Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Clamping in residential area

  • 03-04-2015 2:19am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭


    Decided I'd pose this question here, seeing as the law around clamping in Ireland is a bit vague, from what I've read so far.

    The missus is living in an apartment complex in Dublin, which has parking for residents. She is registered as a resident with the management company of the apartment building, and her car and plate are also registered with management. This gives her the right to park anywhere on the property. That's an important point.
    Last week, she was clamped twice by NCPS, who are contracted by the management. She was clamped inside the property, where she has the right to park, and her parking disk was clearly visible on the dashboard on both occasions. She hasn't ever moved it or touched it since she moved in t September, it's always sitting on the dash.

    The first time she was clamped, she rang NCPS and no matter what she asked or said the guy on the phone just kept repeating "pay the fine, pay the fine, pay the fine". So she paid it anyway and began an appeal straight away, which takes 28 days to be even looked at. Two nights later, parked in the exact same spot, she was clamped again because the parking disk "was not visible". It was sitting on the dashboard!!!

    Again she had to pay the fine to get unclamped and began another appeals procedure.
    The feeling I'm getting from this is that NCPS are taking the piss with her. She paid the first fine, and now they're just gonna clamp her whenever they feel like it. I hate the thought of her being looked at like a stupid cash cow by them. She's now terrified to even park beside her own apartment in case she wakes up to go to work and finds the car clamped again. The management company washed their hands of it saying it had nothing to do with them, it's between her and the clampers.

    So the legal question I want to ask is, in her case, where she is a registered tenant, and her car is registered with the management of the property, and she has her parking permit on full display in her car, is she legally allowed to remove the clamp herself? They posted a sticker on her car saying she could be fined thousands if she tampered with the clamp, but I was under the impression that a car can only be clamped if it is parked illegally? Her car is in no way illegally parked, so can I remove the clamp if this happens again?

    Sorry for the long post, but as I said I can't find much legislation to cover this area of the law. Also, I wanted to provide as much detail as possible to any of you guys having a read of this and who know this subject better than I do. Any help will be much appreciated!

    Sincerely,

    Disgruntled Boyfriend.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Is there a certain area in the car that the disc should be placed?

    Is it placed there?

    Do they have a photo of the disc not being at that place?

    Have they any photos of the clamp on the car?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    the_syco wrote: »
    Is there a certain area in the car that the disc should be placed?

    Is it placed there?

    Do they have a photo of the disc not being at that place?

    Have they any photos of the clamp on the car?

    No as far as I'm aware there is no particular place the permit should be placed. Some of the residents place theirs on the dash, others place it at the back window.

    They said they took photos of her vehicle, but I'm wary about the way they took them. The permit was on the dash, clearly visible, so either they are unaware of what a parking permit looks like, or they have taken the photo in a way which obscures the visibility of the permit. I'd say they took pictures of the car after it was clamped too.

    She lives in a fairly posh place. All of the other cars there are BMW's or Mercs, and they have never been touched. She drives a ****ty 10 year old Citroen. I dunno if they think she's an easy target, a young girl who might not kick up as much of a stink as a person rich enough to own a 13 or 14 Merc.

    I'm just dying to know if I can legally remove the clamp the next time it occurs (I'm sure there'll be a next time). Getting clamped twice in two weeks in the exact same spot leads me to believe they'll try it again, especially as she's paid the two previous fines. If it's within the law to remove the clamp because she is legally entitled to park there, permit on display, then that's grand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭mulbot


    jungleman wrote: »
    No as far as I'm aware there is no particular place the permit should be placed. Some of the residents place theirs on the dash, others place it at the back window.

    They said they took photos of her vehicle, but I'm wary about the way they took them. The permit was on the dash, clearly visible, so either they are unaware of what a parking permit looks like, or they have taken the photo in a way which obscures the visibility of the permit. I'd say they took pictures of the car after it was clamped too.

    She lives in a fairly posh place. All of the other cars there are BMW's or Mercs, and they have never been touched. She drives a ****ty 10 year old Citroen. I dunno if they think she's an easy target, a young girl who might not kick up as much of a stink as a person rich enough to own a 13 or 14 Merc.

