of his eyes. They left the dog go and he ran off up the road.

A few weeks later I saw the same dog and there wasn't even one bit of mange on him and his hair had started to grow back :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Bettyboop

The Th!ng wrote: »

About 15 years ago the travellers in a halting site near to where I work had a greyhound that was absolutely hairless from mange. When I first saw the poor dog I was sure that it was going to have to be put to sleep he was in such a bad condition. About a week after that some of the travellers called in to my workplace with the same dog for a pair of rubber gloves and a few gallons of waste engine oil. I watched as they covered the dog from head to foot in the oil and they rubbed it into his skin, honestly the dog looked like something out of the Alien films, the only white things I could see were the whites of his eyes. They left the dog go and he ran off up the road.

A few weeks later I saw the same dog and there wasn't even one bit of mange on him and his hair had started to grow back :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

That treats sarcoptic mange they use that treatment a lot in the States:(

tk123

My friend's dog was on the same Hills and had no luck with it either for their itchy dog. They're no trying him with GAIN on the advise of their breeder.. Not grasping the whole cereals = a probably cause of itchiness thing.

kathleen37

I'm so pleased and really hope that's it and all gets sorted for you both really quickly.

Please let us know how you get on.

Alicat

Bettyboop wrote: »

Biopsy results back he has Demodex Mange will be treated with 1 unlicensed
tablet and antibiotics.Deeper skin scrapes in a months time then another.
If both are clear we are on the home stretch:) If not his immune system will be checked out for underlying causes.Apperently we have that mite in our eyebrows:eek:Thank you all for your support replies links etc I am delighted
I finally got a result after all these months.
All your help and advice is greatly appreciated:)

Actually we have them all over our face, but eyelashes and eyebrows are a favourite place for them to gather apparently! Demodex mites (or rather, the reaction to their excrement) are becoming something that Doctors are looking at as a cause of Rosacea in humans.

Your pooch is the second dog in the space of two weeks that I've heard of that is being treated for a Demodex infestation. I'm guessing they stuff they prescribed is Ivermectin? Be interested to hear how you get on, as the other dog I know of is also suspected to have a problem with her immune system.

thefinalstage

We had a Sheitzu-Yorkie mix with a very similar issue, previous owner did all the stuff. Biopsy, the like. Massaging coconut oil on her really helped it. You get the tubs, It's about 12 euro or so in a health food shop and it's non toxic to dogs in fact it's good for em (unless they are allergic like all things). Give it a try for a while, your dog will love the contact all the same cause often times when skin conditions come about they don't get enough rubs!

doubter

Bettyboop wrote: »

Biopsy results back he has Demodex Mange will be treated with 1 unlicensed
tablet and antibiotics.Deeper skin scrapes in a months time then another.
If both are clear we are on the home stretch:) If not his immune system will be checked out for underlying causes.Apperently we have that mite in our eyebrows:eek:Thank you all for your support replies links etc I am delighted
I finally got a result after all these months.
All your help and advice is greatly appreciated:)

odd though that the vet didn't pick up/think about it first, rather than doing all these tests.Would have thought Mange would have been ruled out first thing..happy it's resolved though. well done for sticking with him.:)

Karen91

Bettyboop wrote: »

had been boiling skinless chicken for him and stewing veg but vet advised
to only use the hills diet he prescribed.

My pomeranian was suffering from skin allergies when feeding her hills personally I would not listen to your vet about the hills diet prescribed. I eventually took matters into my own hands when my little ones skin did not clear up and switched her to grain free diet canagan country game and there hasnt been a problem since. The vet also prescribed a hills diet for her and it did not work.

I would suggest trying a home cooked diet and see how that goes.

Bettyboop

Alicat wrote: »

Actually we have them all over our face, but eyelashes and eyebrows are a favourite place for them to gather apparently! Demodex mites (or rather, the reaction to their excrement) are becoming something that Doctors are looking at as a cause of Rosacea in humans.