    I'm just dying to know if I can legally remove the clamp the next time it occurs (I'm sure there'll be a next time). Getting clamped twice in two weeks in the exact same spot leads me to believe they'll try it again, especially as she's paid the two previous fines. If it's within the law to remove the clamp because she is legally entitled to park there, permit on display, then that's grand.


    Hey,feel sorry for ye,they are the worst crowd of cnuts you will ever deal with-I've had it with them and i posted about it about 2 years ago,i did appeal and got my 128 euro back, however i should say,that in the finest,smallest print they do state the disc should be in the FRONT windscreen-


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    mulbot wrote: »
    Hey,feel sorry for ye,they are the worst crowd of cnuts you will ever deal with-I've had it with them and i posted about it about 2 years ago,i did appeal and got my 128 euro back, however i should say,that in the finest,smallest print they do state the disc should be in the FRONT windscreen-

    Yeah that's where she keeps it. I'm just annoyed in that the law is so vague in relation to private clamping that they feel they can do whatever they want with impunity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I wonder if she could call a solicitor just to run through the lease and the facts and clarify everything.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Have a look at section 113 of the road traffic act.
    Make a complaint to the gards, make sure you get a pulse number.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I wonder if she could call a solicitor just to run through the lease and the facts and clarify everything.

    It may not be in the lease, clamping can be introduced by the directors or by an AGM/EGM if it is found to be necessary.

    OP does your girlfriend own the apartment? If she rents is there a chance the landlord is behind with management fees and her permit has been cancelled. A chat with the management agent would clarify that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I wonder if she could call a solicitor just to run through the lease and the facts and clarify everything.

    She checked the lease, clamping is allowed on the property but not if a vehicle is registered to a person living there, with the correct permit on display!
    Have a look at section 113 of the road traffic act.
    Make a complaint to the gards, make sure you get a pulse number.

    I'll have a read of that now, thanks.
    athtrasna wrote: »
    It may not be in the lease, clamping can be introduced by the directors or by an AGM/EGM if it is found to be necessary.

    OP does your girlfriend own the apartment? If she rents is there a chance the landlord is behind with management fees and her permit has been cancelled. A chat with the management agent would clarify that.

    Nah the management company is a large Dublin based one, they are positively rolling in money. She doesn't own the apartment, she is renting. She paid the full years rent upfront as soon as she moved in. When she rang the management company regarding the illegal clamping of her car, no-one mentioned anything regarding permits being cancelled or anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭wyndham


    113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

    Not a public place so the above legislation is not relevant I would have thought.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Many companies are using this tactic to force arrears out of residents and boost their coffers. They are basically extorting money to avoid court because the majority of the cases for claiming arrears seem to fail. A family member is going through the same thing. I had a nice conversation with a solicitor representing a management company about it a few weeks back. Neither he nor the company were very helpful. Eventually someone in the apartment complex purchased an angle grinder and the clamping stopped.

    If she is clamped again when her permit is on display I'd be calling the Gardaí if they refuse to unclamp. It sounds more like an extortion racket then legitimate clamping.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    If she is clamped again when her permit is on display I'd be calling the Gardaí if they refuse to unclamp. It sounds more like an extortion racket then legitimate clamping.

    Exactly my thoughts. And it seems like she's being targeted as well, which is worse. It's not fair to have a young girl in tears, too scared to park her car. She has a big sign on the windscreen now with an arrow pointing to the permit saying "IS THIS VISIBLE ENOUGH??!!". I wouldn't be surprised if she was clamped again however.

    The Gardaí would view this as a civil matter and refuse to get involved, i would have thought?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Her issue is with her landlord if the apartment came with parking. I strongly suspect it's a fees issue


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    jungleman wrote: »
    Exactly my thoughts. And it seems like she's being targeted as well, which is worse. It's not fair to have a young girl in tears, too scared to park her car. She has a big sign on the windscreen now with an arrow pointing to the permit saying "IS THIS VISIBLE ENOUGH??!!". I wouldn't be surprised if she was clamped again however.

    The Gardaí would view this as a civil matter and refuse to get involved, i would have thought?

    It depends on where you are and who you get. The law just isn't there for them to act without some case specific aspect. When making the call you should clarify that you don't think they are legitimate clampers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,643 ✭✭✭dubrov


    jungleman wrote: »
    S
    Nah the management company is a large Dublin based one, they are positively rolling in money. She doesn't own the apartment, she is renting. She paid the full years rent upfront as soon as she moved in. When she rang the management company regarding the illegal clamping of her car, no-one mentioned anything regarding permits being cancelled or anything.
    .

    Requiring the full year's rent up front would set off alarm bells for me.
    Most likely the landlord is in arrears and has pocketed the cash and isn't paying the managememt fee.

    The Managing agent is ultimately responsible for implementing the clamping. I'd be on to them once a day until you get a proper answer. Let them deal with the clampers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    dubrov wrote: »
    .

    Requiring the full year's rent up front would set off alarm bells for me.
    Most likely the landlord is in arrears and has pocketed the cash and isn't paying the managememt fee.

    The Managing agent is ultimately responsible for implementing the clamping. I'd be on to them once a day until you get a proper answer. Let them deal with the clampers.

    Technically the management agent has no relationship with the tenant. All communication should go via the landlord


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,741 ✭✭✭jd


    jungleman wrote: »



    Nah the management company is a large Dublin based one, they are positively rolling in money. She doesn't own the apartment, she is renting. She paid the full years rent upfront as soon as she moved in. When she rang the management company regarding the illegal clamping of her car, no-one mentioned anything regarding permits being cancelled or anything.

    Are you sure you are not mixing up the rental agent for the landlord, the Managing Agent contracted by the OMC, and the Owners' Management Company itself?
    Who exactly did she ring?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,741 ✭✭✭jd


    They are basically extorting money to avoid court because the majority of the cases for claiming arrears seem to fail. .
    Really? What happens in some cases is the owner is directed to pay some ridiculously small amount on a monthly basis -however the debt is not extinguished.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    jd wrote: »
    Really? What happens in some cases is the owner is directed to pay some ridiculously small amount on a monthly basis -however the debt is not extinguished.

    I spoke to a solicitor who use to represent the management companies in arrears cases. He said they failed in over 90% of their cases because they could not provide evidence of any agreement. The only times they won were when a customer actually tried to engage with them because they were acknowledging the debt by doing so. Even then, the judge would award a small amount in monthly repayments.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Google detinue and clamping.

    I would take an angle grinder to any further clamps.

    Its private land so let them take a civil action if they wish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    I spoke to a solicitor who use to represent the management companies in arrears cases. He said they failed in over 90% of their cases because they could not provide evidence of any agreement

    I'd love to see some evidence of this. The agreement, as you put it, is a Lease contract signed upon purchase of a unit in a managed development. A lease contract is binding, and has many clauses, the first of which is usually based upon payment of the management fee.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 312 ✭✭martomcg


    Get yourself a 48" heavy duty bolt cutters, that should make light work of any lock NCPS put on a clamp, then leave the clamp in another parking spot undamaged.

    Bolt cutters will set you back about €130 which is about the same price as clamp removal. Meaning you'll never have to pay for removal again (unless you get clamped by DCC or any other official government body - in which case pay the fine)

    NCPS are scum and up at Monsanto levels of evil but will never bring you to court unless you mangle/destory a clamp trying to get it off and they have proof.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    jd wrote: »
    Are you sure you are not mixing up the rental agent for the landlord, the Managing Agent contracted by the OMC, and the Owners' Management Company itself?
    Who exactly did she ring?

    The company she deals with manage the properties for whoever the various landlords are, or maybe it's a single landlord who owns all of the apartments and houses in that community. As far as I'm aware, that's who the tenants interact with. They describe themselves as a "property service provider for Owners, Landlords and Tenants". When she notified them of the bullying tactics of NCPS they simply told her it was a matter between her and NCPS, nothing to do with them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,643 ✭✭✭dubrov


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Technically the management agent has no relationship with the tenant. All communication should go via the landlord

    You are right technically but in this case the landlord may be telling porkies.
    The management agent just needs to confirm the reason for the clamping given the tenant is on an approved list of registrations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,741 ✭✭✭jd


    dubrov wrote: »
    The management agent just needs to confirm the reason for the clamping given the tenant is on an approved list of registrations.
    If an Owners' management Company or its agent tells a tenant that their landlord is in arrears/dispute with the OMC it may be a data protection breach. The usual thing an OMC will say to a tenant is "Discuss it with your landlord", with no further info.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    wyndham wrote: »
    113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