Your pooch is the second dog in the space of two weeks that I've heard of that is being treated for a Demodex infestation. I'm guessing they stuff they prescribed is Ivermectin? Be interested to hear how you get on, as the other dog I know of is also suspected to have a problem with her immune system.

No it was a one tablet Bravecto €53 administered 3 days ago slight improvement but not much.

Bettyboop

thefinalstage wrote: »

We had a Sheitzu-Yorkie mix with a very similar issue, previous owner did all the stuff. Biopsy, the like. Massaging coconut oil on her really helped it. You get the tubs, It's about 12 euro or so in a health food shop and it's non toxic to dogs in fact it's good for em (unless they are allergic like all things). Give it a try for a while, your dog will love the contact all the same cause often times when skin conditions come about they don't get enough rubs!

Was using the coconut oil in food and on his body 1st item I bought, then tea tree oil ,fish oils etc

Bettyboop

doubter wrote: »

odd though that the vet didn't pick up/think about it first, rather than doing all these tests.Would have thought Mange would have been ruled out first thing..happy it's resolved though. well done for sticking with him.:)

I mentioned to the 1st vet I saw that I thought it was Mange
but he dismissed this with a laugh
2nd vet I mentioned mange or yeast infection because of the smell
but she said it was an allergic reaction so he went through 5 months
of been treated for allergies while the Mange got a stronger hold:(

Frigga_92

How is he now Bettyboop?

Bettyboop

Frigga_92 wrote: »

How is he now Bettyboop?

Not much improved to be honest he still goes mad with the itch
and is red as ever. Taking antibiotics too. Not sure if I should see any
improvement yet or if he needs a few more Bravecto tablets.He is skin and
bone but I am feeding him more and often. Don't think all the antibiotics
and steroid treatments have helped his immune system after been on
them continuously for 5 months. Its a waiting game again. But appreciate
you asking about him:)

Frigga_92

Bettyboop wrote: »

Not much improved to be honest he still goes mad with the itch
and is red as ever. Taking antibiotics too. Not sure if I should see any
improvement yet or if he needs a few more Bravecto tablets.He is skin and
bone but I am feeding him more and often. Don't think all the antibiotics
and steroid treatments have helped his immune system after been on
them continuously for 5 months. Its a waiting game again. But appreciate
you asking about him:)

Aw, sorry to hear there hasn't been a huge improvement Bettyboop. It must be very frustrating for you playing the waiting game still
I hope it's just a case of the treatment building up and you see a change in him soon.

Heskey1971

Hi bettyboop

Sorry to hear about your dog

I have a St Bernard and for nearly a year her ears were red raw with infection, tried everything with the vet and it cost a fortune as she had to be knocked out to get ehr ears cleaned every few months.
We then went to a food shop and we were told that if a dog is allergic to chicken it shows up by ear infections. Cut out chicken, no more infections in 3 years. Vet never even thought of this.

My point is that the vets will try and try but if the cause is deeper it will never work.
Id try a new vet with new ideas and a fresh eye, there's a brilliant vet who genuinely cares in Rathoath who also deals with exotic animals. He may think of something that may help.

PM if you want his name and number

We had gone to a stage where our dog would even let us touch her ears and I had to man handle an 11 stone animal to put in drops and we were at our wits end but it got better. Keep hope.

DBB

The dog has been diagnosed with Demodex mites, so whilst a longer-term plan to change diet to help balance his immunity is certainly worth serious consideration, no advice to change diet is going to help this dog with the immediate problem at hand.
Perhaps our vet/vet nurse posters can correct me on this, but I'd be concerned that Bravecto is not indicated for the treatment of Demodex. It's licensed as a flea and tick treatment, and whilst ticks and mites are related (they both belong to the sub-class Acari, and Bravecto is an acaricide), Demodex tends to need very targeted, regular, strong treatments to get to grips with it compared to ticks. The lack of licensing for it in the treatment of the dog's immediate health problems has me worried.
Hopefully my concerns are unfounded, but if he were my dog, I'd want to know for sure about the soundness of the rationale for using this product.