    Not a public place so the above legislation is not relevant I would have thought.

    see section 8
    Road Traffic (Amendment) Act, 1984

    Section 113 of the Principal Act is hereby amended—

    (a) by the deletion in subsection (1) of “in a public place”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jd wrote: »
    If an Owners' management Company or its agent tells a tenant that their landlord is in arrears/dispute with the OMC it may be a data protection breach. The usual thing an OMC will say to a tenant is "Discuss it with your landlord", with no further info.
    But surely the registered holder of a parking permit is entitled to know if the permit is valid?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    But surely the registered holder of a parking permit is entitled to know if the permit is valid?

    The tenant may be the user of the permit, but the permit would be issued to the landlord/unit owner. So, again, only the unit owner is entitled to the information, not the permit user.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭mulbot


    you can register your number plate to NCPS on their site even if you're the tenant-this might be helpful to OP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Paulw wrote: »
    The tenant may be the user of the permit, but the permit would be issued to the landlord/unit owner. So, again, only the unit owner is entitled to the information, not the permit user.
    That seems Kafka-esque.

    You cannot reasonably impose a financial penalty on a person without saying why.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    That seems Kafka-esque.

    You cannot reasonably impose a financial penalty on a person without saying why.

    But, they're not. The management company gets (usually) nothing from clamping. The clamping company (NCPS) makes the money from it.

    Management company issue permits to the unit owner, who provides them to the tenant. NCPS don't issue the permits, so don't control that. Management company can invalidate a permit if management fees are not paid, and would then inform the unit owner that the permits are invalid. Normally the landlord doesn't bother to tell tenants, and hence the tenant is clamped.

    Due to data protection laws, the management company can't give such information to the tenant, and usually the landlord doesn't want the hassle of telling the tenant. I have seen it many many times. But, the tenant should then go after the landlord for the clamping release fee. That can work for the tenant.

    We brought in clamping in our development, not to collect fees, but to clamp people from outside our development using our parking spaces. People from nearby houses started to use our apartment parking spaces when they had 2, 3+ cars to park and not enough space. Clamping had minimal impact on collection of fees, since we already had a 90%+ collection rate. When we brought in clamping, soon we had our parking spaces back. We started with signs, then stickers, and finally clamps.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Paulw wrote: »
    But, they're not. The management company gets (usually) nothing from clamping. The clamping company (NCPS) makes the money from it.

    Management company issue permits to the unit owner, who provides them to the tenant. NCPS don't issue the permits, so don't control that. Management company can invalidate a permit if management fees are not paid, and would then inform the unit owner that the permits are invalid. Normally the landlord doesn't bother to tell tenants, and hence the tenant is clamped.

    Due to data protection laws, the management company can't give such information to the tenant, and usually the landlord doesn't want the hassle of telling the tenant. I have seen it many many times. But, the tenant should then go after the landlord for the clamping release fee. That can work for the tenant.

    We brought in clamping in our development, not to collect fees, but to clamp people from outside our development using our parking spaces. People from nearby houses started to use our apartment parking spaces when they had 2, 3+ cars to park and not enough space. Clamping had minimal impact on collection of fees, since we already had a 90%+ collection rate. When we brought in clamping, soon we had our parking spaces back. We started with signs, then stickers, and finally clamps.
    But you don't address the problem described by OP. His friend has a permit, and her car has been clamped. If (and we don't know this) the permit has been invalidated because of non-payment of the management charges, then she has a right to be told that it is not a valid permit.

    She has no right to be told why it is not valid, but she might make her own inferences.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Paulw wrote: »
    I'd love to see some evidence of this. The agreement, as you put it, is a Lease contract signed upon purchase of a unit in a managed development. A lease contract is binding, and has many clauses, the first of which is usually based upon payment of the management fee.

    My understanding was that it wasn't an issue with the agreement itself but an issue providing proof of its existence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Was car parked on double yellow line/no parking sign? Cars in these kind of places are often parked in such places.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    My understanding was that it wasn't an issue with the agreement itself but an issue providing proof of its existence.

    Ah, ok. So, basically poor documentation management by the management agent on behalf of the management company. I'm so glad ours is good at all that paperwork.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    But you don't address the problem described by OP. His friend has a permit, and her car has been clamped. If (and we don't know this) the permit has been invalidated because of non-payment of the management charges, then she has a right to be told that it is not a valid permit.

    None of us know the exact specifics. I certainly don't. It could be that NCPS just keep making a mistake or are not good at what they are doing. It could be for a number of other reasons, including invalid permits.

    The OP needs to chase the landlord, the landlord can then chase the management company/agent, and they can then chase NCPS. It's a right mess. I have sympathy for the resident, but we don't know the situation.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    Okay, her permit is totally 100% valid. There are no cash problems with the landlord or the management company. As far as relations go with the girlfriend and the management/landlord, they are absolutely fine. I found out too that it was her decision to pay the years rent up front, she had the money saved and decided to pay it in one go rather than sit on it and maybe start spending it (as she is won't to do...). Thanks for the suggestions though!

    The problem is with NCPS, that much is 100%. She has emailed them and rang them to see if anyone has bothered to look at her appeals and no-one is answering her. They are an absolute shower. It's like they are untouchable, they can just go around clamping people's cars when they are completely in the wrong! And when they are in the wrong, the victim has to go through the process or submitting an appeal and waiting around for it to be looked at. It's an absolute joke, they are a law onto themselves. Far stronger regulation is needed.

    I've decided that the next time she is clamped (I'm sure there will be a next time), I'm gonna get an angle grinder and bolt cutters and cut the lock off the clamp. I'll drop it around to the nearest Garda station and inform NCPS they can collect it from there.

    They actually make my blood boil. :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    jungleman wrote: »
    Okay, her permit is totally 100% valid. There are no cash problems with the landlord or the management company. As far as relations go with the girlfriend and the management/landlord, they are absolutely fine. I found out too that it was her decision to pay the years rent up front, she had the money saved and decided to pay it in one go rather than sit on it and maybe start spending it (as she is won't to do...). Thanks for the suggestions though!

    The problem is with NCPS, that much is 100%. She has emailed them and rang them to see if anyone has bothered to look at her appeals and no-one is answering her. They are an absolute shower. It's like they are untouchable, they can just go around clamping people's cars when they are completely in the wrong! And when they are in the wrong, the victim has to go through the process or submitting an appeal and waiting around for it to be looked at. It's an absolute joke, they are a law onto themselves. Far stronger regulation is needed.

    I've decided that the next time she is clamped (I'm sure there will be a next time), I'm gonna get an angle grinder and bolt cutters and cut the lock off the clamp. I'll drop it around to the nearest Garda station and inform NCPS they can collect it from there.

    They actually make my blood boil. :mad:

    Why would you tell the guards you cut it off and incriminate yourself? Leave it where they put it after you cut it off


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    Why would you tell the guards you cut it off and incriminate yourself? Leave it where they put it after you cut it off

    I'd like the guards to know what these guys are up to. As far as I'm aware, they are clamping her illegally, as she is legally parked and entitled to be there. I would love for them to have to walk into a Garda station and explain why the clamp was cut off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    jungleman wrote: »
    I'd like the guards to know what these guys are up to. As far as I'm aware, they are clamping her illegally, as she is legally parked and entitled to be there.

    They are not clamping illegally. They are wrongly clamping, but not illegally. They have permission from the property owner (management company), so it's not illegal. But, clamping a vehicle with a valid permit is wrong.

    You cutting off the clamp and leaving it at the Garda station is opening you up to charges of criminal damage and theft.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Paulw wrote: »
    They are not clamping illegally. They are wrongly clamping, but not illegally. They have permission from the property owner (management company), so it's not illegal.

    That's a matter of opinion, one which has not yet been tested in court.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    Paulw wrote: »
    They are not clamping illegally. They are wrongly clamping, but not illegally. They have permission from the property owner (management company), so it's not illegal. But, clamping a vehicle with a valid permit is wrong.

    You cutting off the clamp and leaving it at the Garda station is opening you up to charges of criminal damage and theft.

    That is the whole reason I have started this thread. I can find no legislation or ruling which states that in this case, I would be in the wrong by removing the clamp, or doing so would be illegal. It's so vague it's unbelievable. With the law the way it is, clampers have a free pass to go around and do whatever they want. As long as I can't find any legislation which prohibits the removal of a clamp on a car which is legally parked, I'll give it a go and see what they do. I'm a student, I have no money, I would love to see them come after me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭source


    jungleman wrote: »
    I'd like the guards to know what these guys are up to. As far as I'm aware, they are clamping her illegally, as she is legally parked and entitled to be there. I would love for them to have to walk into a Garda station and explain why the clamp was cut off.

    Yes but intentionally damaging ncps property is still an offence, and doing what you suggest would be a criminal matter, along with your confession to the Gardai would result in a conviction.

    If look towards reporting it under section 113 or as harassment if it continues with no clear cause.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    jungleman wrote: »
    That is the whole reason I have started this thread. I can find no legislation or ruling which states that in this case, I would be in the wrong by removing the clamp, or doing so would be illegal. It's so vague it's unbelievable. With the law the way it is, clampers have a free pass to go around and do whatever they want. As long as I can't find any legislation which prohibits the removal of a clamp on a car which is legally parked, I'll give it a go and see what they do. I'm a student, I have no money, I would love to see them come after me.

    There are two pieces of law that arise in these situations. The first is the offence of interfering with the mechanism of a vehicle. This effectively makes it an offence to apply a clamp to a car as it interferes with the steering. However the offence also give waiver to people who have " lawful authority or reasonable cause". The question then is whether a clamper has this.

    The second piece is Criminal Damage. This makes it illegal to cut off a clamp because it is not your property. However, there is also a defence for those who have "lawful excuse" to damage the item. The argument is that if a clamp is illegal then cutting it off is not.

    Neither of these issues have been tackled in an Irish court above district court level to my knowledge.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    source wrote: »
    Yes but intentionally damaging ncps property is still an offence, and doing what you suggest would be a criminal matter, along with your confession to the Gardai would result in a conviction.

    If look towards reporting it under section 113 or as harassment if it continues with no clear cause.
    This post has been deleted.

    Yeah I see where you're both coming from. The clamp can be removed without damaging it though, it's just a case of cutting through the lock. I'll consult with the Gardaí first before I do anything. I'll explain to them exactly what's going on and see where they think I stand on the matter.

    The only thing is though, would the Gardaí really know who would be in the right or wrong? Because the legislation is so weak, would it boil down to a matter of opinion? One Garda might think one thing and a Garda in a different station could think another?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    There are two pieces of law that arise in these situations. The first is the offence of interfering with the mechanism of a vehicle. This effectively makes it an offence to apply a clamp to a car as it interferes with the steering. However the offence also give waiver to people who have " lawful authority or reasonable cause". The question then is whether a clamper has this.

    The second piece is Criminal Damage. This makes it illegal to cut off a clamp because it is not your property. However, there is also a defence for those who have "lawful excuse" to damage the item. The argument is that if a clamp is illegal then cutting it off is not.

    Neither of these issues have been tackled in an Irish court above district court level to my knowledge.

    From what I discussed in the OP, I am 100% sure I would have grounds for removing the clamp. Surely it's illegal to apply a clamp to a car which is registered to a tennant in a private residential area, where she is parked in a valid space with a valid permit on display.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    This post has been deleted.

    I wasn't thinking of making a complaint just yet, just asking the Gardaí if this scenario happens again where she is clamped, would I be okay to remove the clamp. It'd be up to the girlfriend to make a complaint. She's at the end of her tether with it though, so I'd say that will be the next step.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    jungleman wrote: »
    From what I discussed in the OP, I am 100% sure I would have grounds for removing the clamp. Surely it's illegal to apply a clamp to a car which is registered to a tennant in a private residential area, where she is parked in a valid space with a valid permit on display.


    I would tend to agree. If a car is parked legally, no one has the right to clamp it. Most clampers will not release the clamp until the fee is paid. Why should you have to pay a fee if you are parked legally. You do not have the key to release the device. If the clampers have clamped you illegally and will not release the clamp without receipt of money, cut it off. If this damages the lock or the clamp, the fault lies with the clampers.

    Personally I would be taking action against these lovely people on the grounds of harrassment, time wasting, inconvenience etc.

    I have been clamped illegally before. I had to pay before they would de-clamp. I was in the city without tools. I took fotos, threatened legal action and was refunded and compensated.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement